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My susmension improvement plan - help please

Aussie Dubbin - May 27th, 2010 at 11:22 AM

Hi Guys,
I am in the process of planning my resto and build but want to head down the circuit car/ track day car route (Would like to drive these and home too if achievable). I have just purchased a straight and seemingly rust free 1969 BJ/ SA 1500 beetle (RHD AUS), and want to separate the pan and redo all the suspension and braking mods so I know the car will roll well, stop well and handle as best it can. It (at this stage will be left in full street trim (does anyone know the street weight of this model?)
Reading what I can I am finding a few conflicting ideas about what would be the best way for me to go... I am considering replacing the following parts and would like suggestion about quality or rubber V polyurethane components. Thanks
Steering Donut
Steering Damper
Ball Joints (German)
Tie Rod Ends (German)
Dropped Spindles 2 1/2” (yes or no)
Swayaway adjusters top and bottom (yes or no – as well as dropped sp???) advice here
Super Eccentric Camber adjuster (where to get this and what spec?)
Castor shims (how many and what length bolt replacement?)
(Whats the recommendation for beam needle bearings V Polyurethane)
Beam Dust covers Polyurethane or rubber?
Anti roll bar (is 19mm enough or do I need bigger and adjustable version?)

Rear
New torsion beam outer bushings(4) rub V Poly?

Shocks (what options front and rear (costs???)) Adjustable?

Any cheapish but necessary gearbox improvements while its out would be appreciated
Geabox solid mount rear (yes or no)
Mid mount support (advice here too please)
Shift rod bushing
Shift rod coupling (poly?)
Bearings??? (all round? Are they expensive/ worthwhile or just re grease old ones)

NOW... I am getting to settings of the suspension and there a differences in what works. Here are two different suggestions comments would be great...
__________________________
FRONT
Discs all round
2 Castor shims per side
Extra camber adjustor
Anti RB for lowered car
Adjustable shocks set half way
Bridgestone RE720 185/50/15” Tyres
Set toe at ride height to ½ deg toe in

REAR
Discs all round
Z-bar adjusted to be “on” full time, not Camber compensator
Adjustable shocks set half way
Bridgestone RE720 185/50/15
Set toe at ride height to ½ deg toe in
__________________________
FRONT
Swayaway adjuster top and bottom
2 super eccentric camber adjusters
-2 degrees negative camber
3-5 degrees castor
5mm toe out (6/32 – 7/32”)
18mm (3/4”) Sway bar
195/60/14” tyres
Front 1” higher than rear
Cofab/ KYB gas shocks

REAR
Sway away camber compensator
Cofab/ KYB Gas shocks
-2 degrees Camber
2-3mm (3/32 – 1/8”) Toe in
205/60/14 tyres
Shimmed up Z bar
1’ lower than front
__________________________

Brakes????
Car I fit front callipers to the rear as well and have a proportioning valve to bring the bias into play. Nothing worse than having brakes lock up at the front while the car isn’t actually slowing down (recommendations here for handbrake or options otherwise braking great!)

So hopefully you can see where I am heading and I would love advice from numerous people in the know please. I also read somewhere about polyurethane boots on the front suspension???

Also as I said above I want to separate the pan get it blasted and powder coated and then commit as many improvements as I can so I have a car that rolls and stops and handles well, anything I have missed would be great.

Thanks Aaron

Aussie Dubbin - May 27th, 2010 at 11:23 AM

Sides - May 27th, 2010 at 11:47 AM

Maybe just the one thread would be a nice idea ??? (moderators ???)

Looks like you've been reading Greg Ward's article on aircooled.net.... pretty good starting point, but just realise you'll likely want to tweak/change things based on what sort of motorsport you want to do, your driving style etc... even which tracks you run at are a factor.

Also whereabouts are you if people were going to offer sources for parts ???

My general thoughts would be:
- Urethane as a big YES for bushings, but a big NO for the steering donut as they've been known to come apart prematurely (aka "the red disc of death"). Urethane is noisier tho... especially on the rear "knobbly" bushes (it squeaks). I'd also stick with standard needle bearings up front (personal preference)
- I'd stay away from drop spindles... they're not adjustable, and the front track increase that most drop spindles have can be an issue when it comes to rim and tyre options.
- Ride height close to dead level front and rear... as low as you're comfortable with that's legal and doesn't scrape tyres
- Pick tyres and sizes based on your budget... check the semi slick sizing and costs of the different brands (I love Toyo R888's for an all round motorsport tyre, Dunlop DZ03 Super Softs for short stuff like hillclimb and lap dash)
- KYB shocks are OK, but recently gone to Bilstein's and find I much prefer them
- things like camber, caster and toe settings are easy to change once the car's on the road... don't get too stuck in detail too early

Finally... if you're already going body off, seriously consider converting to IRS while you're there.

Aussie Dubbin - May 27th, 2010 at 01:23 PM

Thanks for the advice, i'm in Adelaide, Converting to IRS... ive seen the gerneral idea... make a jig and cut the tunnel, and push the hornout of the way... But prices??? I've been consideringthisand working on ways to get it done cheaply?????

I was thinking maybe i could buy a donor super cheaply, but don't know how to buy a good box??? i.e. how do i check it's worth the effort soi don't buy a secondhand car and then findout that the box is screwed and then have to replace for a new box... (expensive) is there a good box number to look for???
Cheers

PS sorry about the double post, just looking for lots of opinions. Thanks

Aussie Dubbin - May 27th, 2010 at 01:25 PM

Does anyone have a jig made up in Adelaide they can lend me?

trickysimon - May 27th, 2010 at 04:41 PM

If you are going to all that trouble with the suspension you should probably either find a IRS pan or convert your current one to IRS.
Just my 2c

trickysimon - May 27th, 2010 at 04:51 PM

Oops looks like Sides has already said that on your other thread :spin:

13bwagon - May 27th, 2010 at 06:52 PM

this looks like good info
what about koni shocks good bang for buck??
and dont worry about tyres yet the RE XX and good for street and tyre life but not sure about race
mounts good rubber ones (not greay ones) and the red ones are crap too then add and extra mid mount that will help the nose cone alot

Plipton - May 28th, 2010 at 06:51 AM

Yep I agree with Simon. IRS is the way to go for budget handling - this is what I'm doing on my 54 along with a full set of disks.

If you can afford it, get CSP disks all round and upgrade the master cylinder/renew all the pipes and tubes.

I would just use one pair of camber adjusters as they will give plenty of self centering effect unless you really slam the front and leave the rear high - which would look a bit odd IMO.

If you have unlimited budget go the Mendeola route on the chassis and brakes (but we're talking big $$$ here).

Post some pix!!

Sides - May 28th, 2010 at 08:34 AM

For converting to IRS, unless you're a pretty good welder I'd say get a shop to do it... have you spoken with any or gotten any prices on converting ??? I don't imagine it'd be all that expensive in the scheme of things, and you do want it 100% right.

Re the gearbox well you'd really need to drive it in a car to see what one is like, and even then you can't be sure. Single Side Plate boxes are about the strongest - where the side section of the box near the axle is only removable on the left hand side. Most (all?) SSP boxes have the 3.88 crown wheel & pinion, which is the best for freeway use or big engines (since it's stronger). SSP boxes came standard in L bugs and 76 beam bugs AFAIK, but not sure on the number or codes tho...

Buying a donor super or preferably an L would be one way to go, or you could also just pick up a type 3 rear end like the trike guys do.

:tu:

Oh and about the double post - no biggy - my thinking was that you'll likely get some really good info from different people in here... would be much easier for others to follow/search/etc. if in the one thread.

BiX - May 28th, 2010 at 12:08 PM

13B wagon, I have run konis in my super and found them to be an excellent shock. If tis for a super look at the 944 version, as they are the same code, but come with external adjsutment.

colonel mustard - May 28th, 2010 at 01:03 PM

If you are going to be actually racing, just smash the first box, then get one built to suit your tyre size and engine choice.

Sides - May 28th, 2010 at 01:45 PM

Hmm... maybe go with something a little less destructive than Mustard's suggestion, especially if your current box is working fine.

:rolleyes:

You can definitely stick with your current box if you stay swing axle (and 1500 ratios are a reasonably compromise)... just it won't suit IRS without some serious mods (diff, side covers etc.)

colonel mustard - May 28th, 2010 at 01:57 PM

I just, probs no point spending money on another stock box, if he will be racing....

barls - May 28th, 2010 at 01:57 PM

threads merged.

Sides - May 28th, 2010 at 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by colonel mustard
I just, probs no point spending money on another stock box, if he will be racing....

Yeah possibly true, depending on the swinger vs IRS decision.

Oh and hey... what engine combo are you planning on ???

A good condition stock box can cope fairly well... I did 2 seasons with a stock L bug box and my previous incarnation 1915 (80'ish rwhp) No probs at all - only rebuilt it when I wanted different ratios.

13bwagon - May 29th, 2010 at 06:59 PM

also you race blokes (people)
what toe out or toe in dow you run
spill the beans :yes:
and as CM says run your stock box this it goes then you will know what you want to change

Sides - May 30th, 2010 at 09:51 AM

Well my wheel alignment settings are all in a state of flux after making some changes to the front end.

Last season I was running around 1.5 deg neg camber, 2mm toe out, 1 set of caster shims. Handling was fine, but found the outside front wheel was still going into positive camber at times (seen in photo's as well as the contact patch/wear on the tyres)

Putting in more neg camber found I needed to add toe for the car to turn in nicely... don't know if this is a common trait, or just something with my car or style ???

Anyway at Wakefield last weekend I was running close to 3 deg neg camber and 4mm toe out... both the car and tyres seemed to like it, and the handling was nice and neutral.

Yesterday was to be a test of those settings on a real handling circuit (Carnell), but it got rained out unfortunately...

Craig Torrens - May 30th, 2010 at 10:37 AM

Setting up a car isn't about copying other peoples settings.........its about driving it and then developing the car to your style (although natural 'drivers' will tend to change their style to suit the car)

setting your toe in/toe out will depend on SO many factors with regards to the rest of the suspension setup, as well as the type of track the car is going to be run on.

Just remember that car setup is completely different if you have a LSD or standard diff.............also tyre choice will dramatically influence the settings and parts needed to make the car handle

Start reading and learning !

http://aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=83355&page=1#pid776075

Aussie Dubbin - May 30th, 2010 at 11:55 AM

Thank craig. I read that page with interest bt as i am starting with a body off suspension resto i am looking for more specific car setup suggestions. I suppose once i am driving that page will mean more ( i respect the great knowledge you ave provided).

So to recap i am basically hearing that rubber is better than poly most times, and an adjustable front beam will be better than dropped spindles?? do i have to worry about the new ball joints i am planning on buying? suggestions are there still lowered ball joints ? are they any good?
Do i need to worry about bump steer?
Also who has converted a S/A to IRS and what did you do? whats the cheapest way to buy parts... donor or s/h parts supplier... whats the go with Type 3 or 944 parts too. Cheap suggestions willl be good, the A Arms have a bearing too is that a servicable part or do i need to find a 'good' one?

Thanks

PS craig i have been readng about your 5 bar support... i don't really want to splash out the 500 odd bucks for your rear bar kt but as funds come available i would like to... do you sell just the tabs so i could weld them in place somehow before i paint the pan??? suggestions

cnfabo - May 30th, 2010 at 12:09 PM

he dubbin, im about to convert my swinga to IRS, second hand i got, trailing arms , twin spring plates, torsion bars,all off a recked type 3. all the bearings and bushings in the arms are servicable...

you can cut the irs pivot bracket off the type 3 rear end, but too much stuffing around..

off CIP1.COM I got the pivot boxes $40 US and urethane bushings..

i think the bigger torsion bars you have to buy new...