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 2443TT
A.k.a.: Ian
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| posted on September 24th, 2005 at 07:13 PM |
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Wibble's hybrid engine
Well i've started to get a little more serious with Wibble's wrx headded vw hybrid engine.
After a lot of measuring, a bit of design with autocad and some cardboard templates i've finally got a head-stud conversion system that will work.
The aluminium head plates that block off the water cooling galeries and oil feed to the head were CNC machined at my work. The 12mm steel stud
adapters I had water jet cut.
The plan is to use 8 x 10mm high tensile bolts to torque the stud plates down to 25ft-lb. Then 6 12mm high tensile bolts come through the head plates
from the bottom of the plate to bolt on the wrx heads to 30ft-lb.
The cam drive system will involve machining up some new hubs that are longer to account for the extended offset needed to get the timing belt to drive
off a pully in front of the standard power pully. It will actually work out pretty well as the intake and exhaust cam timing will be fully
adjustable. Save to say i've learnt a lot in the past few weeks about how cam timing works in a 4 stroke engine. Its been like craming for an
exam.
Lubrication for the OHC heads will come from what is normally the full flow oil return. The oil return from the heads will return to the sump via
fittings that will end up screwed into two of the pushrods tube holes. The other two will (each side will be blocked off).
So... Here we see wibble's shiny new empi bubbletop aluminium case. 10mm head studs, 94mm barrels, clearanced and full flowed, some wrx heads
courtasy of Reub, and a pair of 94mm barrels
Here is the CNC machined and waterjet cut head and stud plates.
This is the barrels slipped into the case with the head stud and alloy head plate slipped on.
This is a pic of one head sitting on top of the whole lot.
And again from another angle.
As mentioned earlier, the eventual goal of this engine is 12:1 compression, 7300 RPM, and 200+ naturally aspirated HP. 2180cc (78.4x94).
The prototype is using turbo heads so the compression will be closer to 9:1, but that will do for a prototype. The wrx heads are definatly a lot more
suited to a forced induction application. The potential for the prototype would be amazing with a pair of GTR R33 turbos's on it. I'd figure
400-450 HP would be an achievable figure if we got the flywheel wedgemated.
As for whats next, i've got to trial fit the other side of the engine and then buy some high tensile bolts to trial bolt it all together, which is a
project for next weekend.
As for my car, its stripped again and is having the flaws and a few scratches fixed. Should be at show quality in 3 weeks, just in time for a car
show on the 29th of October.
I'll keep you all posted as to the progress of both projects.
Cheers,
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reub
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| posted on September 24th, 2005 at 07:48 PM |
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Will be wild DUDE.....you guys are nuts!
Keep it up, will be interesting to see running.
Reub
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Doug Sweetman
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| posted on September 24th, 2005 at 08:39 PM |
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Choice ! nice stuff, this is one thread I will be watching with great interest.....
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jvl054
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| posted on September 24th, 2005 at 09:38 PM |
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Interesting project Ian! Just a question,have these heads had any porting or new Timing sticks inserted?...JVLRacing
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seagull
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| posted on September 24th, 2005 at 11:13 PM |
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Man , thats the go !
Looking for that special lady : PM me for coffee & cake
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2443TT
A.k.a.: Ian
Fahrvergnugen
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| posted on September 25th, 2005 at 11:40 AM |
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The heads are stock for the moment which will do for a prototype. Later when the heads are changed to naturally aspirated EJ20 heads, they'll be
ported to the limit.
Cams are stock too for the moment. The timing will be adjustable with the new cam pully's. The turbo cams don't have a lot of lift at all. I'd
imagine the naturally aspirated ones will be a little different.nn[ Edited on 25-9-2005 by iswinkels ]
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jvl054
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| posted on September 25th, 2005 at 01:40 PM |
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Okay:thumb...If you go back to a Turbo set up you will need to flow does heads and bigger timing sticks accept 300+400hps...especially with big turbo
set ups.JVLRacing
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2443TT
A.k.a.: Ian
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| posted on September 25th, 2005 at 05:51 PM |
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This is a 100% naturally aspirated design. IMO a turbo vw engine would be fine running on a VW configuration cylinder head. The reason for the
development of a 4 valve OHC configuration engine is to allow more more revs and airflow.
Turbo engines don't need to rev to make good torque and hp, and all a very good and strong turbo engine needs is lightly ported and tidied up intakes
and opened up exhausts to get that hot gas out faster.
Today I sorted out the other side of the engine. I'll be picking up head studs this week so I can bolt it all together, and start working on the
timing belt drive and tension system.
I still need to source a crankshaft timing pully and a spring style timingbelt tensioner...
Here's another pic..
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jvl054
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| posted on September 25th, 2005 at 07:38 PM |
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mmmmHave fun:thumbJVLRacing
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Baja Wes
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| posted on September 26th, 2005 at 10:44 AM |
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You should use suby cylinders too, then you don't have the distortion / cooling / blow-by issues of the VW cylinders.
I guess you have to draw the line somewhere though, otherwise you'd just end up with a suby engine...
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MikeM
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| posted on September 26th, 2005 at 11:29 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Baja Wes
You should use suby cylinders too, then you don't have the distortion / cooling / blow-by issues of the VW cylinders.
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But they don't have fins so it couldn't be air cooled? or could it?
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2443TT
A.k.a.: Ian
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| posted on September 26th, 2005 at 12:43 PM |
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You'd have to completely re-engineer the block to allow the cylinders to line up, fit square and allow water to go thru it, or as wes might say
next.... use a suby block too 
The suby cylinders are only 92mm too, so we'd loose 100cc in displacement.
The heads are remaining water cooled, and the cylinders will be air cooled like that engine from the uk. I don't want to go re-inventing too many
wheels...
nn[ Edited on 26-9-2005 by iswinkels ]
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Baja Wes
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| posted on September 26th, 2005 at 05:57 PM |
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Maybe you could just put a porsche fan shroud and set of 48IDA's on a suby motor, and then tell people it's air cooled...
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pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
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| posted on September 26th, 2005 at 06:14 PM |
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I think he just wants have a foot in both camps. :P
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2443TT
A.k.a.: Ian
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| posted on September 26th, 2005 at 08:42 PM |
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Yes it will be air cooled using a porsche style setup, but fabricated from aluminium sheet.
The first time it will be started it will be using a vertex magneto ignition and will be being fed with a pair of 44 idf's, which are way to small
for the engine to breath, but will be enough to allow us to prove the cam drive system. depending on how well it works out, the version with naturally
aspirated heads will run wolf efi with quad 50mm throttle bodies.
But i've got to walk before I can run. I need to track down a crankshaft timing bely pulley before I can go any further with the development.
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pete wood
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| posted on September 26th, 2005 at 09:13 PM |
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Are you thinking of selling it as a kit in the long run?
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2443TT
A.k.a.: Ian
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| posted on September 26th, 2005 at 10:48 PM |
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I can't think that far ahead! Its possible, but making the custom crank pully will be time consuming. I've come up with a design to machine it out
of billet aluminium and its not going to be realy cheap at all. To make it a viable kit i'd have to get everything made in china. I need to get one
working prototype first. I might just make the plans available freely if it all works and isn't cost effective to produce as a kit.
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wibble
A.k.a.: Warren Way
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| posted on September 27th, 2005 at 08:13 PM |
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I want it! oh hang on..........
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ruckus
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| posted on September 27th, 2005 at 09:33 PM |
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Man I'm sooo pumped to see how this works out. Giddyup Aussie know-how!
Keep up the good work mate.
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Doug Sweetman
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| posted on September 28th, 2005 at 10:38 AM |
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Wibble, thats just nasty......
This is going to be one truly evil manx buggy once you boys are done with it.......
Keep up the good work !
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YIOughta
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| posted on September 28th, 2005 at 10:50 AM |
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You could probably write my engine building knowhow on the back of a postage stamp with a texta, but im impressed with the concept of this donk and
the obvious knowhow behind its development! good to see 
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2443TT
A.k.a.: Ian
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| posted on September 29th, 2005 at 08:42 PM |
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Well today the machine shop guys at work made me a timing belt drive pully, so i've been able to start nutting out how to drive the cams, change the
pully offsets and drive the fan/alternator. Dam its good to work for an engineering company sometimes!
The system will use two idlers and one tensioner. The idler on the right will drive a v belt pully which inturn drives the alternator.
It looks a little abstract at the moment, but it should work.
The next step is making the cam gears. And here's some pictures!
[ Edited on 29-9-2005 by iswinkels ]
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Adolph
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| posted on September 29th, 2005 at 09:17 PM |
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Hi Ian
I had the same idea some time ago. I wanted to fit it to a Type 4, but could not find heads for the measurements.
Can you tell me how far the bore centers are from each other.
I planned to bolt the stud plate against the block, and have them machined so that the cylinders would locate and seal against it (that would make the
block very strong). I would have shortened the cylinders by the same amount as the thickness of the studplate, or until my deck height is right. I
would then have fastened the heads with (6) 12mm bolts (per side).
I think your setup looks great, and with a bit of work, would also work great.
Good luck with your project.
Hermann
2000cc turbo type 4, dragster (325Kw)
2714cc no turbo, no gas, street bug (140Kw)
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ruckus
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| posted on September 29th, 2005 at 10:53 PM |
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Wow that looks complex. Will the pulleys easily handle the extra load? (sorry if this is a dumb question)
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2443TT
A.k.a.: Ian
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| posted on September 30th, 2005 at 06:57 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Adolph
Hi Ian
I had the same idea some time ago. I wanted to fit it to a Type 4, but could not find heads for the measurements.
Can you tell me how far the bore centers are from each other.
I planned to bolt the stud plate against the block, and have them machined so that the cylinders would locate and seal against it (that would make the
block very strong). I would have shortened the cylinders by the same amount as the thickness of the studplate, or until my deck height is right. I
would then have fastened the heads with (6) 12mm bolts (per side).
I think your setup looks great, and with a bit of work, would also work great.
Good luck with your project.
Hermann
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The EJ20 heads are the same as a type 1 head. I think that UK engine is a type 4, and I think its using EJ22 heads.
I was originally going to plate each side of the block too, and then use longer rods to increase the rod ratio and restore the deck height. But there
was a problem with this. The number 3 cylinder is very close to the rear of the engine, and there is no room for the plate to support the rear two
subie head studs.
The new pullys i'm making will be able to support the load just fine. The belt tensioner will maintain the belt tension to subaru specs.
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Adolph
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| posted on September 30th, 2005 at 09:34 AM |
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"The number 3 cylinder is very close to the rear of the engine, and there is no room for the plate to support the rear two subie head studs."
I think that is something you would only find out when you have the heads in hand.
Good luck
Hermann
2000cc turbo type 4, dragster (325Kw)
2714cc no turbo, no gas, street bug (140Kw)
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bluebaja
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| posted on October 2nd, 2005 at 05:54 PM |
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Very nice! Its great to see people thinking outside the norm.
Could you run the alternator from the timing belt (changing the alternator pully) it would be like a mini glimer type setup.
How heay are the subi heads compared to vw?
Any more pics?
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11CAB
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| posted on October 2nd, 2005 at 06:26 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by bluebaja
Very nice! Its great to see people thinking outside the norm.
Could you run the alternator from the timing belt (changing the alternator pully) it would be like a mini glimer type setup.
How heay are the subi heads compared to vw?
Any more pics?
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Thats not very practical if the alternator needs to come off for any reason, having to reset the timing belt
65 Meyers Manx
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2443TT
A.k.a.: Ian
Fahrvergnugen
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| posted on October 2nd, 2005 at 07:20 PM |
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A few days ago I scored a set of 4 timing belt pully's and a set of tensioners and idle pullys so this has allowed me to work out exactly how the
timing belt system needs to go together.
For the moment the dual pulleys on each cam are bolted on, but they will be welded together and then machined back to where they need to be to allow
the belt to run squarely on the pulleys. I also got a 4.5" power steering v-belty pully to drive the alternator from the wrecker.
I've made up a template for the alloy backing plate that holds the tensioners etc, and should have it bolted to the block by the end of the week if I
have time to finish it.
Yes the idler pully that drives the alternator would have to be removed to replace the alternator v belt. I don't see this as a big issue though as
once its setup its just a case of painting marks on the pullys and belt as locators. Any which way that would happen less frequently than valve
clearances have to be checked.
Here's a pic of the revised timing belt drive system but still with a 5" pully.
Cheers,
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wibble
A.k.a.: Warren Way
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| posted on October 4th, 2005 at 08:21 PM |
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Holey crap batman! so how's a simple person like myself gonna maintain this thing, dude you are never moving out!!!
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