| [ Total Views: 1136 | Total Replies: 15 | Thread Id: 67774 ] |
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 Sides
A.k.a.: Dave Sidery
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| posted on February 27th, 2008 at 03:55 PM |
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Trans oil ?
With the new box I've now got in Jezebel, I figure should think a bit more about the oil that goes into it.
Up until now I've always used Mobil SAE90 GL-4 without a prob, but since this isn't exactly a standard box internally (Albins straight cuts and a
Quaife) even though I have a drum of the stuff that might not be the best way to go.
Although it's not going to be worked as hard as say the box in a drag car, with hillclimbs I'm still not exactly going to be driving it normally...
3k launches, 7k in gears etc.
What's the thinking ???
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68AutoBug
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 posted on February 27th, 2008 at 04:19 PM |
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Synthetic transaxle Oil
Castrol Syntrax 75x/90 extreme pressure gear oil [GL5]
Recommended for Porsche , alfa, Audi, seat, Peugeot
it may be used in place of Castrol Multitrax in all High performance applications..
Fully synthetic transaxle and manual transmission fluid...
cheers
Lee
- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
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 vw54
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| posted on February 27th, 2008 at 04:53 PM |
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stick with the standard Mobil 90 grade
we use same in the Vintage drag car with Albins gears and all the other stuff
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on February 27th, 2008 at 05:41 PM |
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I have been using and recommending your 'favourite brand' of 80W90 hypoid(EP) gear oil
even though the type one tranny is not a hypoid crownwheel and pinion.
I have even tried ATF but was never as happy as with the thicker EP grades.
I am hoping to try some of the ACE air cooled oil that he makes for VW's trannys soon.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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vw54
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| posted on February 27th, 2008 at 06:24 PM |
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| Quote: |
I am hoping to try some of the ACE air cooled oil that he makes for VW's trannys soon.
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Dave who is this and what grade r they making ????
I dont think the ATF would be thick enough as is basicly 10 grade and most gearboxes require a heavy grade as in the stock 80 / 90 grade hypoide
i presume the 10 grade wouldnt STICK to the gears as its more vicous did u find this or no probs at all ??? interesting as its used in Autos
but i suspose this is to allow flow thoughtout the valve bodies and chambers etc etc
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68AutoBug
A.k.a.: Lee Noonan
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| posted on February 27th, 2008 at 06:31 PM |
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Back in 80s i had a Mitsubishi L300 wagon
and Mitsubishi put out a bulletin for people having problems changing gears with the gearbox cold..
the oil to use... ATF...
Which I did...
and it went for 15 years that i know of...
Lee
- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on February 27th, 2008 at 07:00 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by vw54
| Quote: |
I am hoping to try some of the ACE air cooled oil that he makes for VW's trannys soon.
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Dave who is this and what grade r they making ????
I dont think the ATF would be thick enough as is basicly 10 grade and most gearboxes require a heavy grade as in the stock 80 / 90 grade hypoide
i presume the 10 grade wouldnt STICK to the gears as its more vicous did u find this or no probs at all ??? interesting as its used in Autos
but i suspose this is to allow flow thoughtout the valve bodies and chambers etc etc
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ACE makes a few different engine and gearbox oils especially for Volksies.
They advertise in VWMA and John, who formulated the products, races a volksy in hill climbs and sprints.
He is based in VIC.
He gets on here as Brutus I think.
The ATF worked well in the box, but as torque increased over the years,
I found a little more wear in the gears and felt the tiny reduction in friction was not really worth it.
Yes quite a few different big companies use it in their manual trannys.
I thought I would try some of his products since he did it for Volksies,
and I don't think any of the other brands could care less.
Plus being the chemist, I am sure he could use and benefit from some feed back.
Doesn't seem to be any more expensive than other quality brands either.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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MikeM
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| posted on February 27th, 2008 at 09:11 PM |
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I read somewhere there was an issue with using GL5 oils with volksies as the additives affected the copper in the syncros or something like that.
Article recomended to use a GL4 oil. Not sure it's got any merit or not.
Oh I found the article.
http://www.ratwell.com/technical/GearOil.html
Interesting Reading
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Sides
A.k.a.: Dave Sidery
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| posted on February 27th, 2008 at 10:30 PM |
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OK, so it at least sounds like my current GL4 isn't going to be completely wrong (I've also had hammered into me for ever to not use GL5 in
volksies, but again not sure why). And yeah, that article is some interesting reading Mike.
Be interested to see how the ACE oils go in your hands Dangerous - might be worth the switch down the road.
Appreciate all the advice guys - definitely a lot happier than if I'd just gone with what the labels say.
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BiX
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| posted on February 29th, 2008 at 09:16 AM |
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I think I am running full synthetic in my box dave. Only did it after a full rebuild though.
I have no sympathy for my car, only the wallet that pays for it!
Go hard or go home!!!!
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BiX
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| posted on February 29th, 2008 at 01:44 PM |
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jsut a thought, will the grade of oil affect the LSD in any way?
I have no sympathy for my car, only the wallet that pays for it!
Go hard or go home!!!!
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on February 29th, 2008 at 02:23 PM |
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not so much with quaife.
ZF may be a different story being a clutch type.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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68AutoBug
A.k.a.: Lee Noonan
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| posted on February 29th, 2008 at 08:19 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by dangerous
not so much with quaife.
ZF may be a different story being a clutch type.
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LSD with clutch plates have their own special oil
usually...
it cannot be a friction modified type
as its too slippery for the clutches...
Synthetic oil lasts a long time...
if You pull Your gearbox apart to check wear etc...
its not worth the High dollars to use it.... IMHO
like using Synthetic engine oil in VW engines
as its only going to be there for a short time
it makes it too expensive...
unless You have a spin on oil filter...
Lee
- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
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BRUTUS
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| posted on March 1st, 2008 at 01:16 AM |
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I didn't really want to get involved, as there are more opinions and 1/2 truths around than there are products!
The question of which gear oil to use seems to be as difficult as "which engine oil"!
There are so many articles on the Net about oils. I think they mostly should be treated with CAUTION as many are hearsay & contain regurgitated
info.
You should consider:
1. What the manufacturer recommended.
2. What you know about the condition of the transaxle. ie. Is it noisy/hard to change gear/older/sloppy/new etc.
3. What your mechanic/installer/rebuilder recommends or requires, eg for his guarantee.
4. What your usage/habits dictate in terms of longevity-protection-quality properties. If you want to leave it in & 'never' have to change it
(as the late Manuals say you can), you couldl benefit from a top quality, dearer "Brand Name" GL-5 Full Synthetic. If you change it often (as per
earlier VW Manuals), a lower spec., cheaper GL-4 mineral might do. It is a very good idea to change the oil regualry every 2 years, reagardless of
milage or usage, or the fact that later manuals say you don't need to. The additives will decompose with use, time, temperature. If you do great
distances, change it as per the earlier manuals distance requirments (eg. 15 000 or 20 000mi) if that comes up first. For racing you may want to
change it much sooner, either for the best protection or to check for wear/damage.
5. What your usage dicates in tems of performance. The prime consideration here is viscosity characteristics. eg. For heavy loads, slow speeds,
higher temperatures, a thicker oil may be better. For racing/high speeds you maust go as thin as possible. Low viscosity means less friction &
more efficiency, which is why formula vees often use ATF. (I would not use ATF in a heavier or full-bodied car, or for drag racing. It isn't hypoid
oil, & doesn't have any signifcant EP properties.)
I've done some testing & collection of data on a few products lately, and have changed my mind a bit. We were thinking of making a fully
protected (ie heavy duty) GL-5 "racing grade" low-visc. mineral oil based trans oil. Thsi is becasue there are only GL-4's available in the
thinner viscs, which are desirable for racing. We decided that better performance will be obtained from a full synthetic GL-5 than from a thinner
mineral based one. The synthetic is significantly thinner at low to moderate temperatures.
If you look up oil makers' websites you can find viscosity data, look at the visc's at 40C & 100C. If anyone would like some viscosity data I
could send them a table with some in due course, but i haven't finished compiling it. For short events the visc at 40C should be more relevant but
for long road races or rallies, go by the 100C figure.
QPL, the maker of ACEoils, currently has a conventional mineral GL-5/GL-4 80W-90 (ACE 90) which passes ASTM D130 for Cu corrosion; and a full
synthetic GL-5 75W-90 (ACE 75). We recommend the ACE90 for road/general use, and now recommend the ACE 75 for rally/hillclimb/drag use.. I always
have used 80W-90 GL5 gear oil in all our VWs. All the syncros have worked perfectly, though I've noticed the difficult shifting when cold that is
supposed to reduce with a synthetic. I am now progressively changing to ACE 75 (full synth.) for performance reasons for Brutus and better fuel
economy for the work/shopping cars.
Sorry I'm not familiar with Quaife. LSD's with cones or clutches must use LSD oil, not normal hypoid. Conventional diffs can use LSD oil
though.
SAE 90 and 80W-90 are the same as far as I know. SAE 90 mineral will also meet 80w. 80W-90 is not a multigrade in that it doesn't have viscosity
modifier in it.
ACE 30 & 40 oils: specifically engineered for your Air Cooled VW
delivered (free del.) throughout Yarra Valley / Ranges, & Gippsland areas. Also ACE 20, 50 & 90.
FOR SALE: ACE 30, 40 etc. Oil formulations & Trade-names.
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on March 1st, 2008 at 07:38 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Sides
Although it's not going to be worked as hard as say the box in a drag car, with hillclimbs I'm still not exactly going to be driving it normally...
3k launches, 7k in gears etc.
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you should be doing 5k launches........3k you're not even in the cams power range.
back to the topic
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Sides
A.k.a.: Dave Sidery
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| posted on March 1st, 2008 at 10:27 PM |
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Appreciate all your info Brutus - I'm already trying to consider most of those angles (I think), but wanted to see what other's experience was
saying.
So far in the decision mix I have:
- Quaife (diff) recommend a full synth 75W/90 GL5 for their diffs (Silkolene SilkTran). They also strongly recommend against using ATF.
- Albins (gears) don't have a definite recommendation other than synthetic GL4/5 (they promote RedLine oils)
- Berg (syncros) recommend 75W/90 synthetic.
- it's a near new box (ex JVL), not really run in enough to be sure of shifting even tho feels OK at moment
- longevity wise it definitely won't stay in more than 2 years, probably change out each year (call it paranoia on my part)
- usage is mainly hillclimbs, but also sprints and some longer road/nav events
Guess I'll do some more research and see where it leads, and then post back.
Oh and Craig - yeah, I know - each time I've seen Stan he's telling me to get up it more. I'm trying to - bit of a mind thing with me still, but
with the stronger drive-train maybe it'll be 4k launches this year...
VWDCQ vice pres & web dude - vwdcqinc.org.au
Join a car club - get car peeps
My toys
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01 New Beetle - gf's car, but I turn the spanners |
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