| [ Total Views: 3806 | Total Replies: 26 | Thread Id: 98950 ] |
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 Birdman
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| posted on September 25th, 2012 at 08:39 PM |
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Why dont we name and shame?
I just read another thread about a crappy shop doing crappy work. Read another one the other day about a crappy body shop.
My question is why dont we name and shame???
Legal BS ???
The samba has a whole section dedicated to seller feedback where the idiots get identified and weeded out.
Makes for a funny read, them yanks get agro.
When I was a kid i took my first beetle to a shop to get the mechanicals put back together with some parts from a second donor car. When i went to
pick up my pan my donor was sitting in the sand with no front beam!!! The shop owner told me that someone jumped the fence and stole my beam over the
weekend. So this poor kid lost his donor beetle because i couldn't move it anymore.
I'll man up and say it was beetle factory in erina on the nsw central coast. I beleive they closed down years ago.
So am i gonna get sued now?
C'mon guys, name the bastards so they can wither and die and our hobby is the better for it.
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 Bizarre
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| posted on September 25th, 2012 at 08:48 PM |
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Because libel laws are very different here and administrators of forums can be held accountable for the posts of members.
We have already had issues here in the past and don't need to go there again.
USofA has different laws.
Futue te ipsum!!!
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 MISS VDUB
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| posted on September 25th, 2012 at 09:11 PM |
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Plus keep in mind there are 2 sides to every story and misinformed people are quick to hop on the bandwagon about something they know nothing about or
only one side of the story.
It can ruin the reputations of people and business's who are actually completely innocent. No one is perfect that's for sure, but to name and shame
without full details from all involved is dangerous territory and can not only crumble online forums but also tear the VW community apart.
1963 Single Cab Ute: "El Concreto"
1962 Baja Beetle: "Peanut"
1968 Porsche 912 SWB: "Pip"
1972 Kombi Snail: "The Snail"
2012 Skoda Octavia Scout: "Scout"
2016 Scirocco R: "Rocco"
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Birdman
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| posted on September 25th, 2012 at 09:11 PM |
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Yeah thought so Bizarre.
It's a shame we have those laws here as its this is the type of thing i beleive forums should be about.
Shame
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LUFTMEISTER
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| posted on September 25th, 2012 at 09:20 PM |
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You can always contact the poster for details.
Customer service is not dead in Australia.
Always after HAZET & MATRA & VW factory tools
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Birdman
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| posted on September 25th, 2012 at 09:23 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by MISS VDUB
Plus keep in mind there are 2 sides to every story and misinformed people are quick to hop on the bandwagon about something they know nothing about or
only one side of the story.
It can ruin the reputations of people and business's who are actually completely innocent. No one is perfect that's for sure, but to name and shame
without full details from all involved is dangerous territory and can not only crumble online forums but also tear the VW community apart.
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I understand what you are saying miss vee dub but the business can always respond and defend themselves. The truth always comes out, particulary when
the complainer turns out to be a pratt.
Anyhoo, moot point as bizarre stated.
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MISS VDUB
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| posted on September 25th, 2012 at 09:27 PM |
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This forum is not a public shit slinging platform and if there are issues, they need to be dealt with between the business and the actual customer,
not other owners of business's seen to be in competition or keyboard mechanics who amplify the situation with ill informed comments. As you can see
its not worth it for all involved and needs to be dealt professionally in person, not plastered on forums leaving those who run them open to
litigation.
1963 Single Cab Ute: "El Concreto"
1962 Baja Beetle: "Peanut"
1968 Porsche 912 SWB: "Pip"
1972 Kombi Snail: "The Snail"
2012 Skoda Octavia Scout: "Scout"
2016 Scirocco R: "Rocco"
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h
A.k.a.: Towely BuMpEr KING! ILLegal ALIEN on a roadtrip
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| posted on September 25th, 2012 at 09:48 PM |
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^ 
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Birdman
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| posted on September 25th, 2012 at 09:57 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by MISS VDUB
This forum is not a public shit slinging platform and if there are issues, they need to be dealt with between the business and the actual customer,
not other owners of business's seen to be in competition or keyboard mechanics who amplify the situation with I'll informed comments. As you can see
its not worth it for all involved and needs to be dealt professionally in person, not plastered on forums leaving those who run them open to
litigation.
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OK then, how about my situation.
Did someone jump and 8 foot fence with a giant breaker bar and socket set, remove my beam, then jump back over the fence with it? or did the shop
steal from me?
All im saying is SOME people deserved to be named and shamed.
Definition of forum
noun (plural forums)
1. a meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged:
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barls
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| posted on September 25th, 2012 at 10:03 PM |
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Also I think you will find this policy has come from Andrew who owns the forum.
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MISS VDUB
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| posted on September 25th, 2012 at 10:10 PM |
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Views, means more than one. Not a one sided defamation of character.
Sorry but I couldn't make much sense of what you wrote above, but if you have issues discuss them with the person who has created that issue in the
first place. Sympathy from other forum members doesn't solve a problem but create a bigger problem in itself at times. A touchy subject which won't
be discussed here. We have a private message function if you wish to discuss anything like this further.
This forum has already been threatened before and very nearly closed, please don't air dirty laundry which names and shames people on a public forum.
There is a difference between awareness and name and shame without all the facts. The forum is not a platform for vigilantes.
1963 Single Cab Ute: "El Concreto"
1962 Baja Beetle: "Peanut"
1968 Porsche 912 SWB: "Pip"
1972 Kombi Snail: "The Snail"
2012 Skoda Octavia Scout: "Scout"
2016 Scirocco R: "Rocco"
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vanderaj
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| posted on September 25th, 2012 at 10:49 PM |
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If you don't like the lack of free speech and crappy protection of your consumer rights, look up your local member's phone number and talk to them.
Expect no movement - I have read that a few have used defamation settlements to fund pools and school fees. Eventually all pollies will be voted out
and many will return to law as a profession. So really really really unlikely to change that law.
Defamation cases can cost > $100k, which is great news for fee hungry lawyers, but bad news for the rest of us.
Pretty much expect this thread to go away if it starts naming businesses or individuals. The company might be gone, but the people involved are likely
to still be around. Although the forum content is hosted in the US, you are most likely and I am not a US citizen, so I am subject to all laws here,
just like any of you.
If I get a take down notice, I will comply immediately. We often take immediate action by ourselves if we become aware of such posts, particularly
post Gutnick vs Dow. Plus, I remind folks that our long standing policy is that if you threaten AVDS or staff with a lawsuit or sick your real (or
most likely bush "IANAL, but...") lawyers on us, that's immediate and permanent banning. I have a zero tolerance of legal threats, as it's a crime
against our community. I will work with you if you think you've been wronged, but sicking us with legal letters or threats is unAustralian and will
not be tolerated.
So if you want to slag someone off, take it up with the people involved and get it resolved. There are helpers you can access like the small claims
tribunals in most states, legal aid, and so on. But don't do it here, please.
thanks
Andrew
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68AutoBug
A.k.a.: Lee Noonan
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| posted on September 25th, 2012 at 11:47 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Bizarre
Because libel laws are very different here and administrators of forums can be held accountable for the posts of members.
We have already had issues here in the past and don't need to go there again.
USofA has different laws.
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I agree..
its not a simple thing although it sounds simple enough..
but it can lead to the end of the forum and I'm sure None of Us want that..
People can PM You about companies etc..
and that is done often
LEE
- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
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waveman1500
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| posted on September 26th, 2012 at 12:06 AM |
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Online feedback is both a powerful and dangerous thing. The ability to amplify a single person's views can be misleading.
Everyone has bad days, and no matter what you are doing, sometimes there will be mistakes. Every car manufacturer makes lemons, and every workshop
probably completely ruins an engine every now and then. The true test of the company is how well they stand behind their product, but even with the
best of warranty support, the customer will be upset and will often want to vent online.
Now, imagine that a company makes a great product and 99.9% of customers are completely satisfied. 0.1% of customers experience total product failure
and post online about it. If you want to buy this product, you might search online for user reviews. I guarantee that the reviews you find online will
be heavily biased towards the negative, and that they may even put you off buying the product. Who really wins from this situation? You are given
misleading and non-representative information and hence decide not to purchase the product. You miss out on a good product. The manufacturer loses a
sale. The only people who are slightly happy are the writers who vented. Even then, that will not really make them happy.
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vwo60
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| posted on September 26th, 2012 at 07:51 AM |
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Its really quite simple in my case, as i work over sea's i required a new gearbox to be put into my early car when i was away with the steps as
follows
1/ get quote.
2/ accept quote.
3/ give the car to the person involved.
4/ pick up car and pay for work in cash with receite.
5/ break clutch cables at about a rate of one a month.
6/ ask person to look at the job and fix the issue.
7/ told to get lost.
As i have not named any body i have not slandered the person, it's all about being aware that most people doing work out there in ever service
industry does not have your best interest at heart and to be aware before you have any work done, if you email me i might tell you who they are. i
will just keep telling people when i speak to them to steer clear of this person.
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matberry
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| posted on September 26th, 2012 at 08:34 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by waveman1500
Online feedback is both a powerful and dangerous thing. The ability to amplify a single person's views can be misleading.
Everyone has bad days, and no matter what you are doing, sometimes there will be mistakes. Every car manufacturer makes lemons, and every workshop
probably completely ruins an engine every now and then. The true test of the company is how well they stand behind their product, but even with the
best of warranty support, the customer will be upset and will often want to vent online.
Now, imagine that a company makes a great product and 99.9% of customers are completely satisfied. 0.1% of customers experience total product failure
and post online about it. If you want to buy this product, you might search online for user reviews. I guarantee that the reviews you find online will
be heavily biased towards the negative, and that they may even put you off buying the product. Who really wins from this situation? You are given
misleading and non-representative information and hence decide not to purchase the product. You miss out on a good product. The manufacturer loses a
sale. The only people who are slightly happy are the writers who vented. Even then, that will not really make them happy.
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Very good post.
The thing with my thread showing some of the problems found is that I've only just started. This is such a common occurance it's not funny. Not just
one or two shops either. I see rip off examples from many.
I think our government and modern society has a lot to do with it. It is very hard to make a living in the automotive repair industry if, as a
tradesman, you want to do the right thing, either by the car or customer. The cost of repairs is high due to high labour rates due to the high cost of
running a business. So much so, business owners end up working purely to make a buck....the mighty dollar ends up foremost in thier work environment.
How to make money ends up the driving force.
They will cut corners or do whatever it takes to get jobs out.
I believe that there is no excuse. Shit workman ship is everywhere and should be stamped out.
Yes there are laws to stop the public defamation, but these poor practices need to stop.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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Subarugears
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| posted on September 26th, 2012 at 09:04 AM |
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Here's an alternative view - given that we really can't name and shame.
When you/we receive excellent customer service and excellent products - take the time and sing it from the hills!
If forums are filled up with great feedback about a particular business or product, others will take notice and it will build a positive reputation
for the builder/seller.
This is as powerful, if not more powerful than bad news and forum posts about an unpleasant experience.
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vassy66T1
A.k.a.: Marcus Vass
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Wow ... are U reading this?
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| posted on September 26th, 2012 at 11:54 AM |
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subarugears ... that is the best way to handle it
Matt, it isn't any easier in the building trade to do the right thing and make a dollar.
Everyone (as customers) seems to struggle with the idea of buy once, cry once.
You get what you pay for.
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silver
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| posted on September 26th, 2012 at 11:56 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Bizarre
Because libel laws are very different here and administrators of forums can be held accountable for the posts of members.
We have already had issues here in the past and don't need to go there again.
USofA has different laws.
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This is Silly, i could probably defame myself on a forum and then sue the forum admin for allowing it to be seen publicly
Keeping it real !
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MISS VDUB
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| posted on September 26th, 2012 at 01:10 PM |
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^ That is silly, as one can not defame themselves.
Defamation—also called calumny, vilification, traducement, slander, and libel (for written, broadcast, or otherwise published words)—is the
communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group,
government, religion, or nation a negative or inferior image. This can be also any disparaging statement made by one person about another, which is
communicated or published, whether true or false, depending on legal state. In Common Law it is usually a requirement that this claim be false and
that the publication is communicated to someone other than the person defamed (the claimant)
In common law jurisdictions, slander refers to a malicious, false [not specific enough to verify] and defamatory spoken statement or report, while
libel refers to any other form of communication such as written words or images. Most jurisdictions allow legal actions, civil and/or criminal, to
deter various kinds of defamation and retaliate against groundless criticism. Related to defamation is public disclosure of private facts, which
arises where one person reveals information that is not of public concern, and the release of which would offend a reasonable person. "Unlike [with]
libel, truth is not a defense for invasion of privacy.
False light laws are "intended primarily to protect the plaintiff's mental or emotional well-being. If a publication of information is false, then a
tort of defamation might have occurred. If that communication is not technically false but is still misleading, then a tort of false light might have
occurred.
In some civil law jurisdictions, defamation is dealt with as a crime rather than a civil wrong. A person who harms another's reputation may be
referred to as a "famacide", "defamer", or "slanderer".
1963 Single Cab Ute: "El Concreto"
1962 Baja Beetle: "Peanut"
1968 Porsche 912 SWB: "Pip"
1972 Kombi Snail: "The Snail"
2012 Skoda Octavia Scout: "Scout"
2016 Scirocco R: "Rocco"
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smithy68
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| posted on September 26th, 2012 at 06:16 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Subarugears
Here's an alternative view - given that we really can't name and shame.
When you/we receive excellent customer service and excellent products - take the time and sing it from the hills!
If forums are filled up with great feedback about a particular business or product, others will take notice and it will build a positive reputation
for the builder/seller.
This is as powerful, if not more powerful than bad news and forum posts about an unpleasant experience.
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Here is some positive feedback, I bought a Vintage Speed exhaust through Mat Berry, I had issues with the fittment and such with my heat riser pipes,
they were welded up by an outsourced company and didn't fit correctly, so I ordered the pipes direct from Vintage Speed . Now Mat went out of his way
to speak with me on the phone and via countless emails, correct the issue and even payed for the pipes and postage from Vintage Speed.
If I have not already thanked Mat I would like to thank him again for all his help and determination to make me happy.
This is a RARE trait among people today and highly recommend him to anyone.
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shokwave2
A.k.a.: Matt Hamilton
Officially Full-On Dubber
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| posted on September 26th, 2012 at 06:31 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Birdman
| Quote: | Originally
posted by MISS VDUB
This forum is not a public shit slinging platform and if there are issues, they need to be dealt with between the business and the actual customer,
not other owners of business's seen to be in competition or keyboard mechanics who amplify the situation with I'll informed comments. As you can see
its not worth it for all involved and needs to be dealt professionally in person, not plastered on forums leaving those who run them open to
litigation.
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OK then, how about my situation.
Did someone jump and 8 foot fence with a giant breaker bar and socket set, remove my beam, then jump back over the fence with it? or did the shop
steal from me?
All im saying is SOME people deserved to be named and shamed.
Definition of forum
noun (plural forums)
1. a meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged:
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Maybe Sebben & Sebben law firm can help with your case Birdman?
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Birdman
Wolfsburg Wizard
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| posted on September 26th, 2012 at 07:54 PM |
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Your funny Shokwave !
Well it looks like I "poked the bear" on this one eh?
Some people have really run with this when all I was asking is, why dont we name and shame. answer legal reasons. end of story.
It is interesting that the samba, an american forum, with america being the most litigious nation on earth, has this feature.
Where as in the land of the fair go (australia), we don't.
Seems a bit odd, but that's the way it is.
I guess I am just imagening ancient greece with me standing on the step saying spiro's oil lamps are crap and crack first time you light them. Get
what i mean.
BTW, MISS VDUB I don't appreciate being labeled a shit slinger or keyboard mechanic. I think I have been defamed. I better sue. Oh Snap !!!
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Birdman
Wolfsburg Wizard
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| posted on September 26th, 2012 at 07:59 PM |
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And Andrew i have absolutly no intention of jeopordiising the forum i spend most of my time on and sincerely apologise if a comment made about a
business which has not existed for 20 years may cause you any dramas. Would you like me to edit the post?
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kombibob
Custom Title Time!
AKA: Volkswagen Type 2 Transporter Van Robert
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| posted on September 26th, 2012 at 08:07 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Birdman
Your funny Shokwave !
Well it looks like I "poked the bear" on this one eh?
Some people have really run with this when all I was asking is, why dont we name and shame. answer legal reasons. end of story.
It is interesting that the samba, an american forum, with america being the most litigious nation on earth, has this feature.
Where as in the land of the fair go (australia), we don't.
Seems a bit odd, but that's the way it is.
I guess I am just imagening ancient greece with me standing on the step saying spiro's oil lamps are crap and crack first time you light them. Get
what i mean.
BTW, MISS VDUB I don't appreciate being labeled a shit slinger or keyboard mechanic. I think I have been defamed. I better sue. Oh Snap !!!
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Where were YOU called a shit slinger? MISS VDUB only stated that if we were to name and shame the forum would turn into a shit slinging match.
1961 swb buggy
1960 karmann ghia
1963 Single Cab: "El Concreto"
1963 bent 23 window " Frieda Samba "
1963 Eriba Faun camper " Cara Van daCamp"
2012 Skoda Octavia scout
Get down low and go,go,go
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vlad01
Compulsive Aussie Vee Dubber
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| posted on September 26th, 2012 at 08:22 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Subarugears
Here's an alternative view - given that we really can't name and shame.
When you/we receive excellent customer service and excellent products - take the time and sing it from the hills!
If forums are filled up with great feedback about a particular business or product, others will take notice and it will build a positive reputation
for the builder/seller.
This is as powerful, if not more powerful than bad news and forum posts about an unpleasant experience.
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Thats true, but what I have noticed is most people( not sure about other cultures?) won't takes notice when someone does good, but
when someone slips up and does bad, everyone seem to know and never forgets.
very hard and takes a long time to build a good rep but awfully fast and easy to kill it. I don't know if its human nature or if its western
culture? All I know is this bias certainly exists.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
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MISS VDUB
A.k.a.: Ash
Super Administrator
Mrs KOMBIBOB
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| posted on September 26th, 2012 at 08:38 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Birdman
Your funny Shokwave !
Well it looks like I "poked the bear" on this one eh?
Some people have really run with this when all I was asking is, why dont we name and shame. answer legal reasons. end of story.
It is interesting that the samba, an american forum, with america being the most litigious nation on earth, has this feature.
Where as in the land of the fair go (australia), we don't.
Seems a bit odd, but that's the way it is.
I guess I am just imagening ancient greece with me standing on the step saying spiro's oil lamps are crap and crack first time you light them. Get
what i mean.
BTW, MISS VDUB I don't appreciate being labeled a shit slinger or keyboard mechanic. I think I have been defamed. I better sue. Oh Snap !!!
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Where exactly did I label YOU that? It was a general comment unless you have a guilty consciounce or something? 
It's comments like that that do stir up problems with people failing to read things correctly. The reason Andrew, myself and others take this topic
seriously is that its been brought up more times than you can count. Things that happened way before you joined only 2 years ago, stuff that
jeopardized the existence of this forum and the hard work Andrew puts in. As already explained, the reason the Samba has such a thread is that they
have a totally different law, which is also why they will sue who ever they want for such rediculous things. I'm thankful it's not like that here
and that our laws can prevent most of it happening.
At the end of the day, enjoy the forum for what it is and as mentioned above, let's ensure that those who do provide excellent service get the
recognition they deserve.
1963 Single Cab Ute: "El Concreto"
1962 Baja Beetle: "Peanut"
1968 Porsche 912 SWB: "Pip"
1972 Kombi Snail: "The Snail"
2012 Skoda Octavia Scout: "Scout"
2016 Scirocco R: "Rocco"
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