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 VDubya
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| posted on October 16th, 2005 at 02:02 PM |
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| Quote: | I'm sure Brad has
already done more conversions than nearly everyone on this forum
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Really? The only ones were seeing are the same ones other shops have been doing for 10 years.
Took my Caravelle elsewhere and got an extra two cylinders without the smart ass comments I was getting from the other shops I asked about doing it. |
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Baja Wes
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| posted on October 16th, 2005 at 07:09 PM |
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| Quote: | Really? The only
ones were seeing are the same ones other shops have been doing for 10 years.
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I said "on this forum".
I haven't seen any of the other shops on this forum, and if they were their advise would be welcome. We have open minds.
Besides, Brad has been involved with two KLZE engine transplants, I haven't seen a shop do one of those before. The EJ22's are just the sensible
easier engine conversion they do more often.
Brad has a unique personality. If you ask him a stupid question you will get a stupid answer. Judging by your non-constructive comments so far on this
post I can only assume the smart ass comments were self inflicted.
If you care to discuss this further you can u2u me. Anymore non-constructive posts in this thread will be deleted.
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 helbus
A.k.a.: Pete S
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| posted on October 17th, 2005 at 08:51 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Baja Wes
Brad has a unique personality. If you ask him a stupid question you will get a stupid answer.
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Brad has been very helpful with my EJ22 conversion in the bay, and. Even though he has done a heap of them, he was still very open to my thoughts. He
is very receptive to receptive people.
To keep things on topic, I think the radiator in the back hidden away is a great idea. It would be such a great point of interest to the conversion.
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71superbug
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| posted on October 17th, 2005 at 10:46 AM |
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this may be a completely looped out idea...but would it be possible to "mid mount" two smaller radiators (one on each side) under where the back
seats used to go without losing too much strength in the pan?
was thinking this as it can be hidden away under the some stereo housing .etc
just an idea.
Anthony
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Baja Wes
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| posted on October 17th, 2005 at 12:46 PM |
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my radiator is above the gearbox, and I still have the rear seat and a 12" sub behind it. It's just s very shallow sub box.
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pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
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| posted on October 17th, 2005 at 01:13 PM |
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Thought I'd tell you something interesting I noticed while driving on the weekend.
On saturday on the way home from the cruise (The entrance to Sydney) i drove the buggy at 110km/h WITHOUT the side screens on for the first time. The
engine ran on average 5deg hotter. I can only put this down to the drivers side screen normally channeling the cool air toward the scoop. I am not
sure about the specifics of the aerodynamics of the car, but I was surprised to see such a difference, keepng in mind this was up and down all the
major hills along the F3.
I spose the moral to the story is that small things like this can make a big difference when the car is under load at speed. So where I thought i had
the rear rad setup completely sorted on my buggy, I'm now inclined to believe It might be up for more development...not sure how, that's all.
BTW, can people please keep the bonehead comments and personal insults out of the post? If I wanted to hear those I'd catch a train and listen to the
local Junkies argue like three year olds.
[ Edited on 17-10-2005 by pete wood ]
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Baja Wes
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| posted on October 17th, 2005 at 01:28 PM |
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I don't want to clean up the post unless I have to, as it seems to cause errors in the database occasionally.
So I didn't like my last model, and decided I needed the front of the car. I also added part of a decklid. I left the top of the decklid open,
simulating really good vents in the top half. The model is a slice of the car beside the gearbox, over the axle area. The car is a real rough guess as
I don't have any dimensions of a beetle handy 
This is a streamline diagram. It shows where all the air flows.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on October 17th, 2005 at 01:34 PM |
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you can also do a vector plot which shows air direction and speed at various points of interest. You can see without scoops the radiator area is in a
dead air pocket, as you'd expect. You can also see the flat VW windscreen is quite bad aerodynamically.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on October 17th, 2005 at 01:51 PM |
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then I added a small scoop. It is a plate that sits 50mm below the floor pan and bends up to point above the axle. You can see this makes quite a big
difference.
The problem is australia is that scoop legally must be 100mm off the ground. No problem in a Baja, but a problem in a street beetle.
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Doug Sweetman
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| posted on October 17th, 2005 at 04:06 PM |
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Good effort Wes - I remeber what it was like playing with ANSYS through uni, must be fun to have tools like that at your disposal. Just like I
appreciate having a full machine shop around when I want a foreigner I guess.....
I think your rear mounted radiator is definetely a workable solution. I dont think its the ideal location, but given that you are planning on running
a 1400cc Alfa motor instead of a 2L turbo or a 2.5L v6 the heat load (and consequently cooling required) is not so large.
You will most definetely need a good scoop like Wes's diagrams show - you will also need the thermo fans so that air is moving over the core whilst
you are standing still. There is really quite a bit of room under the car there so you should be able to put something quite neat together - think
aluminium sheet or fibreglass I guess.
I look forward to seeing your unique ride - it is the fact that we are all different and have different ideas that pushes us to innovate. Innovation
is the mother of progress, so...... be different and find a new solution !
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pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
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| posted on October 17th, 2005 at 04:07 PM |
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Wes, If I sent you a pics of my car could you do me a diagram too?
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Baja Wes
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| posted on October 17th, 2005 at 05:03 PM |
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the hard part is drawing it Pete. Drawing from a photo is very difficult.
If you can drawn a section of your car in 2D CAD then I could do a run easy enough. 3D cad is preferable.
If you give me a scale drawing (even a scan of a hand drawing) I can stick it in CAD and quickly trace around it possibly.
Your car no doubt would have a large low pressure dead velocity zone from your windscreen backwards.
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pete wood
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| posted on October 17th, 2005 at 08:32 PM |
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would doing an outline in paintbox suffice? I ain't got CAD and it's been ova a decade since I used it. 
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jvl054
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| posted on October 17th, 2005 at 08:45 PM |
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I used Cad to design my chassis from my engineer (Long while ago)Deffently a learning point....Wes these diagrams deffently only good for a Baja
because of the escape air point of veiw is that right?.....JVLRacing
[ Edited on 17/10/2005 by jvl054 ]
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subaruboxer
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| posted on October 18th, 2005 at 05:15 AM |
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Talked to the owner of this oval with ej 22, finally got his telephone number! He is driving his beetle with the radiator in the back, just like you
want. He is using a scoop under the car and his decklid can be opend by a small hydralic pump. He says it works fine even on 35 degree celcius days.
Without the open decklid it worked just up to 25 degrees celsius.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on October 18th, 2005 at 08:24 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by jvl054
Wes these diagrams deffently only good for a Baja because of the escape air point of veiw is that right?.....JVLRacing
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The model is only a quick very rough model to basically show what happens and what the flow looks like.
I tried to model something that is actually more like a beetle with heaps and heaps of louvres pressed into the top section of the decklid, and it
propped open slightly. This allows air through the top section.
In a rough model you don't bother modelling all the individual louvres, because it would take forever and it makes the CFD model very complicated and
slow to run and solve.
Pete, in you draw it to scale in paint then maybe I could give something a quick go.
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gerrelt
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| posted on October 19th, 2005 at 03:50 AM |
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Wow, this post is getting better and better! Thanks for the encouragement guys, and Wes, thanks for the great pictures, I saved them on my computer.
This is exactly the stuff I was looking for, brilliant! :thumb:thumb:thumb
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SHMO
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| posted on October 19th, 2005 at 05:30 AM |
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I wish I would have known about this website, and especially this thread, before I started my own rear mounted Rad setup. Thanks for the tip
Gerrlett.
Here are a couple of pics showing my build so far. This is of course on a Baja, but the rear parcel area is considerably different than most sedans
due to my sheetmetal work and rollcage. I knew I would have to isolate the Radiator in ductwork to contain and direct the airflow. I did my own
"backyward" experimenting with a leaf blower and a piece of string....haha I found a decent amount of air movement just over the gearbox so that is
why I decided on that location. I was however, unsure of the airflow being sufficient. That graph you posted Wes was worth the price of admission.
Showing how a simple wing will create that much additonal airflow makes me very happy. Take a look at my work in progress and let me know what you
think.
SHMO
trimmed parcel area
radiator framework
radiator frame/ductwork (photoshop)
frame installed in car
installed with ducting (photshop)
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jvl054
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| posted on October 19th, 2005 at 08:38 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by SHMO
I wish I would have known about this website, and especially this thread, before I started my own rear mounted Rad setup. Thanks for the tip
Gerrlett.
Here are a couple of pics showing my build so far. This is of course on a Baja, but the rear parcel area is considerably different than most sedans
due to my sheetmetal work and rollcage. I knew I would have to isolate the Radiator in ductwork to contain and direct the airflow. I did my own
"backyward" experimenting with a leaf blower and a piece of string....haha I found a decent amount of air movement just over the gearbox so that is
why I decided on that location. I was however, unsure of the airflow being sufficient. That graph you posted Wes was worth the price of admission.
Showing how a simple wing will create that much additonal airflow makes me very happy. Take a look at my work in progress and let me know what you
think.
SHMO
trimmed parcel area
radiator framework
radiator frame/ductwork (photoshop)
frame installed in car
installed with ducting (photshop)
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Welcome SHMO, nice work.Deffently seeing Wes Baja diagrams and your pics of fabrication tells many words.:thumb:thumbJVLRacing
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Baja Wes
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| posted on October 19th, 2005 at 10:04 AM |
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shmo, it's a pity my website is currently not working (still waiting for the file transfer to the new server) as I have some good photo's of my
car.
You will see our cars are very similar in set-up.
As you can see here, it all fits behind my back seat. This is a bad photo because it's after an offroad trip and everything is covered in dirt.
This shows the view through the hatch inside the car. You need to insulate the hatch really well, as huge amounts of heat will try to radiator into
the car.
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewthread.php?action=attachment&tid=40641&pid=380538&aid=43637
This is a pic with the hatch install, back seat in place, and 12" sub and speaker box mounted on top. You'd never know a radiator is in there.
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewthread.php?action=attachment&tid=40641&pid=380426&aid=43627
I also marked up the top photo to show what everything is.
[ Edited on 19-10-2005 by Baja Wes ]
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Baja Wes
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| posted on October 19th, 2005 at 10:09 AM |
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also download this pdf;
http://offroadvw.net/bajawes/Big%20Bad%20Baja%20-%20Part%202.pdf
It is only ~830kB. It has some ok pics of my engine and radiator set-up.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on October 19th, 2005 at 10:14 AM |
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and another useful pic of the rear of my car
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SHMO
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| posted on October 19th, 2005 at 10:17 AM |
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Wes,
your setup is fairly similiar to mine. However, your radiator is mounted considerably flatter. One question, is there anything stopping the ariflow
from going around the sides of your radiator? Actually I have several questions now that I think about it...haha What size is your radiator? What kind
of CFM's are your fans pulling? And the ultimate question, how well does your setup work?
I really wish I could see more of your car to see how exactly everything was done.
SHMO
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SHMO
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| posted on October 19th, 2005 at 10:18 AM |
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Oh nice,
I guess I should have just shut up and waited for a second. Thanx for the extra pics....lol
SHMO
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Baja Wes
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| posted on October 19th, 2005 at 02:00 PM |
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if you go to http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewthread.php?tid=40641&page=2
you will see I discuss my experiences with that set-up.
It's a standard japanese 1992 mazda MX6 radiator, fans, and engine. I figure they were made for each other so I'd keep using them together.
Basically it is fine up to 60mph. Over that and it starts to get hot. It's quite obvious all it needs is a scoop, which I don't have.
Yes I have some side pieces between the radiator and the body. I just need something from the rear of the radiator down, and a scoop.
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SHMO
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| posted on October 20th, 2005 at 03:29 AM |
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Wes,
I have checked out your car as much as possible. It looks to be very well thought out. I can't wait for your website to get back online so I can see
more of it.
I was wondering. What vehicle did you steal that coolant surge tank from? It's a very clean and compact looking little unit. Also, is there any
reason you chose to use a surge tank as opposed to a simple inline filler neck with your setup?
This is good info for anyone doing a radiator setup as well. To avoid air pockets, you need to have the filler in the highest possible area of the
coolant level. Otherwise, you will need to use a surge tank to allow the air to escape the system.
SHMO
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SHMO
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| posted on October 20th, 2005 at 04:15 AM |
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It just dawned on me. If anyone is curious about my buildup, you can view the breakdown of my car here.
SHMO's Baja
I posted lots of pics showing most of the cars details.
SHMO
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Baja Wes
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| posted on October 20th, 2005 at 08:34 AM |
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SHMO, my surge tank is also from the MX6. I bought an MX6 front cut (which you can see in picture of in the pdf link that I posted above) and
basically used everything from the front cut. Wiring loom, ECU, cooling system, everything I could. I hope to get the climate control in my car in the
next couple of months too.
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pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
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| posted on October 20th, 2005 at 08:37 AM |
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very nice Baja SHMO,
Wes, I believe you have some competition :P
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Baja Wes
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| posted on October 20th, 2005 at 10:12 AM |
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I don't think there's any competition, SMHO's baja is clearly much better than mine. Kick ass suspension, and very nice attention to detail. The
only thing I don't like is the choice of wheel rims. You'd have trouble getting that thing registered in Australia though.
Very nice work indeed SMHO.
[ Edited on 20-10-2005 by Baja Wes ]
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