| [ Total Views: 2632 | Total Replies: 30 | Thread Id: 53081 ] |
| Pages: 1 2 |
|
|
 bajachris88
A.k.a.: Chris Leete
23 Windows of Awesome
The international telephone dialing code for Antarctica is 672.
Posts: 6661
Threads: 534
Registered: April 8th, 2005
Member Is Offline
Location: Tanah Merah, SE-QLD
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: A bee bit ma' bottom, now ma' bottom's big!
|
| posted on June 8th, 2006 at 10:26 AM |
|
|
What are the limits in a stock VW engine? Could u sit at 5000 revs with no worries?
continuing a debate from a recent thread in the young dubbers section, we been discussing this.
Poeple have said and contributed that u could drive it at 5000 revs no worries, others say that 4000 should be the limit and that the vw was just not
build for it.
I can say i have heard it being called a low rev engine, but i been brought up to be rough with em.
What you'se rekon? Would high revs kill em fast? or just heat/dirt more than anything?
we been discussing what is stronger too. would a 1300/1500 handle it better? (i rekon they would as the SP on those engines acts as a rev limiter
unlike the 1600TP), when it comes to a 1100 or 1200 early engine, well, no idea.
Join in, babble, be incoherant, but no BITCHING or CRAP. cough cough (whispers a few names of individuals whom i am growing dislike for)...
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears. 
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta! |
|
|
oval TOFU
Son of Jim - Creator of Good
Bitte, ein Bit!
Posts: 2946
Threads: 234
Registered: July 10th, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: Pt Cookie, Melburg
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Grey
Mood: :booM
|
| posted on June 8th, 2006 at 10:41 AM |
|
|
Some people say that the stock intake manifold and the stock muffler restrict airflow enough to act as a rev limiter, so just go flat stick as fast as
you can... For me, sounds like the engine is absolutely screaming at that pace and i'm pretty mechanically sympathetic, so i don't push it past
100-105ish. I'll do 110 if it's in cold weather so I don't risk overheating (i've got crappy fitting tinware) I think 5 grand on the tacho is a
bit too much. 4500 would be a safer limit in my mind.. the stock crank aint counterweighted, so the vibration (in the long term - depending on the
condition of your engine) wouldn't be such a great thing... That said, VW designed the bugs to sit on 100kph all day with no worries...
my 2 pesos..
...and Robert's ya father's brother...
|
|
|
bajachris88
A.k.a.: Chris Leete
23 Windows of Awesome
The international telephone dialing code for Antarctica is 672.
Posts: 6661
Threads: 534
Registered: April 8th, 2005
Member Is Offline
Location: Tanah Merah, SE-QLD
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: A bee bit ma' bottom, now ma' bottom's big!
|
| posted on June 8th, 2006 at 11:19 AM |
|
|
That makes sense. IT is a very interesting debate, well i find is. Hopefully will pick up a bit during peak hr this arvo.
what engine u running tofu?
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears.
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta! |
|
|
68AutoBug
A.k.a.: Lee Noonan
Aircooled Master
Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138% - YIKES --
Posts: 11654
Threads: 449
Registered: August 31st, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: SCONE in UPPER HUNTER VALLEY NSW
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Yellow
Mood: Really Mentally Ill - all of the time -
|
 posted on June 8th, 2006 at 11:33 AM |
|
|
Hi Chris,
the early 40 HP 1200cc engines had restricted breathing so You could go as fast as they would go -- all day....
The maximum horsepower came in at 3900 rpm..
41.5 BHP [SAE] [so My books say...]
the 1300cc engine has 50 BHP [SAE] at 4600 rpm..
the 1500cc engine has 53 BHP [SAE] at 4200 rpm..
the 1600cc Dual port engine has 62 BHP [SAE] at 4000 rpm...
This engine can be revved faster as it does NOT have the restricted breathing of the single port engines...
Lee
- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
|
|
|
bajachris88
A.k.a.: Chris Leete
23 Windows of Awesome
The international telephone dialing code for Antarctica is 672.
Posts: 6661
Threads: 534
Registered: April 8th, 2005
Member Is Offline
Location: Tanah Merah, SE-QLD
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: A bee bit ma' bottom, now ma' bottom's big!
|
| posted on June 8th, 2006 at 11:43 AM |
|
|
very interesting figures Lee
the 1300 and 1500 being restricted, could u push em as hard as they go with no worries?
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears.
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta! |
|
|
Doug Sweetman
Veteran Volks Folk
Nil Bastardo Carborundum
Posts: 2128
Threads: 58
Registered: September 23rd, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Perth, W.A
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: sweeeeet 
|
| posted on June 8th, 2006 at 11:55 AM |
|
|
I wouldnt think 5000rpm for long periods of time in a stock 1600 would be a good move..... thinking in real terms, with a single side plate L bug box,
thats about ..... ummm about 150 - 160kmh (in 4th) I think (someone will know for sure).
I have an 1835 with counterweighted crank, heavy duty single valve springs and fully balanced - the most I've revved it to is 6500, and I use 6000 as
a redline, I just dont feel comfortable above that. In my case, its two things - the standard rocker gear (which I know Pobjoy engines use upwards of
6000rpm, but I'm not Stan) and the fact my Kadrons / cam combo doesnt make much power past about 5800, so there is no point in revving further.
|
|
|
bajachris88
A.k.a.: Chris Leete
23 Windows of Awesome
The international telephone dialing code for Antarctica is 672.
Posts: 6661
Threads: 534
Registered: April 8th, 2005
Member Is Offline
Location: Tanah Merah, SE-QLD
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: A bee bit ma' bottom, now ma' bottom's big!
|
| posted on June 8th, 2006 at 11:58 AM |
|
|
6000 is a nice red line.
u build ur engine? If so, got a thread? if not where u got it from?
does the 1835 engine seem to be a good runner? any issues?
Cheers doug
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears.
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta! |
|
|
bond
Veteran Volks Folk
Posts: 2456
Threads: 166
Registered: July 11th, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: brisbane
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on June 8th, 2006 at 01:27 PM |
|
|
1500sp motors i thought were industrial motors and built tough as... designed to go 24/7.
the 1300tp stocker i had with 205/55/r15s would rev itself out to about 5500 on the M1 at what said like 85mph on the clock lol but obviously
wasnt.
nick
|
|
|
oval TOFU
Son of Jim - Creator of Good
Bitte, ein Bit!
Posts: 2946
Threads: 234
Registered: July 10th, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: Pt Cookie, Melburg
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Grey
Mood: :booM
|
| posted on June 8th, 2006 at 01:54 PM |
|
|
i'm running a 1200 40HP with a 30 PICT carb and extractors and a hotdog...I think i've gottet to 110 before... my speedo is way off!
...and Robert's ya father's brother...
|
|
|
1500S
Custom Title Time!
Posts: 1418
Threads: 73
Registered: March 28th, 2005
Member Is Offline
Location: Nth Richmond, N.S.W
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on June 8th, 2006 at 03:17 PM |
|
|
>the 1600cc Dual port engine has 62 BHP [SAE] at 4000 rpm...
This engine can be revved faster as it does NOT have the restricted breathing of the single port engines...
Lee<
Why did VW actually make the dual port heads??
DH
PS. Maybe a trick question!!
|
|
|
bajachris88
A.k.a.: Chris Leete
23 Windows of Awesome
The international telephone dialing code for Antarctica is 672.
Posts: 6661
Threads: 534
Registered: April 8th, 2005
Member Is Offline
Location: Tanah Merah, SE-QLD
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: A bee bit ma' bottom, now ma' bottom's big!
|
| posted on June 8th, 2006 at 03:20 PM |
|
|
To rev faster?
lol, think thats too easy of an answer to be right... i'm sure theres a more detailed answer.
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears.
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta! |
|
|
cram
Officially Full-On Dubber
Posts: 368
Threads: 67
Registered: January 15th, 2005
Member Is Offline
Location: BNE
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: moving
|
| posted on June 8th, 2006 at 03:54 PM |
|
|
there's not much past 4200 RPM on a stock 1600 DP though...just a lot of noise.
|
|
|
Doug Sweetman
Veteran Volks Folk
Nil Bastardo Carborundum
Posts: 2128
Threads: 58
Registered: September 23rd, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Perth, W.A
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: sweeeeet
|
| posted on June 8th, 2006 at 03:57 PM |
|
|
I built the 1835 after work at our VW mechanics (he put the bottom end together) about 3 and a half years ago. I didnt take any photos
unfortunately.
Its a good motor, the only thing I did wrong was I didnt research my cam choice very well, and I have a mismatch between the HSC #2 cam and my KAdron
carbies. It would probably be a much nicer car to drive with a basic Engle 110 - the HSC#2 doesnt come on until around 3000rpm, which can make it a
pain to drive on a cold winters morning - especially with no vacuum advance.
|
|
|
68AutoBug
A.k.a.: Lee Noonan
Aircooled Master
Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138% - YIKES --
Posts: 11654
Threads: 449
Registered: August 31st, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: SCONE in UPPER HUNTER VALLEY NSW
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Yellow
Mood: Really Mentally Ill - all of the time -
|
| posted on June 8th, 2006 at 04:29 PM |
|
|
Hi Chris,
Probably the best thing with Dual or Twin port Heads is that they can be used on a 1641, 1775 or 1835 cc
engine with good results....
especially with Twin, dual throat carburetors....
Two things happened with Dual port engines...
More horsepower and better acceleration....
although both only marginal...
but with a fuel use increase.... less MPG...
I have read where a 1600 single port engine has slightly
more Torque than a Dual port 1600 engine....
but Less Horse Power..
and much better economy.... MPG...
Lee
- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
|
|
|
1500S
Custom Title Time!
Posts: 1418
Threads: 73
Registered: March 28th, 2005
Member Is Offline
Location: Nth Richmond, N.S.W
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on June 8th, 2006 at 04:38 PM |
|
|
To rev faster?
lol, think thats too easy of an answer to be right... i'm sure theres a more detailed answer.<
A really complicated answer Chris! It was only to put fuel injection on the heads and the performance on both single port and dual port were exactly
the same according to the experts, Volkswagen.
DH
|
|
|
bajachris88
A.k.a.: Chris Leete
23 Windows of Awesome
The international telephone dialing code for Antarctica is 672.
Posts: 6661
Threads: 534
Registered: April 8th, 2005
Member Is Offline
Location: Tanah Merah, SE-QLD
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: A bee bit ma' bottom, now ma' bottom's big!
|
| posted on June 8th, 2006 at 04:41 PM |
|
|
hmm, certainly very interesting indeed.
I have to say, this is a very informative read for me.
Cheers guys
Apparenlty the 1500 single port heads fit the 1600 barrels, so might be an option. At the moment, trying to grab a good running 1500SP that was
originally from my car (got all the other semi auto gizmo's on it), and will see where i can go from there.
Will have to also start another thread about fitting a tacho meter, and recommended packages for that.
[ Edited on 8/6/2006 by bajachris88 ]
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears.
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta! |
|
|
bus914
Custom Title Time!
Posts: 1230
Threads: 233
Registered: August 29th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Central Coast
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Could be worse
|
| posted on June 8th, 2006 at 06:19 PM |
|
|
stock spring will let the valves float around 6k
|
|
|
Joel
Scirocco Rare
Now containing 100% E-Wang
Posts: 9368
Threads: 211
Registered: February 14th, 2006
Member Is Offline
Location: Northern Rivers NSW
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Purple
Mood: Tact Level 0.00
|
| posted on June 8th, 2006 at 06:50 PM |
|
|
valve and points bounce are rev limiters in a vw engine LOL
i got h/d springs and electronic ignition in mine
with twin carbs, free flowing exhaust system and a bit of head work my 1600 revs out to around 5500rpm
doug - with single side plate box and the 17" rims it had on at the time ive clocked it to around 170 it was doing about 5 grand
but i wouldnt do it for too long, bearing seats wont like it
Joel
[ Edited on 8-6-2006 by DUB74L ]
|
|
|
Boozer
Custom Title Time!
Demented But Determined
Posts: 1999
Threads: 129
Registered: December 30th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Redland Bay, Brisbane
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: What the crap?
|
| posted on June 8th, 2006 at 07:35 PM |
|
|
this makes me wanna whack my worn out old 1300TP (i think) in my baja and see how high it revs! never felt comfortable above 4000rpm...
THe MC Bat Commander's motto: "Never do now, what you could do for 24 hours straight, all night, the night before."
|
|
|
1500S
Custom Title Time!
Posts: 1418
Threads: 73
Registered: March 28th, 2005
Member Is Offline
Location: Nth Richmond, N.S.W
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on June 8th, 2006 at 08:15 PM |
|
|
>1500sp motors i thought were industrial motors and built tough as... designed to go 24/7.
the 1300tp stocker i had with 205/55/r15s would rev itself out to about 5500 on the M1 at what said like 85mph on the clock lol but obviously
wasnt.
nick <
>Apparenlty the 1500 single port heads fit the 1600 barrels, so might be an option. At the moment, trying to grab a good running 1500SP that was
originally from my car (got all the other semi auto gizmo's on it), and will see where i can go from there.<
ALL 1500 engines were originaly single port starting with the 1500 Type 3 of 1961. The first of the 1600 engines (66 Fastback etc) was also single
port as was the 1300 engines which came out at around the same time.
With this in mind, all single port and dual port heads will accept the 1600 cyls without alteration.
My S has standard single port heads running 1600 pots at 8.5:1 comp as was the original 1500S engine. Good economy and cruises well on highway along
with reasonable torque.
DH
[ Edited on 8/6/2006 by 1500S ]
|
|
|
ancientbugger
Custom Title Time!
Posts: 1986
Threads: 191
Registered: March 24th, 2004
Member Is Offline
Location: sunshine coast
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Yellow
|
| posted on June 8th, 2006 at 08:21 PM |
|
|
When I had my first beetle (1300 TP) it was a couple of years old and in perfect condition I would have my foot to the floor and let it go as fast as
it could which was about 85MPH, I later found the revs to be around 4000 rpm. Eventually (years later) I had an 1835 cc in the same car that would rev
to 7500 rpm-good fun,expensive and not nearly as reliable! Now though with VWs getting so old and not always knowing the history of some parts I just
try to go with reliability rather than speed (I've got to say this as the wife keeps looking over my shoulder )
|
|
|
bond
Veteran Volks Folk
Posts: 2456
Threads: 166
Registered: July 11th, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: brisbane
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on June 8th, 2006 at 10:44 PM |
|
|
funny ancientbugger - i have a 73 std 1300tp in the same case as you described - which now has an 1835 that will go 7k... lol... crazy times
nick
|
|
|
koolkarmakombi
Veteran Volks Folk
enkarmarising
Posts: 2078
Threads: 158
Registered: June 16th, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: viva brisvegas
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: do you see the bats?
|
| posted on June 9th, 2006 at 01:04 PM |
|
|
depends how hard chris88,
there is hard, and then hard.
respectfully hard? the car should go all day
abusively hard..... b-a-n-g
kkk
buy a roadworthy going car and get your bloody liscence chris!
This disclaimer does not reflect the thoughts or opinions of either myself, my company, my friends, or my dog: don't quote me on that; don't
quote me on anything; this disclaimer is subject to change without notice; text is slightly enlarged to show detail; resemblance to actual persons,
living or dead, is unintentional and coincidental; dry clean only; do not bend, fold, or mutilate; anchovies or jalapenos added to this disclaimer
upon request; your mileage may vary; no substitutions are allowed; for a limited time only while supplies last; offer void where prohibited; this
disclaimer is provided "as is" without any warranties expressed or implied
|
|
|
pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
23 Windows of Awesome
Posts: 6828
Threads: 389
Registered: January 15th, 2004
Member Is Offline
Location: Nth Nth StMarys, Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro White
Mood: upgrades = jackstands
|
| posted on June 9th, 2006 at 04:36 PM |
|
|
I had a stocker twin port only with 1640 barrells on it. I thought it would only get out 4500, but I once had to overtake a truck in a 60zone and I
had it out to 5000rpm in second gear. It was screaming but it did it without an issue.
I was told by my mechanic that the PICT carbies/stock intake manifold act like a rev limiter. He's built offroad racing motors with PICt carbies and
you can drive them foot flat airbourne over jumps and not worry about over-revving.
|
|
|
fekkinell
Wolfsburg Wizard
Posts: 655
Threads: 88
Registered: June 29th, 2005
Member Is Offline
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on June 9th, 2006 at 07:03 PM |
|
|
forget 'will' it do it... i'd be asking 'why' do it?
"Mr Writer, why don't you tell it like it is? Why don't you tell it like it REALLY is?" - stereophonics
|
|
|
MickH
A.k.a.: Michael Hutchinson
Bishop of Volkswagenism
Hairy Gutted Sloth
Posts: 3389
Threads: 29
Registered: September 6th, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: TownsvilleTropical North QLD
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Grow a brain...walls don't hit back...
|
| posted on June 9th, 2006 at 07:42 PM |
|
|
| Quote: | Originally
posted by fekkinell
forget 'will' it do it... i'd be asking 'why' do it?
|
"Why" not!!! Drive it like it's rented:P:bounce:bounce
tssnq.com.au
|
|
|
fekkinell
Wolfsburg Wizard
Posts: 655
Threads: 88
Registered: June 29th, 2005
Member Is Offline
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on June 9th, 2006 at 07:57 PM |
|
|
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Mick H
"Why" not!!! Drive it like it's rented:P:bounce:bounce
|
because when they explode it makes me cry :P
"Mr Writer, why don't you tell it like it is? Why don't you tell it like it REALLY is?" - stereophonics
|
|
|
bajachris88
A.k.a.: Chris Leete
23 Windows of Awesome
The international telephone dialing code for Antarctica is 672.
Posts: 6661
Threads: 534
Registered: April 8th, 2005
Member Is Offline
Location: Tanah Merah, SE-QLD
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: A bee bit ma' bottom, now ma' bottom's big!
|
| posted on June 9th, 2006 at 08:12 PM |
|
|
| Quote: | Originally
posted by koolkarmakombi
depends how hard chris88,
there is hard, and then hard.
respectfully hard? the car should go all day
abusively hard..... b-a-n-g
kkk
buy a roadworthy going car and get your bloody liscence chris!
|
Lol, as much as i would want to mate, money is tight. I'm saving up, the car seams closer to being on the road then what i thought. I got contacts
for free sheet metal, + a mate who is willing to weld for free, and got some contacts to borrow welders off them. The semi auto works great a i was
told, looks very looked after,and if i get the original engine, its just a matter of bolting it all together, and it will be running.
I'm just after the quickest and cheapest option for getting a ride on the road, wateva way it is. I haven't made final decisions yet on anything
though. Getting another car might be the option. Its gonna be a baja, so its gonna get bashed. Prettiness isn't that much of a focus for me. Licence
is booked in July too :P
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears.
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta! |
|
|
bajachris88
A.k.a.: Chris Leete
23 Windows of Awesome
The international telephone dialing code for Antarctica is 672.
Posts: 6661
Threads: 534
Registered: April 8th, 2005
Member Is Offline
Location: Tanah Merah, SE-QLD
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: A bee bit ma' bottom, now ma' bottom's big!
|
| posted on June 9th, 2006 at 08:13 PM |
|
|
by the way, i got my IDIOTS GUIDE!! Its the bomb, but the look of it!
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears.
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta! |
|
|
type3lover
A.k.a.: The Smashed Repairer
Insano Dub Head
in the garage...
Posts: 796
Threads: 90
Registered: February 2nd, 2005
Member Is Offline
Location: Adelaide
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: stoked
|
| posted on June 17th, 2006 at 05:12 PM |
|
|
Hey Chris
The stock cam in a 1600 lets the engine rev to 5500rpm. If the valve springs are tired then you'll get valve bounce a bit below that. The camshaft
grind determines the rev limit of any engine so some wild cams and heavy duty valve springs will allow you to rev to 8000rpm or more but as others
said sustained high revs WILL cause more engine wear no matter what and is not good for the bearing journals in the case.
The aircooled stock VW engine is capable of running at full output for long periods of time.
Hope this helps.
Cheers, T :thumb
.
|
|
|
| Pages: 1 2 |
