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 mr_xtc2
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| posted on April 7th, 2007 at 01:36 PM |
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Lowering Front End - help needed i think i stuffed it
hi,
Just Lowering the front end of my Bug over the next week, and just run into a few little questions.
Im looking at lowering the front end by welding in adjusters.
Firstly, will i need to install lowered shocks? i have read that the existing ones will bottom out if i lower the front end, which dosent make sense
to me since i am not moving the rubber stops.
Second, i intend on only lowering a few inches and am a little worried about geometry and handling. Does anyone have experience with castor shims? Im
wondering is a set of these are the go while ive got the beam off.
Thanks in Advance
[ Edited on 12-4-2007 by mr_xtc2 ]
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VWCOOL
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| posted on April 7th, 2007 at 06:32 PM |
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yep you are right with 'bottoming out' etc... You will have less travel but if it's only a couple of inches, stock shocks will be okay
yes, fit shims
Pay your debts, CxxT
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mr_xtc2
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| posted on April 8th, 2007 at 09:40 AM |
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thanks mate
Done a bit of research and looking to drop in kyb gas shocks all round.
Will be getting adjusters later in the week to weld in.
How low can you go without narrowing and dropped spindles?
[ Edited on 8-4-2007 by mr_xtc2 ]
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vwo60
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| posted on April 9th, 2007 at 11:50 PM |
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lowering
i have tried adjusters and they work fine if you do not lower the car very far,the lower you go you place extra load on the inner bushes of the
trailing arm and they ware out ,i fitted dropped spindles and my car rides well even when fitted with 205/45/17 tyres,if you lower it with adjusters
the ride deteriates the more you lower it making it go of line in corners if the road has any bumps,the way the front suspension was designed to
operate,the trailing arms are sloping down at an angle from the beam so when you hit a bump they move up and back in an arc away from the bump,if you
lower it using adjusters it decreases that angle and it requires more force to get the suspension moving resaulting in a harsh ride,try and save up
for the dropped spindles and maintain your standard geometry,castor shims are only required if the car has a problem being blown about by cross winds
and the steering wheel not self centering have a wheel alinment to see if the car has the correct amount of castor and if not fit them there,an
increase in castor translates into an increase in steering effort,i have tryed bilstiens,konis,kyb gr2,kyb gas adjust,the gas adjusts are the best
comprimise i have used,they ride well and last.
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Hertz
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| posted on April 10th, 2007 at 02:24 PM |
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Dont go gas, or you will be in bumpsteer city. Shims are only needed if you have rake, so set your rear height to level, and you will be fine. Cut off
your bump stop horns and reweld them on with a bit of upward rotation to give a bit more travel, or just leave em off completely. You can go seriously
low without spindles, just add a bit more drop into the position of the adjusters before you weld them in, but just watch for rubbing on the tyres,
you may have to go to a smaller tyre such as 135s or smart car tyres. All the best with it! Josh.
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vwo60
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| posted on April 10th, 2007 at 06:02 PM |
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shocks have nothing to do with bump steer,lowering the car the way the previous post suggested does,bump steer on the drivers side will increase
drasticly going this way and not to forget the the tie rods can rub on the fuel tank ,the suspension is ment to operate withinn the range controled by
the bump stop,remove it and you will use the shocks as the bump stop destroying them,the legal requirment states that you must have bump stops in the
standard position unless you have a engineers approval
and you can only reduce the bump stop clearence by 1/3,the use of castor shims is determined by a wheel alinment.dropped spindles have none of the
drastic side effect you will experence lowering the car as recommened in the previous post which is down right dangerous and illeagal
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Hertz
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| posted on April 10th, 2007 at 06:31 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by vwo60
shocks have nothing to do with bump steer,lowering the car the way the previous post suggested does,bump steer on the drivers side will increase
drasticly going this way and not to forget the the tie rods can rub on the fuel tank ,the suspension is ment to operate withinn the range controled by
the bump stop,remove it and you will use the shocks as the bump stop destroying them,the legal requirment states that you must have bump stops in the
standard position unless you have a engineers approval
and you can only reduce the bump stop clearence by 1/3,the use of castor shims is determined by a wheel alinment.dropped spindles have none of the
drastic side effect you will experence lowering the car as recommened in the previous post which is down right dangerous and illeagal
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Theory is a wonderfull thing, often proven wrong in practice. You need an engineers cert to run dropped spindles too, but all the
guys at Mummys Boys Toys already know that.
[ Edited on 10-4-2007 by Hertz ]
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vwo60
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| posted on April 10th, 2007 at 08:53 PM |
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drop spindles can be approved and there is no theory about the negitive effects that happen when you lower a trailing arm front suspension in the
manner stated by hertz,harsh ride,excess bump steer,tramlining and having the tyres rub every bump you hit and not to forget that in an accident you
would be found coulpable,i am not a arm chair racer and i have been modifying beetles for 30 years and what i stated was the resault extensive
testing,my car is totaly legal and insured and is the resault of that experence,giving advice that would reduce the roadability of the car is
dangerious and hertz's statment about the gas shocks causing bumpsteer is incorrect,it would be the fact the car's suspension is operating outside
it's disigned paramiters caused by the lower of the vehicle using the recommendations from hertz,all the guy's from mummy's boy's toy's know that
they don't want to kill or injure themself or anybody else
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MickH
A.k.a.: Michael Hutchinson
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| posted on April 10th, 2007 at 08:58 PM |
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Now can we PLEASE stay on topic.You've both had your say.Lets keep it posetive and move on.Thanks.
tssnq.com.au
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xornge666x
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| posted on April 11th, 2007 at 10:47 AM |
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Having done both methods, I can recommend starting with drop spindles, and if you wish to go lower then adding adjusters. The ride with drop spindles
is a lot better than lowering with only adjusters.
All methods of lowering the front require an engineers report in theory, including adjusters, turning the centre, or drop spindles.
Some shocks have a bump stop built in, and is sufficient to pass an engineers test if the factory stops have been removed.
If you plan on running it super low, you are best to narrow it a few inches, especially with spindles, as they push the offset out 10mm or so a
side...
Good luck!!
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mr_xtc2
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| posted on April 11th, 2007 at 01:02 PM |
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Well have Just finished the lowerign work yesterday. Had the beam cut, rotated and re-welded. painting it today. Should be fitted to the car
tonight.
Decided to go for not too big a drop, and gone for 2 1/2 inches.
Drop spindles later if i get the urge to go lower!
Have also replaced a few tie rod ends aswell before it goes back in.
As for teh caster, have lowered the back about 1 1/2" so i dont htink ill bother as it aint too much rake.
Thanks for the opinions!
Getting shocks in the next few weeks, will be putting the old stockers in for a while.
Josh
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mr_xtc2
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| posted on April 12th, 2007 at 10:25 AM |
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Well after installing the front end. its sitting just a few mm off the bump stops, so looks like it has been dropped about 4-5". Cant work out where
ive gone wrong, as i have only rotated the centres 11mm whcich should equate to 2.5" at the wheel if the maths is correct. Dont think ive stuffed
putting it back together.
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xornge666x
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| posted on April 12th, 2007 at 01:05 PM |
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thats the issue doing it that way! If you are cutting it, just put adjusters into it instead of the beam centre and you will have some adjustment.....
not set in one spot. Get some sway a way style adjusters, re cut it, and install them.......
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mr_xtc2
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| posted on April 12th, 2007 at 03:36 PM |
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yeah thats looking like the option at the moment.
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on April 12th, 2007 at 06:43 PM |
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11mm on a 25mm radius(50mm tubes)=
around 66mm at a 150mm arm(it may be around this length).
But there are two arms!
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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Hertz
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| posted on April 12th, 2007 at 07:09 PM |
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Adjusters with the centre of the slot welded to the standard bolt position will give a 2.5 to 3 inch drop, if you rotate them forward 11mm that will
prob equal a 5 inch or so drop at lowest adjustment. Personally id just lop of the bumpstops front and rear, notch the rear plates and dump it. You
will end up wanting to in a few weeks anyway. You will be surprised how good a slammed bug can ride if done right, especially if you do a real narrow
beam. The narrower you go, the better they drive.
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mr_xtc2
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| posted on April 12th, 2007 at 07:48 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by dangerous
11mm on a 25mm radius(50mm tubes)=
around 66mm at a 150mm arm(it may be around this length).
But there are two arms!
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yeah thats what i calculated!
So you reckon a rotation of 5mm may have been the go?
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dangerous
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| posted on April 13th, 2007 at 05:53 AM |
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On hind site yes,
but something still aint right with MY thought process...
Perhaps the trailing arm IS longer than that?
Leave it with me...
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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