| [ Total Views: 2856 | Total Replies: 22 | Thread Id: 65131 ] |
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 StenGuns
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| posted on September 20th, 2007 at 06:46 PM |
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Copper Brake Lines
This topic has had little air-time on here. I've googled it and there is limited (Australia Specific) info available..
Here's what I know:
Common to have copper lines in the UK and are legal
Spoke to a senior RTA engineer who advises that although it is frowned upon it depends who you speak to. He is unaware of any RTA ruling that makes it
illegal.
Spoke to my fabricator who used copper lines on a chevy re-build only for it to not pass engineers scrutiny.
I have had it on good authority that it is illegal in NSW and I have also had it on good authority thats its not.
Can we have some informed debate about this please?.. If anyone has an RTA extract or anything else that could provide an authoritative view, that
would be helpful.
Footnote:
Copper Lines are considered unreliable due to "work hardening" which causes them to become brittle.
The same could be said for s/steel (I've been told it worse) and other steel (e; original lines) can corrode.
A copper/nickel line seems to be OK.
Thats all I know..
Rob
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 barls
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| posted on September 20th, 2007 at 06:57 PM |
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ot sure on this rob but maybe if you didnt get lost posting it mate or have we just had a hard day
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StenGuns
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| posted on September 20th, 2007 at 06:59 PM |
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http://www.cda.org.uk/frontend/faqs.htm#COPPER
http://www.copperinfo.com/cproducts/transportation.automotive.html
http://www.dotars.gov.au/roads/safety/bulletin/pdf/NCOP10B_LO1-4_ICV_checklis...
[ Edited on 20-9-07 by StenGuns ]
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555bug
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| posted on September 20th, 2007 at 07:37 PM |
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I got my lines from a local brake place and they are apparently copper coated steel. So you get the benefits of steel (strength, not brittle) and the
benefits of copper in that it won't rust.
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barls
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| posted on September 20th, 2007 at 07:50 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by StenGuns
Huh?
| Quote: | Originally
posted by barls
ot sure on this rob but maybe if you didnt get lost posting it mate or have we just had a hard day
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ie its in the 2007 events section
ill ask the old man when he gets up tomorrow or so and see what he thinks
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StenGuns
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| posted on September 20th, 2007 at 09:25 PM |
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From Queensland Transport
HYDRAULIC LINES
Reasons for rejection:
• Hydraulic lines are not securely mounted, not free from damage or corrosion, show evidence
of leakage and are not constructed of approved material. (See Note 1)
NOTES:
(1) Normal commercial copper tubing has been prohibited from use in brake systems
because it is considered prone to cracking due to work hardening. However, there is a
Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) Recommended Practice called Tubing – Motor
Vehicle Brake Tubing Hydraulic – SAE J1047 which is the accepted industry standard.
Persons wishing to use copper tube for vehicle hydraulic brake lines, must first provide
proof of compliance with SAE J1047 or equivalent standard.
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StenGuns
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| posted on September 20th, 2007 at 09:42 PM |
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DOTARS refers to a National Code of Practice for Light Vehicle Construction and Modification.
http://www.dotars.gov.au/roads/safety/bulletin/pdf/NCOP5_Section_LG_Brakes_3F...
Section 2.4 Component Standards
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StenGuns
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| posted on September 21st, 2007 at 10:39 AM |
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Just when you think you are getting somewhere!!
The above NCOP standards Section 2.7 states that "The Use of Copper Tubing for Hydraulic Brake Pipe is Not Allowed". Which is fairly definative
however it refers you to the appropriate State or Territory Registration Authority to seek clarification.
The RTA NSW refers to hydraulic lines being made of Bundy Tube or similar that meets standard SAE J1047. It does not discount the use of copper tubing
as far as I can see..
It also refers to Australian Design Rule 31 (ADR 31) which doesn't mention copper. it does mention compliance to SAE J1047 and it does state that ADR
31 only applies to passenger vehicles built since 1988!
Now here's the kicker.. The SAE has actually cancelled J1047 and it has not been replaced. i have discussed this with SAE Australasia this morning
and they say that regulatory authorities cannot "technically" refer to a standard that does not exist! Yet they still do! SAE (Aust) have referred
this now to SAE Intl (in USA) for a ruling/comment.
Talk about a beauracratic minefield! My best bet now is to just get a engineer to come in and certify the work (has to do so anycase as I have
modified front brakes). I can then walk away happy ( I think!)
[ Edited on 21-9-07 by StenGuns ]
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bond
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| posted on September 21st, 2007 at 03:14 PM |
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whats wrong with using standard solid brake lines?
nick
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VWCOOL
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| posted on September 21st, 2007 at 03:22 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 555bug
I got my lines from a local brake place and they are apparently copper coated steel. So you get the benefits of steel (strength, not brittle) and the
benefits of copper in that it won't rust.
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...mine rusted!
Pay your debts, CxxT
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StenGuns
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| posted on September 21st, 2007 at 04:02 PM |
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Nick.. Steel lines (inc coated ones) are known to corrode.. Copper ones (amongst others) Are known to harden.. Personally I don't think there is much
issue..
However I chose copper only to find I may have an issue come certification..
| Quote: | Originally
posted by bond
whats wrong with using standard solid brake lines?
nick
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StenGuns
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| posted on September 26th, 2007 at 08:24 PM |
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Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 17:12:55 +1000
From: "Rose De Amicis"
To:
Subject: SAE J1047 All headers
All attachments
Dear Robert,
Further to your enquiry regarding the above standard, I wish to confirm that the standard is cancelled. When a document is cancelled it is because
the industry no longer requires them. The contents, diagrams, procedures, etc are no longer valid or comply with current legislations. At times,
certain cancelled documents will be superseded by another document, but not in this case. The cancelled standard is available in print format.
If you require anything further, please contact me.
Regards,
Rose De Amicis
Admin. Officer
SAE-A
Suite 3, 21 Vale Street
North Melbourne Vic 3051
Tel: (03) 9326 7166
Fax: (03) 9326 7244
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barls
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| posted on September 26th, 2007 at 08:29 PM |
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also try talking to the rta tech inquiries line mate its a 1800 number from memory.
also the old man said that the extruded one was fine but the rolled one wasnt for brake lines.
it was good to see you again mate
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StenGuns
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| posted on September 26th, 2007 at 08:30 PM |
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Footnote: I spoke with (yet another) RTA compliant engineer today.. Firstly he told me that the ADR's only applies to vehicles post 1972 (I have also
been told 1988 and this is confirmed in the ADR documentation).. And that any vehicles earlier than that can only be "recommended" to comply.. (By
the way, that doesn't stop them from denying you roadworthy)..Secondly he told me that he wasn't surprised that the SAE standard that the ADR relies
on is obsolete.. He said that there is a lot of that.. Bloody hell!
So.. In summary; It depends on who you talk to... Christ thats sounds like I'm back at the beginning again..!!
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StenGuns
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| posted on September 26th, 2007 at 08:32 PM |
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Cheers Barls.. No point talking to the RTA.. They outsource the decisions to the engineers who look to the ADR's which are based on SAE's which are
obsolete.. Funny old world eh?
Nice to meet your Dad and I appreciate the advice (and the shirt).. Oh.. Also I am using yr winder mech thanks.. I'll need to sort you something for
it..
[ Edited on 26-9-07 by StenGuns ]
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barls
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| posted on September 26th, 2007 at 09:29 PM |
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not a problem ill let you know what he wants for it later after ive spoken to him.
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1303Steve
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| posted on September 26th, 2007 at 11:50 PM |
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Hi
Ive owned and have been driving VWs since 1971. I have never had a stock steel line rust out on me. Stick with the steel ones and you wont have any
RTA issues.
Steve
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Matt Ryan
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| posted on September 27th, 2007 at 08:45 AM |
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I've seen brake fluid made by nulon that is supposed to be anti-corrosive? The usual places, Supercheap etc.
Frome their website:
http://www.nulon.com.au/products.php?productId=xbf
Useful Information:
Nulon XBF contains inhibitors to reduce corrosion of the many alloys found in braking systems. Oxidation inhibitors are also used to prevent oxidation
of the fluid itself.
It is difficult to completely seal the braking system to prevent the ingress of atmospheric moisture or water splashes through hoses and the master
cylinder. Brake fluids must withstand the absorption of at least 3% to 4% water without lowering the boiling point to a dangerous level. The presence
of more free water significantly increases the chance of brake failure due to vapour lock and can promote corrosion of the brake system. This is why
it is so critical to change the fluid every two years.
Regards,
Matt.
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Rota_Motor
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| posted on September 30th, 2007 at 12:01 PM |
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the steel bundy line that we use at work is coated in some sort of paint, and it seems to be inside and out, so I suspect new steel lines made from
quality tubing wont be an issue.
also flushing the brake fluid every two years or so should keep moisture in the system at a minimum, and not cause any corrosion problems.
apparentyl DOT5 silicon brake fluid is not the best thing to use, because although it doesnt absorb water like normal DOT3/4 fluids, the water still
gets in the lines, and tends to poll at the lowest points causing corrosion, rather than being evenly distributed throughout the complete system. |
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StenGuns
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| posted on March 16th, 2008 at 01:28 PM |
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Update on the brake lines in my 67 Re-build..
We initially had copper lines used.. The pan was given an RTA engineer once over before we joined the body on and, guess what? You guessed it.. The
copper didn't pass due to the "work hardening" issue. So we replaced all with steel bundy lines.. My bad.. What pisses me off though is that they
are referring to an SAE standard J1047 in the ADR's which is obsolete and hasn't been superceded.. That means there is technically no reason NOT to
use copper.. However.. I'm not going there again.. On we go with the re-buld
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helbus
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| posted on March 16th, 2008 at 10:24 PM |
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What about stainless steel lines? Lots of showcars use it!
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ancientbugger
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| posted on March 17th, 2008 at 09:14 AM |
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So what do new cars use? Copper, steel or copper coated steel?
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StenGuns
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| posted on March 17th, 2008 at 04:22 PM |
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Copper-nickel alloy
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