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 57 Panel
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| posted on January 11th, 2008 at 09:38 PM |
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Twin or Quad throttle body fuel injection
Can anyone here fitting fuel injection tell me if Twin or Quad throttle body injection would work on a VW engine. I'm thinking of trying to develop a
Quad set-up using the throttle bodies off a Corolla.
Adam.....
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MickH
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| posted on January 12th, 2008 at 01:09 AM |
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I had quad throttle body injection on my 1916 engine in my Manx...went very well...but the induction noise got the better of me so it now has a
Subaru...
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57 Panel
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| posted on January 12th, 2008 at 06:49 AM |
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What throttle bodies did you use. The corolla ones are all that I have found so far and cost around $200 with manifold and injectors although I have
to cut the manifold in half and re-tap the fuel inlet for another fuel feed pipe.
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Brian
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| posted on January 12th, 2008 at 07:03 AM |
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Have u got any pics of the Corrolla T'body ??
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 vw54
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| posted on January 12th, 2008 at 10:06 AM |
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Your better off using a single throttle body they work better
using quads is a pain as you will spend more time adjusting and syncronising them
everyone i know who had twins or quads has gone back to a single set up even the guys with the quick drag VWs
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MickH
A.k.a.: Michael Hutchinson
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| posted on January 12th, 2008 at 11:39 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 57 Panel
What throttle bodies did you use. The corolla ones are all that I have found so far and cost around $200 with manifold and injectors although I have
to cut the manifold in half and re-tap the fuel inlet for another fuel feed pipe.
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Redline Webber.
tssnq.com.au
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on January 12th, 2008 at 02:26 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by vw54
everyone i know who had twins or quads has gone back to a single set up even the guys with the quick drag VWs
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were they running turbo's or N/A setups ?
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dangerous
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| posted on January 12th, 2008 at 03:06 PM |
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A single throttle body will kill air flow on a N/A vw because of the manifold.
Boosed engine will loose flow too but it can be made up for with boost.
Most boosted engines have restrictive tubes between the turbo and engine either way so it will be less obvious.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on January 12th, 2008 at 03:31 PM |
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that's what I thought..............my understanding is that twin throttle bodies would be better, although I have never run fuel injection, I would
have thought the principles would be similiar as carbies.
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57 Panel
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| posted on January 12th, 2008 at 04:55 PM |
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pic
Here's a picture of the throttle bodies off a 20v Totota Corolle engine.
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57 Panel
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| posted on January 12th, 2008 at 05:03 PM |
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I've found a set for $150 including throttle position Sensor. From the picture it looks like if I cut the manifold in half I can tap the open holes
to take another feed pipe.
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 matberry
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| posted on January 12th, 2008 at 10:53 PM |
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I ran a single with plenum, and went up to quad and the improvement was as expected, but certainly more induction noise.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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Judsons4eva
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| posted on January 13th, 2008 at 09:23 PM |
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I have quad throttles and they work great. They are off a K100 BMW m/cycle
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550 Porsche Spyder
56 Oval mit Judson
96 Porsche 993 C2
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57 Panel
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| posted on January 14th, 2008 at 03:17 PM |
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I've also started looking at Honda 954 and Yamaha R1. What computer are you running. I only want a symple one. Most newer computers are too over the
top for what I need.
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vw54
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| posted on January 14th, 2008 at 03:44 PM |
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| Quote: |
were they running turbo's or N/A setups ?
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they have all been Turbo
no reduction in HP in most cases a increase
theres lots of heating / cooling tube on that honda set up keep it simple is the object of the game
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vw54
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| posted on January 14th, 2008 at 03:45 PM |
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have a look at my set up
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=63561&page=1#pid624099
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57 Panel
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| posted on January 14th, 2008 at 04:44 PM |
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Here are the R1 TB's. It looks like they can be split into pairs.
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vw54
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| posted on January 14th, 2008 at 04:47 PM |
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looks like it what about the fuel rail
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Judsons4eva
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| posted on January 14th, 2008 at 05:21 PM |
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I run a Gotech ECU ( http://www.gotech.co.za ) which is the cheapest around at about
$400. It does everything I want spark, tps input, closed loop, logging direct fire etc. Howver I have sung its praises in the past on this forum and
just copped flack for pushing it.
Mortgage your house and buy a Motec, Haltec or Wolf - I'll stick with my Gotech the whole system including injectors, throttle bodies, fuel pump,
fuel rail and other sensors cost me about a grand all up.
My engine is NA but it can handle a boosted engine.
Ken
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57 Panel
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| posted on January 14th, 2008 at 05:40 PM |
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Thanks Ken. That would do all I need. It's not as if I need an ECU that can handle 50 different inputs.
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76bug
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| posted on January 15th, 2008 at 08:15 AM |
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which model gotech are you using Ken?
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56astro
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| posted on January 15th, 2008 at 08:22 AM |
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GOD DAMN - just finished typing a response and lost the lot 
Try again,
Horses for courses.
For performance applications ITB (individual throttle bodies) are the way to go. That's why manufacturers like BMW only use ITB on their M-Power
vehicles. Also why motocycles (light and rev to over 10,000 rpm) use them. What's interesting with the BMW M5 is that even though it uses ITB, it
also has a plenum from which manifold pressure readings are taken.
On the other hand, for a daily driven application the single TB and plenum are able to be properly tuned using throttle opening (%) and load (MAP).
You only have throttle opening on a ITB system. That's why 99.9% of vehicle manufactures use single TB and plenums.
The other issue with ITB on a VW engine is the linkage. When the engine is cold and the TBs are all shut, how far will they open when the engine warms
up?
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa |
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Judsons4eva
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| posted on January 15th, 2008 at 08:23 AM |
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Just the basic one Gotech MFI
550 Porsche Spyder
56 Oval mit Judson
96 Porsche 993 C2
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Judsons4eva
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| posted on January 15th, 2008 at 08:27 AM |
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With my ITB's I just run a TPS sensor and it runs like a dream - idles at 650 rpm and revs out with no flat spots or hesitation. Starts first pop
with no cold start set up and warms up very quickly.
550 Porsche Spyder
56 Oval mit Judson
96 Porsche 993 C2
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56astro
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| posted on January 15th, 2008 at 09:50 AM |
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So your system has the same ignition advance at say 2500 rpm at 30% throttle, regardless of whether its cruising or climbing a hill?
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa
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Judsons4eva
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| posted on January 15th, 2008 at 12:05 PM |
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Yes - that's correct. That would be true if you had a map sensor - at 25% throttle and a set RPM the manifold vaccum would be the same whether you
are cruising or climbing a hill.
550 Porsche Spyder
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96 Porsche 993 C2
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56astro
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| posted on January 15th, 2008 at 12:42 PM |
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It is well recognised that MAP-based tuning is a more accurate method of determining engine load. That's why all manufactures use it.
How does a TPS-based system differentiate between a free reving engine at 100% throttle opening and an engine under load (climbing a hill) at 100%
throttle opening?
I'm not saying your set-up doesn't work, it probably works well. But there are better ways. The modern ECU can generally compensate for poorly
designed systems.
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa
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Judsons4eva
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| posted on January 15th, 2008 at 01:23 PM |
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Sorry but you need to think about it a little more.
The reason MAP based systems are used is to more precisely control fuelling during transient driving for emission control reason. eg over run cut etc.
But for performance on a NA engine a TPS system is just fine. If it is a boosted engine then by definition you need to measure manifold pressure.
If you had 100% no load the engine would not be rev limited and self destruct. The only thing that controls the RPM at 100% throttle is the load
applied. If you have no load and want to control the speed to say even 6500rpm you would close the throttle.
In either case a TPS shows 100% throttle and a MAP sensor would show zero vacuum.
Trust me for every day driving when you are not too worried about meeting emission a TPS system works perfectly fine and much better than a MAP based
system with ITB"s. Most ecus can be set up for 100% TPS.
Ken
550 Porsche Spyder
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96 Porsche 993 C2
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56astro
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| posted on January 15th, 2008 at 01:39 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Judsons4eva
The reason MAP based systems are used is to more precisely control fuelling during transient driving for emission control reason.
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Thank you. You are now arguing for my side!
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Judsons4eva
for performance on a NA engine a TPS system is just fine.
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That's what I said. It's fine but there are better systems.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Judsons4eva
If you had 100% no load the engine would not be rev limited and self destruct. The only thing that controls the RPM at 100% throttle is the load
applied. If you have no load and want to control the speed to say even 6500rpm you would close the throttle.
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No. You are missing my point. It's about ignition advance and what the engine wants at certain LOADS. A TPS does not accurately tell the ECU the LOAD
the engine is experiencing.
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa
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MickH
A.k.a.: Michael Hutchinson
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| posted on January 15th, 2008 at 02:27 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 56astro
The other issue with ITB on a VW engine is the linkage. When the engine is cold and the TBs are all shut, how far will they open when the engine warms
up?
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The ITB's are not shut when the engine is cold.....they are open to a pre determined gap so the engine will run.The linkage is adjusted while the
engine is hot.The linkage is "longer" than required when the engine is cold as the intake manifolds are not spread as far apart until the engine
heats up. I had no problems with mine at all. It ran a TPS and MAP.Air flow meters suck.
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