oxyboxer or kombi 2lt motor or suby

im tossing up on rebuilding my 1.8ltr kombi motor or converting an wasserboxer to air what are the advantages and disadvantages between the 2 rebuilds it will be street driven every day in my beach buggy i like the look of mickh's ej22 conversion but would like to stay aircooled because of radiator placement and panel cutting i dont know wether to go down that road any input would be great

cheers
stevo

stick with the type 4 or suby.

wasserboxer still retains the type 1 bottom end as far as I understand and said to be not as bullet proof as the type 4 or suby engine in the bottom end department. and a lot of work involved to make a oxyboxer from a not as good foundation so it doesn't make any sense to do it.

wasser bottom ends are awesome! prob the best flat four vw ever produced. there are a few BIG hp turbo wassers getting around. do some reading on shoptalk.

mactaylor wrote:wasser bottom ends are awesome! prob the best flat four vw ever produced. there are a few BIG hp turbo wassers getting around. do some reading on shoptalk.

X2 😘

hellbugged wrote:

mactaylor wrote:wasser bottom ends are awesome! prob the best flat four vw ever produced. there are a few BIG hp turbo wassers getting around. do some reading on shoptalk.

X2 😘

great minds!

hellbugged wrote:

mactaylor wrote:wasser bottom ends are awesome! prob the best flat four vw ever produced. there are a few BIG hp turbo wassers getting around. do some reading on shoptalk.

X2 😘

x3

Wasser bottom ends are STRONG, but unless you really know your stuff and can do most of the build yourself, expect to spend plenty.

If it's a more mild engine with budget constraints, I'd recommend using the 1800, either offset grind the crank into a 2.0 litre or put in a bigger one 😉

My experience recently is EJ22. The whole conversion cost under $2000 including donor car. I done all the conversion myself excluding the wiring loom cutdown. (AM auto Noosa)
So for ME this combo is great in a baja as I can hide my radiator up front behind nose. Im very happy with the power, economy and smoothness of it and availability for engines if need be.
I have never heard ANYONE say "I regret this and want to go back to type 1 or 4 vw donk. I think you should do the sums and also test drive a EJ22 powered buggy if possible. I'm not discouraging Type 4 powered buggy but the subi option was best for myself.

An oxyboxer conversion isn't the hardest thing in the world, but unless your a backyard machinist I would steer clear. I tried years ago, the studs were seized and snapped in the case and were a nightmare to get out and the 76mm crank was bent and cracked. This was before I could just buy a preclearanced CB aluminium case, which is the way I would go now. The German wasserboxer case may be better material but not sure if it's worth all the effort.

Subi's may not be perfect but make a lot of sense I think.

Only plus I can see in a subi is it's cheap other than that they have don't have a lot going for them.As an example what can you fix on the side of the road/ track?

If that was a valid argument we would all still be riding horses. The whole point is they shouldn't need fixing on the side of the road or track!!

It's always funny the Subaru haters always say how easy their VW's are to fix on the side of the road, but the subaru's aren't breaking down to need to worry about it....

11CAB wrote:It's always funny the Subaru haters always say how easy their VW's are to fix on the side of the road, but the subaru's aren't breaking down to need to worry about it....

I think the same thing but for the opposite reason.

A VW engine shouldn't need fixing on the side of the road. I've never had any troubles whatsoever in mine. They are very reliable is you service them regularly and keep them maintained. Just like anything mechanical really.



Smiley 🙂

I wonder if datsun forums have these little fights between "purists" and guys who stick SR20's in 😂

11CAB wrote:It's always funny the Subaru haters always say how easy their VW's are to fix on the side of the road, but the subaru's aren't breaking down to need to worry about it....

Thanks for calling me a hater,appreciate it.
Ok your out offloading in your Subaru and any of the following happen what are you going to do?
Subaru speedo pod burns out the circuit board.
Speed sensor fails.
Cam sensor fails.
Subaru ignition assembly(bit where the key goes).
Cambelt tensioner seizes.
Throttle position sensor fails.
Just saying there is a lot more hi tec things to go wrong and with all the bashing around etc.And at my mates subaru shop he's not short of work stock or modified they still have problems.
Also I'm pretty sure a lot of people contemplating a conversion of any kind really don't have a grasp of how good an aircooled VW can be.Maybe after the Sydney VW event I'll pull my motor out and stick it in Mattys mullet?

It's no different to Hotrods..... Cool looking car with modern running gear, you don't hear those guys saying stick to ya old side valve engine so you won't get stuck on the side of the road

"Ok your out offroading in your Subaru and any of the following happen what are you going to do?"

Ask this guy, he might know...😂

SuperOwen wrote:"Ok your out offroading in your Subaru and any of the following happen what are you going to do?"

Ask this guy, he might know...😂

Appreciate the humor but those etc cars have no bearing on what is being discussed here?so like I said what are you gonna do when those things go wrong?

Subie is super reliable with instant cheap power but if you wanna stay aircooled then read up on the wasser conversion.

Very strong case/crank and if you can do most the work yourself should be cheaper than a t4 engine rebuild.

There used to be a whole blog/site of a guy who did the entire conversion himself. Ended up with a torquey, reliable engine.

If you want water, you could stick in a wasser. All VW, no conversions required. Baja exhaust bolts on with minimal modifiaction and I've seen more hp/lb of boost with the VW watercooled flat four AND no extra weight out the back with the heavier ohc components.

Don't get me wrong, there is a lot going for Suby, but as Col said, many people don't get to see what a good reliable hipo VW can go like. A well built air-cooled installation will do many hundreds of thousands of kilometers, although with some more maintenance required with tappet adjustments.

matberry wrote:If you want water, you could stick in a wasser. All VW, no conversions required. Baja exhaust bolts on with minimal modifiaction and I've seen more hp/lb of boost with the VW watercooled flat four AND no extra weight out the back with the heavier ohc components.

Don't get me wrong, there is a lot going for Suby, but as Col said, many people don't get to see what a good reliable hipo VW can go like. A well built air-cooled installation will do many hundreds of thousands of kilometers, although with some more maintenance required with tappet adjustments.

Amen brother and praise be to cheese's

Or you could do this. A wasser converted to upright with a radiator in the fan shroud.

Dam daimo that is a sweet looking engine!

The biggest problem for me is the radiator. But I don't have a problem with is setup.
I have plans for a 2l type 4 using hydraulic tappets and fuel injection and electronic ignition. Other than changing the oil, I just plan to drive it.

66deluxe wrote:Or you could do this. A wasser converted to upright with a radiator in the fan shroud.

bugzla wrote:im tossing up on rebuilding my 1.8ltr kombi motor or converting an wasserboxer to air what are the advantages and disadvantages between the 2 rebuilds it will be street driven every day in my beach buggy i like the look of mickh's ej22 conversion but would like to stay aircooled because of radiator placement and panel cutting i dont know wether to go down that road any input would be great

cheers
stevo

Buggies are always a bit of a drain on the wallet. (Maintenance ,upgrades ect) So if you a want great power plant out back that doesn't need tuning has a smooth firing order and factory EFI reliability , that won't keep costing you $$$$ just go EJ22 and your done. ..

coletrickle wrote:

SuperOwen wrote:"Ok your out offroading in your Subaru and any of the following happen what are you going to do?"

Ask this guy, he might know...😂

Appreciate the humor but those etc cars have no bearing on what is being discussed here?so like I said what are you gonna do when those things go wrong?

Yeah, just joking around, I think that guy has an entire pit crew and truck full spares when things break down!! Al uxury most of us dont have...

Curious to know how well that upright wbx works, nice self contained solution, looks nice anyway.

had both aircooled and subi powered baja's and both had plus points,

aircooled, simple easy but lacking power unless u spend a fair bit but they just keep going if looked after and if they do stuff up when out its normally a easy fix

subi, cheap power and reliability but many more "gizmos" to stuff up and u need computers to tune (im not a mechanic so every time i wanted it tune it had to goto a garage as i had no frigging idea even after i fitted a aftermarket microtech lt10 with hand controller)


neither let me down when offroading and the subi was a better set up and had power to waste but the aircooled did it all just not as quick, just ask smiley he managed to go everwhere i did with a standard 1600 while i had turbo power, i just did it quicker :P

if i was to build another baja i would go a worked aircooled engine purely for the ease of maintenance , im building a kombi right now and that will be subi for ease of highway cruzing and i want a/c 🙂

go with what ever u like the idea the best, so many arguments for and against for both engines it all comes down to personal choice and what ur happy with..

steff............

DubCrazy wrote:had both aircooled and subi powered baja's and both had plus points,

aircooled, simple easy but lacking power unless u spend a fair bit but they just keep going if looked after and if they do stuff up when out its normally a easy fix

subi, cheap power and reliability but many more "gizmos" to stuff up and u need computers to tune (im not a mechanic so every time i wanted it tune it had to goto a garage as i had no frigging idea even after i fitted a aftermarket microtech lt10 with hand controller)


neither let me down when offroading and the subi was a better set up and had power to waste but the aircooled did it all just not as quick, just ask smiley he managed to go everwhere i did with a standard 1600 while i had turbo power, i just did it quicker :P

if i was to build another baja i would go a worked aircooled engine purely for the ease of maintenance , im building a kombi right now and that will be subi for ease of highway cruzing and i want a/c 🙂

go with what ever u like the idea the best, so many arguments for and against for both engines it all comes down to personal choice and what ur happy with..

steff............

Yup ^^^^WHS. If you want a VW donk to go well then you'll have tp do the maths and see how much it stacks up to doing an EJ conversion. Subie OEM ECU just needs a OBD-II reader for any sensor faults that might occur and makes fault finding much easier. Tuning requires a daughterboard if you want to change ignition or fuelling tables. Thta can defo get expensive 🙂

thank you so much for your input guys loads of pluses and negatives ive been awaiting the rebirth of mickh's buggy on the road so i can experience it with a ej22 i have the wasser boxer here but ill have to send the block out to get the modifications done some where the motor was running when it was givin to me and when striped found it was rebuilt no so long ago just awaiting my mate back from the mines to give me some help with tuning my su suck through turbo setup on my aircooled and we can go from there

11CAB wrote:It's always funny the Subaru haters always say how easy their VW's are to fix on the side of the road, but the subaru's aren't breaking down to need to worry about it....

+100000000000

coletrickle wrote:Only plus I can see in a subi is it's cheap other than that they have don't have a lot going for them.As an example what can you fix on the side of the road/ track?

Yep, subie's are completely untuneable. You can't get a 2.5l CDB with later twin cam heads and a good size urbo for a reliable 450bhp. And you can't source all this stuff from UK or USA and save heaps over Oz scrapyard prices. Neither can you either stick a daughter board on the ECU or install a Megasquirt for a completely tuneable ECU 🙂

Especially with the cost of HiPo VW parts in Oz I reckon you'd be spending about a third as much on a VW giving the same bhp as a EJ22 NA. As I said do the maths and see how ya go 🙂

Love to see a thread on the wasser engine build when ya get the block back. CB 82mm crank with chevy journals running 94 B&P's and JCM heads on top with 48IDA's and edis ignition 😀

What sort of buggie is it? If it's a original meyers manx keep it aircooled !

coletrickle wrote:

11CAB wrote:It's always funny the Subaru haters always say how easy their VW's are to fix on the side of the road, but the subaru's aren't breaking down to need to worry about it....

Thanks for calling me a hater,appreciate it.
Ok your out offloading in your Subaru and any of the following happen what are you going to do?

Subaru speedo pod burns out the circuit board.**DONT USE THE SPEDO POD!!

Speed sensor fails.**ENGINE WILL STILL RUN!!

Cam sensor fails.**ENGINE WILL STILL RUN FROM THE CRANK SENSOR

Subaru ignition assembly(bit where the key goes).**DONT USE IT.USE AN EARLIER ENGINE!!

Cambelt tensioner seizes.**PUT A NEW ONE IN...
Throttle position sensor fails.**OK YOUR SHAGGED.....LOL..

Just saying there is a lot more hi tec things to go wrong and with all the bashing around etc.And at my mates subaru shop he's not short of work stock or modified they still have problems.
Also I'm pretty sure a lot of people contemplating a conversion of any kind really don't have a grasp of how good an aircooled VW can be.Maybe after the Sydney VW event I'll pull my motor out and stick it in Mattys mullet?

I've run Subarus and high performance VW's and I've killed them both. Horses for courses but the Subi is CHEAP power...my VW donk was a $16000 (sixteen thousand dollar) engine...the subaru was a wrecker job which required a LOT LESS looking after than the VW...but i miss it...but wouldnt go back just for the $$ required.

I edited the qoute in the above text as it was easier than re typing the whole lot....

Steve😘,how about I just hit you at speed????😂

MickH wrote:Throttle position sensor fails.**OK YOUR SHAGGED.....LOL..

Nope not even that will stop them.
unplug yours and see what happens or just watch my youtube vid when I unplugged mine, they are still drivable.

I snapped the plug of mine years ago and had to drive 20km home.
It had a slight hesitation on accelaration and a pretty check engine light on the dash telling me what the problem was.

Anyway these VW vs Subaru threads are pointless and just go around in circles with both sides making stupid statements for the sake of an argument.

On one hand you have the die hard aircooled purists going oh Subarus are crap, lots of electrical to go wrong and you cant fix on the side of the road,
then the Subi converts on the other saying VWs are high maintaince and don't last.

Both totally crap.

You can build a VW motor that will last and not need a lot of maintaince, they just cost alot of $$ which is why alot go Subi.
and the electrics in Subarus don't give many problems, when they do it's more because of peoples half arsed conversions that faults occur.

Build a VW engine right and it will give long trouble free life as well.
Quality carbs and linkage or better yet EFI need minimal attention once set, electronic ignition only leaves periodic plug checking and adjusting the valves with each oil change takes all of 15 mins.

I only went Subaru because to build a 150+hp VW engine that I can put 300,000kms on and still get average 8.5L/100km/L economy was going to cost 3x or more.
And if i kill it I havent pissed all that $$ down the drain.

coletrickle wrote:Ok your out offloading in your Subaru and any of the following happen what are you going to do?
Subaru speedo pod burns out the circuit board.
Speed sensor fails.
Cam sensor fails.
Subaru ignition assembly(bit where the key goes).
Cambelt tensioner seizes.
Throttle position sensor fails.
Just saying there is a lot more hi tec things to go wrong and with all the bashing around etc.And at my mates subaru shop he's not short of work stock or modified they still have problems.
Also I'm pretty sure a lot of people contemplating a conversion of any kind really don't have a grasp of how good an aircooled VW can be.Maybe after the Sydney VW event I'll pull my motor out and stick it in Mattys mullet?

Nearly all those faults the car stay running and driving as it has software that can work around faulty sensor and for every 1 or 2 your mate has to work on there is literally 1000s and 1000s both stock and modified out there giving 300,000+kms of trouble free motoring.


Purists like to use the break down scenario to poo poo but fact is if you have a part failure on the side of the road, unless you carry an arsenal of VW parts in the boot or can call a mate to bring a part you probably stand more of a chance getting back on the road with subi.
Every wrecker has Subarus in the yard and most parts shops have Subaru parts as well unlike VW parts, most of the kids working in supercheap, autobahn, repco etc don;t even know what points or a distributor cap are.
THe amount of garages and roadside assistance guys that don;t know where to start on a vw engine because they can't plug their computer into it is also comical.

why not have both , it works for me.
If your blown your vw motor up, you just put a vw motor back in .
if you want more power etc , go the subaru.
Dont waste your money with a kombi motor. 😂
And if its not broken don't change it.😂

It will run without the TPS but it's a pig getting up hills at speed,if at all...especially in an auto-even more so if you dont run an airflow meter. Like Ian said...have BOTH!! Works for me..well it would if any of them worked,VW or otherwise...🤓

I personally would go the Suby. 8 years and only changing the oil, and the engine is fine.

mick thats not nice ...............