I am checking over my newly purchased 1916 Fuel Injected 1967 bug with the view of finding out as much about the car as possible so that I can get it running as best I can.
I have taken out the plugs and they are quite black and sooty so I am assuming that it is running rich. The plugs are NGK BPR5 EIX and are 19mm reach.
I have a few questions:
1. I seem to remember that their are Type 1 heads that can use 13mm reach plugs such as Bosch W7AC and there are Type 1 heads that use 19mm reach plugs such as the NGK BPR5 EIX. Can somebody explain why the difference and does having heads with the 19mm reach mean that they are better, newer, bigger or something else?
2. I would like to install new Bosch plugs. Can somebody suggest an appropriate Bosch plug for everyday street driving?
Thanks again for any help you can provide.
Best Regards
Greg
Bizarre ·
Generally i believe the 19mm plugs are an improvement to allow more thread to stop stripping
Most of them are 14 x 19 but some big valve heads run 12 x 19
Those NGK "EIX" plugs are Iridium spark plugs, similar to platinum plugs, and so under normal use are good for at least 50000km. In addition, because the centre electrode is so thin, they usually fire better and cleaner than a normal plug, whether it's Bosch, Ngk or Denso.
You can clean the Iridium plugs easily, place them tip down into 20mm or so of carby clean for a couple of hours. You would be much better off finding the cause of the sooty plugs, rather than throwing in new cheap ones. If your 1915 is fuel injected, then there is a good chance it needs correct fuel adjustments made. If an aftermarket EFI system is rich enough to blacken plugs then it is not tuned properly, so book a dyno run. It is worth every single cent of the $300.
Iridium plugs are worth $25ea. Normal plugs go for $5ea. Both of them are crap if your motor isn't tuned.
Lateral ·
Thanks guys!
I love this forum!
I have just taken out all of the plugs to see what state they are in and the plugs in Cylinders 1 and 2 are black sooty and the plugs in cylinders 3 and 4 are not black and sooty and look ok. I have attached images of the plug tips.
I'll give these a clean, regap and reinstall. What gap should they be set too initially? I checked the gaps of the old plugs and they are all around .032.
I also think that the plugs are around 10,000kms old so I am thinking it may be a good plan to simply change them as I am planing to get the tuning checked sometime over the next 2 weeks as I need to get the correct connection hardware for the Atom G4 ECU.
Thanks again guys
Best Regards
Greg
modnrod ·
10000km on Iridiums they are just getting into the groove, only just run in! They will still fire better than normal brand new plugs. They were a good investment, I rekn leave them there mate.
Most people say to gap Iridiums at 40th or even 50th, coz they say a more open plug starts a better burn. All I know is that if you want a BIG spark, even if the ignition system is crap, then 28th - 32th will do it, and the tiny centre electrode of the Iridiums will fire clean anyway, heaps of clean space around the flame kernel.
The more power/revs/boost/bottle you are using, the more ignition power you need to fire it. The closer the plug gap is, the less ignition power you need to get a good spark.
Bizarre ·
what ignition system are you running??
If an MSD or something similar the gap will be bigger
Lateral ·
Hi guys
Thanks for the info modnrod. How long should the NGK's last?
Bizarre, I am not sure as I am still sussing everything out. The car was built by Stenguns (from this forum) Here is the thread for the build http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=64212&page=1 and I am slowly sorting through the complexities of the setup. I think the EFI system was done by VW Village and the distributor has been removed and the new ignition system is located behind the fan housing and I can't see what type it is.
Regards
Greg
Bizarre ·
WOW - 1 and 2 are definitely rich
Being a single throttle body - i wonder - if there is a small air leak on 3 and 4 and the mixture has been richened up to compensate
ian.mezz ·
NO Need to use Iridium spark plugs in your VW ,
just check the number and just get the normal plug .
just not indium
ian.mezz ·
no good checking spark plug colour if your been fluffing around with the car.
Cause if car has a mild cam etc valve over lap will run rich at idle and low speeds
After you put new plugs in .
Need to go for a good fwy drive then while hot pull plugs out and check colour.
Lateral ·
Hi Ian,
Thanks for the info.
I haven't changed anything on the car. I've have only been sussing out what the configuration/specs are of the motor and ancillary hardware such as the EFI etc. I pulled the plugs out simply to see if they all looked "balanced" and looked the same. The car does not start on the first turn of the key and takes upto 3 or 4 turns of the key to get started. Once started, it drives well.
I am really thinking that the best approach to take is to pull out the motor, retorque the heads, check the valves and remove and replace all the EFI parts to ensure that everything is sealed properly and use that as a starting point from which to move forward....what do you reckon?
In your opinion, will the NGK Iridium plugs cause a problem or do you simply think that they are far too expensive for little or no gain?
Also, regarding your comment re a mild cam etc, wouldn't all 4 plugs be black and sooty and not just 1 and 2?
Thanks again for your help.
Best Regards
Greg
ian.mezz ·
So there realy no probs, just 2 to 3 turns to start ?
plugs are cheap, put some standard type plugs in and go for a good drive, some problems with hobby cars, is people don't drive them enough for the engine to get to constant operating temps to give the system a clean burn.
No big deal if it takes 3 turns of the key. it ain't going to give you a sore finger.
After your been driving it , next day try starting it.
do not push throttle down on EFI car.
Lateral ·
Hi Ian
Each turn of the key represents 5 or 6 cranks of the starter motor. Many years ago I had an 1835 with twin Webers that started on the first turn everytime. I would think that it is reasonable to expect the same from an EFI motor.
What do you think about the fouling on 1 & 2 but not 3 & 4?
1303Steve ·
Hi old buddy
It could be uneven fuel pressure on that side of the motor or poorly desinged fuel rails or leaky injectors.
What sort of EFI is it. You should be careful who tunes it.
JEM (Just engine management) are pretty good.
My old yellow with Autronic started instantly.
Steve
Lateral ·
Hi Steve!
I'm in the early stages of figuring out what everything is! The ECU is a G4 Atom and I believe the EFI hardware was built and put together by George at VW Village in 2009.
My feeling is that too many people have mucked around with the EFI over the past 3 years and it just needs somebody who knows what they are doing to sort it out.
I also don't want to waste too much time trying to turn a possible "sow's ear into a silk purse" if there are off the shelf EFI or Weber carby solutions which will be a simple bolt on solution.
I'll give JEM a ring and have a chat. Where are they located ?
Regards
Greg
1303Steve ·
Hi
The EFI should work OK, never heard of Atom before
Off the shelf EFI will still need tuning, if JEM can handle that ECU that is the best way to go.
They are in Ingleburn.
I run 40 mm Dellortos on my sons bug and run as sweet as.
Steve
Doug Sweetman ·
Steve - the g4 atom is done by Link, who have been around a fair while, I believe they do piggy back computers for the ricers too. It should be a full sequential system and bloody nice when sorted.
Steve, you'll appreciate the fact that it has been a long time (more than 20 years) siince I had a VW and I am really looking forward to gettin back into the swing of things. EFI Systems are like listening to somebody speak Spanish....I've got no frigging idea!
That's why I need to find somebody who does...I'll ring JEM today.
Thanks again for all of the great help and information.
Best Regards
Greg
1303Steve ·
Hi
I've heard of Link, I think that they a Kiwi made system.
Where it costs is in dyno time, if a system is cumbersome to set up or the tuner is unfamiliar with it cost dollar$
Steve
ian.mezz ·
plugs first as cheap.
check fuel pressure on start up.
maybe some ones moved timing.
if someone's adjusted idle ,could put throttle position sensor out.
some after market EFI could benefit from having idle air valve. for start up
matberry ·
Don't forget that an air-cooled engine has a few different requirments than a water-cooled one. Mainly the placement of the coolant temperature sender. Not only does it effect the warm-up mapping, but in a hot restart, placement is very critical so as to try and match the actual engine/induction temperatures.
Waterpumpers are more temperature 'stable' during this time.
ian.mezz ·
So if your chasing more then just spark plugs.
I would give Wayne a call at http://www.wpvw.com.au/
If he can not sort out the efi .
he has webbers etc that he can tune to suit.
barls ·
why not go for a visit to vwvillage ie the people that put it together in the first place.
Lateral ·
Thanks again guys.
Barls, I am intending to contact VW Village sometime this week. There are a lot of "little" things that need doing to the car and I am slowly working through the list.
Matt, when to refer to the importance of the placement of the coolant temperature sender, where do you recommend it be placed?
Best Regards
Greg
matberry ·
Lateral wrote:Matt, when to refer to the importance of the placement of the coolant temperature sender, where do you recommend it be placed?
Best Regards
Greg
I go for the same as the VW factory came up with, in the head boss at the top of the tappet cover area.
And about your longer plugs, it means you have later, thicker heads, 041's (IIRC) or 043's. This is the first 3 digits of the VW part # inside the tappet cover recess. These heads have bigger ports and valves and more material at the chamber hence the longer plug.
ian.mezz ·
my temp sender rhs top of head.
ian.mezz ·
just check some of my spark plugs that I have in my VWs
bosch w8ac
bosch w10ac
ngk dpr7ea-9
Lateral ·
Thanks Guys
I have just gotten my hands on the connection cable for the G4 Atom ECU unit to allow connection to a Windows based PC via a USB port.
I also spoke to George at VW Village and he told me that the EFI system was working well except at start up due to the "end float" issue in the crank as this negatively effects the trigger and therefore is probably teh cause of my "starting" issues.
It also appears that the Temp sensor is located near # 2 plug.
I think also that the system has had a "cold start injector" fitted whilst it was in QLD. I have attached a photo. George said that the "cold stat injector" ks not needed as the ECU controls everything at startup.
Anyway, that's the latest!
Best Regards
Greg
ian.mezz ·
that thing with red line sorta looks like a idle air valve.should have a pipe comming off the side going into air claener. or it cold be one like on a falcon
ian.mezz ·
you can check throttle once computer pluged in, key on motor not running . should be 0 then push it to the floor and should read 100%
Lateral ·
Hi Ian
Here are a few more photos of the "thing" and also of the temp sensor location near # 2 plug.
Regards
Greg
matberry ·
Yep, the thingy is defo an idle speed controller. It adjusts the amount of air that can bypass the throttle plate and therefore adjust the idle speed. There will be a target idle speed that the computer will try and meet. As the builder said, the cold start will add more fuel by increasing the injector open time.
Oh, and that is #1 cylinder by the looks in the pic.
Lateral ·
Oops!
Your correct Matt, I should have said cylinder # 1.
Thanks again Matt.
Regards
Greg
ian.mezz ·
some cars, to test and set idle air valve , you take that top little air hose off where it screw clamp holds it on at top.
with car running block black hose with your thumb and the idle should drop down and nearly stall but just run.
then once you take your thumb off the computer should auto rev it up them come back down to idle speed.
if base idle is out that could effect start up.
Lateral ·
Thanks Ian
I'll have a play.
Regards
Greg
Bizarre ·
Ahh.... this motor doesnt run a distributor at all??
Lateral ·
Hi Bizarre,
No distibutor. There is a device that is located behind the fan shround near # 3 cylnder that the leads connect to...maybe somebody can explain to me what type of system it is and how it works.
I figured out that it is a crank triggered ignition system.
When I spoke to George from VW Village, he said that it was a coil and that the ECU handled the triggering of the iginition...I obviously need to do some more reading or perhaps somebody can explain in simple terms, how this type of system works....
Best Regards
Greg
Lateral ·
Ok guys
I thought that I would provide a bit of an update regarding the difficult starting issue with the car.
As I said previously, the car would not start on the first turn of the iginition key (5 or 6 cranks of the starter) or most likely not even until turn 6 of the ignition key. I also noted that it did not seem to be cranking strongly.
As part of my investigation of the ECU unit that is installed, a G4 Atom, I contacted one of the Australian Distributors, Advan Performance at Audurn and spoke to Peter (great guy!) and discussed the issues I was having. He said that it was important that the ECU unit had a strong voltage at start up and that if it didn't, initial starting could be a problem such as the one I had been experiencing.
I had previously had the battery checked and the Alternator and everything checked out ok.
Today I went to had the VDO electronic Speedo fixed and when I went to drive home, the car woudl not crank over! Dead battery!!!!
We jumped started the car and I went and purchased a new battery and installed it.
Now the car starts on the first turn of the key!
I'll do a test first thing in the morning when everything is cold and let you know the results.
Regards
Greg
1303Steve ·
Hi Greg
You might want to check that the alternator is charging.
Steve
Lateral ·
Hi Steve
Yep, had that checked and its putting out about 13.? Volts. The slow cranking has been an issue since I bought the car just before Xmas. At one stage I thought the battery was flat (was not showing Green in the viewing eye) so I put it on the charger and the Green eye came up but the problem was still there. I'll keep an eye on it and let you know what happens.
Regards
Greg
Lateral ·
Hi guys
I did a test first thing this morning at around 8.30am and whilst the car took 3 turns of the key (4-5 cranks per turn) to start the key initially, the starter turned much faster and better that previously. I then took the car on a 45 minute test drive and stopped and started it 6 times. On each occassion the car started on the 1st turn of the key and after about 2-3 cranks.
This is much better than when I first started.
I have a question, the car is fitted with an electric fuel pump that is fitted under the fuel tank, could the problems with the initial start be something to do with the fuel needing to be pumped through the lines for the first time when the car has been sitting for 12 hours?
Regards
Greg
ian.mezz ·
when you turn the key you should hear the pump prime it self, they should hold pressure as there is a pressure valve on fuel line in engine bay, the injetors are closed when motor not going and the pump has a valve..
I would still run a standard type spark plug
Lateral ·
Hi Ian,
I can hear the fuel pump prime when I turn the ingition. I have just tried to trace the fuel line and the bits connected to it and the following bits that are connected after the fuel tank are in order:
1. Electric fuel pump
2. Connects to Fuel Filter (Ryco Z504) - apparently this filer is normally used for power steering systems and is 30 microns. I believe that a 10 micron filter would be more appropriate.
3. Connects to fuel rail above #3
4. Exits fuel rail above #4
5. Connects to fuel rail above #2
6. Exits fuel rail above #1
7. Connect to pressure regulator behind fan housing
8. Exits pressure regulator to ????
That's about it!
Also, why do you suggest running standard plugs?
Regards
Greg
ian.mezz ·
most new cars that run platuim and iridium plugs run a very high voltage ignition system. with each plug having its own coil.
ian.mezz ·
just need a popular car fuel filter that you can buy at supercheaP, repco etc
like a Z200, Z168 ETC
ANY SPECAIL REASON WHY IT HAS THAT FUNNY 2 AIR CLEARER SET UP???
OPPS CAPS ON
Lateral ·
Thanks Ian,
I'm off tomorrow to get a Z200 filter.
I have no idea why the "funny 2 air cleaner" setup as I purchased the car just before xmas...
Thanks again
Regards
Greg
ian.mezz ·
maybe take that air cleaner set up off and see if it starts better with just the throttle body unrestricted.
most after market sports air filters are only one big pod.
Lateral ·
Hi Ian
I'll remove the 2 air cleaners tomorrow and do a test in the morning and let you know. On another issue, I discovered that there is no transmission ground strap. I'll be getting a new one tomorrow and fitting it. I have also booked the car it for a Dyno test/tune to see how the ECU has been setup. The guys I'm using are a distributor of the Atom G4 ECU that is fitted to the car.
Regards
Greg
Lateral ·
Hi Ian,
I removed the airi cleaners and there wasn't any difference.
I have also fitted 2 new transmission ground straps and the with the new battery, the car is starting much much better.
Regards
Greg
ian.mezz ·
can you put a timing light on it and check timing.
Lateral ·
Hi Ian,
I'll connect the timing light tommorrow and report back....what am I looking for?
Lateral ·
Hi Ian,
I just connected the timing light and at idle it is showing 25 degrees and remains pretty well constant when the revs are increased.