I am using my old motor for mock up to check that everything will fit for when I fit the new motor from Rod and have come across the following issue.
I fitted the new Vintage Speed exhaust and I have clearance issues on the left hand side of behind the beaver panel....see the attached photo. I have elongated the flange holes but still have a problem.
I took some measurements from the centre of the engine block to the inside edge of the engine bay where the engine seal sits and the left hand side is about 10mm narrower than the right hand side.
I am thinking that the previous owner who did a complete body off restoration on the car wasn't too accurate with the tape measure 🙂 or perhaps this is normal for all 1967 type 1's.
Whilst I can simply cut of the top of the muffler and weld in a small piece (I have already elongated the flange holes) I would like to know if there is a simple way to simply either:
1. Unbolt the body from the chassis and nudge it over to the left or,
2. loosen the gearbox a bit and nudge it over...I recently fitted new gearbox mounts
Any other ideas would be welcome.
Regards
Greg
vwo60 ·
check to see if the gear box is in the middle of the frame horns, how does the engine sit in the engine bay, access were everything is sitting, this will determine what you have to move, if the gearbox is not central you could slot the holes for the two large bolt that attach the gearbox craddkle to the frame a small amount sideways to center the gearbox.
Sides ·
I'm gonna bet it's a case that both body and trans are off slightly... especially since trans mounts have just been replaced.
Best places to assess the body alignment are:
- bolts and clearance at the rear shock towers
- the curve around the tunnel under the back seat
- measurement from tunnel to A piller door bolts
- the two big (M12?) bolts underneath either side near the framehead
- the two M8 bolts under the fuel tank into the front beam.
Can't trust the pan to body bolt locations since pans have probably been replaced. Plus also realize all of the above had elongated holes from the factory - adjustment has always been designed in.
To shift the body slightly is pretty easy - just loosen all the body and pan bolts by 10mm or so, lift each end of the body separately to break the seal to the pan and then just jiggle away !!!
👍
vwo60 ·
Just check the location of the engine in the engine bay, make sure it is on center,
Lateral ·
Thanks guys
Looks like I have some more checking to do.
Regards
Greg
ian.mezz ·
that's easy,
just cut a small piece out of body to give you a little clearance. or even dolly it over a bit ,After all its only a daily drive.
Lateral ·
👍
hellbugged ·
ian.mezz wrote:that's easy,
just cut a small piece out of body to give you a little clearance. or even dolly it over a bit ,After all its only a daily drive.
😎
Belt it with a sledge
Lateral ·
It's gotta look nice 😵
rose ·
hellbugged wrote:
ian.mezz wrote:that's easy,
just cut a small piece out of body to give you a little clearance. or even dolly it over a bit ,After all its only a daily drive.
😎
Belt it with a sledge
.
he will need the sledge if he fits webbers .😊
vwo60 ·
do it right and do it once.
Lateral ·
That's my motto!
ian.mezz ·
its a highly modified vw , who is to say that the muffler is just a bit big as its a after market part, nothing every fits right once you put a 1600 in a 1500 place eg simple things like tin ware dont even fit 🤪
I would try a stock muffler and see if it dont hit .
You just seem to making a lot of work for yourself.
undoing all the body seems a bit of over kill.
Lateral ·
Hi Ian
I'm leaning toward simply cutting off the top corners of the muffler at an angle and welding in a small piece.....,problem solved!
Regards
Greg
ian.mezz ·
Yep you could do that to .
sometimes when you put a 1600 in a early bug , the drivers side tappet caver sits close to the body to.
Lateral ·
This is the reason that I am using my old motor for mocking everything up so that when I install the new motor there shouldn't be too many surprises 😉
Regards
Greg
jobie ·
Hi Greg,
Could it be that the opposing gear box mount is out (to long). I'm guessing it would only need to be about 2mm for it to make a 5mm (+5, -5) difference at the back.
Thinking along those lines could you just add a 1.5 - 2mm spacer onto the mount on that side to square things up?
This is assuming that the body and chassis are square.
Joel
Lateral ·
Hmmmm, I'll take a look and take some measurements when I remove the mockup motor over the weekend.
If the gearbox is not centred on the frame horn then perhaps it is a simple matter of "nudging" the gearbox a little bit.
I still have a feeling that I will still need to lop the top corners off the muffler so as to provide plenty of clearance from the body.
Regards
Greg
Lateral ·
Ok...I removed the engine and took a lot of measurements...bottom line is it looks as though the body is not sitting on the chassis 100%.
Instead of mucking around trying to straighten everything up I will be lopping the top corners of the muffler off to provide plenty of clearance...problem solved!
Thanks everybody for you suggestions and input.
Regards
Greg
vw54 ·
1600 or bigger engines in pre 67 bodys require to small cuts to make the engine fit
Lateral ·
Two small cuts where???
Craig Torrens ·
Do the wheels look ok under the guards, or does one side stick out more than the other ?
Its not that much work to loosen the body bolts and move the shell over 😵
vwo60 ·
Make certain that the engine is central in the engine bay, this should fix the other issue if the car has not had a hit. worth the effort to do it now.
Sides ·
Taken a measurement at the rear shock towers yet by any chance ???
Requires a tape measure and about 10 minutes under the car....
Lateral ·
Hi Dave
I just dived under the car and took some measurements and photos of the shock towers and the clearance.
See attached photos.
There is about a 7-8mm difference in the clearance between the top bolt of the shock and the body.
Regards
Greg
PS: I wasn't sure what you wanted me to measure when you said "the curve around the tunnel under the back seat" so I took a photo!
Bizarre ·
Why wouldnt you cut the car instead of cutting the muffler?
Wouldnt you just be cutting sheetmetal rather than cutting stainless that need to be welded airtihjt again??
Sides ·
Right, Ok - cool... 7-8mm difference at the shock towers would work out to close to your 10mm right at the back of the car... so assuming it's in the same direction (body too far right ?) then you may just have found a big part of the cause !!!
👍
The bolt holes at the shock tower mounts are all elongated, by around 10mm from memory... so there should be a bit of adjustment.
Re the tunnel curve thing... well bit hard to tell from the pic, but often that curve can highlight if the shell is off to one side or the other. Similar to a curved spirit level bubble really... the corners of the curve would sit closer to the edge of the tunnel one way or the other.
VW body shells weren't all perfect from the factory, but still would've generally been better than 10mm... shock towers probably the most reliable point to check, but if you check all the other points I mentioned you'll get a consistent picture.
But yeah - shifting the body on the pan that amount shouldn't be too hard, tho could also go the sledge or dolly route as others have suggested.
Depends how much you'll care about it down the road really for the effort it'd take.
😎
Lateral ·
Hi Bizarre
I would prefer not to cut the car as I don't really want to damage the paintwork etc and even then I don't think that there will be enough clearance.....
Lateral ·
Hi Dave,
I'm going to wait until I get my hands on the final motor that is going to be installed as I still think that even if I move the body the muffler will still have a clearance issue and I will still need to cut the top of the corners of the muffler.
I am also concerned with how things such as the custom running boards will be affected by moving the body.
I'll keep everybody updated.
Regards
Greg
ian.mezz ·
who's going to see under the car , 😂
shit people cut holes under guards etc to set Weber carbs and to make it easier to get to spark plugs with webbers fitted.
if you pull the back of car over 5ml how much is the front going to move.??
you may also make the body seal leak
Like some one said there was no computer designed Vw in 1967 😂 they were made by a bloke with a hammer 😂
worst case scenario is that your VW is a little bent
Lateral ·
Thanks Ian😵💫
matberry ·
Running boards are bolted to the body and won't be effected
Lateral ·
Oh yeah! Your right!
vwo60 ·
All depends on how well you want the job to come out, you are the one that has to look at the work you have done and be happy with it, i would not cut the body or the muffler as you are treating the symptom not the cause of the problem, center the body and check the engine is central in the engine bay, this way you will not get a surprise when you fit the new engine, vw54 i have a 60 model beetle with a 36HP engine bay, it has a 2054 with 44IDF's and it all fits including closing the engine cover wiithout cutting anything, all i do is remove the tappet covers before i fit the engine to the car.
Lateral ·
Good point
Lateral ·
Hi Guys
What "issues" am I likely to encounter should I choose to reposition the body?
ie: breaking the seal between the body and chassis will cause leaks?
Are there any things that I need to disconnect, unplug etc prior to unbolting the body or is it a simple matter of:
1. unbolt body,
2. raise body a few mm off the pan
3. move body to the left 10mm
4. lower the body
5. Rebolt the body to the pan.
Regards
Greg
HappyDaze ·
If you know exactly how much it needs to needs to move, take an accurate measurement, then un-do the four M10 rear body bolts.
Ideally, a Porto-Power is used , if not available you may be able to push the body across using the good-old VW jack. Use a suitable diameter and length of pipe over the shaft of the jack, and push between the chassis and a 'hard point' on the body. When the measurement is 4-5 mm PAST the desired point, tighten the 4 bolts and release the jack. If not far enough, repeat the process, taking it further before tightening the 4 bolts.
Good luck.
Another Greg
Lateral ·
Thanks Greg!
Do you see a problem in using the distance between the top bolt of the shock towers as a reference point?
Also, I assume the the 4-5mm PAST the desired point is due to some "spring back"?
Also, are you refering to the 4 M10 bolts that are under the rear seat?
I would also think that I would need to loosen the bolts on the trailing arms as well?
Regards
Greg
HappyDaze ·
Doesn't matter what you use for reference points, although if it is the engine bay that is 10mm out, then that's where you should be measuring. If it needs to move 10mm, then that's how far it has to go at the engine bay. The shock tower measurement may only change by 2-3mm?
I find a Plumb-bob is the best way to accurately measure these movements. Mark a 'X' on the floor down from a suitable point on the chassis, then another under another on the body [close to where it needs to move]. Alternatively, you could make a simple 'pointer', attached to the chassis, with the 'pointer' near the part of the body that needs to move.
May require some 'Lateral Thinking'.......had to get that one in.😂
Lateral ·
👍
vwo60 ·
Put your mock up engine block back into the car and use it as a center line to set the engine in the middle of the engine bay, if this is already on center then you might have a problem with the car being hit at one time, i would leave the two of the front bolts loose in place at the front of the car and break the seal, once the seal is broken you should be able to move the back end of the car by simply lifting it and gently moving to wear ever you require it to be, if you are concerned about leaking use a sealing compound between the body and the rubber before you put it back together.
Lateral ·
Thanks mate.
Regards
Greg
Lateral ·
Update:
I decided to unbolt the body from the chassis hoping that it would simply be a matter of me gently pushing the body over the required amount......well, after 2 hours of pushing, jacking, nudging, swearing and levering not a single millimeter was moved!
I'm going to jack up the drivers side oft he car overnight and see if gravity over a number of hours might help.
.....and yes, I'm sure I've loosened every bolt 👍
If somebody doesn't come up with another idea and this doesn't work it's off to Westie to get the muffler modified.
Regards
Greg
Craig Torrens ·
list down all the bolts you have undone and we can check if you have done them all !
Lateral ·
He of little faith!
Ok, I loosened quite a bit the following:
1. 18 (9 x 2) x underneath near the running boards
2. 4 (2 x 2) x underneath in front (Frame head)
3. 4 x inside car under rear seat
4. 2 (1 x 2) x near top of rear shock towers
5. 2 x under fuel tank
Total = 30
Regards
Greg
hellbugged ·
6 under the rear seat 😎
Check the front seat belt anchors don't tie in body and pan
I'm not so sure just loosening them will be enough either...... The heater channel bolts normally pierce the gasket when inserted, so at least those would need removing completely IMO
Craig Torrens ·
Lateral wrote:He of little faith!
Ok, I loosened quite a bit the following:
1. 18 (9 x 2) x underneath near the running boards
2. 4 (2 x 2) x underneath in front (Frame head)
3. 4 x inside car under rear seat
4. 2 (1 x 2) x near top of rear shock towers
5. 2 x under fuel tank
Total = 30
Regards
Greg
What about the two under the rear seat that screw into the rear torsion housing ? They are located in the corners near where the top of the back seat (pivots) mounts to the sides. So total of 6 inside.
Lateral ·
Hi Craig
I just had another look and inside and can't see the 2 extra bolts you mentioned......remember that the car is a 1967 model.
Can you send me a photo?
Daimo, I'll check the seat belt bolts tomorrow. I removed a few of the heater channel bolts to see how much movement I would have and there seemed to be enough for me to be able to move the body and leave the bolts in.
Regards
Greg
hellbugged ·
You can see them just above the torsion bar caps from outside the car Greg
From inside the car they are right under the back edge of the rear seat, higher and further back from the other 4..... Adjacent to the hinge for the top half of the seat
Craig Torrens ·
Greg, I have sent you a photo of the bolts in my 63 and 68 model.
1303Steve ·
Craig Torrens wrote:What about the two under the rear seat that screw into the rear torsion housing ? They are located in the corners near where the top of the back seat (pivots) mounts to the sides. So total of 6 inside.
Hi
A lot of cars from the factory never had bolts in that location.
Steve
matberry ·
^^ don't know about that Steve, pre 60 (or there abouts) had 4 M10 (2 each side) and post had the two.
Lateral ·
Hi guys
I had a look at Craig's photos and inside the car and guess what?
I found the 2 "rogue" frigging bolts!
Lucky I did as I was about to get the biggest baddest Porta Power possible!
Anyway, I'll loosen these and see what happens and let you all know the results.
Regards
Greg
Craig Torrens ·
1303Steve wrote:
Craig Torrens wrote:What about the two under the rear seat that screw into the rear torsion housing ? They are located in the corners near where the top of the back seat (pivots) mounts to the sides. So total of 6 inside.
Hi
A lot of cars from the factory never had bolts in that location.
Steve
Hi Steve, I think you will find only late models didn't have them ie 74,75,76.
1303Steve ·
Hi
Sorry I forgot we were talking about biblical cars here, correction, my 72 & 73 bugs never had them, not sure about earlier cars, I always fit them to my own cars, the hole usually has a bit of tape over it.
Steve
matberry ·
Ahh, your talking about that foam filled rubbish that we don't even consider to be beetles, more like a poor Indian copy........ 😂
1303Steve ·
Yeh the ones that have all the good parts to make your old stuff seem a little modern
Lateral ·
Update!
I totally removed the extra bolts and it looks as though there is not really any room in the holes so they will need to be "elongated" if I can moved the body.
I also found that the drivers side seat belt bracket was hitting the body so I removed it.
I then lifted all of the glued down carpet.
I then pushed, shoved and levered to no avail.
I have not yet totally removed any of the other bolts and would prefer not to if I don't need to but I am thinking that I may need to.
What are the best locations to use as "leverage" points?
Regards
Greg
hellbugged ·
Lever under the corners...start at the rear
If I mention the sledge again will it be taken in jest this time round 😘
1303Steve ·
Hi
Would it help if you put a big bit of wood across the rear of the car, about under the bumper bracket and lift the body with a jack and then try moving the body
Steve
matberry ·
I'd try wedging between body and shock mounts
Craig Torrens ·
1303Steve wrote:Hi
Would it help if you put a big bit of wood across the rear of the car, about under the bumper bracket and lift the body with a jack and then try moving the body
Steve
Yep this is the best way.
You can then slide the body on the wood to move it over.
Lateral ·
Update!
Ok, I had a sit down and a cuppa and have done the following:
1. Removed all of the bolts inside the car
2. Loosened bolts near rear shocks even more.
3. Loosened heater channel bolts even more.
4. Jacked the body up using a piece of timber between the jack and the body along the side under the doors in order to break the seal....I could see the body seperating from the chassis by about 4-5 mm!
5. I then used a feeler gauge to slide between the gasket and the body and chassis to see if there was any type of adhesive...there doesn't appear to be.
6. I then had a look around the rear of the car on the drivers side where the return fuel tubing bends up from the underneath the chassis and is screwed to the body...I will unscrew this.
So, in summary, things are looking better.
My plan is to get hold of another trolley jack with the view of jacking up both sides of the car in order to break the gasket seal and then gently lever the car to the left...
I'll let you know how I go.
Regards
Greg
I am about to
Lateral ·
Ok, it's great when having a bit of lunch and a think can provide you with the solution.
Ok, I got the other trolley jack and jacked up both sides of the car so that the space between the chassis seal and the body at the rear was at least 6-7mm. I used long pieces of timber so that more of the front was also jacked up at the same time (as per the photo).
So far so good.
I then tried to push the body over but after 10 minutes it was obvious that it just wasn't going to happen.
I then had a look in the engine compartment to see how I could lever the body over somehow using the chassis as the point of leverage.
As I have the old motor in the car so that I could determine the centre, I used the old faithful VW jack and a rubber hoist pad to "push" the body to the left....after some gentle jacking, I heard a slight crack (hopefully nothing important broke!) and the body is now able to be moved over the required amount. (see photo).
I'm planning on moving it an few mm more than required and leaving the jack in place overnight and then dropping everything down and tightening up a few bolts, fitting the exhaust and seeing what the results are...hopefully exhaust tail pipes will now be in the centre and the muffler will clear the body.
Thanks again for everyone's help.
Regards
Greg
DubbyDo ·
Now there's a great view while havin a Pooh!
Craig Torrens ·
😂......every garage needs one for when the VW gives you the SH*Ts 😉
You're nearly there Greg....Its well worth the effort to have everything now square in the engine bay 😎
vwo60 ·
well worth the effort.
Lateral ·
Yep can't agree more.👍
I fitted the Vintage Speed exhaust and it now looks like it will have enough clearance without the need to cut the muffler and the tailpipes look great and centred!
I'll do a trial bolt down to make sure it all stays where it's supposed to!
Thanks again for everyone's input.
Regards
Greg
vw54 ·
Cut the body I have some pics some where just wait till I find them
vwo60 ·
How did it turn out ?.
Lateral ·
It seems to be "springing" back a bit.
For example, if I move the body 10mm to the left, bolt it down, it springs back 5mm. I think it is due to the fact that I am using the engine block as one of the jacking points and the "spring back" is due the banana mounts.
The clearance is much better now than it was but I feel that I can get a few more mm.
Regards
Greg
Sides ·
Don't forget to suss out the front too Greg...
👍
vw54 ·
found the pics of small body cut
Lateral ·
Thanks Dave. Will do.
Regards
Greg
ian.mezz ·
Sides wrote:Don't forget to suss out the front too Greg...
👍
yeah next thing you know that the front wheels are rubbing 🥲