OK, so i'm giving alot of consideration to engine/trans build at the moment, and while i've done abit of research into what I'm after, I'm not 100% on everything. So my queries are as follows.
My initial plan at the moment is to build/get built a 2332 with a budget of around $5000-$6000. My plan is to find a buildier/mechanic to talk with and order all the parts myself, then get them to build and install the unit.
Goal would be 150-160rwhp, more if possible with the budget, of course, haha. Would be a daily w/about 100Km at most highway driving. But possibly more every now and again.
Also budgeting about $4000-$5000 for box.
My queries are as follows:
- Would a Type 4 enginer give me more giddy-up for the same sort of $$$?
- I've spoken with Rancho and they are confident they can provide a box for the power I'm going for that would be good for street and strip use. Alot of aussies dont have a great deal of good to say about the rancho boxes but alot of Yanks say they have no issues. I dont think I would be dragging weekly. Maybe a few runs per year (read 3-5 times a year). Are these boxes really that bad? If they were around the same price to get a good box built I wouldnt even consider them, but we are talking $1000's cheaper.
- Given that I require reliability, I've heard 091 Bus boxes are great if built right. Would I be looking around the same price to build one of these up?
Theres alot more I could ask but I think thats the ground work at the moment. I've waffled on enough as it is. Any help would be appreciated.
Thank you, Allbones.
Allbones ·
Also, will be running 95-98 octane.
Bone ·
If MY gearbox budget is $4-5000, I wouldn't even consider 091 box I would go straight to subaru 5 speed from Todd @ subarugears. Coupled to a ej subi motor you get the power, reliability, smoothness and good fuel consumption. This would be the only way I would go if I was to build a streeter or another Baja. A lot less $$$ going Subaru power IMO.
Allbones ·
Bone wrote:If MY gearbox budget is $4-5000, I wouldn't even consider 091 box I would go straight to subaru 5 speed from Todd @ subarugears. Coupled to a ej subi motor you get the power, reliability, smoothness and good fuel consumption. This would be the only way I would go if I was to build a streeter or another Baja. A lot less $$$ going Subaru power IMO.
Yeh, I havent given a great deal of consideration to suburu as I'd really like to stay aircooled (call it the purist in me).
ITs also the same reason I havent given much consideration to the type 4's. The engines going in a beetle, so it should be a type 1 engine pushing it along. haha.
Its pretty safe to say I'd like to stay air cooled.
cnfabo ·
Mr allbones,
First up welcome to AVD....
Now your budget is a bit small for a honking stroker engine think $9000+ that's with some used parts...as for 150+ well maybe you have been reading yanky forums as there numbers are always higher then ours,if you read around the Aussie forums you will see stroker engines will range from 90-140whp which is a big difference between the two and also a big difference from what you wanted..I would suggest talking to some Australian engine builders but don't get sold on a price,price and ponies are two different things......
Now as for a gearbox you will not need to spend $5000+ on a box as this will cover a full race box..if I was you I would ring Dave "dangerous muffin man"butler ,he is on here as dangerous and have a chat with him....
Good luck
Fabo
Allbones ·
These are some of the parts I am looking at at the moment to give all a better understanding. Of course though, I will talk further with whoever I decide to build with.
Box: (as advised by Rancho salesman Mike Herbert, not sure if any relation with Mark Herbert, haha)
Rancho Pro Street Plus
3:78 1ST GEAR SET
3:88K RING & PINION
C/M PINION PLATE OR NUT
SWING AXLE (SWAY-A-WAY)
IRS (SUPER SPLINES WITH
BUS C/V FLANGES)
4-SPIDER SUPER DIFF
H/D ALUMINUM SIDE COVERS
WELDED 3-4 HUBS
STEEL SHIFT FORKS
HARDENED KEYS
WELDED T/O SHAFT
Total: $1894
Allowence has also been made for disk brakes all around ($1000 allowed for going by the kits on Vollks)
And $500 or so allowence for a Kaffer Bar set up in the rear.
None of the prices above include shipping/duty or exchange rate.
bajachris88 ·
Add an extra couple grand at least for other internal nick nacs (Rods, Rockers, Pushrods, pushrod tubes, Cam, Lifters, oil pump, cam drive gear set, cam bearings, crank bearings, rod bearings, crank hardware, distributor drive shaft, oil cooler (assumed dog house), oil cooler stand, cylinder tin, fan shroud, rocker covers, breather kit, flywheel, gland nut and washer, clutch kit, case fastening kit, ignition setup/system (hypo-dissy, coil), crank pulley, alt stand, alternator, P&B Kit, gudeon pin retainers, HD fan).
Thats where i got stung most!! The go fast bits were the cheapest components compared to the sum of the nick nacs. (And i'm still getting stung as i dribble in bits to the collection to build a go-go motor.
Not trying to dampen your spirits. Go for it, buy the bits and make it work! 🙂
Smiley ·
Allbones wrote:- Would a Type 4 enginer give me more giddy-up for the same sort of $$$?
Power would be similar, but it would last 3 times as long.
Smiley 🙂
Allbones ·
bajachris88 wrote:Add an extra couple grand at least for other internal nick nacs (Rods, Rockers, Pushrods, pushrod tubes, Cam, Lifters, oil pump, cam drive gear set, cam bearings, crank bearings, rod bearings, crank hardware, distributor drive shaft, oil cooler (assumed dog house), oil cooler stand, cylinder tin, fan shroud, rocker covers, breather kit, flywheel, gland nut and washer, clutch kit, case fastening kit, ignition setup/system (hypo-dissy, coil), crank pulley, alt stand, alternator, P&B Kit, gudeon pin retainers, HD fan).
Thats where i got stung most!! The go fast bits were the cheapest components compared to the sum of the nick nacs. (And i'm still getting stung as i dribble in bits to the collection to build a go-go motor.
Not trying to dampen your spirits. Go for it, buy the bits and make it work! 🙂
Yeh, the Crank/engine kit does have a large amount of the bearings with it. I do realise there will be more.
I'm not pro but i'd say so. I have heard of alot of people simply doing the parts collection first simply because its too big of an outlay for alot of people to pay upfront. Then once you have all the bits start the assembly or find someone you trust to do it for you (as you have said).
hellbugged ·
Have a look at some of the complete engines rod Penrose has for sale
Type 4.... Too expensive !
matberry ·
Type 4 are for trucks IMO unless you spend a motza for real heads or are going forced induction.
Go to DB for a type 1 trans
Speak to different engine builders, as generally you get what you pay for, and ask yourself why is there such a wide difference in price, and also ask the builder how long will it last, even try and speak to other owners that have used thier products.
I'd go with a quality US kit that your preferred engine builder is happy to work with. But be very careful, some cheaper parts WILLcost you more in the long run
vwo60 ·
Have a talk to Dave Butler on the gold coast, he is a machinist and has a good workshop at home, he builds the best gearboxes and engines, also concider using crankshaft engineering at Browns Plains in Brisbane for balancing and other machining that dave does not do, you could either assemble it your self or get dave to assemble it, get his advice on the parts best suited to your application.
Smiley ·
hellbugged wrote:Type 4.... Too expensive !
But they last a lot longer than a Type 1 so it will work out cheaper in the end.
But they last a lot longer than a Type 1 so it will work out cheaper in the end.
Smiley 🙂
That depends on many factors Smiley
Aussie Dubbin ·
That DRD SITE LOOKS GREAT DOESN'T IT, opps caps lock. I was looking at 2276 stuff but, long blocks about 3-4k great. Turnkeys 6-7k great. I have no idea about quality, durability or actual hp figures and torque curves, but looks lots cheaper than what you can buy here.
I know what you mean about staying air cooled. The saddest part is a 7k wrx engine ise pretty great too, replacement parts readily available and cheaper too. Tunability is all mainstream contemporary, and a factory matched box too.
Hmmm?
1916baja ·
You have to account for import duty and shipping with an engine from the states too. I think with a $4000 engine you will probably get stung with $1500 import duty then there is shipping the damn thing on top of that! I've done alot of the research about doing this over the years and it always comes back to rod being the cheapest.
Paulc1964au ·
Having a 1776 built at the moment, I bought most parts myself and also bought some bargains from a mate which saved me around $1k. The only second hand parts to go on the motor are the twin delortos.
My budget was $6k and with labour on the engine and installation plus replacement of fuel line, accelerator and clutch cables and the installation of gauges I am up around $8.5k and it isn't a race motor just a nice engine
vwo60 ·
Eliminate most of the labour costs by learning to do it yourself.
Klaus ·
Look on thesamba for 2 nd hand engines , good deals turn up all the time ... I run a type 4 in my bus mildly modified has 77 rwhp ..daily driver and very reliable but to gain more hp as said it gets expensive with heads being the restriction but can be pushed close to 3 ltr
matberry ·
vwo60 wrote:Eliminate most of the labour costs by learning to do it yourself.
^^ that's all well and good Shayne, and I have also recommended that plan of action many times, but in the real world it can become an expensive learning experience if a mistake is made on the many different details required for a quality build. It's in the details like getting the cam thrust right or the fit of the lifters in the lifter bores or timing gear lash, even deburring the sus quality of new parts, or...or...well, you get the idea. I heard a good one recently where no matter what the experienced VW engine builder did, he couldn't get the flywheel O-ring to fit the new crank due to the cheapo cranks lack of chamfer....it was experience that stopped him completing the build and try and find a solution.
1916baja ·
I have always thought I'd like to have a crack at building my own engine but only if I was rebuilding a stocker. I'd never go near building my current race engine, Ive got too much invested in it to cock it up! The way I see it, it's best to leave the hipo stuff you the people who know what they are doing.
Subarugears ·
Allbones wrote:
Bone wrote:If MY gearbox budget is $4-5000, I wouldn't even consider 091 box I would go straight to subaru 5 speed from Todd @ subarugears. Coupled to a ej subi motor you get the power, reliability, smoothness and good fuel consumption. This would be the only way I would go if I was to build a streeter or another Baja. A lot less $$$ going Subaru power IMO.
Yeh, I havent given a great deal of consideration to suburu as I'd really like to stay aircooled (call it the purist in me).
ITs also the same reason I havent given much consideration to the type 4's. The engines going in a beetle, so it should be a type 1 engine pushing it along. haha.
Its pretty safe to say I'd like to stay air cooled.
FYI, Subarugears have developed billet adapter plates and flywheels for type i and type iv aircooled engines to be coupled to the Subaru 5 speed transmission. Keen to have someone with a beetle fit up a combo and try it out for the world to see. We could do a deal.
Naturally, if you want to stay VW, Dangerous is your man.
ian.mezz ·
usa motors are ok
Rancho trans ok
our little oval is upto about $12000 all up , motor trans & car
vwo60 ·
That's what a hobby like ours is all about, learn about different things all the time, you can get the engine builder to do the first part of the assembly, deck height, ect, ect and then assemble the engine yourself with his guidance, it is a simple engine if care is taken during assembly, thousands are build by people every were, or you can always pay to have it built for you and end up with crap job like the one that you had to rebuild for a customer Matt, the fact the flywheel did not fit is a issue withinn its self, this should have shown up on the preassembly of the engine and could have been taken care of in a few minuets in the lathe before assembly. I had Dave Butler machine the deck height on my new case for the 2275 , i also used Crankshaft engineering to renitride my crank and finnish grinding it to suit the bearings when the case was preassembled with the bearings installed, there is a lot of expertise out there, it is just a matter of finding it.
vvwbeetle ·
Allbones
I have a 2332, putting out 151hp on the dyno, not a revy engine, max power just over 6500rpm, awesome street driver with heaps of torque, happy to discuss any questions
ps. not my daily driver-but on the run to Valla last year avg close to 9ltrs/100km with a 4 speed box sitting at 3500 rpm bang on 100km/h.
Simon
matberry ·
Shayne, you better read the post, the crank didn't have enough chamfer for the O-ring to work, who pre-assembles with the O-ring? I know I don't. I also use the best in the business, Crankshaft Engineering and DB, and have been doing so since the early nineties. Stop tring to argue or the sake of it. It's hardly constructive. My point was that the parts are often an issue, in this case they were customer supplied, hence the statement that often cheap parts can cost you more in the long run.
I love the fact that the OP wants a hipo VW. They are more than capable on the street when built right, and can live when properly maintained. Yes they are a bit more work to build and maintain, but doing it with aircooled has a big advantage with simplisity and light weight IMO. As Simon said above, good fuel economy is also very achievable.
DakDak67 ·
Big bore engines rock, mine gets thrashed regularly and has done for over two and a half years and god knows how long it was flogged before I got the car as the previous owner told me how he regularly drove the car over the Ton. I laugh every time some douche tells me it won't last or it will blow up because I drive it hard... Dicks.
Its a Scat 2276 , 44 idf's perfect street engine with a sweet 850 rpm idle , and a flat torque curve all the way to 6k .
135hp / 107rwhp . This is in a Split bus, and it will pull in third off idle no problem. A high lift top end screamer would be useless . Oh and a Rancho pro street box and Kennedy stage 1 that's done a zillion miles. So that's my US motor.
Allbones ·
vvwbeetle:
Cheers man, I appreciate the offer. By the sound of it, you have achieved exactly what I want! So its do-able 😀
matberry:
It was actually reading one of your earlier posts on the forum that I decided I wanted to go the 2332 route.
DakDak67:
Just reaffirming me more, I love it, haha. Great to get some feed back on the rancho boxes too! Did you ship it or grab it from das resto?
DakDak67 ·
The box came direct from Rancho in the US as that's where the car came from. I personally know the guy who built the car and I know the history going back about 12 years and over 100,000 kms.
My friend in the US has a 270 HP 2276 turbo donk that copes fine with one .
If DB can build a box to suit your needs that would be a great option too , it may work out cheaper. I'll shortly be dropping my box off to him for some TLC . Call around and go from there I guess 🙂
vwo60 ·
I am not argueing for the sake of it, i must be the only person to trial fit the fly wheel with the oring in place, it makes perfect sense to me to do it that way, other wise you would have no way of knowing that it is damaged in the final assembly, easier to recifiy than having to dismantle the whole engine when it is on the bench in pieces. my point is constructive as it alerts people to the trap of fitting the fly wheel without the oring in place during the mock up.
Allbones ·
Out of curiosity, is anyone in australia running a 90x94 combo on the street?
matberry ·
I have a client with an 88 x 94 that I built and it's great to drive, very mild cam and goes really well, in a trike too. The 90 crank is available but a damn tight squeeze. You end up with about 1/2 the camshaft diameter
In response to Shayne with the O-ring during trial assy, I only use them once as I don't like the idea of the O-ring getting reused/damaged. Maybe with light of this thread (and the news from the guy with the issues) I may change my technique.
1916baja ·
Keep in mind also, your car is slammed! You suspension setup is not ideal for 150+ hp, you may need to rethink some of that too.
Allbones ·
1916baja wrote:Keep in mind also, your car is slammed! You suspension setup is not ideal for 150+ hp, you may need to rethink some of that too.
I do realise this.
Will probably half the height its lowered, add a kaffer bar, disks & use drop plates instead of rotating splines to get the drop I want.
Allbones ·
matberry wrote:The 90 crank is available but a damn tight squeeze. You end up with about 1/2 the camshaft diameter.
Ahh ok, Guessing that will impact reliability/strength somewhat, not really what I am going for, haha.
matberry ·
The bigger you build it, for reliability, the more you de-tune it as the crank journals are smaller therfore flex more as the stroke and rpm increase. So it becomes a complex game of trade offs. I recommend lower rpms as the engine gets bigger as the forces involved is what makes the bigger combos less reliable.Pushing a beetle along takes very little power, even a 1776 can be an enjoyable experience, live long and go hard. The combo in my '59 is very strong in both performance and reliability as it's components have been chosen with these goals in mind, it runs cool, fast and isn't so highly stressed as I put the best parts where necessary and continually aimed for light and strong. It's 90.5 pistons are lighter than 94's, the rods are light, the gudgeon pins are light, the flywheel and clutch is light, even the clutch bolts and washers are light, also by using a mild stroke, the crank has larger VW journals which makes it stronger, all these things IMO reduce stresses. And let me tell you, it's plenty fast.
Aussie ·
vvwbeetle wrote:Allbones
I have a 2332, putting out 151hp on the dyno, not a revy engine, max power just over 6500rpm, awesome street driver with heaps of torque, happy to discuss any questions
ps. not my daily driver-but on the run to Valla last year avg close to 9ltrs/100km with a 4 speed box sitting at 3500 rpm bang on 100km/h.
Simon
What are the motor specs? Sounds nice 😎
Paulc1964au ·
matberry wrote:The bigger you build it, for reliability, the more you de-tune it as the crank journals are smaller therfore flex more as the stroke and rpm increase. So it becomes a complex game of trade offs. I recommend lower rpms as the engine gets bigger as the forces involved is what makes the bigger combos less reliable.Pushing a beetle along takes very little power, even a 1776 can be an enjoyable experience, live long and go hard. The combo in my '59 is very strong in both performance and reliability as it's components have been chosen with these goals in mind, it runs cool, fast and isn't so highly stressed as I put the best parts where necessary and continually aimed for light and strong. It's 90.5 pistons are lighter than 94's, the rods are light, the gudgeon pins are light, the flywheel and clutch is light, even the clutch bolts and washers are light, also by using a mild stroke, the crank has larger VW journals which makes it stronger, all these things IMO reduce stresses. And let me tell you, it's plenty fast.
Matt,
I spoke to a lot of people and was recommended to build a1776 am really looking forward to the first drive in a few weeks