Morris 850 vs 'You Know What'

This is an ad for the new Morris 850 (not yet called the Mini), from the SMH, August 1962.

They must have been very aware they were competing against the Volkswagen. 'It's £200 cheaper than You Know What.'

And at the bottom, see how it says 'Morris 850 - THE PEOPLE's CAR.'

Well....I'm sure that "You Know Who" will have plenty to say about that...........

Oh yeah!!, and how did they shape up against "YOU-KNOW- WHAT" at Bathurst [Armstrong 500] in 1963????

There it is !!

4 people in the back of a mini!!!!!

i think they were dreaming, a mechanical nightmare like the mini.

ancientbugger wrote:4 people in the back of a mini!!!!!

Just about to say the same thing.

How many 62 minis do you see on the road. ? Theres your answer. My2c

ancientbugger wrote:4 people in the back of a mini!!!!!

Yep. More leg room than a beetle as well, but gutless compared to a beetle in standard form. I've got an 850 import in my shed (not mine) and it's actually fun to drive....

Cruise all day at 50 Mph?

I would rather cruise all day at 62Mph. (on roads with 100Kph speed limit)

Put a 1320 into an 850 THEN see how it goes.......

They certainly chose their words carefully...."cruise"....
would have been more truthful as..."bruise" ...or......."struggle".
62mph/100kph was...."possible"... but you could feel the poor little think wearing out beneath you.
A mini 850 was in need of a rebuid after 50kmiles/80k.kms. A car designed to drive to the pub and
back in the UK didn't translate well to Australian normal usage. Used examples were bought and sold off
pretty quickly.
In 1963, a mate and I drove one from Sydney to Cairns and back, on our 3 weeks annual leave... we
needed the full 3 weeks. What a slow and uncomfortable trip...those little 10 inch wheels are a chiropractors dream.
The later Australian made Mokes were given 13 inch wheels.
The gear "stick" was very long and its main job was to threaten the passenger
...every acceleration/de-acceleration, every pot-hole it waved around furiously demanding more and more
personal space as the car wore out.....eventually being useless for changing gears.
I think that the Vw of the time, with its long overdrive top gear, could rightly claim to ..."cruise"...
With the Mini 850 the reality fell far short of the advertising hype.

There's no doubting that a mini is fun to drive, we had a 998cc cooper back in the UK and it was the best car around town, hitting roundabouts without slowing down, absolutely loved it. A nightmare to work on though and not for long drives🙅 Would definitely have another one should one become available.

At least the crankshaft was cheap, you could make a new one from a wire coat hanger.

Hmm, how many of todays cars owe their design to the mini, quite a few I'd say, and lets face it, were they ever meant to do really long trips, 50+ years on would you buy a Getz or simmilar if you were going to do lots of long trips, hardly think so.

At least the Getz is a reliable design, a lot people do long trips because they are capable design.

donn wrote:Hmm, how many of todays cars owe their design to the mini, quite a few I'd say, and lets face it, were they ever meant to do really long trips, 50+ years on would you buy a Getz or simmilar if you were going to do lots of long trips, hardly think so.

Probably nil

AA003 wrote:

donn wrote:Hmm, how many of todays cars owe their design to the mini, quite a few I'd say, and lets face it, were they ever meant to do really long trips, 50+ years on would you buy a Getz or simmilar if you were going to do lots of long trips, hardly think so.

Probably nil

So the engine / transmition layout dosn't count?

vwo60 wrote:At least the Getz is a reliable design, a lot people do long trips because they are capable design.

It may be "more reliable" but then we are 50+ years down the track so one would hope so.

Let's say, that in 50 + years there would be only one Getz to see .... in the Hyundai museum...if...😁

HappyDaze wrote:Oh yeah!!, and how did they shape up against "YOU-KNOW- WHAT" at Bathurst [Armstrong 500] in 1963????

Yes, took them a couple of years to sort out - in 1966 9 of the top 10 places at Bathurst were Mini's.

Willie wrote:

HappyDaze wrote:Oh yeah!!, and how did they shape up against "YOU-KNOW- WHAT" at Bathurst [Armstrong 500] in 1963????

Yes, took them a couple of years to sort out - in 1966 9 of the top 10 places at Bathurst were Mini's.

Yes, but they weren't Morris 850s...they were big-engined Cooper 'S' race cars, with Porsche baulk-ring synchro gearboxes!

I believe every word 😂😂😂😂😂

As Greg said, the Cooper S was a totally different car, with a much larger and highly tuned engine, and a much higher price to match. In Volkswagen terms, they were like the Type 3 1600TS (but even faster) compared with the basic 1200 Beetle. I am not questioning the Cooper S, which has become legendary.

This post concerns the little Mini 850, which was pitched directly against the Volkswagen on the local market, undercutting it in price and even being referred to as 'the people's car.' Volkswagen Australia introduced the basic Standard Beetle in 1962 in a (failed) attempt to match the Morris 850. People preferred to pay more for a Deluxe Beetle.

The Volkswagen 1200 of Barry Ferguson/Bill Ford defeated the Morris 850 of Don Holland/Lindsay Little in the 1963 Armstrong 500 (the Under-£900 Class A). Other VWs finished 3rd, 4th and 5th (Greg was fifth).

Similar story in 1964 - three of the four Morris 850s retired with mechanical problems, and the surviving Morris 850 was beaten by three VWs. However that year Class A was Vauxhall Vivas in the first six places! Both the VW and Morris 850 were obsolete as production race cars by then. Morris moved on to the bigger, faster and more expensive Cooper, while VW no longer competed. There was only one more air-cooled VW at Bathurst after that, a solitary Type 3 1600S sedan in the $1801-$2100 Class B in 1969. It got flogged by the much faster Datsun 1600s and Ford Cortinas. And the Lennox Motors Golf that ran from 1976-80 is another story.

well the basic beetle had an engine 40% larger than the 1963 basic mini so you would hope there was some kind of advantage. But it wasnt a runaway race was it. Was there not a mini leading the class until the last corner when it went belly up? Did any other cars roll at Murrays corner that year Greg? A bit before my time I wasnt there but I have a ye olde VHS video of highlights.

Phil74Camper wrote:And the Lennox Motors Golf that ran from 1976-80 is another story.

Didn't Chris Heyer also run a Passat 1300?

amazeer wrote:Did any other cars roll at Murrays corner that year Greg?

Yes Chris, our VW went over at Murray's...however, it continued to race [without losing a place], and was mechanically un-damaged. Not so for the Mini....it was not able to continue.

Performance-wise, the Mini had the edge on the Beetle, but endurance-wise, the Beetle was far better.

What? i didn`t say anything :-)

edit-> ok youtube "Endaf Owens" :-)

Oh & my absolute favourit car of all time, eats nearly every other car it`s run against

AA003 wrote:

Phil74Camper wrote:And the Lennox Motors Golf that ran from 1976-80 is another story.

Didn't Chris Heyer also run a Passat 1300?

Hi Phill,

There was a Passat 1500TS run in 1974, entered by Orange Motors and driven by Davis Seldon and Peter Webster. It retired after 101 laps.

Yes, in 1975 Chris Heyer entered a Passat 1300. This was because the classes were reorganised, with Class A below 1300cc and Class B 1301-200cc. A Passat 1300 was competitive in Class A, but a Passat 1500 would have been outclassed by 2-litre cars in Class B. The Passat 1300 broke after less than 60 laps.

For 1976 the 1300 Passat was back, driven by Bernie Stack and Keith Poole. It broke its suspension after 19 laps. Chris Heyer entered the Lennox Motors Golf 1600, co-driven by Peter Lander (no relation?). They wanted to race with a GTI engine and head but could not get it CAMS homologated. They had to race a tuned 1600 LS engine instead. It broke after 38 laps. It returned in 1977 and '78, breaking both times, but finally finished the race in 1979, 6th in class behind Geminis and Escorts. It raced once more in '80 but broke again (it caught fire in pit lane). It failed to qualify for 1981. From 1982-86, Chris Heyer raced an Audi 5+5. The Golf was sold to Anthony Healey and later Steve Muller.

Yes the very early categories at Bathurst were split by price - so the Beetle 1200 and Mini 850 competed together in the lowest class, £900 Class A. That's why VW raced the Standard, not the Deluxe, which would have been in the next class - with the same 1200 engine and more weight!

Yes the Mini 850 had a smaller engine but the cars had similar power/weight ratios and had similar speeds. In practice the Ferguson VW and Little Mini swapped the clss lead dozens of times through the afternoon. The Mini would usually lead down Conrod, and the VW would pass under brakes at Murrays and lead up Pit Straight. The Mini would usually repass up Mountain straight or across the top. They were often side-by-side.

By 1964 the air-cooled VWs were no longer competitive, finisjhing behind Vauxhaull Vivas in their class, and Beetles never raced again after that. The sole Type 3 1600S in 1969 was in the $1800-$2200 Class B, and got flogged by Datsun 1600s. After that the categories were arranged by engine size, not purchase price.

Who knows, with Holden and Ford pulling out of Australian manufacturing, V8 Supercars could die and we could return to this kind of production car category racing.

well said Phil,,, great info too, thanks.

& yeah it was pretty funny watching the Beetle vs the mini, nearly 400 more ccs than the brick & yet pretty-well neck & neck the whole way,,, was a great advert for the mini i reckon

& yes the single leading 7" drum brakes on those early bricks were more like "Barely-retarders" than stoppers :-)

even the early 7" cooper discs were shocking, the later twin leading drums were better :-) & they were shocking too :-)

ancientbugger wrote:4 people in the back of a mini!!!!!

They are not whole people,
just a load of human heads.