Hey guys
Does anyone know of commodore disc brake conversion for IRS pan or any other big rotor conversion.
chokeau 路
Aussieveedubbers 路 Tech Talk
Big brakes
https://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/threads/106013/big-brakes
Smiley 路
Yeah sure.chokeau wrote:Hey guys
Does anyone know of commodore disc brake conversion for IRS pan or any other big rotor conversion.
Just have a read of my thread, I have them on my Baja.
Page 33 about halfway down.
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=80275&page=33
Smiley 馃檪
Bizarre 路
You talking front or back?
Ford brakes work better for the rear
But the question is why?
A lot of work, and unless BIG horse power is there, is it really needed??
Ford brakes work better for the rear
But the question is why?
A lot of work, and unless BIG horse power is there, is it really needed??
vlad01 路
Smiley wrote:Yeah sure.chokeau wrote:Hey guys
Does anyone know of commodore disc brake conversion for IRS pan or any other big rotor conversion.
Just have a read of my thread, I have them on my Baja.
Page 33 about halfway down.
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=80275&page=33
Smiley 馃檪
wow! I been playing with the exact same setup few months ago, but didn't pursue it all the way since I got news of bolt on suby rear conversion is close to being or might be already available? And thats with proper billet hubs, not soft VW ones.
Anyway didn't know anyone else tried this before. Way cool to see it works 馃憤 I would much prefer these over the skyline calipers as they are so obsolete. I got piles of commodore brake parts, rebuild calipers for them often as I use them on all my cars including the VW.
vlad01 路
well the stock brakes suck, so why not?Bizarre wrote:You talking front or back?
Ford brakes work better for the rear
But the question is why?
A lot of work, and unless BIG horse power is there, is it really needed??
I personally can not live without big brakes, even on stock cars. They are literally a life saver.
I think the ford ones have slightly bigger piston? so more braking effort. but they aren't very reliable compared to the commodore caliper. I lost count how many times I had those ford caliper stuff up. I think something like 100% failure rate with the handbrake mechanism for my family lol. rebuild them they are ok, not sure for how long, but less that 15 years from what I have seen.
Camo 路
Hi Smiley,
and thanks for bringing that link of yours back up, has given me another possible option in the future for better brakes.
In your photo below, can you please tell me what hub you used and rotor. Is it one of 'Shermans' rear hubs with a VN Commodore rotor.
I will have to go through the rest of your link now and see if your front brake modification is there also 馃憤
Thanks, Kevin
and thanks for bringing that link of yours back up, has given me another possible option in the future for better brakes.
In your photo below, can you please tell me what hub you used and rotor. Is it one of 'Shermans' rear hubs with a VN Commodore rotor.
I will have to go through the rest of your link now and see if your front brake modification is there also 馃憤
Thanks, Kevin
Smiley wrote:
Smiley 路
Hey Kev.
Happy to help out mate. If you (or anyone for the matter) have any more questions feel free to ask.
The hubs are from John Sherman. They are just blank Type 3 hubs that have been drilled for the Commodore Stud pattern. You also have to machine the outside diameter down slightly for them to fit inside the Commodore disc. And yes, it's just a standard VN rear Commodore disc.
If you like this then you should see the upgrade I'm cooking up at the moment. I'm planning to fit the Commodore front calipers onto the back now as well, to give me a more neutral braking bias, due to the Baja having a heavy ass!
As for the front brakes they are also Commodore, this time front rotors and calipers. It was a very easy mod with the Country Buggy front spindles I'm running, as the stub actually measures in at exactly the same dimentions as the Commodore one. And so, I'm running Commodore wheel bearings and seals on the front. Makes them cheap and easy to replace when I need to!
These spindles are larger than the stock bug Link Pin or Ball Joint ones, so you might have to measure it up and find the right bearings to adapt it to fit.
I would highly recommend the rear brakes to anybody. They work fantastic! And because the pads and shoes are from the most common car in the country they are cheap and widely availible everywhere.
Smiley 馃檪
Smiley 馃檪
Happy to help out mate. If you (or anyone for the matter) have any more questions feel free to ask.
The hubs are from John Sherman. They are just blank Type 3 hubs that have been drilled for the Commodore Stud pattern. You also have to machine the outside diameter down slightly for them to fit inside the Commodore disc. And yes, it's just a standard VN rear Commodore disc.
If you like this then you should see the upgrade I'm cooking up at the moment. I'm planning to fit the Commodore front calipers onto the back now as well, to give me a more neutral braking bias, due to the Baja having a heavy ass!
As for the front brakes they are also Commodore, this time front rotors and calipers. It was a very easy mod with the Country Buggy front spindles I'm running, as the stub actually measures in at exactly the same dimentions as the Commodore one. And so, I'm running Commodore wheel bearings and seals on the front. Makes them cheap and easy to replace when I need to!
These spindles are larger than the stock bug Link Pin or Ball Joint ones, so you might have to measure it up and find the right bearings to adapt it to fit.
I would highly recommend the rear brakes to anybody. They work fantastic! And because the pads and shoes are from the most common car in the country they are cheap and widely availible everywhere.
Smiley 馃檪
Smiley 馃檪
vlad01 路
Thats really cool what you did there Smiley. The commys have really good brakes from late VP onward to VS with the same setup and no ABS oh and V8, forgot about the v8 brakes as I forget there is a v8 versions of these cars lol
Given that you got entire commodore front brake setup, that might give you head room to upgrade to VT-VY twin pot setup using conversion hubs readily available off the shelf.
Are you using VN standard front setup or late VP/v8 VN/VP brakes?
got any pics of the front setup?
oh and one other thing, these brakes with QFM A1RM pads are ace! makes your passengers sick every time without fail 馃憤 馃憤
Given that you got entire commodore front brake setup, that might give you head room to upgrade to VT-VY twin pot setup using conversion hubs readily available off the shelf.
Are you using VN standard front setup or late VP/v8 VN/VP brakes?
got any pics of the front setup?
oh and one other thing, these brakes with QFM A1RM pads are ace! makes your passengers sick every time without fail 馃憤 馃憤
Smiley 路
I'm running the V8 VN front brakes. They have the finned cailpers and 300mm rotors instead of 270mm like the V6s.
I have found that these brakes are also on the VN Toyota Lexcens, they put the good stuff on before Holden did!
I thought about upgrading to the VT setup, but that would require a heap of extra work, probably having to fit the master cylinder from the VT and boost it too. And I'm perfectly happy with the front brakes, they actually work too well, hence me chasing more bias towards the rear.
My plan is to fit the front calipers to the rear and then play with different pads to tweak the bias more if required, eg hard pads up front and soft ones out back to give some more rear bias if required.
Pictures of the front setup are on page 29 of my build.
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=80275&page=29
Smiley 馃檪
I have found that these brakes are also on the VN Toyota Lexcens, they put the good stuff on before Holden did!
I thought about upgrading to the VT setup, but that would require a heap of extra work, probably having to fit the master cylinder from the VT and boost it too. And I'm perfectly happy with the front brakes, they actually work too well, hence me chasing more bias towards the rear.
My plan is to fit the front calipers to the rear and then play with different pads to tweak the bias more if required, eg hard pads up front and soft ones out back to give some more rear bias if required.
Pictures of the front setup are on page 29 of my build.
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=80275&page=29
Smiley 馃檪
psimitar 路
So does Commodore stuff :P 馃槀vlad01 wrote:well the stock brakes suck, so why not?
Craig Torrens 路
馃槀馃槀馃槀psimitar wrote:So does Commodore stuff :P 馃槀vlad01 wrote:well the stock brakes suck, so why not?
vlad01 路
The V6 had the bigger brakes too, but from oct 92 onward, Lexen was build in the holden factory, ordered by Toyota as a re-badge, so holden put those bigger brakes on I guess as Lexen was suppose to be luxury model? 馃槈 oh and its 290mm 馃 VR-VS is smaller at 289mm and the VT upgrade is 296mm. 300mm might be VE brakes?Smiley wrote:I'm running the V8 VN front brakes. They have the finned cailpers and 300mm rotors instead of 270mm like the V6s.
I have found that these brakes are also on the VN Toyota Lexcens, they put the good stuff on before Holden did!
I thought about upgrading to the VT setup, but that would require a heap of extra work, probably having to fit the master cylinder from the VT and boost it too. And I'm perfectly happy with the front brakes, they actually work too well, hence me chasing more bias towards the rear.
My plan is to fit the front calipers to the rear and then play with different pads to tweak the bias more if required, eg hard pads up front and soft ones out back to give some more rear bias if required.
Pictures of the front setup are on page 29 of my build.
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=80275&page=29
Smiley 馃檪
The VL turbo also used those brakes so they go back to the 80s for availability.
Also if anyone else wanted to use these brakes, make sure that aren't ABS version, they are much smaller than the brakes used here, calipers too.
No need for extra work on VT setup, just use VL-VS 1" MC and if you are using a booster, grab the VR-VS VH512 booster. its same dual diaphragm as the VT + but same physical design as the earlier VL -VP booster, bolts right in!
The calipers are bolt on as well as the conversions hubs.
I see all these dumb asses in the holden scene making nasty dangerous home brewed VT booster conversions for the earlier models, why?when there is one that bolts right in already. just check for the part number as said VH512 its the PRB part number.
As for fitting front caliper to the back, not sure that is a good idea. under hard braking in a rear engine vehicle, the weight transfers to the front but is more evenly distributed than a front engine car but still front biased. In any circumstance you would not want to have more braking at the rear than the front, if your rear locks before the front, ass end can swing around unexpectedly just like a go kart when you slam the brakes.
I am not entirely sure, but it looks like the PRB MC used on the holden have a secondary larger cylinder, which decreases brake effort at the rear from my understanding. Don't quote me on that, I never pulled one apart, never had to. never had any issues with holden brakes ever in the hydraulic system.
what MC are you using? perhaps a vw BUS MC will suit best. That is what I have on my type 3 with holden calipers too.
simple solution might be to add a propositioning valve to the system to limit the front a little.
vlad01 路
far more reliable than vw though :Ppsimitar wrote:So does Commodore stuff :P 馃槀vlad01 wrote:well the stock brakes suck, so why not?
bajachris88 路
Front calipers in the rear is actually a great idea particularly for a baja like smiley's or myself!
With a baja, you got BIG rotating mass in the rear (33's or 31's for instance) and the front weights next to nil which makes it easy to lock up the front brakes so you don't want anything 'hectic' at the front end regardless of the theory of weight transfer.
I personally need to upgrade the rear type 3 brakes. During hard braking the fronts lock up (stock discs) while rear still rotates about, to the point you got to go hard on the brake to stop those rear drums quickly while the front squeels (say on slippery gravel). I have to ensure i don't want to turn when i'm at this state of 'ploughing' 馃槀. A super performing disc setup on the rear willl balance the brake bias such that the rear can kick in harder before any chance of wheel lock up at the front, slowing down those big heavy 31's at the back.
With a baja, you got BIG rotating mass in the rear (33's or 31's for instance) and the front weights next to nil which makes it easy to lock up the front brakes so you don't want anything 'hectic' at the front end regardless of the theory of weight transfer.
I personally need to upgrade the rear type 3 brakes. During hard braking the fronts lock up (stock discs) while rear still rotates about, to the point you got to go hard on the brake to stop those rear drums quickly while the front squeels (say on slippery gravel). I have to ensure i don't want to turn when i'm at this state of 'ploughing' 馃槀. A super performing disc setup on the rear willl balance the brake bias such that the rear can kick in harder before any chance of wheel lock up at the front, slowing down those big heavy 31's at the back.
psimitar 路
I'd much rather use VW than GM parts but each to their own.vlad01 wrote:far more reliable than vw though :Ppsimitar wrote:So does Commodore stuff :P 馃槀vlad01 wrote:well the stock brakes suck, so why not?
HappyDaze 路
And I'd rather use these 356 Porsche drums than any of the above.馃憤
vw54 路
Rear Porsche nice cooling fins
Governor 路
Yes these are the best brakes for a beetle, expensive but the best usually isHappyDaze wrote:And I'd rather use these 356 Porsche drums than any of the above.馃憤
psimitar 路
Cool 馃檪 Be interesting to test these against, say, the CSP vented disc kit or Airkewld Wilwood kit. Volksworld did a test of std drums and disc fronts against performance stuff but never a 356 Drum. Would be interesting reading 馃檪HappyDaze wrote:And I'd rather use these 356 Porsche drums than any of the above.馃憤
HappyDaze 路
Saturday, 24th May will be the perfect oportunity for such a test. Nationals Supersprints at Wakefield Park.
No.8 Beetle, withe 356 drums F & R, will be there.....so bring all the disk-braked Beetles along for the "Big Test" 馃憤
No.8 Beetle, withe 356 drums F & R, will be there.....so bring all the disk-braked Beetles along for the "Big Test" 馃憤
psimitar 路
Well I kinda meant more quantifiable tests as your driving is probably better than most of the competition 馃檪HappyDaze wrote:Saturday, 24th May will be the perfect oportunity for such a test. Nationals Supersprints at Wakefield Park.
No.8 Beetle, withe 356 drums F & R, will be there.....so bring all the disk-braked Beetles along for the "Big Test" 馃憤
vlad01 路
psimitar wrote:Well I kinda meant more quantifiable tests as your driving is probably better than most of the competition 馃檪HappyDaze wrote:Saturday, 24th May will be the perfect oportunity for such a test. Nationals Supersprints at Wakefield Park.
No.8 Beetle, withe 356 drums F & R, will be there.....so bring all the disk-braked Beetles along for the "Big Test" 馃憤
10 consecutive 100-0 stop tests side by side would be a good test.
what are those 356 brakes like for fade?
HappyDaze 路
Fade has not shown to be a problem.
At Wakefield Park, after 10 laps [5 BIG brake applications per lap] there is still plenty of 'pedal'.
At Wakefield Park, after 10 laps [5 BIG brake applications per lap] there is still plenty of 'pedal'.
vlad01 路
well I suppose there shouldn't be much fade on a bug with bigger brakes, not much weight to stop.
stock brakes on a type 3 certainly fade fast. heavy bastard with pissy little brakes lol.
reminds me of the time my squareback's front pads caught on fire haha, burnt off all the paint on the center of the rims too. 馃檮
stock brakes on a type 3 certainly fade fast. heavy bastard with pissy little brakes lol.
reminds me of the time my squareback's front pads caught on fire haha, burnt off all the paint on the center of the rims too. 馃檮
psimitar 路
Exactly 馃檪vlad01 wrote:psimitar wrote:Well I kinda meant more quantifiable tests as your driving is probably better than most of the competition 馃檪HappyDaze wrote:Saturday, 24th May will be the perfect oportunity for such a test. Nationals Supersprints at Wakefield Park.
No.8 Beetle, withe 356 drums F & R, will be there.....so bring all the disk-braked Beetles along for the "Big Test" 馃憤
10 consecutive 100-0 stop tests side by side would be a good test.
what are those 356 brakes like for fade?
Similar to Volksworld mags testing.
psimitar 路
Tis why T3 rears on a bug is a good upgrade 馃檪vlad01 wrote:well I suppose there shouldn't be much fade on a bug with bigger brakes, not much weight to stop.
stock brakes on a type 3 certainly fade fast. heavy bastard with pissy little brakes lol.
reminds me of the time my squareback's front pads caught on fire haha, burnt off all the paint on the center of the rims too. 馃檮
vwo60 路
The bigest thing would be the cost and avilability of the porsche drum brakes, they are not for mere mortals
vlad01 路
I still can't imagine 356 brakes being as good as disks used to stop a 1400kg v8 powered car.
I would go for these disk brakes any day, coz I know how well they work in the 1400kg they come from and they work like a brick wall in a vw.
I would go for these disk brakes any day, coz I know how well they work in the 1400kg they come from and they work like a brick wall in a vw.
vlad01 路
yeah I hear about this, I sold a few type 3 brakes to bug owners.psimitar wrote:Tis why T3 rears on a bug is a good upgrade 馃檪vlad01 wrote:well I suppose there shouldn't be much fade on a bug with bigger brakes, not much weight to stop.
stock brakes on a type 3 certainly fade fast. heavy bastard with pissy little brakes lol.
reminds me of the time my squareback's front pads caught on fire haha, burnt off all the paint on the center of the rims too. 馃檮
I am not sure how much better it would be, I always found upgrading the front makes nearly all of the braking performance increase, while the back is marginally noticeable when upgraded. This is on type 3 and other cars besides vw that I upgraded brakes on.
I never owned a bug so I can't say.
HappyDaze 路
Chokeau, sorry if I've caused this to drift off-topic. 356 brakes are 11" [280mm] diameter, and I consider them "Big brakes".....it was not my intention to start a 'drum v disc' debate.
The reasons I use 356 drums are:- They are light, strong, smooth, and [when I bought mine] fairly cheap. They stop well - with good linings - and I like the look of them.馃榿
The reasons I use 356 drums are:- They are light, strong, smooth, and [when I bought mine] fairly cheap. They stop well - with good linings - and I like the look of them.馃榿
vlad01 路
well I like the look of the finned calipers, silver caliper, gloss black anchor plate and nice DBA asymmetric slotted T2 rotors 馃憤
Its got its own thing going compared to the usual brembo Porsche calipers.
Its got its own thing going compared to the usual brembo Porsche calipers.
vlad01 路
mmmmmm!
馃樀
馃樀
Aussie Dubbin 路
I'll chime in.
Great to see the commodore discs bolted to a standard part. Has anyone put the commodore hubs and calipers on a bj beetle without massive mods.
I met a guy at a show who suggested BMW hubs would fit onto beetle bj but never asked him to explain further
Great to see the commodore discs bolted to a standard part. Has anyone put the commodore hubs and calipers on a bj beetle without massive mods.
I met a guy at a show who suggested BMW hubs would fit onto beetle bj but never asked him to explain further
psimitar 路
vlad01 wrote:yeah I hear about this, I sold a few type 3 brakes to bug owners.psimitar wrote:Tis why T3 rears on a bug is a good upgrade 馃檪vlad01 wrote:well I suppose there shouldn't be much fade on a bug with bigger brakes, not much weight to stop.
stock brakes on a type 3 certainly fade fast. heavy bastard with pissy little brakes lol.
reminds me of the time my squareback's front pads caught on fire haha, burnt off all the paint on the center of the rims too. 馃檮
I am not sure how much better it would be, I always found upgrading the front makes nearly all of the braking performance increase, while the back is marginally noticeable when upgraded. This is on type 3 and other cars besides vw that I upgraded brakes on.
I never owned a bug so I can't say.
vlad01 路
umm as for hubs, best bet would be to get a complete kit from Glenn aka "VWCOOL"Aussie Dubbin wrote:I'll chime in.
Great to see the commodore discs bolted to a standard part. Has anyone put the commodore hubs and calipers on a bj beetle without massive mods.
I met a guy at a show who suggested BMW hubs would fit onto beetle bj but never asked him to explain further
he makes front kits based on commodore caliper, AU falcon front disks, billet adapter brackets, billet hub that use standard VW bearing and the PCD is your choice
This is what I have, its the best bit of brake kit out there in terms of proper engineering, and standard parts to boot!
according to Smiley, commodore hubs fit the vw thing spindles?
From there I can't say how you go about attaching the calipers.
Subarugears 路
The Subaru rear disc brake conversion onto Type 1 trailing setups that Vlad is referring to has been developed and tested.
We have tried both the vented rear disc/2 pot WRX caliper, and the solid rear disc/single pot floating caliper.
With our soon-to-be-released kit basically any Subaru rear brake setup can be fitted onto any type 1 style setup.
You can use Impreza, Forester, Liberty, Outback, Tribeca, WRX, STi - whatever.
And the handbrake works. Properly.
I have redesigned my initial hub design, which could only provide 5x100, to now provide 5x100, 5x114.3, 4x130, 5x130 - all on the same hub.
I will have a sneak preview of this setup at the VW Nationals next Sunday 25th May so please come along to the Subarugears/Subabrakes stand and take a look.
p.s. I think I've got it solved for Bay window Kombis and Vanagons too, so it looks like we've got the whole range covered.
We have tried both the vented rear disc/2 pot WRX caliper, and the solid rear disc/single pot floating caliper.
With our soon-to-be-released kit basically any Subaru rear brake setup can be fitted onto any type 1 style setup.
You can use Impreza, Forester, Liberty, Outback, Tribeca, WRX, STi - whatever.
And the handbrake works. Properly.
I have redesigned my initial hub design, which could only provide 5x100, to now provide 5x100, 5x114.3, 4x130, 5x130 - all on the same hub.
I will have a sneak preview of this setup at the VW Nationals next Sunday 25th May so please come along to the Subarugears/Subabrakes stand and take a look.
p.s. I think I've got it solved for Bay window Kombis and Vanagons too, so it looks like we've got the whole range covered.
cnfabo 路
Do u have a price on the kits at the moment or still working on this..Subarugears wrote:The Subaru rear disc brake conversion onto Type 1 trailing setups that Vlad is referring to has been developed and tested.
We have tried both the vented rear disc/2 pot WRX caliper, and the solid rear disc/single pot floating caliper.
With our soon-to-be-released kit basically any Subaru rear brake setup can be fitted onto any type 1 style setup.
You can use Impreza, Forester, Liberty, Outback, Tribeca, WRX, STi - whatever.
And the handbrake works. Properly.
I have redesigned my initial hub design, which could only provide 5x100, to now provide 5x100, 5x114.3, 4x130, 5x130 - all on the same hub.
I will have a sneak preview of this setup at the VW Nationals next Sunday 25th May so please come along to the Subarugears/Subabrakes stand and take a look.
p.s. I think I've got it solved for Bay window Kombis and Vanagons too, so it looks like we've got the whole range covered.
Fabo...
Subarugears 路
No firm price yet until everything is in stock and the kits are released.
Am working on the cost prices of everything so that it stays as reasonable as possible.
Am working on the cost prices of everything so that it stays as reasonable as possible.
vlad01 路
I'll take my order for a rear kit soon as you reveal them for sale.Subarugears wrote:The Subaru rear disc brake conversion onto Type 1 trailing setups that Vlad is referring to has been developed and tested.
We have tried both the vented rear disc/2 pot WRX caliper, and the solid rear disc/single pot floating caliper.
With our soon-to-be-released kit basically any Subaru rear brake setup can be fitted onto any type 1 style setup.
You can use Impreza, Forester, Liberty, Outback, Tribeca, WRX, STi - whatever.
And the handbrake works. Properly.
I have redesigned my initial hub design, which could only provide 5x100, to now provide 5x100, 5x114.3, 4x130, 5x130 - all on the same hub.
I will have a sneak preview of this setup at the VW Nationals next Sunday 25th May so please come along to the Subarugears/Subabrakes stand and take a look.
p.s. I think I've got it solved for Bay window Kombis and Vanagons too, so it looks like we've got the whole range covered.
i don't feel that the skyline caliper is a good solution for the handbrake so I held off from running them.
what size piston do the 2 types of caliper use?
Subarugears 路
Vlad, I'll see you on Sunday at the Nationals with your vernier calipers.....won't I ?
bajachris88 路
Do we need engineering certs to fit these?Subarugears wrote:No firm price yet until everything is in stock and the kits are released.
Am working on the cost prices of everything so that it stays as reasonable as possible.
Does it come with paperwork?
Chris.
Subarugears 路
Hi Chris,bajachris88 wrote:Do we need engineering certs to fit these?Subarugears wrote:No firm price yet until everything is in stock and the kits are released.
Am working on the cost prices of everything so that it stays as reasonable as possible.
Does it come with paperwork?
Chris.
I discussed these rear brake kits with a NSW registered engineer when I was developing them.
He was very happy with the way they were being developed, particularly as most of the parts used are OEM. His statement to me was that any brakes cannot be 'approved alone' i.e. approved as an item that can just be bolted onto any car. Any car fitted with different brakes must have an engineer inspect those brakes and their effect on the overall braking system. The brakes can then be 'approved' for use on that car.
I will certainly be looking to make some sets available for different cars/setups in Australia that are prepared to have an engineer inspect and sign off on them. Once the first ones are done, it should be an easier road for those that follow.
vlad01 路
So you don't know off the top of your head?Subarugears wrote:Vlad, I'll see you on Sunday at the Nationals with your vernier calipers.....won't I ?
I just wanted to know so I can determin how much the front/rear bias will change if any.
Subarugears 路
Nope I don't know off the top of my head. 38.1mm via google.
Now Vlad - does the 2 piston version change the brake bias more than the 1 piston floating caliper version, given the piston size is equal? 馃お
Now Vlad - does the 2 piston version change the brake bias more than the 1 piston floating caliper version, given the piston size is equal? 馃お
vlad01 路
its shouldn't if the pads are equal and piston combined area2 is the same between the 2 styles, thats disregarding disk size.Subarugears wrote:Nope I don't know off the top of my head. 38.1mm via google.
Now Vlad - does the 2 piston version change the brake bias more than the 1 piston floating caliper version, given the piston size is equal? 馃お
Generally speaking the floating type have bigger pads for the same area2 piston compared to twin opposing piston type coz they have 2 smaller piston rahter than 1 big one. I don't know if that is always the case though but has been with all the ATE and PBR calipers I dealt with.
38mm? sounds about the same as the skyline ones, i'll measure them when i get back from Sydney.
EDIT: google suggests the skyline ones are 38.1mm too.
Sweet!馃
vlad01 路
On 2nd thoughts does the force of 2 opposing pistons cancel out giving net force of one? Something gives me the feeling that might be the case?
ahh my brain hurts 馃ゲ
EDIT:
makes sence now. So its the same for 2 x area opposing= 1 x area floating. Or same piston diameter in opposing the same as single floating. Yes??
ahh my brain hurts 馃ゲ
EDIT:
makes sence now. So its the same for 2 x area opposing= 1 x area floating. Or same piston diameter in opposing the same as single floating. Yes??
bajachris88 路
I can't see how leverage comes into it.vlad01 wrote:On 2nd thoughts does the force of 2 opposing pistons cancel out giving net force of one? Something gives me the feeling that might be the case?
ahh my brain hurts 馃ゲ
EDIT:
makes sence now. So its the same for 2 x area opposing= 1 x area floating. Or same piston diameter in opposing the same as single floating. Yes??
Just think pressure. Double the area, half the pressure (IE: 2 pistons), but... because the pressure is in the same direction of applicable (towards disk), it becomes 'x 2', which is same pressure as single.
Friction is proportional to pressure, so it will be the same friction as a single piston because dual piston will be the same 'net' pressure (Force over area).
psimitar 路
Hydraulics is pretty straight forward in it's basic form.
Let's start at the master cylinder. Say the surface area of the piston is 20mm2 and you apply 100pounds of force. That force is distributed over the piston area so you get 5pounds per mm2.
Now at the caliper or wheel cylinder if you say you have a 50mm2 area piston then the output force is 50x5=250pounds of force.
but as the equation must be equal on both sides then the travel of the MC piston is divided my the percentage increase of the MC piston to the caliper piston so that the caliper piston will move that percentage less then the MC piston.
Doesn't matter how many psitons a caliper has as the input force just distributes itself across them and depending on the pistons surface areas will give an output force.
The reason why multipiston calipers are used is because it gives better pressure distribution over the brake pad and more even pressure as that 5 or 6mm steel backing pad of the brake pad does bend and hence on a single caliper piston the ends of the pad will have less pressure being applied to them and that leads to thermal overload in the middle of the pad under heavy braking. Constistent pressure across the entire pad helps give better pedal 'feel' and even heat build up.
Let's start at the master cylinder. Say the surface area of the piston is 20mm2 and you apply 100pounds of force. That force is distributed over the piston area so you get 5pounds per mm2.
Now at the caliper or wheel cylinder if you say you have a 50mm2 area piston then the output force is 50x5=250pounds of force.
but as the equation must be equal on both sides then the travel of the MC piston is divided my the percentage increase of the MC piston to the caliper piston so that the caliper piston will move that percentage less then the MC piston.
Doesn't matter how many psitons a caliper has as the input force just distributes itself across them and depending on the pistons surface areas will give an output force.
The reason why multipiston calipers are used is because it gives better pressure distribution over the brake pad and more even pressure as that 5 or 6mm steel backing pad of the brake pad does bend and hence on a single caliper piston the ends of the pad will have less pressure being applied to them and that leads to thermal overload in the middle of the pad under heavy braking. Constistent pressure across the entire pad helps give better pedal 'feel' and even heat build up.
Subarugears 路
I thought that question might intrigue you and offer some interesting answers. 馃槀
As above - the dual piston basically offers the same pressure as the single piston floating caliper (all things being equalish) but is a bit nicer across the pad.
In the Subaru setups the pads and rotors on the back are pretty much all the same size (except Brembos of course).
The WRX 2 piston rear setups have the sweetness of a vented disc though.
I almost have it sussed for Bay Kombi/Vanagon/Syncro trailing arms too.
As above - the dual piston basically offers the same pressure as the single piston floating caliper (all things being equalish) but is a bit nicer across the pad.
In the Subaru setups the pads and rotors on the back are pretty much all the same size (except Brembos of course).
The WRX 2 piston rear setups have the sweetness of a vented disc though.
I almost have it sussed for Bay Kombi/Vanagon/Syncro trailing arms too.