Aussieveedubbers 路 VW Circuit Racing

Historic Touring Car 1300cc Beetle

https://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/threads/106798/historic-touring-car-1300cc-beetle

pompom 路

Just come back from a double header at Croft.

Race 1 (wet and long)


Race 2 (dry and short)

matberry 路

Great stuff, thanks for sharing
馃憤馃憤

sander288 路

Thanks Ian; can't believe you had a wet track in England! 馃槀馃槀馃槀

pompom 路

sander288 wrote:can't believe you had a wet track in England! 馃槀馃槀馃槀
Every time it rains my car is fine and every time the tracks dry my car breaks!

The Beetle seems to like the wet better than most. The Minis are in the class of their own...the leading Mini was 11 seconds a lap faster than me in the wet, the fastest Mustang was only 4 seconds faster than me.

In the wet race I finished ahead of a 1500cc Anglia 105E, 1380cc Anglia 100E, a pair of 1600cc Lotus Cortinas, 1040cc Hillman Imp and a Mini Cooper....I think if race 1 had been dry at least 4 of these would have powered past me......bring on the rain!!馃憤

HappyDaze 路

Pretty good effort, pompom.馃憤

Like you, I like the wet. This was in 1963.....I managed to beat a very quick Downton Mini that day:-

pompom 路

I don't know about liking the wet, but in the UK you don't have a lot of choice!

I used to hate it, but now i've done a few wet races i'm starting to gain confidence. I do need to learn to use less steering lock and turn the car using nothing but the gas pedal...takes practice (and balls!) to get it right but i'll get there.

I also need to sort the gas pedal out, as I was unable to heal & toe which was why the downshifts were so poor in the wet! (you must have noticed me snatching the rear)

pompom 路

Here's the next video offering and unbelievably...its raining!!

Oulton Park Gold Cup (2 races)

sander288 路

Awesome; certainly had some understeer in the conditions!

vassy66T1 路

Very cool!
Plenty of cars to avoid 馃樀

pompom 路

vassy66T1 wrote:Very cool!
Plenty of cars to avoid 馃樀
It was like a traffic jam at the start of the first race....Hopefully that's the last time I start that far back.馃槩

1303RS 路

Hi Pompom

Very great stuff!

I used to race against some classic Minis with my VW 1303. Looks like I didn't drive as good as you even I had bigger engine (92x74mm) and more sophisticated front coilover struts/IRS setup. The fast Minis could do 3 to 4 seconds per lap faster than me. My best lap was 1'44"



I am planning to build my next air-cooled race car which will be a shaved weight Karmann Ghia (fibreglass front and rear ends) with 1300 or 1600cc engine. It would be great if I could learn something from you about tuning small displacement VW engine.

Tim

pompom 路

Hi Tim, love your movies. Nice to see historic racing in China with Minis, Anglias, BMWs, Alfas (and so many Beetles)

I have 7 Minis in my class (in the dry 4 are faster than me and 3 slower) I can match them on the brakes and in the corners but my biggest problem is i'm 50kg heavier so the Minis have better acceleration so they can be up to 10mph (16kph) faster on the straights.

If you build a 1300cc race engine like mine the 77mm bore is too small so you cannot fit big valves which drastically limits the power. (my regulations limit me to 1300cc) If I could go bigger I would go for a 1641, 1776 or 1915cc that revs to 7500-8000rpm

Keep in touch
Ian

bat69 路

Hi Ian. How did the porsche fan go in comparision to the electric system you ran before?

1303RS 路

Hi Ian,

The movie featuring those mixed makes of cars was in Thailand (street circuit). Unfortunately historic/classic racing is still not that popular in China although other motorsports of modern cars have been developing very well.

I want to build a small engine because the race I am going to take part also has class limit. I plan to enter Class A which restricts to under 1800cc/1000kg. If the engine is 1300cc, the race car can be lightened to about 700kg. If 1600cc, the weight has to be around 880kg (about the stock weight of VW Type 1). If 1776cc or bigger, I will have to enter higher class to race against those mighty Porsches, TVRs, etc. So it might be an advantage to stay in Class A if I could tune a "high" power 1300cc engine and reduce the weight of the car as much as possible.

The heavily modified Minis are really fast. They could have 160hp with less than 650kg body weight. Your Beetle is only 50kg heavier than Mini? So it is about 700kg or so, right? Any goods advice how to lighten a Beetle? In my case, a Karmann Ghia, which I have already bought some fibreglass front/rear ends, doors and bonnets, etc. but I am not sure if it can be drastically lightened.

I also have a full race Mini with 1275cc engine which I lightened to 580kg (without driver and fuel). I personally prefer driving Beetle to Mini on race track though.

Tim

pompom 路

bat69 wrote:Hi Ian. How did the porsche fan go in comparision to the electric system you ran before?
The 911 cooling has been quite a surprise. So far the oil temp is 10 degrees cooler than the old 12v cooling (but the last 4 races have been much cooler) I was expecting the 911 fan to use a lot of horsepower but if anything the car 'feels' quicker. (the old air scoops under the car are gone which should help reduce drag)

The biggest improvement has been that the rear of the car is now 20lbs lighter (didn't realize how much the scoops, air hoses, alternator brackets etc weighed) Plus the engine bay is tidyer (I can now reach the spark plugs)

Hopefully the next race at Brands Hatch will be dry, then we can finally see how quick this car really is.

pompom 路

Hi Tim,

The weight limit for my class (1151-1300cc) is 720kg (including driver) so the Minis I am up against have to add weight to get up to 720kg. The Minis have around 135-140bhp. I am currently 770kg with 126bhp so you can see my problem.

For your rules its quite a difficult decision to make. My engine has roughly 100bhp per litre so if we use 100bhp/litre as a rule:

1285cc = 128.5bhp 700kg = 1bhp/5.4kg
1584cc = 158.4bhp 880kg = 1bhp/5.5kg
1776cc = 177.6bhp 1000kg = 1bhp/5.6kg

As you can see, mathematically there isn't much in it. All three engines would result in a similar power to weight ratio. It will be easier to get 100bhp/litre out of a 1776cc than a 1285cc and by adding weight to get up to 1000kg you can place the weight where you want to balance the car. On the other hand having a 1285cc/700kg combination means that the car will be as light as possible (good for braking and handling).

All things considered the 1285cc/700kg option should be marginally quicker with better braking and the lighter weight will allow you to throw the car around a lot more.

But bare in mind that reducing weight costs money and adding weight is cheap, so a 1776cc/1000kg option would probably be cheaper.

Good luck making the choice

cnfabo 路

Which make shroud are you using ian

pompom 路

cnfabo wrote:Which make shroud are you using ian
I bought the CSP kit with fibreglass shroud, carbon fibre isn't allowed in historic racing (apart from helmets, fire extinguishers and the racing seat)

The fibreglass shroud is still a whole lot lighter than the old VW tin.

1303RS 路

Thanks Ian. Your analysis very makes sense. I think 1584cc/880kg would be a good compromise among, bhp, weight and cost.

pompom 路

Here's the latest onboard from Brands Hatch...Fanbelt problems again...Boo!

cnfabo 路

Damn I love watching your vids ian...what outside air temp and oil temps you running with the new Porsche fan ??

What sort of HP,weight ,cc are those Hillman's running.....

Fabo

pompom 路

The day was around 20 degrees and the oil temp is around 110 degrees (The stock cooling and my old electic cooling were up to 120 degrees)

The Imps are putting out around 115bhp@9500rpm from a 998cc engine. They are also 100kg lighter than me.

If you notice (despite having an ATB diff) i'm spinning up my tyres out of the corners which is costing me a lot of time. The Imps are getting their power down really well.

cnfabo 路

pompom wrote:The day was around 20 degrees and the oil temp is around 110 degrees (The stock cooling and my old electic cooling were up to 120 degrees)

The Imps are putting out around 115bhp@9500rpm from a 998cc engine. They are also 100kg lighter than me.
That's a lot of rpm,and weight difference

If you notice (despite having an ATB diff) i'm spinning up my tyres out of the corners which is costing me a lot of time. The Imps are getting their power down really well.
I actually thought I did see inside wheel spin.when I first made my adjustable sway bars I was getting spin also then I tightened them up and that went away

pompom 路

Since removing the front anti-roll bar the front end grip is great, but the car obviously rolls more. The downward travel of the rear suspension is limited by the Z-bar so it will not go into positive camber.

For a quick fix I have two choices I guess...I can put a stock anti roll bar on the front which will be soft but control the body roll, or lengthen the Z-bar rods to allow more downward travel at the back to stop the rear wheels lifting...or both!

I'll have a dabble at the next race at Silverstone in a weeks time.

cnfabo 路

pompom wrote:Since removing the front anti-roll bar the front end grip is great, but the car obviously rolls more. The downward travel of the rear suspension is limited by the Z-bar so it will not go into positive camber.

For a quick fix I have two choices I guess...I can put a stock anti roll bar on the front which will be soft but control the body roll, or lengthen the Z-bar rods to allow more downward travel at the back to stop the rear wheels lifting...or both!

I'll have a dabble at the next race at Silverstone in a weeks time.
Good luck Ian,can't wait for more bids..oh,are you going to have a punt at some hillclimb in the future...

pompom 路

I've never considered hillclimbing or sprints but I will be doing more drags and I'll be entering the UK version of bonneville next year to set a top speed record for a 1300cc.

bat69 路

Top stuff. I love this car. What sort of problems you having with the fan/belt?? Is the fan coming off with the Porsche fan? I found I had to reduce my pulley a fair amount to get the fan/pulley ratio right with the amount of revs I do.

pompom 路

bat69 wrote:Top stuff. I love this car. What sort of problems you having with the fan/belt?? Is the fan coming off with the Porsche fan? I found I had to reduce my pulley a fair amount to get the fan/pulley ratio right with the amount of revs I do.
Yep...The belts supplied with the 911 kit weren't very good, so i'm trying some new belts at Silverstone next weekend. I think in the future i'll be running a smaller bottom pulley. The Hillman Imps that I'm up against use are revving to 9500rpm and use deep pulleys as they had similar problems losing belts.

bat69 路

I use a 102mm bottom pully to get it to work effectively on my bug with a top end rpm of 8000

pompom 路

bat69 wrote:I use a 102mm bottom pully to get it to work effectively on my bug with a top end rpm of 8000
As these 911 cooling kits are mostly used on 2000-2500cc motors I'm sure I can get away with under-driving the fan on my 1300.....I have a 136mm (dry sump sized) bottom pulley which i'll experiment with next season.

HappyDaze 路

On suspension set-up....I'm running a 'spool' [swing-axle box], with 4 deg. neg. on the front [trailing arms]. Also 3mm toe-out. My patented 馃槀 'strut' stops the lower trailing arm from flexing, to mainain negative camber. A 25mm [2mm tube] anti-roll bar on the front, with comp. spring on the rear. Old No. 8 has never been quicker !

Cheers, Greg

P.S. Keep up the good work.....I love what you're doing. 馃憤

pompom 路

HappyDaze wrote:On suspension set-up....I'm running a 'spool' [swing-axle box], with 4 deg. neg. on the front [trailing arms]. Also 3mm toe-out. My patented 馃槀 'strut' stops the lower trailing arm from flexing, to mainain negative camber. A 25mm [2mm tube] anti-roll bar on the front, with comp. spring on the rear. Old No. 8 has never been quicker !
What tyres are you running with that combination?...I have to run on skinny historic tyres which have no grip, so I can get away with lots of body roll...My front ride height is so high you can get your head between the front tyre and the wing and yet it still smokes the front tyres on the bodywork when i'm giving it the beans.

HappyDaze 路

pompom wrote:
HappyDaze wrote:On suspension set-up....I'm running a 'spool' [swing-axle box], with 4 deg. neg. on the front [trailing arms]. Also 3mm toe-out. My patented 馃槀 'strut' stops the lower trailing arm from flexing, to mainain negative camber. A 25mm [2mm tube] anti-roll bar on the front, with comp. spring on the rear. Old No. 8 has never been quicker !
What tyres are you running with that combination?...I have to run on skinny historic tyres which have no grip, so I can get away with lots of body roll...My front ride height is so high you can get your head between the front tyre and the wing and yet it still smokes the front tyres on the bodywork when i'm giving it the beans.
Good point re. tyres...currently they are Advan A050, although I have run on "skinny" tyres in the past.

Advans:-

S/H Vee Tyres [2011]:-

Michelin 'X', [1963]:-

pompom 路

I'm quite tempted to try the zero-roll rear end one day (my engine builder uses it to good effect on their Formula Vees, they use 3 dampers in total, 1 on each wheel and 1 in the centre above the gearbox linking the 2 rear wheels)

The only problem is my rules say I must use the original spring type (torsion bar) so i'll have to get inventive like binning the original torsion bars and suspending the rear end solely on a giant z-bar or something!

HappyDaze 路

Tried the 'zero-roll' a while back....scared the hell out of me. With its roll cage, etc., the Beetle is too top-heavy, compared to a Vee.

Back in 1962 I machined the rear torsion bars down by 2mm, and used a 2-leaf comp. spring...I prefer the leaf spring to the Z-bar, as it's easier to change rates [and has a lower C of G].

The Appendix J rules back then were probably even more strict than yours.馃檮 My rims were 5" rear [1.65x15 Michelin X], and 4" front [1.55x15].

pompom 路

I'm sure you've probably seen this movie already...O.K. not technically zero roll but awesome just the same. (best stuff is a minute in)

pete wood 路

HappyDaze wrote:
That's a pretty serious oil cooler you've got on that Greg.

pompom 路

Here we go....end of season fun race

cnfabo 路

pompom wrote:Here we go....end of season fun race

Damn man,you had some speed coming into that corner before your spin....those bloody cheese cutter tyres look like fun,he he.....would love to see some close up car pics and a pic of your Porsche fan housing.....have you run it in a once in a blue moon 30 deg heat day yet??

Fabo...

pompom 路

cnfabo wrote:
pompom wrote:Here we go....end of season fun race

Damn man,you had some speed coming into that corner before your spin....those bloody cheese cutter tyres look like fun,he he.....would love to see some close up car pics and a pic of your Porsche fan housing.....have you run it in a once in a blue moon 30 deg heat day yet??

Fabo...


I think it was cold tyres that had me off as it's unusual for me to not be able to save a slide. One lap on the short circuit I guess isn't enough to get them warm as its basically 3 long straights.

We had to change the pulleys on the Porsche fan system after 4 races we're ruined by fanbelt issues. There wasn't time to devise a serpentine system so we fitted a 130mm bottom pulley to slow the fan down and welded a 5mm lip onto the top pulley to keep the belt on and it worked.

Not 30 degrees but 21 degrees on the day and the oil temp was fine with the slower fan. I'll take some pictures during the winter rebuild.

Do you think you'll be back out in the next 12 months??

cnfabo 路

pompom wrote:
cnfabo wrote:
pompom wrote:Here we go....end of season fun race

Damn man,you had some speed coming into that corner before your spin....those bloody cheese cutter tyres look like fun,he he.....would love to see some close up car pics and a pic of your Porsche fan housing.....have you run it in a once in a blue moon 30 deg heat day yet??

Fabo...


I think it was cold tyres that had me off as it's unusual for me to not be able to save a slide. One lap on the short circuit I guess isn't enough to get them warm as its basically 3 long straights.

We had to change the pulleys on the Porsche fan system after 4 races we're ruined by fanbelt issues. There wasn't time to devise a serpentine system so we fitted a 130mm bottom pulley to slow the fan down and welded a 5mm lip onto the top pulley to keep the belt on and it worked.

Not 30 degrees but 21 degrees on the day and the oil temp was fine with the slower fan. I'll take some pictures during the winter rebuild.

Do you think you'll be back out in the next 12 months??
Yeah for sure,I only have two cruisy days left of things to do not including wet sanding and polishing and I'm booked on the 18th for a arvo tuning day at our local circuit....only 4 cars on the track at one time and can do as many laps as I want and can take my time...so fingers crossed no gremlins!!!! I won't start competing till start of next year as I need new AO50's and want to build myself a car trailer...

Fabo...

pompom 路

I may do a track day (with some semi-slicks on the car) just for fun, then i'm going to strip the car down and spend next year rebuilding and testing the car.

I may enter a couple of races next year.

ian

pete wood 路

pompom wrote:We had to change the pulleys on the Porsche fan system after 4 races we're ruined by fanbelt issues. There wasn't time to devise a serpentine system so we fitted a 130mm bottom pulley to slow the fan down and welded a 5mm lip onto the top pulley to keep the belt on and it worked.

Not 30 degrees but 21 degrees on the day and the oil temp was fine with the slower fan. I'll take some pictures during the winter rebuild.

Do you think you'll be back out in the next 12 months??
I guess the porsche fan suffers cavitation issues if you overspeed them just like VW fans, right?

P.s. I reckon your driving style is pretty impressive as is. Would be a much greater man than any of us that could catch that spin on cold tures. 馃お You kept it out of wall so don't be too hard on yourself. 馃槈

pompom 路

I guess the porsche fan suffers cavitation issues if you overspeed them just like VW fans, right?

P.s. I reckon your driving style is pretty impressive as is. Would be a much greater man than any of us that could catch that spin on cold tures. 馃お You kept it out of wall so don't be too hard on yourself. 馃槈
No cavitation problems as it only has 77mm barrels (lots of space between the cylinders) its just that the 911 fan/alternator combination is SO heavy that the fan cannot rev as quickly as the engine and the belt flops off. Reducing the fan speed helps a little.

Still have a lot to learn on the driving, there are still guys ahead of me with slower cars馃ゲ