Thought I'd detail the bush (re)build of my 1600 engine. The PO took the engine apart after a reported spun bearing and I now have the puzzle to put together - at least I think I have all the pieces. This is just a fun exercise, done on the cheap and for me to learn a bit on building a VW engine before investing in new parts for a stroker build at a later date. If this starts and gets my car to the TMR to be registered then mission accomplished.
The parts have seen water so first thing to do was to get rid of the rust starting with the crank.
Before:
Banshee777 ·
After a dose of WD40 and 400 and 600 wet and dry.
Banshee777 ·
I think the spun bearing was a bearing failure due to this piece still embedded in the con-rod??????
Did a bit of polishing again to try and get rid of most of the damage to the rod.
grumble ·
Looking at the rod I think (in fact I am sure) you will find the rod bore is egg shaped and that journal is worn meaning that the crank should be eground and the rod replaced to prevent a similar failure in the future.
Banshee777 ·
Yes I also noticed the extra wear around the edges of the journal as well. The spun bearings are not uniform on the edges so I think they were floating sideways either before or after spinning. I took a reasonable number of measurements on that one journal but I don't have the gear to accurately measure it. The measurements did show something interesting - the case is well used and one of the rods is an odd size to the rest.
Measurements:
Crank
54.75
54.75
54.74
Case
Thrust
21.85
22.00
21.78
Line bore
66.54
66.44
66.43
Rods
54.72
54.72 54.50
54.72
The smaller rod above is the problem rod so my thinking is that the wrong bearing size may have been used by the previous builder and this promoted the bearing failure and spinning....or the spinning took away the perfect amount of metal to take the rod down a size.
Based on my searching the measurements would indicate the case has already been line bored 3 times with one line bore left in it and the crank has been ground once already. Seems the engine has been well used over time.
I'm pretty sure I've measured it as accurately as I could and am now trying to figure out which bearings to buy. Your suggestion of another rod would be a benefit as I could then get all the rod bearings at the same size......I think???
ragged ·
The con rod with the spun bearing needs to be binned. Not worth trying to repair. Find a second hand replacement.
The crank will need to have the big end (con rod) journals reground. the main bearing journal may just need a linish.
Take it to a professional crankshaft grinder and have him measure it up to see what it needs.
From what I saw of your crankcase, until that is measured up and checked, it may be reusable with just a clean up.
I have a feeling your motor may have been rebuilt, and a con rod bolt has come loose, causing the spun bearing.
Do you have the piston and cylinders for the engine? If so, put up a picture of the piston tops.
Dave
grumble ·
ragged wrote:The con rod with the spun bearing needs to be binned. Not worth trying to repair. Find a second hand replacement.
The crank will need to have the big end (con rod) journals reground. the main bearing journal may just need a linish.
Take it to a professional crankshaft grinder and have him measure it up to see what it needs.
From what I saw of your crankcase, until that is measured up and checked, it may be reusable with just a clean up.
I have a feeling your motor may have been rebuilt, and a con rod bolt has come loose, causing the spun bearing.
Do you have the piston and cylinders for the engine? If so, put up a picture of the piston tops.
Dave
I agree Dave,the rod was probably stretched prior to the last rebuild giving excess clearance and subsequent bearing failure. You are probably fortunate in that the conrod bot didn't break and come out through the top of the case like a lot of others I have seen in the last 45 years.There is no such thing as a cheap engine overhaul.
Les
Banshee777 ·
Don't have a picture but the piston tops are all coked up, the cylinders seem reasonable some still have the cross hatching but one has a very slight lip.
Banshee777 ·
I should have explained a it more in the first post that I'm giving this a go:
Make my mistakes on this pos and not on the good build, so aim is to be as cheap and cheerful as possible. I'm sure it will be cringeworthy but for me it fills the time while I can't work on the body or chassis.
Banshee777 ·
Pulled out the rest of the parts boxes and got to work on some more measurements today
Bore 92mm
Stroke 69mm
Which makes it an 1835cc motor 😂 bonus!!!
Heads are AMC
Measured the rod lengths, eye to eye and got
97.15
97.13
97.00 97.01 this was the bad one.
Not sure why there are two different lengths unless I got unlucky on taking crappy measurements.
psimitar ·
Take the rods to have the cap shoulder machined so the rods big end can be bored back to OE. The rod big ends take much of the beating of the bottom end and ovalling of the rods big end is fairly common.
The engine shop can also rebush and ream the small end as fairly likely they'll need attention too unless you have a
Banshee777 ·
Thanks psimitar.
....and as requested a photo of the pistons before and after a clean up today.
adlbeetle66 ·
You're certainly good with your WD40 and sand paper! 👍
Banshee777 ·
Lol, the piston tops were a strip wheel job 😎
ragged ·
When a big end bearing fails, it will allow the piston to move further in the cylinder, eventually the piston will hit the cylinder head. This is the noise that lets you know something has gone wrong.
I can't say for sure that piston has been hitting the head from the picture, but you can see how the edges of the piston have been washed clean. That is the tell tale sign that the oil ring is not controlling the oil, allowing too much oil to pass into the cylinder which will be burnt and exit the exhaust as blue smoke.
What you will need to measure on the piston is the ring grooves. This is where the rings sit, and it is the gap between the side of the ring and the piston groove that needs to be measured. Let me know if i need to explain more.
Dave
Banshee777 ·
I think I have it, so measure the remaining vertical space in the ring groove with the ring in place? What size am I looking for?
matberry ·
Looking for 0.0045"/inch of bore
92 need around 0.016" by memory
modnrod ·
Vertical space left in the piston groove with the ring in it, yes (piston ring land clearance).
I rekn once it's past .004" time for new ones if you want it to last and have good comp, new sets are 1/2 that usually.
Banshee777 ·
Got a new set of feeler gauges today and they are all around .004, won't take a .005.
Con rods have arrived today thanks to landfall, looking good and will use these instead of mine.
Banshee777 ·
Quick clean of the heads. Before and after.
psimitar ·
What did you use to clean the heads with? Seems to have worked pretty well.
Banshee777 ·
A can of degreaser each and left overnight in plastic bags. Then used a wire end brush to clean them up. Might need to be a bit gentler with the brush next time.
psimitar ·
Ah yea, the steel wire will bite into the softer ali heads but using a brass bristle drill brush just doesn't have the bite needed to remove carbon build up of either oil or combustion process.
No biggie as a mild flycut of the barrel seating face of the head would be advisable anyway to ensure no leaks once reassembled 😉
Bizarre ·
psimitar wrote:s a mild flycut of the barrel seating face of the head .... to ensure no leaks once reassembled 😉
As a minimum
Banshee777 ·
Started assembling the crank today and continued learning the hard way.....I heated the gears up on the BBQ but didn't get enough heat into the timing gear and it ended up stuck half way. Seeing as I didn't have the proper puller it took two torches to get it hot enough to remove. 2nd time round it was still a bastard to fit. I put the crank into the freezer for a half hour before I tried the distributor gear and that ended up getting a bit beaten before it too went on. I should be better at this when I'm doing the good engine......
psimitar ·
Just chuck em in a preheated oven for 30mins at 200C 🙂
psimitar ·
Bizarre wrote:
psimitar wrote:s a mild flycut of the barrel seating face of the head .... to ensure no leaks once reassembled 😉
As a minimum
Well it is a bush build 🙂 Up to him if he wants to go new guides, new exhaust valves, a valve seat re-cut and re-cut the inlet valves.
Banshee777 ·
....so my bearings and gasket kit arrived and I started putting the motor together. Bit of a juggle to get the crank into one case half but got there and a bearing jumped out of place......had to seperate the case 3 times.
Then onto the pistons and jugs which had to be done twice so I could get all the gudgeon pin clips in correctly. On to the heads, again done 3 times, last time with then tubes and push rods. Forgot about the 2 tin pieces, found one but have to take the heads off again to fit them.
Then the real fun started.....the distributor drive. I did not understand that you needed to have the distributor in before turning the engine so it would not walk off the crank gear.....took a long time to get it back out. Went to bed.
Up this morning, drive is in, distributor is on, have problems.
The drive is still able to ride up even with the distributor clamped in. Also have a lot of end play....60 thou when the crank is moved rocked back and forward by about 2 degrees. I'm stumped now and don't know what I've missed.
Banshee777 ·
Shot of the end play from the pulley end. Seems to prefer to turn anti clockwise rather than clockwise. Any clues on where I have gone wrong.
ragged ·
Is the flywheel fitted?
Banshee777 ·
No, I haven't got the flywheel on yet.
psimitar ·
Banshee777 wrote:No, I haven't got the flywheel on yet.
So before fitting the pistons and barrels you should have set the endfloat by fitting 2 shims and then torquing up the flywheel so you can measure the enfloat with a dial gauge. Then whatever endfloat you have minus 0.1mm and that's the thickness of shim required or change all three shims to get as close as possible to this figure. I use 0.09-0.1mm to set endfloat as manual says between 0.07-0.15mm.
Pistons on causes drag on the rods so you can't get a good dial gauge reading. 🙂
Banshee777 ·
Ok, I have't done it that way. With the flywheel on will the end play be reduced and allow the distributor drive to turn properly, and I can then set end play properly?. I'm a bit hung up on the distributor part not rotating freely at the moment.
psimitar ·
With the flywheel on and endfloat ser correctly the crank can't move as much back and forth in the case so it should stop the dizzy drive from Binding. Should being the operative word here.
trouble is the barrel s can't be on to allow correct setting of the endfloat. There's unfortunately a set way to assemble an engine and doing it the wrong way will just lead to problems in the future and cost you more time and money.
Banshee777 ·
Thanks Psimitar, looks like I'll be taking it apart again.
*Update*
So I've followed different build instructions from different people and have mixed the order up.
I should not have put the distributor in yet even though he does the end play after putting the cylinders on.
The other ones do the end play and then install the distributor and then the pistons etc.
Long story short - no distributor until the end-play is done....at least I think so.
psimitar ·
Do you have a workshop manual to do by or do you need a few pointers for the crank/cam/dizzy alignment? After that the rest is pretty straightforward 🙂
Banshee777 ·
Thanks, yes I'm using a Haynes workshop manual and various sources around the web. I can't blame the sources it's me that is making the mistakes but that is what I set out to do.
I've used the dragracingTV videos on youtube as I found them quite good. That's what I used for setting the distributor drive alignment but when I go back and look again - he has the flywheel on.😵💫😵💫😵💫 I just hope I haven't wrecked the distributor drive gear by the time I get it right.
psimitar ·
Nah, so long as you didn't force the motor turning when it went tight then should be fine. At worst you'll have made a slight low spot in the drive gears at the binding point but hopefully nothing noticeable.
I've seen some VW engine builders put the dizzy drive gear in when putting the crank in but altho a PITA to get it in the right place sometimes I find it better to do after setting the endfloat 🙂
adlbeetle66 ·
Using the Haynes manual is good, but i have found the Compleat Idiots Book is great! JMO
Banshee777 ·
One step forward and then ten steps backwards.
I put the flywheel on and a lot of my end play disappeared, my rough calculations put it at .009", so need another shim for the stack. I decided to fit the oil pump......what a cluster-.... on my part.
Put the housing in the right way and tapped it in with a hammer and wood with about a 5mm gap left to go. Then put on the cover and torqued it down to get it sealed.....mmmmm....not too keen on the bow in the pump plate. And the crank is jammed, won't turn.❗
Looks like the extra 110 camshaft that I had in the boxes and decided to throw in the engine has fouled the pump and I've destroyed the body taking it out. Took the whole thing apart again, split the cases and installed the std. cam. Now I need a new pump and cover.😠😠😠
State of the pump housing with the flange splitting from the body and the cover plate with a new impression and bowed.
Banshee777 ·
And this is where the cam bolt was fouling the pump body, and the damage my Neanderthal hammering did with driving the bolt head into the body and pushing the shaft into the cover plate.
ragged ·
the original cam was most likely a 'dished cam gear', with the oil pump to suit.
The 110 cam is a 'flat cam gear'. If you need to replace the oil pump, use the 110 cam and buy an oil pump to suit the flat cam.
At least you now know there are 2 types! And all after market cams use the flat gear. Dave
Banshee777 ·
Old dished cam is back in along with a new pump to match. End play is sorted and the main seal and flywheel are on. Distributor drive is still giving me grief with 3 tight spots.
psimitar ·
When you say dizzy drive do you mean the shaft that the dizzy offset drive lug fits into or are you on about the cam drive gear?
Just want to make sure plus ask if you checked both the crank and cam seperately for free rotation before then trying them together and again checking for free rotation?
If it is just the dizzy worm drive then could be it needs another shim or in your previous attempts you've bruised the soft crank dizzy drive gear and that's causing the tight spots.
Banshee777 ·
It's the dizzy worm drive. I have one shim in there already but I think I damaged the dizzy drive gear and that is causing the problems. Will try an additional shim.
psimitar ·
Ah. Yea, as I said the soft bronze can be easily bruised. If you find the bruising you could file them away but that would induce extra backlash. Still, if doing this on a budget it'll work for a good long while I'd think 🙂
Banshee777 ·
I already filed and peened the worst of the damage when I put the drive gear on the crank but I guess I didn't get it all. I think I'll just forge ahead and see what happens....
psimitar ·
The harder steel dizzy drive will very quickly flatten those tight spots out altho I can't say if it will end well. I'd defo do an oil change and filter clean after not many miles to remove any bronze shavings from the oil.
Banshee777 ·
Another bit of work on the engine today and we're getting closer to the moment of truth - will it start and how long before it dies......
The pressure plate and clutch are the wrong size and don't fit so not sure what is happening there. I should be able to still fit to the gearbox to start it. I put an extra 2 shims into the distributor drive gear and it seems a bit happier. Exhaust is yet to go on and I have to figure out how to fit the alternator pulley. Carb linkages seem to be half there so will have to rummage through the parts boxes and try and find the rest.
psimitar ·
🙂
Old Dubber ·
Your alternator pulley is on back the front. The piece with the "slots" fits on first over the shaft, so that it's on the back.
Banshee777 ·
Thanks OD, I've switched it around.
Banshee777 ·
Engine is mounted but no clutch or pressure plate. Next weekend will be the moment of truth. Still to go: set firing order, oil, petrol, wire the coil, find a battery.
Banshee777 ·
I've hit on the next problem. All oiled up, firing order is set, exhaust is on, new battery.......and it can barely turnover. With the spark plugs out it will spin like crazy. I think I have too much compression and may not have set the deck height correctly (aka not at all).
psimitar ·
Check that the engine turn by hand easily first. Why, cos if the wrong endfloat shims are fitted then it'll make the engine REAL tight to turn.
How do I know this? From experience 🙂
vlad01 ·
adlbeetle66 wrote:You're certainly good with your WD40 and sand paper! 👍
Paint stripper and a hose off will get them cleaner than that and no effort at all.
Banshee777 ·
Thanks PSimitar. If it cranks easily with the plugs out would that not indicate that the end float is not the issue? I really don't want to take the heads off for the 5th time.
psimitar ·
Heads won't need to come off. I'm meaning the endfloat shims on the flywheel.
If the engine turns fairly easy by hand then incorrect shims isn't the reason for slow cranking. Next I'd do a compression check as that sure can make an engine spin slowly if the comp is high.
Banshee777 ·
I meant take the heads off for a copper gasket or a shim under the jugs to lower the compression.
I tried it by hand just now and it's easy enough until it starts to compress and then gets a bit harder, you can hear the compression end and a little whoosh and then it becomes easier again.
My interest is really starting to wane now and I'm thinking of selling it. The engine was fun (and I'd still like to see it start) but I just can't devote the time to working on the body.
psimitar ·
Shame you're loosing interest after putting the effort into the engine.
As for the barrel shims, yes. Just need a syringe so you can accurately measure the combustion chamber. The barrel is obvioulsy the easy bit to measure 🙂
It's hard to say without turning the engine myself if it's high compression but from what you've said it's not tight and the wrong endfloat shims would make it tight all the way round.
If the battery is not in good health then not only will the motor turn slowly but can also lead to a weak spark due to voltage drop. this in turn means it's even harder for the engine to start.
ragged ·
Try another battery or re charge the one your using. Make sure you have a good earth strap from the battery to the gearbox too. Dave
Craig Torrens ·
Banshee777 wrote:I meant take the heads off for a copper gasket or a shim under the jugs to lower the compression.
I tried it by hand just now and it's easy enough until it starts to compress and then gets a bit harder, you can hear the compression end and a little whoosh and then it becomes easier again.
My interest is really starting to wane now and I'm thinking of selling it. The engine was fun (and I'd still like to see it start) but I just can't devote the time to working on the body.
Too much compression won't be your problem, so don't worry about that.....Just looking at your combustion chamber photo rules that out. Chambers look standard, so they are probably around 55cc. Even if you had no deck height you wouldn't have any more that 9.3:1 comp. Realistically, you probably have low 8:1 comp.
Check your earth and the quality of the battery like Ragged has said.
Banshee777 ·
Thanks guys, it was a brand new battery but I did melt the jumper cable that I was using for an earth. I'll try again with a better earth strap.
Craig Torrens ·
Banshee777 wrote:Thanks guys, it was a brand new battery but I did melt the jumper cable that I was using for an earth. I'll try again with a better earth strap.
you have just solved your own problem 😉
psimitar ·
Craig Torrens wrote:
Banshee777 wrote:Thanks guys, it was a brand new battery but I did melt the jumper cable that I was using for an earth. I'll try again with a better earth strap.
you have just solved your own problem 😉
Like 🙂
ragged ·
Just because it is a new battery does not mean it is fully charged.
Banshee777 wrote:Thanks guys, it was a brand new battery but I did melt the jumper cable that I was using for an earth. I'll try again with a better earth strap.
bevoracing ·
A worn srarter motor bush will cause the starter to drag onside and turn slowly. Change the bush whenever the engine is out.