Country Buggy Exhaust

Does anyone have drawings, dimentions, CAD files, detailed photos or all of the mentioned items for original CB exhaust?

My CB has the original engine but the OG exhaust was not with the car.

As best as I can remember, Bill Moore contracted a limited number of orders for reproductions of original spec CB exhaust systems as they came from the factory.
I have no specific knowledge of the numbers fabricated in that production run, or the fabricator, but I do remember they were done in stainless and looked like works of art. I will search my files for photos.
I'm sure some of you original AVD Aussie CB forum guys have some recollection of some of that production......Nathan, Graham, Steve Muller, etc.? ..... and can perhaps fill in some blanks.

Here is what I would suggest, based on info long posted in this forum:
1. Read the thread entitled Bill Moore's legacy http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=107807
2. Be proactive! Contact Steve Muller via the email addy offered in the above thread and inquire about Bill's CB exhaust data and file and ask if he can release it for public use. info@volksmuller.com.au

To quote the 1st post in the cited thread:

"As you all know, the passing of Bill Moore has left a real void in the international community of Australian Country Buggy enthusiasts. There have recently been a number of people concerned over Bill’s legacy and the future of Bill’s historical collection of CB related information, documents etc. In regards to this, Stephen Muller (Bill’s best mate and fellow CB enthusiast) has been given the role of custodian and accordingly is now in possession of Bill’s collection including his beloved Country Buggy. As I’m sure you can all appreciate this sizeable collection will take some time to go through, however rest assured that it’s in good hands and will be preserved for generations to come.In regards to the Australian Country Buggy Register, Bill made the decision to move that to volksculture.com where he could easily maintain it and link individual vehicles via KO number to associated albums of photos. Currently this is being maintained by Ashley Roan (co-founder of Volks Culture along with Bill and Stephen Muller).Please refer any further questions in regards to Bills historical collection and CB related information directly to Stephen Muller at info@volksmuller.com.au and information submissions for the Australian Country Buggy register to Ashley Roan at ashley@page2.com.auThe Australian Country Buggy Register can be found here: http://www.volksculture.com/group/country-buggy-register/page/country-buggy-register All the best Ash"

My CB has the original engine but the OG exhaust was not with the car.

I could be wrong, but due to the extremely limited number of CBs produced, I believe the exhaust systems were fabbed "in house" at Clayton or by an Aussie subcontractor for VW Australasia. The vehicle concept, design and execution was done entirely in Australia. Fabrication of the exhaust system in Germany ("OG") and shipment to OZ would not have made economic sense, IMO, since there was virtually nothing like this exhaust system used anywhere in the VW lineup of vehicles.

Regards,
Steve Koontz
Gas City, IN, USA

Found some pics of Randy Carlson's Old Bug CB restoration several years ago in California. These include several shots of the stainless exhaust.

http://www.oldbug.com/cbuggy.htm

The Country Buggy Register lists this as KO 273, Chassis # 118310277.
The are no pics of this CB on the Registry, although the pics are at the link above.

The original s/s reproduction mufflers were made for my C/B by Mcgrath Mobile Mufflers ,Freemans Reach ,Sydney. ph.0418 966 579 .ii Bill had a few more sets made made but the cost of manufacture was very high due to the low volume.
If you contact Bob Mcgrath tell him Paul sent you.

Regards Paul
ps I did recognise the muffler in the pics.

I appreciate the Information.

They looks very simple to make. If I had dimensions I could fabricate my own set. The photos help and it would be awesome to get some photos of the details of the Exhaust off someone's CB. Examples would be where does that stainless steel attach strap mountil to etc.

Thanks

I'm working on more details and finding more pics.
I have communicated with a couple of other CB people. Awaiting their replies, but it's the middle of the night in OZ.
We'll wind up with something workable here..........just don't start rolling, bending, welding this afternoon.
;-)

Regards,
Steve

Please PM me. I know you are a US owner.

Also, helpful dimensions would be:

-what diameter are the exhaust pipe that runs out the rear of the car just above the bumper?

- what is the length of the muffler tube?

- what is the diameter of the muffler tube?

- what is the length of the support strap?


I am pretty sure I can fabricate a set for my CB if I had these dimentions.

Thanks again

cb john may also have some info about the repro exhaust systems.
Pics of John total restoration of KO 271 shows some limited parts of an OEM style CB exhaust. Perhaps John will jump in here and tell us what he has and who fabbed it up for him. Knowing John's metal working skill set, I wouldn't be surprised at all if he made his own system.
Perhaps he can supply some additional pics and build specs of his exhaust system.
The following pics are posted at Volks Culture:

cb john's KO 271CB exhaust system:









KO 343:

I had to make new muffler about 30 years ago and what I did was got all the good bits were mostly heavy gauge ,then i rolled up some 16 Gauge mild steel and cut end caps all the bits from inside the original were ok as was one tail pipe but I couldn't get tail pipes of the same diameter so I had to use slightly bigger ones ,they are all in good condition ( I think ) and this is about the last thing I have to do before I start putting the whole Buggy back together, From memory the size of my the muffler is pretty close to the original size and I have one original tail pipe (I am about to try and get some pipe the same dia. instead of using my bigger ones) so if anyone wants some measurements I can help the.The other thing about the originals had 2 joining seams sticking out about 5 mm at 3'oclock and 9 o'clock but it is pretty hard to replicate that unless I start again.

The strap on top isn't standard (not a good idea to mount exhaust to body) the bottom one is.Bill never had specs drawn up as he had one right side NOS that the muffler bloke used as a sample. The size of the pipe is the same OD as a Beetle tailpipe ,we could only get that in s/s .The flanges out of the heads were bolted on to an engine & J pipes welded in situ.to get the angles correct. The rear J pipe came into the same front chamber as the front one ,the exhaust gas then went through a baffle towards the back & then forward to come out on the top.
I could draw it from memory if you need it .I could scan & email. I went trough my old C/B stuff all I could find was a vague photo from a dealer info sheet .
I still have a fair bit of documents of the C/B including an original NOS instruction manual(not a copy)if any interest send PM.

Regards Paul

ArtyP & southspark,
Gentlemen, whatever you or anyone else can lend to this discussion regarding your observed dimensions, your own examples via photos, data from original VW Australasia literature, etc., will be sincerely welcomed by CBKO294, and me as well.

I'm still wondering about the fabricator Bill originally had make a small batch of mufflers and pipes.........anyone know???

Frankly the forum isn't quite the same animal it previously was before we lost Bill Moore. He would want all of us to continue to contribute to the knowledge base in whatever way we can. Bill showed us the path, it is those remaining who must follow it, and emulate Bill's example.

I am beginning to scratch build a Country Buggy from a VW pan and this info on the exhaust helps a bunch. I doubt I can get it as nice as John's but hope to get close. Just trying to gather all the pertinent info I can right now. Being that my CB will be a custom scratch build the dimensions might not be good for my build but the photos and info will get me very close to what I need to make up.

Great group with lots of helpful people.

Hey CBFAN are you in the United States? You seem like you are on US time on most of your posts. I am in the midwest if you need any info or photos to help you out on your build shoot me an email.

I have a buddy who owns a welding business who has welded custom exhausts for people in the past. I will have him make my exhaust once I get the proper dimensions on length, circircumference , etc. I will be best if he makes it right off my car so he can get proper fit. If interested in a set for your project it would be easy for him to make an extra set at the time he makes mine. Just let me know if interested.

KO 211:

Hi there ztnoo ,too much Bacardi ? posted details yesterday.FYI

Mcgrath Mobile Mufflers 0418 966 579

It doesn't hurt to ask around.
There may be more than one answer to this topic.

I have a pair of original CB exaust 's... Are they needed for dimensions before it's too late? I have promised them to someone soon...

If you can do a dimensional take off of every aspect of the muffler, headers, and tail pipe, that would be much appreciated here. Any photos you can supply would be warmly welcomed as well.
👍

Hey Frog,

Exactlty what ztnoo said about the dimensions on the muffler, header, tail pipe etc. would be greatly appreciated.

Photos are alway great.

Thanks for your imput.

For Everyone's Information:

I posed the same question over at VW Country Buggy Australia Facebook Page.
There's a slightly different membership there than here at the CB Forum, so I thought doing so might elicit a greater body of knowledge from a broader audience.

I am getting some replies over there, but the real details some many people want to know, haven't emerged yet.
For Facebook users here at AVD, I would suggest meandering over to that site to check things out.

VW Country Buggy Australia Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/groups/302252683315626/

southspark,
PM sent.

CB muflers - for sale posted on December 20th, 2007 at 05:51 AM

http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=66649

"I have had another 5 sets of CB mufflers manufactured in Sydney by the same guy who has done the last 20 odd sets supplied over recent years.
The barrels are the same size as the original CB mufflers with similar internal baffles and are made in 1.5 stainless to last forever.
The set ( two each) of mufflers, tailpipes, header pipes, gaskets, clamps, nuts and bolts sell for $660 complete. I can parcel post anywhere at buyers cost.
The sets are made for 1300 or 1500 single port only and have pre heater pipes
If interested contact me at; countrybuggybill@hotmail.com

Bill Moore"

Apparently there is a jig in existence, although I haven’t seen it. I presume it’s the one that Bill used to get these made. I plan to make my own exhaust, after the motor has gone in, just as soon as I get a minute to get back to the project. I’ve looked at the 181 Thing pipes with a view to cutting them up but it might be just as easy to start from scratch. I bought an F125 motor years ago with the front bends still on it, pulled out of the box, so I’ll use them to get the muffler position. Never actually seen an original set. Interestingly looking at it yesterday the tip with the holes in it isn’t there any more. Must “slip” into the pipe.
My shortened single cab has an interesting set of home made high ground clearance pipes on it.
Cheers
Tony

Apparently there is a jig in existence

Tony,
Steve Muller said he is in possesion of it over at VW Country Buggy Australia Facebook.
For those AVD members who don't "do" Facebook, allow me to provide the information:

1. "Stephen Muller The jig is in my possession The cost is astronomical. I have also looked at getting the made o/s BUT minimum order was for 20 units Approx cost was $ 8-900. I can refresh the process again it's not something I can cover unless enough people put $ down to make it happen. I do have an original sample if some had a better contact"

2. "Stephen Muller The CB muffler run about 8 yrs ago was actually built by a friend of mine. Bill and I both worked on this project and many others as bill was my best friend. Bill applied himself to historical facts and I added in the mechanical facts We actually worked together with many a discussion. Basically Bills information is not lost a lot remains with me. Happy to share the knowledge too."

3. "Stephen Muller This was just before Bill died. It's not a 5 min exercise for me or the guy quoting this out. It will all depend on response The biggest hurdle was pre heat castings that's why it is going to be expensive Solution was a cheaper approach as per the the 10 built earlier. Even looked into buying cheap Brazilian type1 exhaust systems and cutting off the castings So to make them 100% correct was always going to be expensive."

* https://www.facebook.com/groups/302252683315626/

Just for the visually and intellectually curious about a VW Thing exhaust, I can see possibilities maybe going this route.

I have a complete set (minus Gail pipe) I'll take a photo of and post asap

cornwell
Nice offer -photos are good but measurements and drawings are even better.
I've gotta hijack this by asking - can I buy it?

Cheers Steve
ko668

Sorry, not for sale. I need to use it to Copy at some point in the near future.

To continue this muffler discussion, I have been looking around a bit more. I'm not saying this is a bolt on Saturday afternoon project, but the standard Thing exhaust for a '73 which had pre-heat pipes, but no heater boxes because the passenger's compartment was heated with a gas fired heater under the front bonnet, might be the most compatible, ready made system which roughly duplicates the original CB exhaust system.

The Thing had tailpipes which exited thru the bumpers rather than above the bumper on a CB. Rather than the tailpipe emanating from the center of the muffler body, the tailpipe opening exits the rear and is fitted with a zig zag tailpipe which allows it to pass through the bumper.

To me the beginning question would be what is the exhaust port to exhaust port width dimension on a 1300, 1200, or a 1500? Bill Moore's sets were supposedly for 1300s & 1500s. The second question would be assembled width dimension of the Thing muffler assembly from exhaust port mounting flange to flange?. I would assume that distance might be slightly great than the distance on a 1300 or 1500 engine, but I don't know that for fact. Things were equipped with 1600 two port engines. I would expect the dimension to be slightly different. But is that the case, there room for some novel innovation (spacers, short assemblies, etc.) to adapt this system to a CB.
This possibility might well prove cheaper than fabbing up something custom made. Just throwing ideas around.
It might be a reasonable compromise solution between the exact duplicate of a CB exhaust system and what can be some pretty hideous looking aftermarket systems. It would basically be the same layout as stock, if tailpipes could be bent to exit the CB body.

If this could be done for $500-$600 as opposed to something between $800-$1,000, there might be some interest out there.

http://www.jbugs.com/product/181251053G.html?Category_Code=vw-thing-stock-exhausts



Used: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1955746

Great thread Steve
Those Thing rear bends are available separately :-
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C23%2D35181%2D1
They are more costly than a complete beetle system but at least they attempt to have a difference from left to right to encourage movement of gas through the heat riser. You have to wonder if some of the cheap headers with the same casting both sides move anything at all?
The Thing tail pipes could come straight back under the bumper of a CB, not perfect but it could work. No way to get it up above the bumper in that short a distance. I bet if you took that J Bugs box, blocked the rear pipe and took a pipe straight out of the top it would work perfectly.
I think the distance across 13,15 &1600 heads, from exhaust flange to flange, is all the same (but now I’m going to have to go and measure it of course).
Not sure what CB John did, his seems to have pipes curving around like some sort of header. Definitely something different, but still with the ground clearance and out the right hole? He’s good.
No Facebook for me thanks Steve, you keep us posted.
Cheers
Tony

I bet if you took that J Bugs box, blocked the rear pipe and took a pipe straight out of the top it would work perfectly.

Tony,
My thoughts EXACTLY, but I was waiting for someone else to notice and make comment.

As long as the exhaust port/muffler flange assembly is as close in dimension as possible, and which can be made to work I'm sure with innovation, why not drill/bore a hole in the top or the muffler and weld a sleeve or a pipe stud to the upper side of the muffler, then duplicate a CB type tailpipe???

This setup isn't going to be accomplished for a few hundred dollars, but lacking the dribbling of ideas from those in possession of "The Jig", I'd give it a shot if I were in OZ and wanted a general looking, original concept, through the rear body openings for the CB exhaust system for probably half the price of the custom option.
Just one man's opinion.
Other opinions and commentary are ALWAYS welcome here.

Steve

Tony,
That cip1 spot is is good one.
I looked a little deeper into all that.
Currently they are having a Thanksgiving day sale on those parts until midnight (California time) Monday, November 28th.
It says Free Shipping during the sale on these items, but my guess is that means only here to US addresses.
I guess it would never hurt to ask if you are an overseas buyer. The worse they could say is NO.

Those parts are available separately: left & right side manifolds with pre-heat, and left and right side mufflers, all made for a '73 Thing.

C23-35181-1 - EXHAUST MANIFOLD - HEAD TO MUFFLER - LEFT SIDE - 73-74 THING
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C23%2D35181%2D1

C23-35182-1 - EXHAUST MANIFOLD - HEAD TO MUFFLER - RIGHT SIDE - 73-74 THING
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C23%2D35182%2D1

C23-35181 - MUFFLER WITH TAIL PIPE - LEFT SIDE - ELIMINATES HEATER BOX - 73-74 THING - (A10)
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C23%2D35181

C23-35182 - MUFFLER WITH TAIL PIPE - RIGHT SIDE - ELIMINATES HEATER BOX - 73-74 THING - (A10)
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C23%2D35182

Sale pricing: 66.49 + 66.49 + 127.49 + 127.49 = $ 387.96 USD (521.930 AUD)
Regular pricing: 69.99 +69.99 + 149.99 + 149.99 = $ 439.96 USD (591.658 AUD) Live mid-market rate 2016-11-25 12:16 UTC

Without shipping costs figured in, it appears to me to be approximately half the costs of the units as being talked about over on the CB Facebook site using the "jig".
Doesn't seem to be a lot of movement on this over there, and if there was, I speculate it would likely take a good bit of time to pull off......months maybe.
I think if I were interested in the cip1 set, I'd inquire about the possibility of getting as assembled exhaust flange to exhaust flange width dimension, get the measurement on a CB engine exhaust port to exhaust port width, and if those two dimensions are close, roll the dice.
Even if it required some modification, at least it looks like it could be done at a considerable savings from the cost of a "jig" fabbed set.

Again, just one man's opinion.

Hi Steve
I got my tape out and checked the dimensions across the exhaust port flanges, front to rear, of a 1300 F125 engine and a twin port 1600 engine, and they are in fact the same. So those Thing exhausts will bolt onto the engine. Of course I can’t check, but there’s an acre of room under a CB so I would say they will fit under the car too.
As for that Victorian one, if I had my TIG out and all the stainless on the bench, I wouldn’t put the boxes down there under the heads. He must have had his own reasons for doing that. Perhaps the plan is to hack the body up and “slam” it? That would be a shame.
Cheers
Tony

I see too much agonising about mufflers....I can provide measurements of the system...To copy it to original configuration is not simple but possible, if the cost is not taken into consideration...

John,
I'm sure whatever you, or anyone else, can offer in the way of accurate specifications would be greatly appreciated by those seeking real information about recreating a CB OEM style exhaust system.

It appears the gents in charge Bill's Moore's files aren't particularly interesting in releasing this information, at least it seems that way from other sites I follow. I guess I don't understand that mindset, because that wasn't the way Bill operated and it certainly wasn't his mind set. Bill was willing to share information with anyone and everyone.

Steve

Yes I would really appreciate any specs / numbers / dimensions on the exhaust.

Thanks to everyone that has posted information on this topic.

Hi everyone
Can any, or all, of you send me some details there was lots o chatter and some photos and concepts tossed about but keen on drawings and hand measurements to start with.

I'm ready to get an exhaust so I need details please.

Getting things together so need to try and get this puppy running!
Cheers
Steveo