Alright the last post covering this subject got a little silly so im not trying to risk my life or anyone elses on the road.I will just try explain the look im going for and maybe things might be sweet.I mean i was hopeing to hear anyones opinion on doing this.I believe it has never been done in Australia until now.My car is a 64 type 1 I have narrowed a beam 5 inches with adjusters it is in the process of getting powder coated i have oval gaurds on the front because they are wider,a w decklid and oval lights it is low but not that low the narrow beam is to draw the wheels closer and when running 135 or 125 on a set off 5 spokes looks damn kool im sure you agree,The wider gaurds gives a tubbed effect i have not done it to go lower but to go restocustomer....I promise i will do VW justice and i love my car i kiss her good night everynight im not going to damage her wheel arches to get this effect i just dont wanna hurt her.
if it jumps on any corner in the workshop she will go and we will sort her out.But this method truelly does work I have researched it.If I am wrong i will bare my ass naked in bourke street mall...lol
"D"
SKEWtYpe3 ·
Come on ppl support him on this one, no one deserves to see D's bare arse !
U will be the first to do it here, and you can report back and let them know what it is like.
kustomkool ·
Yeh sure buddy you will be puttin on the miles stancocic overalls and getting those pretty hands of yours dirty ya not gettin out of it that easy.Castor shims which were once called castor wedges[type 1 VW part number 111-401-239 very rare] will bring the built in castor to around 3 to 4 degrees which will give me the same built in caster.Along with a quicksteer will enable the car to handle better than a standard king and link pin suspension.
The dropped spindles also play a huge roll in all this which necter will explain.
SKEWtYpe3 ·
i am up for it D
and then after that we can go for a long drive north......................🙂
kustomkool ·
To many pot holes but we gotta get up and visit brother decked dubby who I believe is in the house today.
kustomkool ·
I think brother 3 toes is somewhere here i can smell him and necter finaly got to work good mornin vietnam...
HotRodMatt ·
You won't be the first. Heaps of people are running narrowed beams!
SKEWtYpe3 ·
they be running with shockers
dont forget the details, and there narrowed beems only reech 3 inches or so.....
XXX-1.8T ·
sounds good
will you post pics :bounce
Cant wait to see the final effect
:beer
SKEWtYpe3 ·
post a pic of a G F car D
show costa the crazyness!
kustomkool ·
Matt you now about this subject on volksrodder they have spoken in depth on the subject its safe no shocks...?
or it isnt.And do you now anyone running this set up i have spoken to Fred Hidalgos and hes doing it to stinkbug.
kustomkool ·
A 64 with oval gaurds and 5 inch narrowed beam no shocks drives phat..
SKEWtYpe3 ·
SWEET !
kustomkool ·
How can ya resist fellas i truelly cant
XXX-1.8T ·
got any more pics
looks hot:bounce
decked dubby ·
That's the way Dripper!!!:thumb
SKEWtYpe3 ·
ITS JUST CRAZY LIKE A STANCOCIC !
HotRodMatt ·
Couldn't say if no shocks is safe or not...
If you did run them without shocks there would have to be a pretty sturdy sway bar of some sort. The torsion bars alone will not push the trailing arms down sufficiently to keep a good traction. I'm not an engineer so I don't know the answer.
The only people I've seen successfully running without shocks have airbags - which when installed act as shocks anyway because a gas can be compressed.
If I was to go that narrow I would be looking at inboard suspension or using a dropped I beam or some such.
Matt.
BTW: I've six inch narrow on the road in oz. They still used shocks with considerable modification to the inner guards... Even 5" would necessitate some modification to inner guards and fuel tank.
[Edited on 8-10-2003 by HotRodMatt]
SKEWtYpe3 ·
the idea is that the shorter leaves are stronger and hold it up(cant twist as much)
the yanks have done this and it works
with it?
it wont be a speed vehicle, totaly cruzen
D is doing the mods withought cutting the guts of the car
shockers can be applied with this mod still
he's just checking it out
[Edited on 8-10-2003 by SKEWtYpe3]
3toes ·
That's lookin pretty horn D. When we going to see it out terrorising the neighbourhood with it's dodgy modifications?😀
HotRodMatt ·
To effect a 5" narrowing the body will have to be modified... the shocktowers and the endplates will come inside the inner guards.
My chop has this modification however I am soon to be cutting it out cause I'm not narrowing....
Unity-28 ·
Your Right Matt, I posted that in the "deleted" thread, Just the Tank will need "major" modifying.
N!
no slow 63 ·
<----------My front beam is narrowed 4 1/2 inches, and it drives beautiful.
I'm useing mini shockers though....
kustomkool ·
Nice ride man u in melb gotta hook up with us.u2u me with some details.lol
Chris dont worry my baby will be parked with yours at dovw just need a volountire to drive the rat square.
3toes ·
Sam'll drive it if we sell ours otherwise she'll be taking our square.
kustomkool ·
Whoever drives it ,its a streetsweeper...
Unity-28 ·
I gots to figure out how to get the 6tre there, and Also the Notch!:o
N!
Unity-28 ·
Get to bed you bum.......
😀
TheGermanFolks ·
damn, i just saw this thread. Go for it D. it will ride sweet. and BTW everybody, thats my car in that pic. i might be able to hit you guys up with a couple m.ore pics of the narrowed effect. if you wish
XXX-1.8T ·
hit us up mate
more pics please:bounce
TheGermanFolks ·
heres a little something.
TheGermanFolks ·
...
TheGermanFolks ·
...
TheGermanFolks ·
if you look closely, the white car in the front is my bucket right after i got it narrowed. you cant even see that there is a five spoke inside there. Also, oval fenders are 3/4 of an inch wider than a later fender. Im shaving off the bullets ( the vintage guys hate me, lol) and putting italian turnsignals on.
TheGermanFolks ·
the bucket the way it looked 2 days ago. i started stripping the crap off of it, i might just roll it around in bare metal. and its got a 5 inch narrowed beam WITHOUT SHOCK TOWERS, dropped spindles, castor shims, quicksteer, and of course 135's. and it rides better than stock.
kustomkool ·
Thats the shit Scotty boy...Keepin it rEAL..
speak to ya 2nite...
debugged ·
hi dubbers i am only new to this site. my mate had hes front beam narrowed with no shocks and it handled like a pig. then after about 6 months the nose of the chassis craked and was ready to snap off. un less set up properly ( with shock absorbers, heavy duty sway bar, castor shims, engineers certificate) i wouldnt do it to danger yours and other peoples lives just to look cool.
Cam ·
Give it a go dude. Logic tells me it will bounce, shockers basically keep your springs in check to keep the tires on the road. So shortening will stiffen the springs inside your beam and basically enhance this effect. But give it a go anyway, you're obviously a responsible guy who will sort it if things get out of hand :thumb
Golde60 ·
hey- glad the other post has died. i was reading it but i didnt want to contribute to such negative shiit.
i reckon good for you dames.
hope it works for you....
... i do tend to agree with cam, but different strokes for different folks (volks).
my idea for a narrowed beam is different and certainly more conservative than yours, and i certainly would nt want people criticising me cos its not the same as u.
keep it positive folks. no one else has the guts to try it. if it doesnt work, then more mods may be required....
...in my book thats progress!
go the drippers
when are we gonna catch up for that beer dames? do you still do the north melbourne public bar thing?
kustomkool ·
ive always been into hot rodding cars,I think thats what the Automotive kulture is all about pushin bounderies.Much love Cam and Kim your opinions count thanx for sharing it in a constuctive way.Kim we trying to orginise a drink this weekend call me if ya want.
SKEWtYpe3 ·
whens it in the car and when we in the garage?
u scope one out yet?
:bounce
Trayle D. the real oggfk ·
[Edited on 10-10-2003 by Trayle D. the real oggfk]
Unity-28 ·
BOOOOOM! About time someone with REAL knowledge on this matter posted on here (sorry SCOTT😀)
N!
[Edited on 10-10-2003 by Unity-28]
Trayle D. the real oggfk ·
Trayle D. the real oggfk wrote:Lets just clear the miths from the facts. Shocks do not hold your car up. They are merely a dampening device. The are to keep the wheels on the road. Running without shocks is not dangerous, it can be uncomfortable in some cases, but not dangerous. The comment earlier about the front end of the car being ready to crack off has nothing to do with a beam narrowed without shocks. It would actually be safe to say that because of the added tension that shocks add to your suspension, running shocks would have done this more than not running them So this makes no sence. Think about it.
Now my name is Trayle Duncan, you may or may not have read my name in Volksworld, VW trends, Hot VWs, and other international publications. My business is suspensions. I have a degree in Automotive and Automotive technology so my knowlegde is based in theory as much as experience. Now having said this I have narrowed no less than 100 beams over the years, ranging from as little as 1 inch to as much a 7 inches.
On a link pin beam narrowed less than 4 inches custom shock towers are an option. Though the closer you get to 4 inches the less they(shocks) become relivant. More than 4 inches and the need for them compared to the cost and labor involve in manufacturing a custom tower to miss the body makes no sence. It has been mentioned by someone here that narrowing the Leafs(some call them torsions) stiffens the ride. This is true. It also lesses the sping. So by narrowing a beam you are stiffening sping tension. thus lessening the need for a dampening devise. You wouldnt need a dampner(shock) on a car with a straight axle and no suppension would you? It would be useless. I invite any of you to come and take a ride in any car that has been installed with one of my beams without shock towers. You will be singing a completely different tune than what Ive read here.
There are lots of ways to make a narrowed beam ride well. I can make a narrowed beam without shocktowers ride so well that you would swear by them. There are angles that are built into a stock beam that must be reset when you add adjusters. You cant just set the adjusters where you want the car to sit and be done. You much have one beam tension fighting the other. "Steering axis inclination" is big part of handling. So proper shiming of the spindles is a must. Caster is a big part of drivability. Caster is a angle that is built into the beam. Its the anlge that the king pin sits in relation to the car. So shiming the beam to regain proper and OE spec. caster is a must. And on a narrowed beam a good(new) steering dampner is a must. Other wise you will have bad bumpsteer. The front end of a beetle weighs next to nothing. Seiously a mear weakling and lifted the weight of the car off the suspension. So by increasing the sping tension in the beam on a car that is so light you lessen the need for shocks. Ive been doing this for almost 10 years and have not had one complaint. People never believe it can be possible. But it quite simply is.
Now having said this, this is not true for a bus (splitty). The front of a bus weighs supstancialy more than a beetle and needs something to dampened spings from bouncing under the weight of the car.
[Edited on 10-10-2003 by Trayle D. the real oggfk]
Unity-28 ·
Trayle, Isnt it "easier" to narrow a bus beam and keep the shoch towers anyway, due to the fact the shock towers are quite wide, so therefore getting your narrowing out of that section, while retaining your shock mount?
N!
SKEWtYpe3 ·
Scott be good and the subject, Trayle be the god on this subject !
:bounce
Trayle D. the real oggfk ·
I make custome shock towers out of 3/8 inch plate steel for my bus beams. A bus beam is narrowed a little differently than a bug beam.
SKEWtYpe3 ·
here we go........
heheheheee
Trayle D. the real oggfk ·
The reason its easier to narrow a bus beam and keep shock towers is because there is like 3 inches of beam outside of the mount to the body. So you can loose that much meat from the beam and still have room for custom towers. Like I said, becuase of the wieght of a bus shocks are a must.
Unity-28 ·
Cheers! Trayle, whens that euro bug gonna be finished?
N!
Trayle D. the real oggfk ·
Soon my friend. Soon. Thats as close to a sneak preview as youre gonna get though..LOL.. I just coldnt find a picture of a wheel tucking as much.
"Priase the lowered"
Unity-28 ·
DAmn, I was trying to get a pic out of you! Nah its cool, I havent shown anyone what my 63 looks like yet either (prolly cause it dont look like much at the moment!)
N!
Mr Bubble Head ·
Well said Trayle its just a matter of time before people start changing there mind
A quick Q will the steering damper clear the fuel tank of and oval or will the mount have to be lowered/modded on the beam?
nIck
kustomkool ·
So there you have it kids,so rip those beams out chop em up.And ride like a PIMP ASS ....Mudda phucker
PRAISE THE LOWER....OILDRIPPERS WORLDWIDE ...Peace out to Trayle and Scott for the information and facts...
The has been a PHATTERTHANFUCK production....
Trayle D. the real oggfk ·
Nic the dampner will clear the tank no problem. It mounts to the inside tierod end and to the beam itself.
Hers a shot of a 6" beam from under the tank.
TheGermanFolks ·
well said Trayle.
Mr Bubble Head ·
Well I know what I'll be doing next weekend once the beam comes back from the blasters
out with the hackie and lose those shocks
Any tips on adjusting the steering ?
cheers
nIck
Golde60 ·
sorry man, just checked the forum and i guess i missed out this weekend.
thats ok cos i had enough drinks on saturday night for everyone.
head hurts🙁
TheGermanFolks ·
bubblehead- adjusting your steering is the same as with a stock beam, although, if you are narrowing more than 3.5 inches, i would recomend a quicksteer. they are made by bugpack. it extends the pitman arm.
amazer ·
Against better judgement I enter the conversation again, merely to gain clarification from an expert. I have an insatiable thirst for knowledge and so need to learn these things.
From previous comments I gather the type 1 doesnt need shock absorbers when narrowed because of its light weight. I'm wondering why all these guys are persisting with them in their formula vees then? I assume that the front end of a formula vee would be even lighter than a beetle.
A type 2 however is a heavier vehicle so it does need shocks. I am wondering why being a heavier vehicle, being a commercial designed to carry loads, why wasnt it fitted with heavier springs, and why wasnt it fitted with MUCH heavier springs to begin with cancelling out its heavier unladen weight, allowing it to run without shocks as per the type 1.
When a front wheel's suspension is compressed by uneven road surface (assuming that there is no such thing as a road flat as a sheet of glass - not in my part of the world at least), assuming that it indeed does compress after all it does "ride well" (assuming that means your fillings dont fall out) when that spring bounces back, what keeps that wheel in contact with the road? I assume that a car with wheels in the air doesnt handle too well (although would be comfortable providing there is no turbulance)
Lets just clear the miths from the facts. Shocks do not hold your car up. They are merely a dampening device. The are to keep the wheels on the road. Running without shocks is not dangerous, it can be uncomfortable in some cases, but not dangerous.
Doesnt the fact that the wheels leave the road make things even a little bit dangerous?
Will a 1965 volkswagen 1300 with a lowered and narrowed beam running 135's and no shocks, grip the road somewhere within kooee of a 1965 volkswagen 1300 with standard front height, track, shocks, and 165 tyres (the standard replacement)?
Adam_C ·
i duno obut the otherstuff. . . . but the formula vee's have a stock front end as per the rules and guidelines...... but continue
Cam ·
Formula vees remove the lower springs altogether and run a swaybar through the gap. Hence bringing the things lower. You do need shocks to keep wheels in contact with the road and a light car with heavier springs will only worsen the springning effect. I'm no expert but I have dabbled with club racing, mechanics, etc... and read a libary worth of suspension books. But still I am awaiting the opinion of a qualified expert before I have a definate stance on how a slow minimal use cruiser would be affected by this sort of set-up.
SKEWtYpe3 ·
the lower centre of gravity would play a huge part in keep the rubber on tar?
Cam ·
formula vees have the same centre of gravity of a beetle of the same height. But being mid engine they're far better balanced than a rear engined car.
Trayle D. the real oggfk ·
Cam wrote:Formula vees remove the lower springs altogether and run a swaybar through the gap. Hence bringing the things lower. You do need shocks to keep wheels in contact with the road and a light car with heavier springs will only worsen the springning effect. I'm no expert but I have dabbled with club racing, mechanics, etc... and read a libary worth of suspension books. But still I am awaiting the opinion of a qualified expert before I have a definate stance on how a slow minimal use cruiser would be affected by this sort of set-up.
This would answer your question of why formula Vs use shocks. Becuase if the bottom torsions are removed then it is way less spring tension. The wieght per spring tension is that of a heavier car. We are going in circles.
I have a question for you all. How many of you have ever lowered a car by removing leafs from either the top or bottom beam Or both?....... Please dont talk to me about "dangerous" if you have done this.
the statement about "tires leaving the road being dangerous" is the exact point. Once you narrow a beam more than 4 inches you make the hieght:spring ratio so great that the wheels cant leave the road due to an uneven road. Im glad you brought that up, you have illistrated the point exactly with your formula V analogy. Once we know that the leafs have been removed from the bottom beam we are talking about apples and oranges.
Trayle D. the real oggfk ·
Bro light cars with heavier springs creats more of a spring afect???????? So by your logic if I put a sping on the ground and hit it with a small hammer lightly, it will have the same affect as hitting it with a sledge hammer with all my force????? Come on bro. Listen to what it is you are saying.......
TheGermanFolks ·
yeah, what he said.
Unity-28 ·
Trayle, I have given up on trying to explain... And they all keep saying its illgal and dangerous, but yet in the tech section, someone critisizing narrowed beams was also telling someone to drill out some wheels for a different stud pattern, and use epoxy to cover the old holes!
N!
Trayle D. the real oggfk ·
A type 2 however is a heavier vehicle so it does need shocks. I am wondering why being a heavier vehicle, being a commercial designed to carry loads, why wasnt it fitted with heavier springs, and why wasnt it fitted with MUCH heavier springs to begin with cancelling out its heavier unladen weight, allowing it to run without shocks as per the type 1.
On a type II the wieght dispersement is much different from a beetle, For instance you site right on top of the suspension. The bus is fitted with heavier springs. So is a Cadillac but I wouldnt advocate running a Cadi without shocks. Im sure youve all seen what that looks like riding down the road. But because of the dead wieght of over a third of the beetle this is not a factor.
Look I realize this is something that is hard for you to grasp. But I am giving you all the answers. Have you done it??? I wonder. Have I done it??? Absolutely.
"You could get a look at a steak by sticking you head up a cows ass..... Buit wouldnt you rather take the butchers word for it???"
Trayle D. the real oggfk ·
Unity-28 wrote:Trayle, I have given up on trying to explain... And they all keep saying its illgal and dangerous, but yet in the tech section, someone critisizing narrowed beams was also telling someone to drill out some wheels for a different stud pattern, and use epoxy to cover the old holes!
N!
I know bro. 10 years of experience, more than 15 magazine featured cars, and over a hundred beams built. And Im giving Free advice, and getting arguements.
Here in the States we have a saying for this type of situation.
"You can lead a horse to water.. But you cant make it drink"
KruizinKombi ·
In Australia it is illegal to run a vehicle without shock absorbers when it was designed to have them. End of argument.
Unity-28 ·
Or you can say, "dont Knock it, till you try it". The thing that gets me is, I have never critisized anyone for doing what they like, It their car, they can do what they like, but as soon as we start saying what we want to do, Boom everyone is down on us like a fly to shiat! Not many of the guys on here have met me b4, so when they see the car in the flesh without knowing anything about it, they will be saying "nice ride" and all that, and thats when I will tell them exactly what mods are done, lets see what the reaction will be then?
N!
Trayle D. the real oggfk ·
Im gonna prove a piont here that not many will be able to argue with.
How many of you have ever removed your shocks and had them tested? Anyone???? Especially on a beetle. You could drive 50k miles with blown shocks on beetle an not even know it. Especially on a daily driver. I would guess that 7 out of 10 of you are driving on less than adequate shocks right now. Dangerous??? I dont think so... How many of you have the original shocks on your cars?? How many of you have EVER changed the shocks on your car?? Im gonna guess that there are a few that have never changed them. Would you say that you are in danger???? I think not.
Unity-28 ·
Kol, Its also illegal to run a car with a motor that was never put into it from factory. Both of these items however can be Engineered, so therefore there is a way around it. It is also illegal to drive around with you stereo full blast, but its being done all the time! Illegal to drive a car with visible rust...How many volksies have rust showing? The argument can go on and on!
N!
KruizinKombi ·
N, lower it by all means, narrow the beam if you want to, but make sure it is safe - not just for your own sake, but for the sake of other road users.
I haven't even read the whole thread. I saw someone giving advice that could get people into a lot of trouble with the law, so I felt obliged to post. By all means, go as low as you can, but find a way to incorporate shockers!! :thumb
*Edit: So just because other people do it, you think it's ok?
[Edited on 14-10-2003 by KruizinKombi]
Trayle D. the real oggfk ·
KruizinKombi wrote:In Australia it is illegal to run a vehicle without shock absorbers when it was designed to have them. End of argument.
No thats a whole different arguement.
It is here too my friend. It is also illegal to modify your suspension in any way(lowering or raising). It is illegal to modify your exhaust. It is illegal to...... You name it. We are talking about the handling of a custom car. Not the legality of it.
I see lots of cars with Modified suspension both here and in Australia. And in Europe. And hell everywere in the world.
TheGermanFolks ·
kombi- maybe next time you should read the whole thread before you post. that fact that it is illegal is irrelevant. what we are talkin about is the theory of how they work, and if they are safe. Not if it is illegal.
Unity-28 ·
Not at all Kol. And What im gonna say dont take it the wrong way either. I have actually stated earlier on a post somewhere, it might have bee the thread about 135's, that my car is going to be engineered through 00 motorsport (craig lowndes old car builder) And I will be running shocks, cause I have made brackets for the shocks and Airbags to funtion from. I have actually spoken to KK about this matter (who was the person to start this post) and Have told him how to do it, with shock towers. The other thing is, Im not doing this nor is KK doing this to be like the "others" We are purely doing it cause we like the look. We got critisized on a Now Deleted thread for wanting to have a "look" but doesnt everyone want a "look". And Believe me, if hotrodders can drive their cars without shocks and legally i might add, whats so different about a bug? The whole concept works. the narrower you go, the tighter the Torsions are, the better the ride. Simple!
N!
Trayle D. the real oggfk ·
You know what... Never mind. Unity is right. Why am I trying.
Look if you want a narrowed beam. The facts are in this thread. If you dont. Fine tpp. Its no skin of my back. You can believe all the wives tales you want . But for those of you who like to stand out in a crowd, dont be afraid to ask questions, do what you want, have fun with it. But by all means be safe. Do not lower your car by pulling leafs out of your front end. And That is a legal way to do it......Legal doesnt mean it right...
decked dubby ·
Trayle D. the real oggfk ·
ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Unity-28 ·
Damn Damo, AMEN!
😀
KruizinKombi ·
Scott, I have now read the entire post, not that it made any difference. I didn't come here to start an argument, but shockers are required on a road registered VW. Sure, you're not discussing the legalities because it's "irrelevant".
Irrelevant? Are you designing a trailer queen that won't even be able to be club registered? Or are you going to find an approved automotive engineer willing to put his head on the block by signing off on your car as being safe?
Please don't mistake me for a flamer. I love the look of really low cars. I just wouldn't drive one based on practicality.
Trayle, I do understand that we are talking about handling, and understand what you are saying about relative weights, etc. But why would a manufacturer fit shockers in the first place unless they help handling. Surely you are not trying to tell us that a Beetle will handle better without shockers than it does with them?
N, go for it, and I will be the first to pat you on the back and tell you what a great ride you've put together, because I really do admire this stuff. 🙂
As for the old rodders running without shocks legally though.... Old rods use leaf springs which have inherent damping qualities caused by the friction between spring leaves. Also, some older models were not designed with shock absorbers in the first place. 🙂
no slow 63 ·
The beam in my 69 is narrowed 4 1/2 inches......I might take my shocks out and see how it drives......But I spose I can't really say anything untill I do that....
Trayle D. the real oggfk ·
As for the old rodders running without shocks legally though.... Old rods use leaf springs which have inherent damping qualities caused by the friction between spring leaves. Also, some older models were not designed with shock absorbers in the first place.
Beetles use leaf srings also. They just happen to run inside the beam. Thats why they are called leafs and not torsions. This is getting silly.
"Leafs have inherent damping qualities caused by the friction between spring leaves"
Thank you. Some who knows what they are talking about at last.
Trayle D. the real oggfk ·
no slow 63 wrote:The beam in my 69 is narrowed 4 1/2 inches......I might take my shocks out and see how it drives......But I spose I can't really say anything untill I do that....
Why? If there was a way to do a 4.5 inch link pin beam with shocks that would be cost effective I would do it.
But to prove a point?... By all mean.
Your adjusters will have to be set alittle differently though. Lower one, and raise the other until you find the poinit where you are at the desired height and the arms are fighting eachother.
TheGermanFolks ·
Im done, this is getting retarded. we already went through this on the last thread. I stand by the fact that Trayle and myself are the only ones who ride on narrowed beams without shocks here, s if anyone knows if it is safe or not, it would be us, especially trayle who has a degree in this shit. Sorry for the free advice. wont happen again.
if anyone has any questions about narrowed beams, feel free to send me a U2U and I;d be happy to help you out.
[Edited on 14-10-2003 by TheGermanFolks]
Trayle D. the real oggfk ·
Hey Scott.....
LOL...........PRAISE THE LOWERED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[Edited on 14-10-2003 by Trayle D. the real oggfk]
[Edited on 14-10-2003 by Trayle D. the real oggfk]
TheGermanFolks ·
damn right, PRAISE THE LOWERED, MUTHAFUCKAS!
no slow 63 ·
Exactly.....to prove a point.
Everyone has their own theory on this , but they refuse to believe someone who has actually done it.....
57kombi ·
Germanfolks.
You say trayle and yourself are the only ones running without shocks.
Is that because you are both in the states and possibly have differant road rules to us in Australia.
Do you have to get it approved before you can go on the road in the states?, if not, that goes to show that it is totally differant to us???
Cam ·
Trayle D. the real oggfk wrote:
Cam wrote:Formula vees remove the lower springs altogether and run a swaybar through the gap. Hence bringing the things lower. You do need shocks to keep wheels in contact with the road and a light car with heavier springs will only worsen the springning effect. I'm no expert but I have dabbled with club racing, mechanics, etc... and read a libary worth of suspension books. But still I am awaiting the opinion of a qualified expert before I have a definate stance on how a slow minimal use cruiser would be affected by this sort of set-up.
This would answer your question of why formula Vs use shocks. Becuase if the bottom torsions are removed then it is way less spring tension. The wieght per spring tension is that of a heavier car. We are going in circles.
I have a question for you all. How many of you have ever lowered a car by removing leafs from either the top or bottom beam Or both?....... Please dont talk to me about "dangerous" if you have done this.
the statement about "tires leaving the road being dangerous" is the exact point. Once you narrow a beam more than 4 inches you make the hieght:spring ratio so great that the wheels cant leave the road due to an uneven road. Im glad you brought that up, you have illistrated the point exactly with your formula V analogy. Once we know that the leafs have been removed from the bottom beam we are talking about apples and oranges.
It's basically to lower it, because you can't add adjusters. Plus imagine a swaybar hanging under the front of a vee... OUCH!!!
What does less spring tension have to do with shocks? They use adjustable shocks as well, since they're so stringently restricted any adjustability they can get is a bonus.
All I'm saying is that with heavier spring rate you get more spring. Which shocks keep in check. So my obviously feeble logic and lack of experienced opinion tells me that you're going further in one direction and not evening out yur set-up?!?!?!
But then again I've had VW suspension defy logic before so am open minded about it. Just the shocks not being need because of extra spring tension does'nt make sense, since shocks react to even out springing, caused by the springs.
TheGermanFolks ·
57kombi- once agian, we arent talking about the legality of the issue, we are talking about the practicality. And it is Illegal to drive without shocks in the states, but we do it anyways. Im not saying that its legal, its just how WE do it.
Cam- when narrowing a beam, adjusters are put in place, you adjust the tension of the top set of leafs to "fight" the bottom set, wich as you put it "evens out the springing"
Trayle D. the real oggfk ·
All I'm saying is that with heavier spring rate you get more spring
This statement is incorrect. With heavier spring rating on a lighter car you get less sping and more rigid. If you were to put spings from a 18 wheeler in your VW it would ride stiff as hell. Shocks would be absolutely useless. IE: heavier spring =less spring compression Per lbs.
[Edited on 14-10-2003 by Trayle D. the real oggfk]
[Edited on 14-10-2003 by Trayle D. the real oggfk]
KruizinKombi ·
Trayle, I'm sure you would agree that there are some major differences between 'VW leaf springs' and 'conventional leaf springs'. Such as the fact that Vw front springs are more specifically referred to as 'laminated torsion bars' and have very different properties to a 'conventional leaf spring'.
To start with, their friction surfaces experience very little movement in comparison to those on a conventional leaf spring, and the friction surfaces on the VW torsion bars are greased to reduce friction even further.
I doubt very much that VW springs have the same kind of dampening qualities as a conventional leaf spring. Sorry, I just can't see it. I don't believe there is a comparison between the two.
As for narrowing the front beams, and effectively increasing the spring rate, yes I agree it would. That would occasionally prevent the vehicle from hitting the bump stops, but it would do absolutely nothing towards dampening the post-impact oscillations. The amplitude of the oscillation may be less, but the frequency would be the same. Not only that, but less amplitude in the oscillation means less movement in the torsion bars, giving even less damping friction!
Scott, surely when the suspension is modified by opposing the tension in the torsion bars, the suspension would then be softened, right? ie. lower spring rate. We are now back to the problem where severely low vehicles tend to bottom out over relatively minor undulations, which is one of the reasons why the spring rate is increased on lowered vehicles in the first place.
I'm sorry guys, but I just don't see it. I still believe a Beetle with no shockers would bounce around all over the place. It may work very well on smooth roads surfaces, but not on anything I've seen here in Australia.
kkool, fortunately I won't be there to see your bare naked arse running down Bourke Street Mall dodging trams!!! :P😀
[Edited on 14-10-2003 by KruizinKombi]
Trayle D. the real oggfk ·
Actually having the springs fight eachother works as the dampening device. One arm hold the tension in the up motion, the other in the down motion. What you end up with is travel controlled by tension in both directions. VW built this into its beams stock (check the set screws for the leafs on a stock beam, they arent in the same place on both beams). We just exaggerate it to compensate for the lack of a dampening device. Come on man, why would I tell you it works if it doesnt. What would I gain? If you were to try it and It didnt work I would be proving myself wrong? That makes no sense. I understand your skepticism, but for me it would be negligence to tell you this worked if it didnt. I am a trained professional with a degree.
kustomkool ·
So when you all see my ride at a show near you,Feel free to come up to me and tell me Im a fuckwit and a danger on the road.And all pimps feel free to jump in for a cruise.its all about looks This subject should be titled narrow minds......
Trayle D. the real oggfk ·
What you dont realize is that when I say Ive been doing this for 10 years is that I havent just been building them for people and saying "here you go". I been tinkering, testing, modifying, and just basicly trying to make it work as well as it looks. So you may not believe it, but I can take your stock beam, cut off the shocktowers, narrow it, fit some adjusters and have it back to you riding like a stock cars. You say it cant be done..... I say, Ive been doing it for 10 years now, and I dont call it theory anymore, I have it down to a science. Even down to lengthening the pitman arm to make up fo the change in steering geometery. Something Im sure you never thought about, but in 10 yeas of doing this and trying to perfect it. I have. Ill put it to the test, come to VW classic and Ill take you for a ride in any of these cars, you can judge for yourself
And toooooo many more satisfied customers to list..........
KruizinKombi ·
Thanks for the reply, Trayle. I have to admit that I still have some reservations, but you have replied sensibly to my objections everytime. I will (reluctantly) accept your word for it. As you've said, you've been doing it for 10 years. 😎
As for some of the other comments, people are going to have to accept that I'm not going to sit here and agree with everything somebody says. I want to understand the theory, especially when it conflicts with my current beliefs. I will also not sit here and blow smoke up someone's arse just because they have had their vehicle in a magazine, or because they have more money to spend on a car than me, or because they've owned more cars than me, etc. They have to put their mouth where their money is. ie. I am interested in talking to people and exchanging ideas, especially good ones. If people don't like that, that's their problem. 🙂
SKEWtYpe3 ·
i aint reading anymore, just looking at the snap-shots and the shiney bits 🙂
silver ·
These bugs all look like they are running positive camber on the front ends I think the would look a bit more Sporty with more negative camber ..
I lowered my first bug in 79'.First i removed the small leaves (that was a disaster then I replaced the first big leaves either side in both beams with more small ones that was little difference so I ended up putting all the leaves back in as standard and heated two big leaves in each beam till they were white hot and lost their temper, this takes the spring out of them and reduces them to just steel it lowered the ride about 3" and drove like crap because i still had the standard travel shocks...
Nowdays the bits are out there to do it with adjusters and or spindles and shorter shocks are available as well, so I personally would only go this way.......Safe is Best....
[Edited on 14-10-2003 by silver]
Trayle D. the real oggfk ·
Actually all those bugs are set to factory specs for camber. Only used the factory 10 shims and the arms are within the 9mm(1960 and earlier) and 8.5 (1961 and later) stock spec. for shimming. Must be an optical illusion you are getting from the angle of the fender to the wheel. Thas all I can figure.
[Edited on 14-10-2003 by Trayle D. the real oggfk]
Unity-28 ·
Positive camber?!?!?!? It looks like a stock front only shit loads narrower. And They do use Adjusters, and Spindles.
Final Word, To all the Haters, its a pleasure for you to Hate us, TO all the lovers of the look, Well what can I say, you have taste. Lets all agree to disagree, Bottom line is, if anyone was asking a simple question, and you had your post slammed the way this one has been, would you like it? I think the answer would be NO, So GROW UP! Driving a car with torsion leaves taken out of the beam, is a lot more dangerous than driving without shocks, Cause you are actually taking out some of the suspension it self, not just a dampener.
N!
[Edited on 14-10-2003 by Unity-28]
Trayle D. the real oggfk ·
Heres alittle more eye candy
Unity-28 ·
DAmn Trayle, NOw you just getting your post numbers up! 😀
N!
TheGermanFolks ·
damn trayle, chill with your big ass pictures.
Unity-28 ·
Scott, While your sending my splitters, can you also send me a pre 64 vert? PLEASE!!!!!😀
Trayle D. the real oggfk ·
That first picture of the 1955 oval ragtop was taken in 1992. That was one of the first street cars to be fitted with a narrowed beam. Scott Smiths black 1967 on OG BRMs was th first, built in 1989.
TheGermanFolks ·
no problemo. its on the way. lol
SKEWtYpe3 ·
u r hooked on the early Vert N
do this project and then u gotta b saving those pennies, so u can take me cruizing in the vert...
Unity-28 ·
F#@k! I will sell everything I own to get a early vert (except for the fuchs😀, Cause them gots to go on it!) Picture it, Candy Brandy Wine, Tan leather Int and top, a nice 1776, with skirts. What else could a Greek want!
N!
SKEWtYpe3 ·
hahahaaa
crack me up
some pumpin cruzen musik !
and a souvalaki maybe?
TheGermanFolks ·
SKEWtYpe3 ·
those plates rock my dome like a baja !
N wont be doing any work today !
Unity-28 ·
Hey Skew, when do I do any work? HEHE
No Souvs though, Might get Tzagiki on the leather, and we wouldnt want that now would we? Maybe the Zout Suit, and the picnic basket, and Ice box full of snacks and drinks, down the coast! (as Nectar wipes the drool from his mouth!)
N!
SKEWtYpe3 ·
Sounds good N !
maybe we'll pack some Kefte burgers to whack on the barbie 🙂
XXX-1.8T ·
Guys u got to GET TZATZIKI WITH IT!
Trayle D. the real oggfk ·
WTF is "TZATZIKI"????
Adam_C ·
Unity-28 wrote:What else could a Greek want!
N!
Concrete lion statues/ hood ornaments?
:P
Unity-28 ·
GARLIC SAUSE TRAYLE. THAT YUMMY WHITE SHIT IN ALL GREEK FOOD!
Adam, I might put a mini Acropolis on the hood instead of the VW badge......UMMM NO IM NOT!
N!
Trayle D. the real oggfk ·
Garlic sauce? Well why didnt you just say so...LOL..
Thought I was getting cussed at...LOL... I was about to LOC up..
[Edited on 15-10-2003 by Trayle D. the real oggfk]
Unity-28 ·
You might be "the man" for beams, but when it comes down to getting Fat from Greek food man, well I got ya beat! LOL
N!
Unity-28 ·
PS, Good to see a little laughter in here after all that....well what can you call it?
Trayle D. the real oggfk ·
I dont know much about some Greek food, other than Fellafel, but I can fuck up some food. I spent some time in the Med., ate some Greek food.
Unity-28 ·
Fellafal is Lebanese. Souvlaki is greek. When I get my ass over there, I will teach you a thing or two! LOL
XXX-1.8T ·
how many Greeks we have here on the forum?
Melb is Greek City!
Any Greek Oil Drippers?
Unity-28 ·
Every Greek Is an Oil dripper!
Seriously, I am!
SKEWtYpe3 ·
Dont be gettign the Greeks and greasy Lebo's mixed up Trayle.
its a similar thing to mixing up canadians and yanks....................
:alien
Unity-28 ·
Skewy, yuo really are STIRING THE POT Aint you!😀
N!
Cam ·
*ROTFLMAO* I can't believe how quickly that conversation changed.
You guys can have your sub's equipped slammed beetles, I'll cruize with you in my dumped splitty hearse. Although I'll have to lead so I don't run up anyones backside whilst wearing my white contacs 😀 (that was'nt even a funny cliche was it?... :cry)
Closing note on the beam topic. I've seen rods without shocks. Dunno how they do it, don't care. I'm open minded as to the fact it works, I can't logically figure it out so I guess I'll just have to drive one 😉
Big :thumb :thumb to KK for doing something unique, taking a risk and giving it a go. My hat is off to you, dude! 😎 I know I'll be getting the same hate (if not worse) when we start getting into our new project, which will also be taking influence from our stateside V-Bruvva's!
Peace out!
Cam
[Edited on 15-10-2003 by Cam]
XXX-1.8T ·
serious no wonder u boys got taste
U guys are Greek 🙂
Im a Lesbian from Lesbos how cool is that 🙂
SKEWtYpe3 ·
u play trivial persuit costa?
heheheh yeah, nah the whole greek/lebo thing was a big hassle at my hi skool.
both good ppl with great food, actually i was working in a greek restaraunt last month N !
:bounce
kustomkool ·
Greek food rocks spunnacapita [sorry for da spellin].About the narrowed beam a bit bummed out about the whole post.Was hopeing that I would got a bit more of a positive reply from the Oldschool veedubbers who paved the way for our passion of VW.Its put a negative reflection of something that was bound to happen sooner or later.man we are the next generation of vW heads and like you guys will always try something out that makes our rides look the way we want.
And we not on German Folks dicks we just got the same idealogies on what is the ultimate phat assed pimp ride.
And between feedin the kids payin the bills man I got shit left to go buyin every little thing I need in one swoop.I plan every part out and enjoy the search for it.
Bit by bit might take ages before each project is finished.Its mad fun part of the Kustom lifestyle and man when ya finaly get that bit in your hand .Its misses on the couch and you sleep with that baby...
Fuck I ramble on..
SKEWtYpe3 ·
u got it D !
when the cal look came in they were bagged by the olds of their time, now they b the olds and we be getting the bagging !
kustomkool ·
Like them we are also teased by overseas and we battle with the curse of the australian classic car collectors nightmare..LACK OF PARTS.We gotta look overseas for ideas etc.Cause we got noone here to help us out.
TheGermanFolks ·
speaking of a lack of parts, hey KK, wheres my shit?
kustomkool ·
God dam Scott took the whole shebang down and they made me sepperate the items so the V and the V both went separate from the other stash its on its way bud.You just bubble rap my baby and have it shined up for my pimp assed baby and ready to be shipped....And a nice check is stashed in the Ivory V for the Fenderskirts.your looking at 2-3 weeks for it to get at ya door .BOOYA.
squizy ·
What a great post full of great information.
It's all Tabouli to me......and roast and spuds.
Squiz......
KruizinKombi ·
I'd like to know when the term 'hate' came into this thread. Anybody who is assuming that I'm one of the 'haters' has definitely read me wrong.
Unity-28 ·
Its dirrected to anyone who doesnt like this kind of car. You have stated that you do like them, so not directed to you Col. Even though you werent agreeing with us, you were the only one who actually listened!:thumb
And believe me it was used very loosely. Its just a term.
Amazer sent me a u2u about that. Dont know why!?
N!
TheGermanFolks ·
hater- Noun- on who hates on another person because of what he has, or who he is. The hater has no legitimate reasons to hate, they just do it for the pleasure of it. the hater needs to be accepted, by anyone. wich forces the haters togeather. forming a hater tribe. 99% of the time, the hater is the guy driving a parts car, and feels the need to point out flaws in your reciently finished restoration.
KruizinKombi ·
Cool, on with the thread then! :thumb
N and I have been discussing BigBore's 'vert. I'm hoping that BigBore might give us some details.....
This didn't work last time I tried it, but here goes anyway....
SKEWtYpe3 ·
its a sweet car hey Col !
2 litre somethine isnt it, but i cant member.......
Cam ·
KruizinKombi wrote:I'd like to know when the term 'hate' came into this thread. Anybody who is assuming that I'm one of the 'haters' has definitely read me wrong.
Ditto! I reckon it's a grouse move. I just can't get my head around it, but have figured it obviously works a-ok and D is a top responsible bloke who would fix it in a flash if things went tits up.
PHAT BUG ·
Stop talkin shit, and get on with posting more pics of cars with narrowed beams.
After seeing these i'm definetly going to build a 6in narrowed for my Country Buggy!
decked dubby ·
:thumb
vwtyp2 ·
I'd be willing do donate my car to research one of Trayle's beams.
If he'd like to send me one f.o.c. I'll give a full written report on how it drives.
then we can sort this thing out once and for all. 🙂
PHAT BUG ·
This is nice!
PHAT BUG ·
But this is PIMPIN!!!!!
PHAT BUG ·
that my friends is 6 inches!
Trayle D. the real oggfk ·
UPDATE:
Myself and the rest of the Germanfolks are preparing a video that can be viewed of a 5 inch narrowed beam on a 1950 split window about 2 inches off the ground with no shocks in action. Video from inside the car outside the car and shots of the suspension up in the air so there can be no doubt that its the same car. "Are you ready to be amazed Bob? Amaze me Bob". This is for those of you who cant take "the butchers word for it".
kustomkool ·
I gots me a beam cut just need some more castor shims and cb performance dropped spindles.Dont worry Trayle anyone worth knowing about running a narrowed beams would already believe ya brother.Video of gFK rides running always a cool thang.Pass one on..
