Baja Wes ·
Sunday morning a group of us met to have a play, and see the real world difference between a buggy, baja and a few 4wd's.
Aussieveedubbers · General Chit Chat
Buggy/Baja VS 4WD
https://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/threads/15028/buggybaja-vs-4wd
Baja Wes ·
We tried 3 areas;
(1) the steep slippery hill,
(2) the easier but rutted hill,
(3) and an articulation circuit.
First up, the buggy.
(1) - no probs on the steep hill
(2) - no probs on the rutted hill
(3) - carried the wheels high on the articulation circuit but made it no probs
(1) the steep slippery hill,
(2) the easier but rutted hill,
(3) and an articulation circuit.
First up, the buggy.
(1) - no probs on the steep hill
(2) - no probs on the rutted hill
(3) - carried the wheels high on the articulation circuit but made it no probs
Baja Wes ·
Then the baja;
(1) roosted up the steep hill
(2) made the rutted hill look very easy
(3) made the articulation track look even easier
(1) roosted up the steep hill
(2) made the rutted hill look very easy
(3) made the articulation track look even easier
Baja Wes ·
The patrol was next;
(1) made the steep hill ok, although missed the course and went the wrong side of a tree on the first attempt
(2) made the rutted hill easy
(3) had a real struggle with the articulation circuit due to the long wheelbase. Impressive suspension travel but just too long. Did eventually make it though
(1) made the steep hill ok, although missed the course and went the wrong side of a tree on the first attempt
(2) made the rutted hill easy
(3) had a real struggle with the articulation circuit due to the long wheelbase. Impressive suspension travel but just too long. Did eventually make it though
Baja Wes ·
Then the hilux;
(1) no chance of doing the steep hill, not even with a big run up
(2) tricked by the baja into trying the rutted hill at the same slow speed on the first attempt, and failed. Second run was faster and made it fine
(3) Hilux's aren't known for their axle travel, and consequently struggled. Had to go around part of the difficult articulation section
(1) no chance of doing the steep hill, not even with a big run up
(2) tricked by the baja into trying the rutted hill at the same slow speed on the first attempt, and failed. Second run was faster and made it fine
(3) Hilux's aren't known for their axle travel, and consequently struggled. Had to go around part of the difficult articulation section
Baja Wes ·
lastly, the freelander;
(1) had a good go at the steep track despite the street tyres, but couldn't make it.
(2) amazed us by making it up the rutted track despite very little ground clearance
(3) had a struggle on the articulation track. Little wheel travel and bad approach angle was a problem. Shorter wheelbase helped, but could not tackle the articulation circuit directly over the difficult section, had to slightly go around it like the hilux.
So other drivers for the day, did all that sound about right?
(1) had a good go at the steep track despite the street tyres, but couldn't make it.
(2) amazed us by making it up the rutted track despite very little ground clearance
(3) had a struggle on the articulation track. Little wheel travel and bad approach angle was a problem. Shorter wheelbase helped, but could not tackle the articulation circuit directly over the difficult section, had to slightly go around it like the hilux.
So other drivers for the day, did all that sound about right?
Andy ·
Just a question,
Despite the obvious body differences, the buggy and baja are the same, so should have had the same results???
Well, I suppose they have different motors which may have swayed the results??
Looked like fun though, where's the Kombi's??? We need mor Kombi's!!!
😀
Despite the obvious body differences, the buggy and baja are the same, so should have had the same results???
Well, I suppose they have different motors which may have swayed the results??
Looked like fun though, where's the Kombi's??? We need mor Kombi's!!!
😀
SKEWtYpe3 ·
cool
its good to see some real tests done rather than the ones u read that make a product look good.
good work guys, fun and learning. good to see the toorak tractors can do it rough 🙂
its good to see some real tests done rather than the ones u read that make a product look good.
good work guys, fun and learning. good to see the toorak tractors can do it rough 🙂
Black_math ·
Hehe god old bajas😀:thumb
handycam ·
buggys and bajas have awsome wheelbase over 4x4s
daz67 ·
Quote: "The patrol was next;
(1) made the steep hill ok, although missed the course and went the wrong side of a tree on the first attempt
So other drivers for the day, did all that sound about right?"
-----------------------------------------------------
I went Left so I didn't run someone over, not only that the trees are very close on the right.
But to set the record straight, I did return and complete the circuit between the trees on the right.
A very good morning out, shame a few guys pulled out, but for those who came it was fun.
Thanks to Wes for the use of his backyard again.
Oh and Thanks for getting up early to meet us Wes.:P:P
(1) made the steep hill ok, although missed the course and went the wrong side of a tree on the first attempt
So other drivers for the day, did all that sound about right?"
-----------------------------------------------------
I went Left so I didn't run someone over, not only that the trees are very close on the right.
But to set the record straight, I did return and complete the circuit between the trees on the right.
A very good morning out, shame a few guys pulled out, but for those who came it was fun.
Thanks to Wes for the use of his backyard again.
Oh and Thanks for getting up early to meet us Wes.:P:P
baybuscamperkid ·
no pajeros? no kombis?
i know we have taken a pajero up slopes like that and around very difficult terrain with no problem, and i have a great artical about the powers of kombis on steep hills.
i know we have taken a pajero up slopes like that and around very difficult terrain with no problem, and i have a great artical about the powers of kombis on steep hills.
daz67 ·
Having owned a Pajero and a Kombi come to think of it. There is not a hope in Hell of you getting up the big hill.
But feel free to come and try.
Whoopss better check with Wes first.
But feel free to come and try.
Whoopss better check with Wes first.
Brad ·
In short Wes wrote the points that is the main differance :P:PAndy wrote:Just a question,
Despite the obvious body differences, the buggy and baja are the same, so should have had the same results???
Well, I suppose they have different motors which may have swayed the results??
Looked like fun though, where's the Kombi's??? We need mor Kombi's!!!
😀
Basically the SWB will get more wheel carriage on that particular track as it is a SWB. The baja has a longer wheel base so it is over the hump more which means it is less twisted which means less wheel travel. Wes can drive much slower than me also which aids in traction. It seems the V6 makes more low down grunt than my VW engine with a blocked idle circuit. I am also running street tyres not mudders so get less traction.
Anyway the end result is that the Baja made it look easier than the Buggy. I actually have more wheel travel than Wes due to my setup so the LWB does make a differance. Wes's baja does make it all look pretty easy. Much easier than the Patrol. Although when Mel was driving it seemed like a much more capable vehicle. 😀😀
All in all the hilux didn't do real well at all and last I heard Mick was heading home to work on his buggy so he could get up the hill :thumb:thumb
And the Buggy and Baja kick ass yet again....
From my side of the road I think Wes did a very honest write up. Glade he got out of bed and let us play... :thumb:thumb:thumb
Baja Wes ·
first of all, my prediction of what a kombi would do;
(1) no way in the world it would make it up the steep hill. Very few 4wd's make it, trust me it's more difficult than it looks.
(2) A kombi should make the rutted track with a bit of a run up
(3) A kombi would probably roll over on the articulation track.
Andy, the difference between the baja and buggy is about 14.5 inches.
Here's a couple of other cars that have previously tried;
A stock 76 two door range rover (3.5L V8);
(1) couldn't make the steep hill. low 2nd had the power but not enough speed, low 3rd had the speed but not the power
(2) made the rutted track easy
(3) made the articulation track ok, rangies have awesome wheel travel
A modified 76 two door rangie, 2 inch body lift, bigger tyres, more susp travel, stroked 4.3L V8
(1) had the HP to make the steep hill in low 3rd, spinning the wheels the whole way
(2) made the rutted track easy
(3) made the articulation track and even kept the wheels on the ground, awesome to watch.
(1) no way in the world it would make it up the steep hill. Very few 4wd's make it, trust me it's more difficult than it looks.
(2) A kombi should make the rutted track with a bit of a run up
(3) A kombi would probably roll over on the articulation track.
Andy, the difference between the baja and buggy is about 14.5 inches.
Here's a couple of other cars that have previously tried;
A stock 76 two door range rover (3.5L V8);
(1) couldn't make the steep hill. low 2nd had the power but not enough speed, low 3rd had the speed but not the power
(2) made the rutted track easy
(3) made the articulation track ok, rangies have awesome wheel travel
A modified 76 two door rangie, 2 inch body lift, bigger tyres, more susp travel, stroked 4.3L V8
(1) had the HP to make the steep hill in low 3rd, spinning the wheels the whole way
(2) made the rutted track easy
(3) made the articulation track and even kept the wheels on the ground, awesome to watch.
Cam ·
Next time you guys should time it. That would be cool😎
KruizinKombi ·
Sounds like fun guys, I wish I coulda been there with my old 2L FI kombi! 😀😀😀
daz67 ·
HEY COL, LET ME KNOW WHEN YOUR COMING, I HAVEN'T TOWED ANYONE FOR A WHILE!!!!
Not since the last Manx Club run when I towed a Kombi.....
Not since the last Manx Club run when I towed a Kombi.....
KruizinKombi ·
I probably wouldn't need towing, more winching to get it back on its wheels!!
Unfortunately, it died a few years ago, and I try to look after the current one a bit better. :thumb
Unfortunately, it died a few years ago, and I try to look after the current one a bit better. :thumb
Andy ·
Wes,
Even though I am a VW fan, and maybe showing my complete lack of 4wd experience here, but wouldn’t any half decent 4WD with similar mods to what you and Brad have done would come up at least on par? Particularly with diff locks etc??
As for the Kombi, firstly you forget the Kombi driver will be much happier, and have a bigger smile, and a dazed look in there eye’s. 😀
On the course, (1), (2), & (3), with 8 willing passengers their unstoppable!!!
On a serious note, I don’t think tipping over on 3 would be an issue in a Kombi?? Not much weight above the top of the motor/GB as in a Beetle.
I must say though I am truly impressed with the ease your Baja completes the course.
Andy
:thumb
Even though I am a VW fan, and maybe showing my complete lack of 4wd experience here, but wouldn’t any half decent 4WD with similar mods to what you and Brad have done would come up at least on par? Particularly with diff locks etc??
As for the Kombi, firstly you forget the Kombi driver will be much happier, and have a bigger smile, and a dazed look in there eye’s. 😀
On the course, (1), (2), & (3), with 8 willing passengers their unstoppable!!!
On a serious note, I don’t think tipping over on 3 would be an issue in a Kombi?? Not much weight above the top of the motor/GB as in a Beetle.
I must say though I am truly impressed with the ease your Baja completes the course.
Andy
:thumb
Baja Wes ·
Depends on your definition of similar mods. The patrol is a very tough beast, chunky tyres, raised suspension, and it struggles through the articulation circuit. Another friend had a hilux with a 3.8L V6 and 33 mud tyres, he tried (1) and slid sideways and got stuck on the trees.Andy wrote:Wes,
Even though I am a VW fan, and maybe showing my complete lack of 4wd experience here, but wouldn’t any half decent 4WD with similar mods
Well me and Brad don't have locked diff's, so it wouldn't be a very fair comparison would it. Sure a tough 4wd will handle the track, but you gotta spend a lot of money to make it go better than a budget VW offroader. I really don't have many susp mods helping me offroad, my rear suspension is really basically stock, same with the front, just raised a little. Andrew's manx did the articulation circuit fine and it is quite stock, swingaxle and all.Particularly with diff locks etc??
Having seen Graham's kombi stuck on the night nav run on a real bad angle I would say the kombi would be in danger of rolling. The bank on the night nav run was easy as pie compared to the articulation circuit, and the kombi didn't make that.On a serious note, I don’t think tipping over on 3 would be an issue in a Kombi?? Not much weight above the top of the motor/GB as in a Beetle.
Baja Wes ·
I'm glad you enjoyed the ride. :thumbAndy wrote:I must say though I am truly impressed with the ease your Baja completes the course.
Andy
:thumb
Basically, a 4WD is easier to drive, and with a bad driver will get most places easier than a VW with a bad driver.
However a VW is very capable with a good driver. Once the going gets real steep and tough, that's when the VW's start getting an advantage again, but only if your game.
The power to weight ratio and motorbike style can get them amazing places, further than most overweight 4WD's.
Once you go past that point you get into extreme 4WD territory where you see roll overs quite often. Then the tough locked 4WD's excel again.
VW's won't do the rockcrawling stuff either, not the extreme stuff anyway.
65square ·
don't forgrt that bajas & buggies are way cooler then 4WDs too!!
Andy ·
I suppose similar mods was a bad choice of words, I mainly meant a lot of effort spend modifying. As for the money spent, it’s definitely easier to spend a fortune on 4WD’s and I know a number of people who have spent more on a motor/trans than I have doing up Andy (and I spent WAY too much on that), but I’m sure you could do budget mods if you wanted to.
As for the diff locks, VW have a definite advantage here, you and Brad would be stuck if any ONE wheel off the ground meant no more traction as it does in a 4WD. A case where 2WD will do better than 4WD.
Must remember to keep Andy off those steep inclines then. As for the night nav run Andy made it to the finish just fine. 😀
VW’s just ruuullle…..
Andy
:thumb
As for the diff locks, VW have a definite advantage here, you and Brad would be stuck if any ONE wheel off the ground meant no more traction as it does in a 4WD. A case where 2WD will do better than 4WD.
Must remember to keep Andy off those steep inclines then. As for the night nav run Andy made it to the finish just fine. 😀
VW’s just ruuullle…..
Andy
:thumb
Baja Wes ·
Another place a good 4WD will do well is in sloppy mud, because the 4WD helps them steer better.
The range rovers have center diff locks standard, so they need to lift a front and rear to run into problems. The freelander had traction control that should also act like LSD's but didn't appear to be doing a hell of a lot.
The place where VW's will do better than 4wd's is stockton sand dunes. The power to weight ratio and light weight makes them excellent dune climbers.
The range rovers have center diff locks standard, so they need to lift a front and rear to run into problems. The freelander had traction control that should also act like LSD's but didn't appear to be doing a hell of a lot.
The place where VW's will do better than 4wd's is stockton sand dunes. The power to weight ratio and light weight makes them excellent dune climbers.
twoguns ·
hey wes. wot about bajas and buggies with stock style motors. would they succeed on ya course? stock like 1600tp. after all a buggy is only 510kg. i know where i was in gosford i used to give my buggy heaps up this rock trail that is closed to all bar feet. although i havent made it to the top for fear of tipping, i did keep trying.
Brad ·
A $WD has to get a front and a rear off the ground to loos traction. My buggy is just like half a $WD when it comes to traction.As for the diff locks, VW have a definite advantage here, you and Brad would be stuck if any ONE wheel off the ground meant no more traction as it does in a 4WD. A case where 2WD will do better than 4WD.
The open diff in a VW is no better or worse than any 4WD we just keep our wheels on the ground more.
As for a stock buggy. I would happily drive a 1600TP swing axle king pin manx up the track and around teh circuit. So who wants to lend me one to prove it 😀😀
Baja Wes ·
A 1600tp would do all the tracks fine. My friend took his swingalxe Baja with all terrain tyres and a crappy 1600TP up the real steep hill. It just takes a little more commitment as he had to keep it flat the whole way, backing off would've had him drop out of his powerband and lose his speed quickly.
I have the luxury of having too much HP and being able to backoff completely, then tromp it again and have it respond instantly. Ah, sweet EFI.
And if you think any 4WD would make it up the steep hill if the driver was crazy enough, you'd be wrong. Brad tried it in his hilux and failed, and he had some serious momentum.
I have the luxury of having too much HP and being able to backoff completely, then tromp it again and have it respond instantly. Ah, sweet EFI.
And if you think any 4WD would make it up the steep hill if the driver was crazy enough, you'd be wrong. Brad tried it in his hilux and failed, and he had some serious momentum.
Brad ·
Yes I must say the Hilux did SUX ... Now if only my Buggy could tow a car trailer and carry 1000kg in teh back I would have no need for such a vehicle....
KruizinKombi ·
Brad, that's why you need a kombi 😀
On the topic of lockers, I don't believe that a manx needs one. Sure it would be nice, but not necessary, because a manx is so much heavier at the rear than the front that it just lifts a front wheel and keeps both rears planted. :thumb No, I've never owned one, but I did see them in action in the hills behind the beach, and I was paying close attention. 😉
The buggy below wasn't going fast, and demonstrates quite nicely what I'm saying. Sorry about the picture quality, it was quite dark at the time and I've had to manipulate the image to lighten it up.
On the topic of lockers, I don't believe that a manx needs one. Sure it would be nice, but not necessary, because a manx is so much heavier at the rear than the front that it just lifts a front wheel and keeps both rears planted. :thumb No, I've never owned one, but I did see them in action in the hills behind the beach, and I was paying close attention. 😉
The buggy below wasn't going fast, and demonstrates quite nicely what I'm saying. Sorry about the picture quality, it was quite dark at the time and I've had to manipulate the image to lighten it up.
11CAB ·
Thats the Kings Bore Track up at Rainbow, and I had fun taking my "lowly" baja down it too...
Brad ·
From meory the only reason you got onto the Beach in your KOMBI was cause the Hilux was pulling it.Brad, that's why you need a kombi
Hilux's suck in comparison to Buggies but I would take one any day of the week over a Kombi ...😀
Craig Torrens ·
well my 1398cc "big bore"😀 Baja was fantastic offroad. (15 years ago!). Power was not a major issue ( everything felt fast on your P"s !)just had no brakes when you went through water, love drums!
I towed a Landcruiser and a Suzuki out of trouble, a "bet" they both lost😀 all with the mighty Baja !
I will have to post pics, if I can find a scanner!
I find that the driver plays a big part in how far a vehicle can go. When I bought my first Pajero I would always get stuck, or would not be able to negotiate difficult tracks, until I was shown what I was doing wrong! The biggest problem I had to learn was not to "charge" at something like I would in the Baja, instead slowly negotiate.
I was amazed at how much further I could take the vehicle, even with Sh#t wheel travel.
Anyway, good to see victory yet again to the Baja/buggy
I towed a Landcruiser and a Suzuki out of trouble, a "bet" they both lost😀 all with the mighty Baja !
I will have to post pics, if I can find a scanner!
I find that the driver plays a big part in how far a vehicle can go. When I bought my first Pajero I would always get stuck, or would not be able to negotiate difficult tracks, until I was shown what I was doing wrong! The biggest problem I had to learn was not to "charge" at something like I would in the Baja, instead slowly negotiate.
I was amazed at how much further I could take the vehicle, even with Sh#t wheel travel.
Anyway, good to see victory yet again to the Baja/buggy
KruizinKombi ·
Yes I needed a tow, but I'd never driven on sand before and, as you know, that idiot in the 4x4 with the trailer chewed the track up pretty good right before my turn. I don't recall having to be towed off the beach..... :P
I really don't consider that a stock kombi with stock sized tyres is any comparison to a Hilux. It will however tow a car trailer and carry a tonne in the back. :thumb
I really don't consider that a stock kombi with stock sized tyres is any comparison to a Hilux. It will however tow a car trailer and carry a tonne in the back. :thumb
Boozer ·
That's a pretty cool pic 11CAB, do you still have that baja?
Andy42 ·
Hmmm i reckon a kombi with a nice V6 in it would tow a car trailer very nicely. As long as the trailer had good electric brakes🙂
Andy ·
Now we're talkin'
KOMBI KOMBI KOMBI KOMBI
😀
KOMBI KOMBI KOMBI KOMBI
😀
11CAB ·
No, that Baja works up at Noosa now taking backpackers on trips......
daz67 ·
Quote:
"I towed a Landcruiser and a Suzuki out of trouble, a "bet" they both lost all with the mighty Baja !
I will have to post pics, if I can find a scanner! "
------------------------------------------------------
With a statement like that you have to show pictures. Especially of the rear cage on your Baja!
I get bagged all the time about the size and weight of my rear cage, but If your towing Landcruiser's out of Bog's then yours must be Huge. Either that or they are not very stuck!
Bring on the Pics!!!!!
"I towed a Landcruiser and a Suzuki out of trouble, a "bet" they both lost all with the mighty Baja !
I will have to post pics, if I can find a scanner! "
------------------------------------------------------
With a statement like that you have to show pictures. Especially of the rear cage on your Baja!
I get bagged all the time about the size and weight of my rear cage, but If your towing Landcruiser's out of Bog's then yours must be Huge. Either that or they are not very stuck!
Bring on the Pics!!!!!
Baja Wes ·
Not including rock crawling, if you can go through something or up something slowly in a 4WD, than it ain't that hard.Craig Torrens wrote:The biggest problem I had to learn was not to "charge" at something like I would in the Baja, instead slowly negotiate.
I was amazed at how much further I could take the vehicle, even with Sh#t wheel travel.
I can go up the hills slower in my Baja than most 4wd's will go (due to the low down torque, excellent grip and maintaining contact between the drive wheels and the ground). This was proven with the Hilux following me up the rutted hill at my speed, and getting stuck. Same story with the articulation track.
The situations I would rather be in a 4WD is steep hills that turn mid hill and have offcamber sections. The VW's have a habit of spinning both back wheels and sliding sideways on offcamber side angle sections (if your not careful).
Oh, and a 4wd is always going to carry a family and camping gear better.
Jamox ·
Could you loop the rope under and around etc the center of the rear torsion housings at the pan to give someone a tow in desperation? SUrely that would be as sound as anywhere??
Jamox ·
Woohoo. A manxclub banner is finally mine. What about the huge yellow ones Brad??? Or don't bajas count for them??
Thanks anyway mate
Jamie
Thanks anyway mate
Jamie
Brad ·
That yellow enough for ya ?
😀
😀
MickH ·
These banners are getting catchy:bounce
Brad ·
You think :o
Craig Torrens ·
Geez don't get me wrong guys, my V6 Pajero will be turned into a northshore shopping car to make way for my Buggy, I was just making the point that sometimes we don't get the best out of our vehicles.
:thumb
I'm still surprised the 4wd's performed that bad !
As for towing the Landcruiser, I used a combination of the towbar and the rear torsion tubes. Daz67, you have to remember this was when I was 17, not exactly 4wd expert drivers, so the landcruiser was probably not overly bogged. On the same day the Baja went further , that's all that counts !
😎
Daz67, looking at your cage why could you not do the same ? Looks Bloody strong !
:thumb
I'm still surprised the 4wd's performed that bad !
As for towing the Landcruiser, I used a combination of the towbar and the rear torsion tubes. Daz67, you have to remember this was when I was 17, not exactly 4wd expert drivers, so the landcruiser was probably not overly bogged. On the same day the Baja went further , that's all that counts !
😎
Daz67, looking at your cage why could you not do the same ? Looks Bloody strong !
11CAB ·
Daz67's rear cage is strong enough to snatch a bogged Kombi out of a mudhole....😀
Baja Wes ·
A bad driver in a 4WD will get further than a bad driver in a baja/buggy.Craig Torrens wrote:Geez don't get me wrong guys, my V6 Pajero will be turned into a northshore shopping car to make way for my Buggy, I was just making the point that sometimes we don't get the best out of our vehicles.
:thumb
I'm still surprised the 4wd's performed that bad !
The 4wd's didn't perform bad, it's just that the baja/buggy performed really well :thumb
Although the hills and tracks look like nothing in the pics, they are very difficult. The steep hill is so steep most people are scared to try it.
Craig Torrens ·
Always the problem with photo's, you can never show the "real" picture.
11CAB ·
Have you got any pics yet??
Jamox ·
Well and truly yellow enough mate!
Its a shame about the jealousy involved with respect to the baja though 😉
Cheers Brad
Jamox
Its a shame about the jealousy involved with respect to the baja though 😉
Cheers Brad
Jamox
daz67 ·
Quote:
"Daz67's rear cage is strong enough to snatch a bogged Kombi out of a mudhole.... "
-----------------------------------------------------
Graham,
You were not really bogged (Unlike myself earlier) so only needed a small pull, I suspect same as the Landcruiser in the previous post.
The weight of a Buggy or a Baja trying to lug something Large Landcruiser/Patrol dosen't really work if they are really stuck.
My rear cage is very strong, I ran it into a tree stump backwards, at the bottom of Wes's hill and did not mark it. We did have to lift the car off of it though.
"Daz67's rear cage is strong enough to snatch a bogged Kombi out of a mudhole.... "
-----------------------------------------------------
Graham,
You were not really bogged (Unlike myself earlier) so only needed a small pull, I suspect same as the Landcruiser in the previous post.
The weight of a Buggy or a Baja trying to lug something Large Landcruiser/Patrol dosen't really work if they are really stuck.
My rear cage is very strong, I ran it into a tree stump backwards, at the bottom of Wes's hill and did not mark it. We did have to lift the car off of it though.
Brad ·
I reckon I can tow your Patrol Dazza :o
Granted though I wouldn't want to respray it after I covered it in with dirt and moved it a foot ..!!😀😀
Granted though I wouldn't want to respray it after I covered it in with dirt and moved it a foot ..!!😀😀