so.. whats the deal with the million different types of dizzies made for aircooleds, and what makes the bosch 009 dizzy so good?
we have a 009 in the beetle, and the previous owners tuenr was adamant that we dont change the timing, and just check the points gap every so often, I have NFI why though.
Bizarre ·
Rota_Motor wrote:and what makes the bosch 009 dizzy so good?
They are not.
The 009 is a cheap convienent way to replace the stock dizzy.
Quality is poor and because they need no more than 32 degrees max advance the static timing can vary, where as the stock could be set at 7.5 before.
The reason your mechanic said not to touch it is probabally because he set it at 32 deg and if you set it statically at 7.5 it could change the 32 max setting.
The best dizzy is a SVDA - single vacuum dual advance. It has vacuum and centrifugal. Quality is heaps better and has a better curve. BUT they are like $200 US.
A 009 can be bought for $100 Aus.
I dont know if Aus VW's came with SVDA or just single vacuum
009 is also an easy hook up for dual carbs where getting a good vac signal can be diffucult at best.
The best set up is probabally a MSD where you can set your own spring curve be ....... $$$$$$
009s are also prone to suffer from flat spots. Especially when mate to a 34 Pict. A 30 Pict seems to run better.
Go to www.aircooled.net and have a look at the different ones for sale there. Also have a read of their tech articles. There are some dizzy articles there.
Barry
vw54 ·
Never had any of the above problems with my 3 cars using 009s in all of them.
You must be doing something wrong Barry???
Rota_Motor ·
ahh thanks for that, but why do you need to replace the standard dizzy at all?
these german things confuse me, most other cars I have seen, holden sixes, ford sixes, mazda 4 bangers, mazda rotaries, have vac and mechanical advance on all dizzys, you dont have fifty different options that all look standard, and they are all piss easy to set up 🙂
I read a thread somewhere explaining how to use a bosch electronic dizzy from a magna in a bug, thats sounding good right now 😉
helbus ·
What about standard dizzy with an electronic ignition kit installed?
An Empi or Acufire?
Bizarre ·
vw54 wrote:Never had any of the above problems with my 3 cars using 009s in all of them.
You must be doing something wrong Barry???
I am running them in the bus and bug
Cheap and easy. I like em - but thing can be better using other dizzies
oval TOFU ·
The best dizzy is a SVDA - single vacuum dual advance. It has vacuum and centrifugal. Quality is heaps better and has a better curve.
Is this the same as the dizzy that came with the 36hp engine? they'e both centrifugal and mechcanical arent they? Would if be compadible with a bigger carb - like a 30 or a 34?
Bizarre ·
Pretty sure the 36 hp motor had a vac only dizzy.
You are getting into the area or retard on dizzy post for #3 area. Changing dizzy in non dog house motors gets tricks
mnsKmobi ·
vw54 wrote:Never had any of the above problems with my 3 cars using 009s in all of them.
You must be doing something wrong Barry???
I read somewhere that the 009 can be better than a stock one just because the stock distributor is worn out.
I discovered on the weekend that my distributor (on a 2l kombi) is stuffed when I tried to set the timing. The vacuum unit "works" but has a leak, the base plate that it moved barely moved and the centrifugal weights were sticking. I'm now trying to work out whether to get a new one, a rebuilt one or fix the existing one.
Aircooled.net have new a vacuum advance unit (which I think is based on a 009) for US$120 and there are a few other rebuilt units around for less. The vacuum advance bit on its own varies from US$40 to >$US$100 depending on the distributor!
68AutoBug ·
I agree wholeheartedly with Blue74l,
Bosch 009 distributors are really the last dizzy You would want on an air cooled VW. But We all have them.... Yes I have one too.... But I would rather have the original vacuum advance dizzy that came with My engine.... Set up correctly they do the job OK....
I believe that many years ago, someone ?
said "these 009s are the bees knees in Dizzies" and the word spread like rapidfire , that You Had to have a 009, no other dizzy was acceptable..... on an air cooled VW..... Now if only We could find out who the idiot was..... probably from the USA.....
Lee
68AutoBug ·
Set up correctly, they will work DAVE.
but everyone knows they are Rubbish...
and they are NOT any better than the original.... Lee
MickH ·
Yep....the same thing happened with the Beta and VHS. Everone had a VHS but Beta was better.:bounce
Rota_Motor ·
thanks for all the replies guys, anyone else feel free to add your input.
I think we may have got a spare dizzy with the car, not sure what it is though.
and now I know timing needs to be set at around 30 max advance at around 3000 RPM and cant be set properly at idle.
vw54 ·
Set up correctly, they will work DAVE.
Lee you must not be a very good mechanic ???
70AutoStik ·
By a bizzare coincindence, an article in the latest "Street Machine" mentions exactly why we use a dizzy such as the 009: When we raise compression, increase overlap and tweak our mix, the thing get's bloody hard to start and won't go at lower revs. So we fit a dizzy with less total advance (the 009) and increase our static advance.
The beauty of aircooled.net's "SVDA" is that we get the vacuum "ported" advance back - giving us back our fuel economy (and more) and throttle response (we don't need to get so "bleeding edge" with the static timing.)
matara ·
I find the 009 more responsive when you floor it whereas the stock vacuum setup is smooth and progressive.
Stanley ·
68AutoBug wrote:but everyone knows they are Rubbish...
and they are NOT any better than the original.... Lee
I didn't know they were rubbish. Your the first person i've heard say their rubbish
I've heard there are bitter dizzies around
I'm no guru but i've never had a problem.
The fact that "everyone" knows there rubbish is that just heresay or are there facts to back this statement up.
From what i'm aware they have been used for years with no problems but as with technology advances there is always something better.
Does this mean we bag earlier technology.
Craig Torrens ·
vw54 wrote:Never had any of the above problems with my 3 cars using 009s in all of them.
You must be doing something wrong Barry???
I with you on this one Dave !
Firstly you should never go past 29 1/2 deg advance, so Barry your 32 deg is wrong ! What will happen (on a performance motor) is that it will stop reving past 5200rpm, it feels like you have a potato up your exhaust.
Lee, so how do you run a Standard dizzy with twin webbers ??? and how does the advance curve compare to the 009 ?
As for flat spots caused by a 009 when fitted to a standard motor, 9 out of ten times this occurs due to the fact that the carby has been tune to the "old" dizzy. Everyone then blames the new dizzy because it is showing how "out" the carby has been.
I run 009's on all my cars, not because of the price , but because I have had zero problems with them. And yes I rev past 7500rpm every gear change.
Too many wives tails regarding (new)009's🙁
Bizarre ·
Craig
Where did you get 29.5 degrees from
From ALL the reading i have done 32 degrees is the number.
Craig Torrens ·
Firstly from Stan Pobjoy, then through experience.
A new 009 has 22 deg advance, set at 7 1/2 static will give you 29 1/2 deg max advance. AND YES I EXPECT PEOPLE TO DISAGREE ABOUT STATIC TIMING. SO SET USING A LIGHT AT 29 1/2 Deg !!
:thumb
But I'm sure many have their opinions! But then I run Toyota points and a standard coil, and everyone says that's not possible either !😀
Bizarre ·
Not arguing here just a piece in MY puzzle
I have always heard you set the 009 statically at 10 degrees.
With 22 degrees advance that is obviously where the 32 degrees came from
Craig Torrens ·
7 1/2 deg BTDC static, when motor is cold. (as long as you know you have 22 deg advance). Well it is on my motor 😀
Stanley ·
Craig Torrens wrote:But I'm sure many have their opinions! But then I run Toyota points and a standard coil, and everyone says that's not possible either !😀
Why Toyota points ?
VWCOOL ·
Don't you mean Torana... Has a stronger spring to cope with 8000+rpm
As some have mentioned above, the 009 has a more aggressive advance curve than stock. It's a good performance dizzy - when you set it up right
Craig Torrens ·
The Toyota points I use have a stronger spring, like the Torana XU1 points. This stops any points bounce at high revs.:thumb
mnsKmobi ·
Craig Torrens wrote:The Toyota points I use have a stronger spring, like the Torana XU1 points. This stops any points bounce at high revs.:thumb
Or get rid of the points - no points bounce at all!:bounce:bounce:bounce
Craig Torrens ·
you could, then you loose the retard on no 3cyl.
Rota_Motor ·
Craig Torrens wrote:you could, then you loose the retard on no 3cyl.
whoa, they retard no.3 ?? surely youre making this up as you go along...
vw54 ·
Nope hes NOT making it up as he goes along Too many ears listening to OLD Wives tales.
Craig Torrens ·
Rota Motor, like your sig line says "....................,but I'm here to learn about Vw's"
Well you've just learnt something !😀
Thanks Dave :thumb
Bizarre ·
Ummm....Craig
Shirley you are running a dog house cooler???
Bizarre ·
Ummmm.... just thinking Craig
Haveny you lost your retardation (ok ok NO jokes PLEASE!) when you put your 009 in???
Ummm..... isnt the retardation caused by an offset on the post/cam and have NOTHING to do with points
By the way i believe you can get a Magfire/Petronixs thingie for a original dizzy with retardation
VWCOOL ·
yeah, but Craig's trophy cabinet is testament to the fact you don't need all that:bounce
vw54 ·
Craig means when you fit electronic ignition or magnafire system yes it does away with the points and teh retardation on # 3 yes which is driven of the cam lobe.
Bizarre ·
blue74l wrote:Shirley you are running a dog house cooler???
I will say again..... Surely you aint running a 36hp shroud on a 1916??? :o
Retardation is ONLY needed if the oil cooler is in the air flow of #3. (ie 36hp shroud)
Retardation is only possible if you have the correct lobed cam (ie 36hp dizzies)
You can get (i believe?) a 009 with the non-square shaft
You can get (i believe?) Magfire/Petronix/Compufire that fits a non-square shaft.
Barry
Stanley ·
Ok so when I use a dog house on my new motor what do i do with my 009 ?
VWCOOL ·
keep it - why would you change?
You gettin' all this, Rota? lol
Bizarre ·
KAfer
the oo9 is fine with a dog house.
It takes the oil cooler out of the air stream
VW retarded #3 with the 36HP shroud cause the oil cooler blocked air flow to that cylinder.
By rertarding #3 they got it to run a bit cooler than the other cylinders.
You "shouldnt" use a 009 with a 36HP shroud - especially with a modified motor
Bizarre ·
VWCOOL wrote:You gettin' all this, Rota? lol
heh heh heh
Rota - you sold the VW yet???
U must hate us! 😀
Stanley ·
Cool....(no pun intended)
Craig Torrens ·
blue74l wrote:Ummmm.... just thinking Craig
Haveny you lost your retardation (ok ok NO jokes PLEASE!) when you put your 009 in???
A 009 has 3 deg retard on #3 Barry.
Stanley ·
What about the sigma dizzy's is there any benefit to these.
Whats the part number to the 009 points have been having trouble getting them.
Bizarre ·
Craig Torrens wrote:A 009 has 3 deg retard on #3 Barry.
NOT a stocker it dont!
Craig Torrens ·
blue74l wrote:KAfer
the oo9 is fine with a dog house.
It takes the oil cooler out of the air stream
VW retarded #3 with the 36HP shroud cause the oil cooler blocked air flow to that cylinder.
By rertarding #3 they got it to run a bit cooler than the other cylinders.
You "shouldnt" use a 009 with a 36HP shroud - especially with a modified motor
But Barry a 009 has retard on #3 !!! so using your arguement, they are fine to use on a early style fan .
So Barry why didn't VW retard #4 as well, shares the same air as #3 ????
The retard was built in due to a leaning out problem on #3, the cooler just made things worse, it is not the sole source of the problem.
Craig Torrens ·
blue74l wrote:
Craig Torrens wrote:A 009 has 3 deg retard on #3 Barry.
NOT a stocker it dont!
So when did they change, all my "Stock" 009 have retard on #3 , even the one on my 36hp motor !
Rota_Motor ·
blue74l wrote:
VWCOOL wrote:You gettin' all this, Rota? lol
heh heh heh
Rota - you sold the VW yet???
U must hate us! 😀
HAH!! no, its all good, at least there is a reason, and if I run the right oil cooler and shroud, I dont need to worry about the retarding number 3 🙂
keep all this informative info coming 🙂
and while I got your attention, and your fingers, is standard beetle fuel line 1/4" or 5/16" ?? also is the engine number the number I can find stamped into the caase just below where the generator stand bolts on? thanks guys :kiss
Craig Torrens ·
that's right, number under generator stand, fuel line 5/16 I think !!! I run larger lines than standard as I have twin webbers!
Bizarre ·
Craig Torrens wrote:But Barry a 009 has retard on #3 !!! so using your arguement, they are fine to use on a early style fan .
For those that want to read some other information
Craig
Where do you get it that all 009s have retard on #3.
If that were true why does the Magfire disc that fits over the post fit in any direction.
EARLY dizzy this would not be possible cause the post is not square.
YES - i have "heard" you can get a 009 with retard BUT is not common. I have not seen one.
Craig Torrens ·
Barry , I stand corrected, if you purchase a new 009 today it does not have retard on #3 (so I have been told). All the 009's I have do, as they are about 10 years old, apparently they changed a couple of years back 🙁
So it sound like you need to check when you buy a 2nd hand 009 !!
More fun 😀
Rota_Motor ·
well I did a little to the beetle today, I replaced the fuel hose, found our fuel leak was a split rubber line from the tank, so that was good, also the car is missing the rear piece of tin around the motor, and the 009 dizzy, I looked to see if it had retard on #3, but I kept hitting my head on the engine cover so I gave up 😉
also is there a website or something where I can look up what the original capacity was from the engine number, or even what kind of car/year it originally came out in?
mnsKmobi ·
Rota_Motor wrote:also is there a website or something where I can look up what the original capacity was from the engine number, or even what kind of car/year it originally came out in?
Thought I'd throw in some info on the No.3 retard:
I believe all the original dizzy's had it (as made for the stationary engines,) and Bosch Germany continued making them until the mid-80's. If you have a Brazilian or Mexican "009" you can be confident it has no retard. If you have a german 009 you think is of later than about 84: If you have a degree pulley, simply switch the pickup for the strobe light from #1 to #3 and see if it's different. Most original pulleys line up rather accurately from the stamped indentations at all four TDCs, so you shouldn't have a problem checking it anyway.
Rota_Motor ·
hey guys, just been checking out the engine number sites, and I have a problem, our engine number is 9 digits, no letters, whereas all the listed ID's have one or two letters followed by up to 7 numbers.
our number is 126 *** *** can anyone help??
tassupervee ·
As matter if interest, i run a rather rare'ish Mallory twin point dizzy on my F-Vee.
It has adjustable rate of advance and total amount of ignition advance.