For those that have read the fraser island post, you will know I broke my clutch plate on the island, and drove about 300km's home with no clutch (it was stuck engaged).
For those that didn't read it, here are a couple of pics.
So the stock clutch didn't stand up to the punishment. Was it just a one-off poor quality clutch plate, who knows?
Does anyone know if someone makes high quality high HP clutch plates?
High torque pressure plates are well known, but I haven't heard of much in the way of clutches...
Doug Sweetman ·
Guessing you dont want to go to a button or puck style clutch disc ? as probably not flash for an offroader.
Have you considered taking the clutch plate to a clutch specialist and getting it relined ? can they do that ?
I should think that there will be something out there to suit.....
MickH ·
Hi Wes...good to see you made it home safely, in pieces....I have had the same problems over the years with different cars.....have opted for the Feramic plate in my Manx as I did for my Celica when I used to race...Never had a problem with them (4 puc)Mick motors should be able to sort you out or visit www.Chirco.com. Good luck!!!:bounce ps. wouldn't have had a problem if you had stayed Aircooled!!!!!(kidding).......................
Baja Wes ·
I would prefer to stay away from the puck clutches as I want it to remain smooth. How smooth was yours Mick?
Maybe I could get it relined, but I think it managed to bend the metal part of the plate too :o
I've heard Sherman has HD clutches, I will see what his looks like.
MickH ·
Very smooth....got a FERAMIC one in the Manx with the springs. The one on the steroid is a solid centre CERAMIC and it bites like a bitch....not that there is anything wrong with that😀, just file the teeth down first.........found that the standard clutches slipped badly with the stock pressure plate on the manx. Did not want to change the pressure plate to a Kennedy so opted for the feramic. No complaints.
*did* ·
check out our old clutch!
Kombicol ·
A mate done the same to the clutch in his kombi on moreton., he hade one specially made using an asbestos lining on the clutch plate and a very high pressure spring in the pressure plate from a late porsche. The porsche spring fitted into a kombi clutch plate housing - apparently the rivets lined right up. His pedal is very heavy now though. Will find out who did all this and let u know
Andy ·
A question for you Wes,
I'm guessing you don't do much clutch slipping with the torque of the V6???
So is the breakage due purely due to torque on a fully engauged clutch, or is it slipping under power?
Doesn't appear to have overheated (as in not slipping under power). If that's the case a different material may be all it needs as the spring & flywheel is fine??
Just a thought
:thumb
555bug ·
Wes pop down to direct clutch and have them make you a four puck with a sprun center, the best of both worlds 🙂 they have made me like 5 custom clutches over the years for differebt cars and all have been great.
Baja Wes ·
I'm guessing it died from power shifting into 2nd. The mazda pressure plate that I am using is quite strong and the clutch doesn't really slip at all. So I have the HD pressure plate, I just need a clutch plate to match.
Ben, I'm not clear what you meant, is the T3 clutch plate a HD item, or the same as the normal kombi. If it's the same then it is what I have already broken.
I don't know about going the 4 puck item, I don't need more torque capacity, I just need friction material that won't rip (kinda the same thing I know). Where abouts is direct clutch?
555bug ·
4 Bimbil street Albion, 38622680
steve down there has a 750hp rx3 that goes forwards in a hurry 🙂 On a tangent almost all the performance clutches in Australia are made by them and re baged by the various go fast shops. Anyway they will have the answer if you have the $$$
tonyg ·
Sherman has Fichtel and sachs 2800 lb (whatever; I recall about 60% stronger than standard kombi, no slip no grab)clutch and pressure plate
Baja Wes ·
I rang direct clutch, they reckon the best option is to just bond and rivet a new lining on the VW clutch plate (the stock one is just riveted). They say the bonding will not come apart and I won't have the problem I had.
The only possible side effect is 10% of bonded clutches get a slight clutch shudder on take off, because they take out the wave in the metal plate between the friction linings. I don't think this will be much of an issue.
So I think this sounds like the best option, all for the grand total of $80.
MickH ·
Gotta be happy with that!!!:bounce:bounce:party
1303Steve ·
Hi
I used a 228 Kombi clutch in my bug and i slipped it before the turbo was fitted. I spoke to RaceClutch (hes an VW racer) in Brizzy and he reckons 228s are useless to modify so I took his advice and went back to 215mm, he built me a great clutch for my bug. Ask him what he thinks of Kennedy clutches!
1302Steve
Baja Wes ·
After a bit of searching a few people seem to agree with the VW guru Gene Berg who said "What about the stock fabric type lining? - For many applications this is fine, however when high RPM is achieved you often blow this lining apart at the rivets".
So people are telling me the centrifugal forces are ripping the clutch plate apart, not so much the HP tearing it apart. I guess it wasn't designed to be doing almost 8,000rpm. Interesting.
Steve, maybe the guy at raceclutch was more referring to the 228mm pressure plate being useless and not worth modifying. If this is the case then it doesn't apply to me as I am not using the 228mm pressure plate. I have heaps of clamping pressure and not slipping problems.
It's just the friction material ripping off is a slight problem. I am trying to ring race clutch for a second opinion, but their phone is continually engaged or something strange....
oh, and I don't want more torque capacity, as I want the clutch to be the weakest link to prevent gearbox damage. But I want it to be the weakest link in a slipping kinda way not an exploding kinda way 😀
Baja Wes ·
I spoke to race clutch, he seems to know what he is on about. I am going to see him tomorrow to get his opinion. He doesn't seem to like the bonded and riveted technique, but I haven't really figured out what technique he does like yet.
Will find out tomorrow I guess.
Baja Wes ·
well I went and spoke to Jim from race clutch. He definitely knows his stuff, and I was there for 2 hours talking!
He doesn't like the bond and rivet method, and thinks it makes the clutch harsh and vibrate.
He had two options, modify a 944 clutch to suit, but still no gaurantee it won't explode. Machine my pressure plate and a couple of other things, all for around $275.
Other option was to send down south to have linings bonded and riveted to metal backing plates, and then riveted to the vw clutch disc. Shouldn't explode but maybe take 1 month or more and cost $375.
So I think I will investigate the HD clutches on the market.
After conducting a post mortem with Jim, it was decided that the clutch broke apart from too high a revs, and not due to HP. It had many stress cracks where it had obviously been starting to break for some time.
Baja Wes ·
ok, so my search for info has continued. Sachs calls the max speed of the clutch the burst speed. Sachs has this to say on their website...
"Facings are individually designed to match engine performance; in order to prevent facing damage even by operating error (such as downshifting at high speeds), the burst speed is designed to be 1.7–2.0 times the maximum engine speed."
So bascially, if I buy a late model 2.1lt syncro clutch (been told it's the strongest, although Sachs and Luk say it's the same as the other 228mm plates anyway) it should be able to handle at least 1.7 times the syncro's redline. So 1.7 x 5400 = 9180rpm. so it should be fine.
I also found a clutch facing material manufacturer that states the burst speed of it's linings are 12000rpm. I guess that reduces once you drill rivet holes through it, but still it seems ample.
I just kept thinking that the standard Mazda clutch is organic lined with nothing fancy and it survives just fine. So why shouldn't the vw clutch handle the same revs? At the moment I am leaning towards buying a good Sachs or Luk clutch plate as opposed to the no-name unit I have. What do you guys reckon, am I just being tight?
I want to keep the sprung center as I drive it as an everyday car in traffic and over obstacles offroad. The sprung center is there to eliminate weird driveline vibrations and harmonics. I have a 0.70:1 ratio 4th so driveline harmonics while highway cruising is something I want to reduce.
1303Steve ·
Hi Wes
The 2.1 WBX max revs are 6,250 rpm, even better.
1302Steve
MickH ·
Perhaps you were just "unlucky" with the original clutch and got a dud? If it was me I would be going for a name brand like the ones you suggested - would prefer the Luk one. Is it possible that the old clutch could have failed prematurely due to being wet/flogged etc on previous trips? You must admit it has probably had a hard life,although a short one! Still like the 4 puk feramic though......good luck:bounce
Craig Torrens ·
Wes I run a standard Vw clutch plate with a 1700lb kennedy. I know your car puts out a lot more horsepower, but if it is rev related , why haven't I had problems?
Are you sure it wasn't just a faulty part ?
Not that I know much about clutches:jesus
555bug ·
Wes after seeing your pictures on shoptalk I think you should first of all fix the PP surface 🙂 then stick in any old clutch and then have the whole lot (flywheel, clutch, PP) dynamically balanced. At least this way you are starting with a fresh slate allowing you to eliminate other possible weakness.
Baja Wes ·
555bug wrote:Wes after seeing your pictures on shoptalk I think you should first of all fix the PP surface 🙂 then stick in any old clutch and then have the whole lot (flywheel, clutch, PP) dynamically balanced. At least this way you are starting with a fresh slate allowing you to eliminate other possible weakness.
That's pretty much my plan.
And yes the other clutch probably was a dud. It had no brand name marking on it, and was bought from a supplier who is known for his crap quality parts. I was trying to save money at the time, although that never works in the long run does it 🙂
Craig, out of interest, how high do you rev your engine?
The 228mm clutch is subjected to higher centrifugal forces than the 200mm clutch at the same revs, because the 228mm is a bigger diameter.
But I agree it shouldn't have really come apart. It did not look water damaged or anything.
Craig Torrens ·
RE REVS: Most hillclimbs are approx 7500rpm gearchanges, 8k if I'm being stupid😀 or I need to make a corner without changing up (not that often)
It is safe to say over 7000 every change.
I didn't think about your bigger dia plate though !:jesus
Baja Wes ·
ok, so my plan is in action.
I have dropped my pressure plate and flywheel down to "direct clutch" to have the pressure plate machined flat, and the assembly dynamically balanced.
I bought a new genuine 228mm sachs clutch plate. The difference between it and my old one is quite noticable.
The old one has 6 springs the same size, a course rough looking lining, and brass looking solid rivets (apparently only relines normally have them).
The sachs has at least 3 different spring sizes designed to absorb various frequenct vibrations and makes the driveline smoother and quieter at idle and on the move. It also has a lining of material that is finer and neater, similar in appearance to the original mazda clutch. If looks are anything to go by, it should last heaps better than the old one 😀
Craig Torrens ·
:thumb
MickH ·
😀:thumb:bounce
KruizinKombi ·
Can I ask where you bought it and how much you paid?
Baja Wes ·
$156 from Import Advantage. I am in the VW drivers club so I basically get trade price at import advantage :thumb
I think the original no name clutch cost about $66 :o, you get what your pay for I suppose.
555bug ·
you will be happy with the work DIrect do 🙂 I'm sure this will solve your problems. Oh on a tangent can I borrow your Gtech some time?
Baja Wes ·
555bug wrote:can I borrow your Gtech some time?
yep. What are you timing?
555bug ·
My Honda at this stage, I built the engine around 4000km ago and I am interested to know what its making as I have left out the cams for the break in period. It runs very well but I think its a long way of what it used to run (then again i set my P to B at 2 thou as compared to my last reading of 10 thou so I guess there i s alot more friction ) However last time it was on a dyno it make 96kw at the wheels and ran a sub 7 0-100. It certainly does not feel that quick now though so I was just going to tune it with the Gtech 🙂
KruizinKombi ·
Thanks Wes. :thumb
Last time I bought a 2L clutch it was a generic brand that I got at trade price from my brother who worked at Burson's, and it still cost me $100. Other quotes I got started at $120.... :o
Next time I'll know where to look :thumb
tassupervee ·
Wes
Is the RaceClutch joint you are dealing with Aust. Comp. Clutch Supplies (Jim Berry)
If so you are speaking to the very best of hybrid and modified clutch guys in Australia.
I can understand how you can spend many hours with him and my phone bill from Tassie is always a killer after a "session" with him!
I have had a few clutches built by Jim over the years and you are correct to be suspicious of using a bonded and rivetted plate.
I have one of these, made by Jim, in my old Elfin F-Vee for no other reason that to have absolute minimum pedal movement for full disengagement.
It is a complete bastard of a clutch for everyday use, given it is a stock 180mm 6v spring type pressure plate, and is an absolute light switch to operate and fairly chattery on takeup.
However it is also a solid centred plate as well. rather looks like an old circular saw blade hehehehehe!
My old turbo Capri used a bonded and rivetted, sprung centred plate and altho it was not anywhere near as chattery as the kraut F-Vee item, its action was still very, very fierce and required a bit of concentration to get off the line without stalling.
It was always a laugh to put mates in the car and pay out on them as they stalled it time and time again!
Fitchel & Sachs have made quality clutch components for many years.
Good luck with it.
L8tr
E
Baja Wes ·
tassupervee wrote:Wes
Is the RaceClutch joint you are dealing with Aust. Comp. Clutch Supplies (Jim Berry)
yep, that's him. He certainly has some stories to tell, and he is the man!
I'm feeling pretty confident that the sachs clutch will stand up to it. It's not like I'm making huge HP or doing drag launches or anything.
Baja Wes ·
just an update. I braved the hot humid weather and stuck it out in the shed long enough to put my Baja back together on xmas eve.
Let me say, the sachs clutch is smooth.
When I had the old clutch in, I would get the occasional clutch shudder when using the clutch lightly, like reversing out of peoples driveways and stuff. I tried putting more bend in the bowden tube and doing the bellhousing strap up really tight, put it was always there.
With the new clutch, it's gone! No shudders, smoother take-up, more forgiving to drive. It's very nice. I'm very happy. :thumb
Bizarre ·
So that warp in the pressure plate is gone ?? or better plate design??
tassupervee ·
Wes hit on it in an earlier post with the fitting of different weight springs.
They seem to help dampen the ocillations or "harmonics" if you like where the plate come under load, winds up and then unwinds against the springs causing the shudder.
Same as disconnecting your shocks and going for a drive where the suspension will boing up and down at the, for want of a better term "resonant frequency" of the springs !!!
I had a clutch p[late made years ago for my old capri where 3 of the springs were substituted with rubber blocks.
pretty agricultural but is worked OK.
L8tr
E
Baja Wes ·
The pressure plate wasn't warped, it was worn in a concave shape. Althought it would cause uneven wear I wouldn't have thought it would be the cause of the shudder.
I think the different spring sizes in the sachs clutch helps (as opposed to 6 equal springs in the other one). I also think the clutch plate itself is much more flexible.
Taz, a lot of the jap clutch plates, including the original MX6 plate had 6 elastomer rubbers instead of springs. Jim said the jap rubbers work really well. He said some american company copies the idea but their rubbers break. bit of trivia :thumb
tassupervee ·
Eyewww
My clutch was made in Sydney by gawd only knows as it was a hybrid between my Fitchel & Sachs BMW M3 pressure plate and the 1600 pushrod Ford engine machine to suit a Ford 2 litre clutch.
Bit of a mixmaster.
The three springs survived ok but the rubber blocks eventually stuffed up and ended up coming out of their hidey holes and flapping about between the plate and the diaphragm fingers.
Made some very odd noises whilst clutch in and in gear heheheheh!
Of course Jim made me another plate!
L8tr
E
Andy ·
Wes,
Just an interesting point, I picked up a Sachs 'kit' recently (clutch plate, pressure plate, throw out bearing + grease) and all springs were the same size!
The old Sachs plate was like yours!!!!
(2L type 4 motor/GB)
Not realy related but the original clutch in my 1600TP beetle had springs in the plate, but the replacement was solid. I have not liked it since it has been in (I have a replacement for the next time the motor is out). It's harder to do a smooth take off and is jerkier when going from on throttle to off throttle.
Andy
tassupervee ·
Andy
That seems to be the way things go with off the shelf Kraut clutches.
I needed to replace the clutch plate in my old F-vee (36 Hp. 180mm) and I was unable to source, off the shelf, a sprung centered driven plate.
All they seem to supply is solid centered plates and i agree with you that the clutch action is certainly more abrupt and harsh and prone to shuddering when using the clutch lightly such as reversing out of parking spots and that type of thing.
Oh well.
L8tr
E
Andy ·
Hey Taz, Mick Motors has South African ones (I only got the friction plate, the rest is Sachs) on the shelf with springs for the 1600TP. I haven't installed one yet so can't say how good/bad they are.
Cheers,
Andy
tassupervee ·
Cewl
let me know how they perform dude.
Trouble is I am selling that old Vee so someone else has to deal with it now LOL
L8tr
E