Following in the footsteps of our man Wes, I to have taken a SAE documents cad drawings of an ej20...then superimposed a 1300 vw engine for scale reference. Now I do not presume to be as capable as Wes when it comes to such matters as my field is IT not engineering so take all measurments with a pince of salt (although I spent a while trying to get them as accurate as possiable) any input is warmy received..unless of course you are telling me I have made an error...in which case you can get stuffed LOL
555bug ·
and of coures a front view
Phil74Camper ·
Hmmm, looks like it would fit in a Kombi engine bay without too much trouble. Except for that sump - it really hangs down low.
Buggy Boyz ·
It fits is real well and teh sump can be shortened quite a bit with a little time. Haveing recently going for a drive in an EJ20 powered Kombi I can happily say it is well worth teh effort and for teh cost I wouldn't consider a type 4 rebuild..
Baja Wes ·
finally I have a protege :kiss.
Man that sump is rad. And people were complaining the V6 sump would be too low!!!
That SAE paper was good hey.
I got the scaling on my overlays by using 1 pixel = 1mm. I scaled the pic to suit by using a known reference like the bore/stroke.
PS - being an IT person I thought you'd have file types figured. When you do diagrams like that save them as *.gif. They will be heaps smaller files and won't get the crap jpeg fuss to them.
555bug ·
well, first off there are many easier conversions. An ea82t will slot in with minimal work, as to would a nice 13b. Both of these engines can make a honest 200hp with a little bit of effort. The major appeal of the EJ20T is of course that most people think that it is not possiable. Well it is!! but there is loads of work involved. In my case I have started with the pan, as my car is a 61 I was not satisfyed with the king and link / swin axel setup. So I drove down to Lismore to see Marcel from here and I purchased his 69 semi auto pan. I blasted it, POr15 it and cut the top of the tunnel and gutted it. I then fitted ss pipe front to rear + 2 fuel lines + 3 hydraulic lines + 2 handbreak lines. I've trial mounted the kombi 2L box and its about 100mm in & up so new mount sneed to be fabbed to suit. I've also made up a cable shifter from parts from a Levin so it really don't matter where the box sits. I also fitted 944 Porshe brakes fron and rear + traling arms etc.. I've cut up the rear of my bug as a lot of work will be involved in refabricating the rear as there is no longer a rear firewall or floor, however that was my initial plan as this is to be a two seater. I'm also building a pedal box as everything is going to be hydraulic ... god knows what else..anyway watch this spot as I'm finishing up uni so hopefully funds and time will free up. Anyway the quest for the first honest (all steal) 300hp 61 bug continued 🙂
kombi_kid ·
hey
what HP wil lthe 2L kombi box's hold? if you did a EJ20T conversion in a kombi and planted it would the box stand it? how about that same sceniro with a V6 like urs wes? or is it necessery to upgrade to a porsche boix etc?
cheers
rhys
Hutcho ·
Thought id ask this question on this "ea" thread so as to not upset anyone. What do I need to do to bolt an EA motor to a VW box. Besides the adapter plate.
555bug ·
terry, theres a guy (you may already know) over in Windsor who has put an EJ20 in a manx, appanently he was unable to go turbo due to weight...oh hold the phone youre talking about a baja. Well that should be very easy, have you seen the gold baja (i think the guys name is steve) its got a ej20t from a liberty? apparently that thing can light up in fourth!!
as far as gearbox's go..well the 5rib 76+ kombi is the strongest box that vw produced, its weak points are third and fourth, but at a guess I imagine that it could hold 200~250hp if treated with respect, however alvins gears can be used making the box bullit proof (2k though 🙁 ) The thing to remember though about VW's is 1) there light as 2) due to the limited amout of rubber out back they are unable to produce the traction of other cars. Therefore the gearbox does not have to put up with the abuse that say a WRX could dish out (read: fat car with lots of traction) so the box should be fine. I've been in suby powerd bugs with 150+hp going throught stock twin sideplate box's that seem to cope just fine. I guess another benifit is that teh EJ20T really lacks the low down punch of other engines, only comming on song at 3000rpm so that too should help with box life.
Buggy Boyz ·
The guys name is Scott
Baja Wes ·
actually I thought the 6 rib is the strongest. 5 rib was around 74/75.
Having said that there are heaps of V8 kombi's with stock gearboxes. The V8's put out a lot more torque than the EJ20 or KLZE, and the kombi is heavier so has more traction (especially with a V8 in the back). So basically a V8 kombi will give a gearbox more crap than a beetle/baja ever will.
I think if you drive sensibly a kombi box will be fine. But it will be hard to drive sensibly with 200HP under my foot.
The V6 has a much wider torque band than the EJ20T, so I think that will make it easier on the box. To get a good quarter mile time with the EJ20T you need to launch in it's peak torque band ~ 4500rpm. Bad for your gearbox.
The V6 on the other hand has an insane wide torque band which allows you to launch at lower rpm ~ 2000rpm and still get your faster 1/4 mile time. The V6 will allow the clutch the be fully released before the power is unleashed. If you do the same with the EJ20T you will have to wait for the power to come along.
555bug ·
Hmmm subaru power 🙂 that baja is good enough to eat!! loads of fun but a bit to heavy for me. Wes yup you are right I have a six rib but obviously can't count that well 🙁 On a tangent I will post some pictures later in the week of various conversions.
Stephen
reub ·
I guess I'm luck ending up with a G50 porsche gearbox, good for 450+ HP.
kombi_kid ·
hey
so what did the half cut cost u and did it include everything you needed for your conversion motor wise eg radiator, computers, wiring etc?
cheers
rhys
bugboymatt ·
good question kombi_kid.
I would also be interested to find out a rough price to get some parts or a half cut to do this conversion !!
Might even rebuild my oval on a irs pan with this kinda lump !!!
555bug ·
ok a half cut will set you back anywhere from $1800 to $3500 depending on who you talk to. If your considering this do youre research as Subarus are pritty picky when it comes to wiring. Anyway as promised some pretty pictures of people who have done this all before.
First off an ea81 in a super:
555bug ·
an ea82 non turbo
555bug ·
EJ22 in a ghia
555bug ·
EJ20 in a early bug
555bug ·
EJ22 or 25 either way single overhead cam...real nice early bug 🙂 yummy
555bug ·
reub-revheads car (i think) its a big engine 🙁
555bug ·
Danzin (friend of Brads) tuff EJ20 powered kombi 🙂
555bug ·
Richards (ricola.co.uk) EJ20T powered roadster.
555bug ·
EJ 20 22 or 25 powered type 3 wagon.
555bug ·
ok and the last one for now (It a bit tedious...guess I could have put up a web page but its Brads bandwidth hehe) a EJ25 powered manx...don't know the guy..Brad knows him...NSW somewhere.
555bug ·
hey is there a way to add an image if you edit your message? and if no then why no??
Grey 57 ·
It's amazing to me the amount of work you guys put into these conversions, great stuff. I can handle pulling something apart an putting it back together again, but building from scratch I just wouldn't know where to start.
Whats the weight difference between the T1 VW motor and the twin (4?) cam subie.
The more i think about it the more certian i am about putting a subaru motor in my rebuild oval !!!
Just need to get me back to Oz to get on with it.
Hutcho ·
555bug,
Could you tell me where you got the pic of the Type 3 conversion? Looks very interesting. Thanks.
Hutcho.
kombi_kid ·
hey
is there any sites that offer conversion tips etc??? for bug and bus? it is very interesting and VERY tempting!
if only i had the money!
cheers
rhys
Bizarre ·
Rhys
go to shoptalkforums.com and then go to "conversion perversions"
Lots of people into it there
kombi_kid ·
hey
ok thanks
cheers
rhys
Che Castro ·
i think brad did a comparo on engines which also listed weights
Man...i want a schooner for everyone that has called you Steve...no ...John...or was it Brad
Che Castro ·
whoops... i meant to type wes!!!! i even looked up wes in the forum search to find ur page! honest! 🙂
Bizarre ·
heh heh heh - sure!
Quickbug ·
I talked to my mechanic about costs for an EJ20T conversion into my 74 Super...
It aint gonna happen...
Minimum $8grand PLUS engine and loom...
DAMNIT!!
I WANT ONE SO MUCH!! 🙁🙁🙁🙁🙁
kombi_kid ·
well thatsd a load of crap is it gonna be gold plated? na seriously it wouldnt be that much! it would probably mnore like be 3-4 grand including motor the cheapest way is to do it like wes has with the half cut!
and DIY its much cheaper!
cheers
rhys
Quickbug ·
I cant DIY coz i dont know wtf i am doing lol...
I might have to ring a few other places to see what they say pricewise...
Coz for 4K im gettin it! 🙂
555bug ·
As far as actually getting the engine in goes..well 4K should more than cover it :2K engine, 1K adapter/flywheel & clutch + a grand for the fuel system..cooling system..eletrics and trans and engine mounts. However that said if you are unable to do most of the work yourself this could pretty easily double...triple. The thing to do is to start learning, tackel one system at a time. Do some research and take your time. There a number of exceptionally talented people on this forum who just happen to be nice guys to boot, there advice is always free and is an excellent place to start. Also a few of the shops around Brisbane have some really nice owners who are happy to let you wander through there workshop chatting about your ideas.
Doug Sweetman ·
Just to put a bit of a baseline on it..... I paid about $6k total to have an EJ20T put in my 1991 Subaru liberty wagon. No custom work at all, all bog stock, and the half cut cost about $2.5k.
DIY is the way to go IF - you have the skills, time and alternative transport.
That said, go for it - the EJ20T is a joy fun motor even bog stock 🙂
Hutcho ·
Quickbug,
Why dont you look at getting one of the older Subaru motors, like an ea82t or an ea81t. Theyre much cheaper and not as complicated as the EJ motor.
Hutcho.
speedster356 ·
The EA82T is a great engine and has good performance. I was going to go EJ20T on the Spyder but am quite happy with the 82T. Probably a bit kinder on the VW gearbox as well in you application!
555bug ·
I totally agree with speedster on this. The EA82T can make a bug really fly, two friends have done this conversion and it really does make a lot more sence than the EJ from a size/ease of fittment perspective. Little cutting is required and a signge side plate box is more than capable of holding up the the abuse. The only reason that I'm going EJ over this more sensible engine is A) I have not come across and EA82T in top nick 2) I want more power..so by the time I rebuild the EA with forged pistons and a bit of a port job and a hi flow turbo I will have spent more than it would cost me to just put an EJ20T in ther in the first place.
[Edited on 19-11-2002 by 555bug]
Quickbug ·
Wow never heard of the EA82t....
Will have to look into it a bit more...
What car did this engine come from?!?
Is there much potential to work this engine??
Would it need to be rebuilt before fitting it up? ie how old is this engine?
I sooooooooo want a turbo bug, i love the PPPPPPPPPSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
lol
Another thing - can anyone clear up and intercooler question?!?
Is mounting an intercooler in the front of a bug and running piped to the engine a problem? Seems like a long path for the air to travel is all...
speedster356 ·
I think the EA82T came out in the Subaru Vortex.....one ugly sonofa....
As for the PPPPSSSSSHHHHHHH...it really does get to you after a while. I'm trying to get less PPPSSSSHHHHH on the Spyder!!!!
[Edited on 19-11-2002 by speedster356]
[Edited on 19-11-2002 by speedster356]
555bug ·
yup as speedster mantioned the ea82t came from the vortex..on a tangent the first 4wheel drive turbo that I can think of with a CD less then .30 it also came in a few other subs in a few different guises ranging from a touch over 100hp upto 130hp. From my reading I believe that the very last model of the engine got 4 valves per cylinder but I can't be certain. In regards to you question about intercooler piping..yup you guessed it, that would be way to long..the responsivness of the engine would be crap..you really want to keep the piping from the turbo to the inlet as short as possiable to increase the boost responsivness. Lastly yup have to agree again with speedster, the BOV is cool for a while but get pretty anoying, just vent it back into the intake. For added fun build a screamer pipe...get an external wastegate that purges directly out the rear of the car..loud as hell + fireballs to scare children...its also a great way to meet your neighbours..lol although I guess you could put a PP 13b in it :bounce
kombi_kid ·
these EA82T motors sound like fun what is the boost out of a factory turbo on them? do they still have the LOW sump?
cheers
rhys
Quickbug ·
Bah im 22 - it'll be a long time before i get sick of PPPPPPPPPSSSSSSSSHHHH!!!
lol...
Gotta admit i love the sound of an external wastegate....
My car already shoots fireballs - its always a big attraction when cruising - everyone pesters the crap outta me till i give it a bootfull and back off to send flames everywhere....
I'm really interested in this engine - sounds like it could be a viable alternative...
*fingers crossed*😀
twobus ·
Has anyone done the ALFA 33 flat four engine conversion?
Cheers😉
speedster356 ·
I've seen a few of these conversions in the UK. check out http://www.ricola.co.uk , his Speedster had an Alfa conversion prior to the EJ20T.
I'll measure my engine this evening and post the results.
[Edited on 20-11-2002 by speedster356]
speedster356 ·
I asked this question just the other day on shoptalk and a reply said 5-7 boost but with a nicely built enging you could go to 15?
555bug ·
ok its picture time again..first off a ea82t in a mid 60's bug without the rear apron..you can clearly see what an easy fit it is. No cutting required 🙂
555bug ·
ok and for the more inquisitive of you...a few power graphs so you can compare the various characteristics of the differens subaru engines.....on a tangent I'm currently at work ona real page that will have all this info and lots more all in the one place. I've spent years searching the web for this info so it should prove to be useful to a few people...cheers to Brad for the web space 🙂 see it is who you know:vader
Pat ·
A few years ago I went for a ride in a '85 Subaru RX turbo, which has this motor. It went pretty well, i expect a bug with this motor would fly.
Hutcho ·
Heres a pic of an EA 81t that will be going into the Notchy.
Here are some dimensions as well.
Ea 81T: Centre crank to bottom sump=240. Centre crank to end rocker=320. Centre crank to top motor=340. As you can see in the pic, the alternator goes past the rocker by 70mm.
The VW motor: Centre crank to sump bottom=190. Centre crank to end rocker=380mm. Centre crank to top of motor (Type 1 oil cooler) =400mm.
So, the Subaru motor is actually smaller than the VW motor, except for the sump on the ea which hangs 50mm lower.
Regarding the intercooleer question, I think a water to air setup would be perfect for a VW. These setups are better for street due to the low fluctuations in intake air and you dont need a crap load of fresh air blowing through the front of the car to get the best performace from it.
I just picked up a whole RS liberty intecooler setup for $200!! These guys all want the look of a big 'cooler out at the front of thier cars, so thier giving thier original setups away!!
Hutcho ·
The EA 81T's came out of the mid 80's RX turbo's, which were based on the Leone's. They were also fitted to cars in the U.S calleb the "BRAT". Over here those cars were called "BRUMBY". It is a known fact over in the U.S. That the RX Turbo's that were raced, used to spin all four wheels!! And that was just with external mods! For some VW content, I believe Subaru based thier original philosophies on auto manufacturing as the same as VW/Porsche. For a bit of fun, do a search for the Subaru 360 and you'll see what I mean.
Hutcho
Quickbug ·
Wow u guys are a wealth of knowledge..
I'm drooling at the thought of one of these engines...
I'm gonna talk to a shop down the road that sells the ea82t's amoungst other things and see what prices im looking at.
Do you guys recommend running the original wiring loom? I intend to upgrade later but cost is a factor atm...
Have to see how much my mechanic reckons the conversion will cost...
Hutcho ·
Quickbug,
Wiring can be a s@#t. When you get the motor, also ask if it comes with the wiring, ecu and knock control sensor. If you can get these, it'll make your life a hell of a lot easier as an aftermarket one will cost the same as the motor itself or more. Where abouts in Sydney do you live (I live in Ingleburn)? If your serious, you could come on over and we could yak and you could see for yourself what is involved. I dont know what kind of relationship you have with your mechanic, but it would probably pay for you to ring around. Ask other people that have done it which mechanics they got cooperation from. This has already been mentioned, but you should be able to get out of it for about $2500 to $6000 depending how much you do yourself and who does it. The guys on this forum ARE a wealth of info, so use them, they love it!
Steve
kombi_kid ·
what do these motors cost?
cheers
rhys
Quickbug ·
Hutcho - i'm in Liverpool so you arent far from me - i'd like to come around and see whats what...
I have always used the same mechanic for my vw's and had heaps done with him but i defiantely intend to call around since i just spoke to him about cost for fitting the ea82t and he says it will be about the same as fitting an ej20t?!?!?!?!🙁:o
I was thinking along the lines of picking up the engine with wiring loom etc so thanks for the backup there...
I cant do much myself - im not good with mechanicals so i'd have to pay drive in drive away costs....
Hutcho ·
Quickbug, You have U2U.
Steve.
Hutcho ·
Kombi Kid,
Depending which motor you purchase...
I was very recently quoted $1200 for an EA 82T, but to be honest, I dont know if it came with wiring and ecu's. Id just ring every Jap import place that you have in your phone directory.
Hutcho
555bug ·
quickbug and anyone else thinking about an ea82t..just realise that it you get the engine from a half cut (unlikly..but a good find if you do) that the ecu in the vortex is actually in the rear, behaind the seat so chances are it will be gone. If you come across a crashed one you should be right, although a cheap microtech digi 2 will run this setup easily ... they are pretty cheap second hand from rotary enthusiasts.
speedster356 ·
What would be the advantages of fitting an intercooler (water/air) to the EA82T if any? It would have to be H2O/Air due to the fact that I have limited fresh air in the mid mounted Spyder. Should I do a compressor temp in and temp out reading first? What do you think a good temperature differental should be?
kombi_kid ·
hey
i live in a country area so no jap places around here🙁 will have to get on the phone and ring around when i get a bit of spare time.
if people get prices can they post them here? and where do people place the intercoolers in a kombi what conditions do intercoolers need?
cheers
rhys
reub ·
Have a look at http://photos.yahoo.com/volxrod. Look at the Subaru buggy page. This was a mates buggy that ran an ea82T. He left it at my place for a few months which gave me a chance to have a good look at it. It was offered to me for $5500 but I wanted a WRX powered bug. He ended up selling it for $6000 which is pretty good. I think it ran a 14.8 at the last street drags.
The engine cost him $600.00, he picked up a microtech digi series 2 (which I believe are fuel only ecu's) for $500.00 and sent it to microtech for a subaru fuel map. He removed the distributor and replaced it with a standard electronic ignition distributor (not sure of the engine it came from). He also replaced the inlet with a ram pod. A Saab bosch blow off valve was installed for about $50.00. I think he made his own adapter plate and bought a flywheel and clutch from sherman in QLD. It ran a standard swing axle rear end with ea falcon rear brakes and twin pin vw front brakes. With a bit of patience he made up his own wiring loom for the car.
Even though it's only run a high 14 at the drags it is easly capable of blowing away most cars at the lights and is a great budget alternative to an EJ20. I'd suggest this conversion use a standard engine as I can't see the point spending mega dollars trying to enhance one.
Just my 2 cents worth.
555bug ·
hey reub did you end up getting Lawries oval? if so have you taken a camera to it yet?...I need photos!! :bounce
hey speedster..the benifit of the water cooled intercooler on a vw based car is that (obviously) water can absorbe loads of heat energy in relation to its volume..you can pass this water through a small motorbike intercooler although it actually make little to no difference 😉 as with my application getting sufficent air flow through a bar and fin cooler is often not possiable (although I think I have a way around this)..anyway back to the topic..Ummm yup the only drawback of a h2o cooler is that after a few hard runs the cooling system is heat soaked so its actually warming the inlet air..anyway you really have to look at your application..if your racing then you need constant cooling as you'll spend a great deal of time at WOT, if drag racing then you're only looking at >15sec at constant WOT or on the road with occasional spurts. Anyway the thing is the cooler the charge the more power you can make + any intercooler is better than none..the liberty cooler can handle 150kw so that should be good for you..or you could get a series5 RX7 cooler and add a water spray kit that activates at WOT. Anyway heaps of options check out http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/turbo/intercooler.html
for a detailed explination of all things ..that cool.
reub ·
Stephen check u2u
kombi_kid ·
does anyone have the specs o9f these engines (EA82T)????? just want to have a look
cheers
rhys
555bug ·
try this site for a basic rundown of the various engines avaliable..also hact the url to get to the forum for additional info 🙂
well as this extreamly popular thread comes to an end I'd just like to say I'm really impressed with the interest levels out there for this conversion. Anyway as I mentioned early on in the piece I'll have a nice page up by the new year with all the info I have collected over the years. Now if anyone has any more to add..pictures..info whatever I would really appreciate if you would email me with the details :bounce also once again cheers to Brad for hosting my site...if you're looking for some web space drop him a line 🙂 Cheers Stephen
amazer ·
555bug wrote:hey speedster..the benifit of the water cooled intercooler on a vw based car is that (obviously) water can absorbe loads of heat energy in relation to its volume..you can pass this water through a small motorbike intercooler although it actually make little to no difference 😉 as with my application getting sufficent air flow through a bar and fin cooler is often not possiable (although I think I have a way around this)..anyway back to the topic..Ummm yup the only drawback of a h2o cooler is that after a few hard runs the cooling system is heat soaked so its actually warming the inlet air..anyway you really have to look at your application..if your racing then you need constant cooling as you'll spend a great deal of time at WOT, if drag racing then you're only looking at >15sec at constant WOT or on the road with occasional spurts.
I dont know what you are saying here. How does the subaru cooling system work. Do they have a seperate water system (pump and radiator) for the intercooler or is it the same engine cooling water used in the intercooler? And the way I read it you dont cool the intercooler water at all?
I have used both water-to-air and air-to-air in both road cars and race cars. In the race car the water was crap. USELESS! Cos I'd have a "run" and every thing would be fine. Switch the engine off while waiting for the next run, and the whole time the water is soaking up heat. Then when the time come for the next run there wasnt enough time for it to cool down, and of course sitting in the pits there is no airflow. Spent money boxing in my air to air then cut it off again.
On a road car things are different. Air to air was good enough, but water is better. You're never on the gas long enough for things to get too hot, and there's a constant airflow past the radiator keeping things cool. You must have this water circulating through a radiator though. My kombi was overheating when my pump wasnt working. The hot intake air was killing it. I guess this wouldnt be as big problem with a subaru engine though.
If you have enough room for a radiator to cool engine water you should have enough room for something to cool intercooler water. mount them in the same place. Im using a corolla radiator (from wreckers) mounted flat to the underside of my kombi. Its got no scoops or fans forcing air through it yet it is cold all the time. Never even gets slightly warm. So I'm guessing that something from a diahatsu or 121 which are half the size and only about 1/2" thick would be up to the task.
I'm still yelling "BOOOOO" at using non VW engines though. Even if I have compromised my own principles by adding a water pump. :jesus <- jesus knows I'm still air cooled at heart.
kombi_kid ·
hey
whats the ristrictions to what lenght an intercooler can be mounted to from the motor???????
cheers
rhys
amazer ·
there's no restrictions, there is no limit that things stop working. You can use it as far away as you like. But the further away it gets the more system volume you have, meaning you get more lag. As close as physically possible is the right place for it.