type iv for beetles

hi guys still searching for that best reliable bang for your buck motor and wonmdering what people out there think of type iv motors for beetles. looking for really strong reliable motor options. all opinions welcome there is a huge amount of decisions to be made when looking for that motor

Pick up a 2lt Type4 from a wreck and fit a Sharpbuilt upright conversion and you will have a beast.Plenty of low end torque and with taller gearing a good cruiser.

I am currently building my project to take a mild type IV engine (with sharpbuilt upright kit).

I am looking forward to experiencing the difference between type I/type IV but can't report on anything yet apart from the cost.

Definitely more expensive to build (whether the longevity and reliability will counter this initial expense is unknown at this stage).

Factor in at least $600 for the upright kit, don't expect to get bearings of the size you need in a big hurry, and bear in mind that most parts have been more expensive in general than type I (in my experience - obviously there are exceptions).

I don't regret going type IV (even though I am yet to drive it) - just wanted something different. Look at www.shoptalkforums.com in the type4rum for heaps of info (look through all the old posts) - and a site from tuna (can't remember the address but should have links somewhere from shoptalkforums).

Hope that helps a bit.
Alan

thanks guys found a good us site at the samba.com massive.com. it has a real cool fan systems dtm and do whole engine kits new (big big bucks 150hp). not mech minded enough as yet to do myself (learning on rebuild of girlfriends 1600) so need to find reputable melb based builder if im going to go type iv any ideas

I have gone the Type4 way as well and mine is a mild 2.7lt which I bought as a complete and running engine. I stripped it and had it o'hauled in Adelaide and didn't think that it cost much more than a Type1 and had no trouble with getting parts. I had to get another case because it had been butchered to have a 5th stud fitted and the new one didn't need machining or a crank grind,but had the heads cleaned up and all parts crack tested and balanced which was the major cost. Had to have the case machined for the 103 barrels which was the same as opening up a type 1 case. If you could pick up a running 2lt Type 4 and it didn't need a crank grind or case machining,you should be able to o'haul it with heads done up cheaper than building up a 1915 type 1 with the big bore kit and some decent heads.Both would need a good set of dual carbs.And of course an upright cooling kit for the Type 4,but on the above link to the Shoptalk Forum there is a link to a Cali conversion you can do yourself for a small cost. I haven't driven mine as yet either,but have had it running and man does it roar.

Hi all,

My Brother has been running an standard 1800cc type IV engine with an upright fan conversion in his daily driven '67 for around 2 years now. Has given him very little trouble since the conversion was done. Masses of power althought it doesn't rev out as far as the 1641cc type I that it replaced, it doesn't need to. Its capable of well over 140km/h fitted to a 1200 g/box - on its own or towing a fully loaded box trailer (don't try this at home folks!!:o ). He has great fun blowing away early Commodores and the like when leaving the line - you should see their faces (particularly when the realise that they have just been beaten by a bug towing a trailer with 12 sleepers in it!!).

The engine is fitted with twin Type IV carbs (yeah, I know that they say that it can't be done on an upright converted type IV - but it depends on how hard you try!) and and external oil cooler with a thermo switch controlled fan. It is also fitted with modified type IV heater boxes (yep, they say that this could not be done too...), which he has been too busy to connect to the car, but will not be hard to do so!

If you are interested I will take some pics for you and post them here or on my web site - just let me know.

Just as a matter of interest, he (my brother) has just finished a Porsche fan cooled type IV conversion on his '65 Baja - it is still being run in at the moment, but is around a 2.1l with some internal 'go fast' parts. It has just done a week on Frazer Island, plodding around in the sand, and he reports that about the only problem that he has is the T IV carbs (twin carbed again!) tend to flood easily when off road. He also mentioned that it was running hotter that he would have liked, however he feels that it is probably due to the fact that the engine is still very tight. (can take pics of this one too... just let me know..)

R

bigbruvabob,

I have been for a ride in a 2.8L with a wild cam, twin webers, and 4 into1 headers and man, has this thing got some torque!!! It's absolutely neck-snapping!!
But it's timid enough for your grandma to drive. Best of both worlds if you ask me.

AS Ratty 63 said, his bro had a 1800 and still managed to whip butt with all that weight and is still reliable.
You can't get better than that.
Go the T4 I say 😀

Yes please-all the pics you can-what sort of conversion did he use?The Sharpbuilt one keeps the Type4 cooler in the same place as the Type1,at the back of the fan housing.

Ratty 63-Just had another read of your post.Did your brother use the original Type4 under cylinder tinware.I had used it originally when I put mine together and was surprised at the lack of air coming from under the cylinders when revving it up,and it smelt hot(was running on the stand)I came across a thread on the Shoptalk Forum about this and found they use modified Type1 defectors.I have since changed mine and now there is a huge amount of air coming from under the cylinders when revving it.Won't know true temps until fitted into car.

I run a mild 1776 motor in my L bug and a mate runs a 1800 in his L bug as well.

The 1776(w100 cam, extractors, twin 40mm dells) is faster than the kombi motor. The kombi motor has a bit more torque.

just have to compare the costs. Mine was about $3500-4000 compare that to a rebuilt kombi motor and conversion costs?

Dont forget if your rebuilding a Type 4 engine the big end and Main bearings are getting impossible to find in oversizes.

so before you get any machining done purchase your bearings first.

nbturbo wrote:Had to have the case machined for the 103 barrels which was the same as opening up a type 1 case.

The seating "lip" on a type 4 case for the barrels is about 6mm wide for a 2lt, what would this be if you bore it for larger barrels ?

Measured my old case- Sealing seat varies between 3 and 4mm

thanks

Hi all,

Just a quick one to let you know that I have just taken some pictures of my bro's engines. I will post them early tomorrow morning as I have to go to work now (damn night shift:bounce ) and I don't have the time to compress them to the required level.

He mentioned all sorts of information that he felt that you might find helpful. I will write all that up when I post the pics.

Just a note on the type 1 vs type 4 cooling tin, he felt that the type 4 stuff (which he is using) is working OK and was a little doubtful as to how well the type 1 stuff would work - have you got a link to that discussion on the Shoptalk forum? I will go and have a look and show the discussion to my bro (see what he thinks). He suggested that you check that the fan you are using (er.. I assume that this is an upright conversion..?) is the widest 1600 fan you can find - he tells me that many of the 1600s that he works on don't even have the correct fan fitted! He also mentioned that you should check to ensure that the fan is spaced as far back in the fan housing as possible as the cooling air for the oil cooler is taken from the back of the fan housing.

I have heaps of other info - I'll be back early tomorrow - must go now ...*click*

R

PS: he had just got back from the garden supplies, towing a trailer with 12 sleepers (he is terracing his yard - lives on the side of a cliff!) and with 120kg of cement on the back seat. Tells me he is still having trouble with traction in 1st gear!!!:o 😀
*click again!*

It was a couple of months back-will have a search-in fact there has been a lot of posts on subject for the last 12 months.The bloke from Aircooled Technology(J.Raby) has done a lot of cooling system testing and he discovered this while testing under load on his engine dyno.He hasn't got a lot of time for my system-reckons they over cool.I have set my C.R. at 9.5 to 1 so it should make enough heat to need this.

hi guys ,currently in talks with a couple of builders to do my type 4 for me, am getting it pro built as i dont have the skills at the moment (learning on a 1641 for my girlfriends roadster ,steep curve),but am definately going type 4 2.2 ltr with with all new bits except case, crank and rods, going to breathe through 40 drla's and worked eliminator heads, mild cam,hydraulic lifters ( i think thats what the guy said otherwise you have trouble with adjusting the tappets, does that sound right) with a porche style fan and probably a dtm shroud through jack raby although volkspower do their own shrouds which apparently are very good but i haven't seen them yet. the porche fan and alternator are a major expense about a grand. I am still waitng on final prices from three different buiders but i know its gunna cost me, but hey it wont be as much as a new rice burnr. estimates put it at around the 130 hp mark, at least thats what i said i would like and they all said no worries. Once i decide on who builds it i will post my parts list and the price so people can see whats what. nb onyours you run the porche style fan yeah, did you have to modify the deck lid at all to fit in. mines going in a 64 on a76 irs pan and one of the people i spke to said it wouldn't fit without a propped lid, i have one anyway so it doesnt matter that much i guess. Any way thanks for all the advice i sleep better now that i know my hard earned will get me something tonka tough. :sandrine

A 2.2 will cool well enough with an upright Type1 system.Sharpbuilt upright kits can use the Type4 oil cooler so it is a simple conversion.You can also use modified Kombi heater boxes so can have heaters as well.From my research-stay away from hydro lifters and stay solid and valve adjustment is no more difficult than a Type 1. If you go with the Porsche cooling-I have used a Sharpbuilt kit which needs the breather tower machined down which will allow you to keep the engine cover closed.I have used a 73 engine cover to give more room for my exhaust system and to get more air into the engine bay.I have made a new exhaust to have tailpipes coming from original openings

Another

Another go

bigbruvabob wrote:all new bits except case, crank and rods, going to breathe through 40 drla's and worked eliminator heads, mild tough. :sandrine

Good luck in trying to get 130hp with 40 drla's and a mild cam :thumb someones giving you a bum steer.


Make sure who ever builds it will give you a full warranty, and talk to customers that have had their motors, otherwise you will not sleep because you have blown your motor!

Tonka Tuff..................... only if its built properly !

bigbruvabob wrote:hi guys ,currently in talks with a couple of builders to do my type 4 for me, am getting it pro built as i dont have the skills at the moment (learning on a 1641 for my girlfriends roadster ,steep curve),but am definately going type 4 2.2 ltr with with all new bits except case, crank and rods, going to breathe through 40 drla's and worked eliminator heads, mild cam,hydraulic lifters ( i think thats what the guy said otherwise you have trouble with adjusting the tappets, does that sound right) with a porche style fan and probably a dtm shroud through jack raby although volkspower do their own shrouds which apparently are very good but i haven't seen them yet. the porche fan and alternator are a major expense about a grand. I am still waitng on final prices from three different buiders but i know its gunna cost me, but hey it wont be as much as a new rice burnr. estimates put it at around the 130 hp mark, at least thats what i said i would like and they all said no worries. Once i decide on who builds it i will post my parts list and the price so people can see whats what. nb onyours you run the porche style fan yeah, did you have to modify the deck lid at all to fit in. mines going in a 64 on a76 irs pan and one of the people i spke to said it wouldn't fit without a propped lid, i have one anyway so it doesnt matter that much i guess. Any way thanks for all the advice i sleep better now that i know my hard earned will get me something tonka tough. :sandrine

Hiya dude,im thinking yule need type4 heads as well,competition eliminaters are type 1,and a 2270 type 4 with 40dells and a mild cam and hydraulic lifters wont get ya 130hp unless there American ponies,hang at STF type 4 forum for a cupla weeks,as Jake says ITS ALL IN THE COMBO😉

Hi all,

Sorry its taken so long but I had a think about all the info that I had to post here and decided that it would be easier (and better for the forums bandwidth) if I put it all on a web page and hosted it on my own site (bigger pics - can link to it from everywhere, etc.).

Go to: http://rosscosvwprojects.50megs.com/type%20IV%20engines.htm (sorry about the pop-ups - free hosting (has to be some disadvantages!)

I had a quick read through the post that have been made since I was last on, the only thing that stood out was the comment about the hydralic tappets...why steer clear of these? Self adjusting, quiet - what more could you want? My Bros Baja engine has hydralics in it (He is a VW mechanic here on the Gold Coast).

I am going back to read the other posts now....

R

nbturbo,

Your engine looks great - nice and shiny (not like my Bros 'tractor' engine!). I notice you are using twin carbs - would be interested to see if you engine enjoys the same benifits as my Bros engine from using a single air intake system.

My Brother said that all type IV engines run (and smell) hot when they are being run-in - the standard ones too, not just the converted ones. Can't wait to see all these vehicle finished... keep us up to date with the progress ppl...

R

Don't understand-single air intake system.?I am only using twin carbs until I can get my Fuel Injection up and running

nb turbo,

Sorry, probably should have been a little clearer with my post - it is all explained on my web page but I will explain myself here again...

My Brother has found that using a single air filter with both carbs plumbed into it makes the engine run smoother and it even seems to generate a little more power - it also helps to quiten the induction noise (the bigger filter element would do most of the 'quietening'). He's not sure why the engine runs better with this setup (he guesses it is something to do with induction pulses, but...), however he does say that the difference is noticable.

I notice you are planning on going FI, I don't want to take over this thread but I am doing something similar, have you seen this thread: http://www.aussieveedubbers.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=15209 ? Would love your input or just a descrition of your system...

R

"Use a single air filter rather than two sepearte ones. The engines run better, give more grunt and are generally quieter through a single filter. Dave used a modified L bug plastic filter box (and filter) to achieve this and it works well. - Just a note: in these pics the car is fitted with dual pancake filters because the filter system that was originally built for this car is currently on his Baja until the fuel injection comes along, so to stop the animals from making a home in the carbs whilst the filter is missing he has just put the pancakes back on. Also note that this is why the coil is mounted in this position."

I have seen this before on the 2.8L Type 4 beast where the twin 48's were fed through a single air filter.
Really quietened it down. Relative though - still roared like a lion!

yep still looking and learning (lots to know) but not rushing in. Craig dont worry will definately talk to stan before finalising anything just waiting for build details so that i know what im talking about a bit more.

Have been watching that thread-a good read.I know nothing about the electronic side FI,am learning quickly though.I have a friend here who is a genius with the stuff.He uses Delco on everything and can change things on the move with his laptop.He has done a lot of VW's over the years(b4 I got to know him) and seems to get a buzz out of using Delco.He has just fitted a 3lt V6 turbo Nissan with auto into an older Nissan car and changed every thing over to Delco and even fitted a crank angle sensor from a Commodore V6 and used the coil packs.He is now doing a 3lt Nissan straight 6,fitting a 2lt 4valve head with spacer and it is also Delco with CAS and coil packs.He reckons my system is a piece of cake.I am the hold up-trying to perfect a manifold with single throttle body and mounting the injectors with no body alterations.

A mech mate of mine who owns a turbo rx3, (10 sec, 1/4 mile), said there is a set up going around that uses something like a weber body to house individual injectors so your injectors would set up physically the same as if you had carbs on. I think he said that it used rochester injectors i assume it is electronic and programmable. i will try to find out more. He is not really into dubs but does a lot of work on wild rotaries and thought these might work

Yes-Injection Perfection(I think its spelt right) have throttle bodies that will bolt on in place of a Weber and have injector mounts cast into them.They also have all the hardware-linkages,arms,TPS switches and fuel rails.This gear is top quality and the price reflects its quality

www.injectionperfection.com/ is the page they have a good description some graphs and a full set up using microtech ecu for 2550-00 . the price list is split up so u can see what costs what, considering new webers cost about 1800 this is pretty good i would think.

Hi all,

Just a quick one - got an Email from Mike Sharp yesterday; tells me that the fan fitted to Daves baja is the wrong one! This is likely to be the cause of the higher than expected running temps Dave is experiencing.

Now the hunt is on for a correct fan - if you can help, please let me know.

Thanks

R

Sorry

what is the one you are after????

The picture shows and 11 blade fan.
Are there 2 sorts???

I gather you are definitely not after the 5 blader??

There is also a 12 blade,not for more airflow but designed to lower the noise level these things develop.If you are using an 11 blade there is no way a standard Type 4 will o'heat from lack of air flow.There is something else wrong.I think I mentioned on here about the under cylinder cooling tin.The original ones(similar the Type 3 engines)were designed for the different type of cooling system-the air enters into the cylinder area from the front and across the top of the barrels unlike the upright system where it thrust directly down onto the wide flattish area of the barrels and heads.VW wouldn't have changed this tin ware without some research.

Hi all,

Just to clarify the issue we are having here with the fan on my Bros Baja, the fan that is fitted at the moment is 225mm in diameter, the fan that should be fitted is 245mm in diameter. This is leading to (from what we understand) much of the cooling air not making it down to the engine, but escaping through the gap between the fan and the ring. The ring that is fitted is to suit a 245mm fan, so why this fan was fitted to the ring in the first place we don't know. The fan was purchased at a swap so no warranty unfortunatly, but we have to get it sorted ASAP, especially with the high daytime temps we are suffering from at the moment here in Qld.

To check your fan, the gap between the fan an the ring should only be very small (when the bearings go in the altinator the fan will actually rub on the ring - thats how close it needs to be!) If you look at the pics of my Bros fan, you can stick yor finger between the fan and the ring (with the engine off - obvoiusly!:P ).

R

Just had another look at the pic-you are correct-that will cause some issues with o'heating.

i kno this thread is old old old... but i would like some more light on this type 4 conversion? any one kno a rough cost? materials needed etc?

mine costed about 2 grand not counting the motor which i have rebuilt at about 4g and mines a stock 2L. you need to be fairly mechanically minded and its not just a whack it in and drive there are other things needed ie brake and gearbox upgrades and thats not to mention the engineers certificates ether.
if your serious about it richard at v force is the best one in sydney to talk to about it.

im jsut exploring ideas!! i dont kno what im going to do with my car yet! but i would love to pick the perfect option! and to tell u the truth... i really dont kno what that is!!!


my options so far....

Supercharged 1776 type 1*bit of fiddling tho*
2L type 1
2L type 4*simple casuse its stock*
2L type 4 supercharged*wishes*
EJ20(but dont want water cooling)
EJ22(but dont want water cooling)

i really had my heart set on 1776 superchaged casue its cheap and fair reliable, but this type 4 conversion has got me VERY interested... the stock 2L would have about 90hp? and alot more tourqe? mebbe this is all i really need? for now anyways!?

so you are saying? $4k all up with stock 2L type 4?

ok hows this then for some info. better fuel economy than a stock 1600, cruise all day at 110km/h without worrying about hills. longer between rebuilds if treated and built right. stronger and has less modification from stock for bigger capacity ie 2.5L from a stock 2L which is the same percentage as taking a 1600 to 1916. has a broader torque curve.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm but i want some proper power figures.... hp and Nm etc. i kno that a stock 1600dp with a supercharger @ 8 psi runs 75-80hp and its not that expencive, but in the long run, it will be..

i kno that a 2L type 1 is VERY expencive but can get hp figures from 80-150hp?

i kno subi engines are powerhouses!! over 120hp easy, but are expencive!!! and water cooled!! grrrrrrrrr

gah.... decisions!!!

main thing .... must be VERY reliable! and cannot have the engine lid popped .... i just cant stand seeing my car with the lid open like that.... eeeek!

hate to burst ur bubble but stock 2L T4 was good for 68hp
unless u can do everything urself supercharging and turbo isnt cheap
been there and done both and it adds up quick let alone paying someone to do it

just cos i ran my stock1600 at 8psi doenst mean it was good for it either
6psi is sensible
80hp was at the wheels tho not the flywheel

haha only 68hp? nawww!!!

and yeah i kno supercharging isnt that cheap,

and it would be a 1600 fully rebuilt not just a stock 30 year old motor lulz...

i cant decide on what to do... but if type 4 2L only pulls 68hp i might have to rethink...


my old transporter bus was a 2L but with an auto box, it had great toruqe for what it was, but i wasnt sure of power.

edit: wow 80 atw? i thought it was FW.... wow thats a massive increase right there from stock power...

yup they were very low compression motors
plus the carbs cam and exhaust didnt help

fix all these things then ur cooking with gas

i was gonna go type4 years ago
even had an engine but in the long term it wasnt worth it

a type 1 can make the same power for alot less $$ and unless u really rack up the KMs then the extra life doesnt isnt really gonna pay off
theres alot more gofarst stuff for rype1 as well

btw the stock 1600 which wasnt real long in the tooth put down 44hp at the treads, same motor blown at 6psi was 82hp

lol now ur just teasing me with the supercharger!!! dam you joel!!!

ok so best real options here....

type 1 engine heavy modded to 2L

or

type 1 1600dp with supercharger with options for a bigger engine later?


now realisticly, how much would u say both would cost, both being reliable and both being driven every day?

this will prolly be the deciding factor here!

A simple camshaft change can increase power by 15%, the stock camshaft sucks big time. if you can an 1800 with a cam change and upright kit will make you very happy.

how much would it cost for the conversion + cam's... also how much power are we talking about here?

Joel wrote:hate to burst ur bubble but stock 2L T4 was good for 68hp
unless u can do everything urself supercharging and turbo isnt cheap
been there and done both and it adds up quick let alone paying someone to do it

just cos i ran my stock1600 at 8psi doenst mean it was good for it either
6psi is sensible
80hp was at the wheels tho not the flywheel

try 90 hp in stock form joel.
look here
http://www.tunacan.net/t4/why.htm
i wouldnt have even thought about it at 68hp as 1600 was only 50 odd.

here is more reading
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=28504
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=45759

thats US specs
according to the kombi manual i got (aus) with the 1978 wheels road test its 51kw for the 2L which is 68hp
the stock 2L had shitty little valve sizes and low compression 7.3 to be exact


also this taken from HSW and wiki

"The 20-second barrier fell in 1976, when the Volkswagen Bus borrowed yet another engine, this time the 2.0-liter flat-four from the Porsche 914 sports car. Horsepower remained 67 at 4200 rpm, but torque climbed to a relatively robust 101 pounds/feet at 3000. Even with automatic, VW buses could now run 0-60 mph in 19.9 seconds"

ok, u guys are screwing with me here!!!! can any one prove the real HP and tourqe figures of a 2.0L type 4?

also installation costs and running costs

and if u could joel, can u answer these questions with ur superchaged bug?

worst case scenario, ej20/22 but i would really really like to keep it air cooled..

EJ engine with ancilliaries but no ECU: $1000 pair of webers: $600 Conversion kit; $600 Time and effort: free Total result: $2200 and probably 140kw Type 4 cost of rebuild: $2500. new heads because both the ones on the motor are cracked: $1000 Pair of webers $600. Hope the clutch is good. End result: $4100 and 80kw.

read this from another fourm? is it really that much of a price difference?

i was offered a 2L kombi motor yesterday. not sure on whether or not to bight the bullet

joel is pretty much on the money. i wouldnt put too great an emphasis on hp figures and alike as you will seldom find consistency between calculations/dynos etc.

"i kno that a 2L type 1 is VERY expencive but can get hp figures from 80-150hp?" - i don't know why you think this is expensive given it is one of the more popular type1 engine upgrade/modifications....

bottom line - most people will start with a 1776 or 1914/15/16. why???? they are economic to build, they can be built to be reliable and performance is typically enough for most.

pm guys like craig torrens who is an avid supporter of pobjoy 191x? stuff. or mick058 for a similar story. or daimo pell (hellbugged) who has recently built himself a 1776 which i think pulled similar HP figures on a dyno up here in brisbane to most 1916's.....

coming from someone who is mid-way through a type 4 build - unless you are made of money - i highly doubt the benefit will outweigh the cost. then again - maybe ill go back on such a statement in several months/years time when im driving down to vw portland at 120km/hr to do a few 1/8miles and head home!! hehe current estimated completion date is 2010 😉

nick

wow ... well i kno mech has a 2l type 1 in his.. pulling well over +130hp... revs to 8k ... fkn screamer!!

but this cost him LOADS of money... moeny which i would never have! so given the choice im guessing that type 4 is too expencive, a type 1 mebbe 1776 or 1915 but i thought it cost about 2k to build one of them up? and casue i have a 1500SP im going to need a new engine so another 1k ontop so 3k total?

were as from what iv gatherd a ej20 conversion costs the same about 3k? so realisticly best bang for buck would be ej20 conversion?

even tho i would love to keep it air cooled.... im really short of cash, and prolly will be untill i can find a real job... so the cheapest build per HP is looking good for me right now ...


ugh... decisions!!!

you want $ and are still persistent on the hp thing! hehe figures figures figures he says. i think throwing HP figures around does nothing but get your hopes up and gives some of us a bit of semi-on..... maybe it gives you a bit of an idea also, which i guess is what you're trying to establish.

$ will depend on who does what ie: a full ej20 conversion by cvd (though in a kombi) is upward of 10k. (see here http://www.customveedub.com.au/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=26)

should you source your own parts and have a chop at install yourself i think realistically you'll still be up for 5k?....

a bone stock tired old 1600TP which is what i think you're chasing for a rebuild you'll pick up for $400-600. and should you sell your running 1500sp im sure someone will snap that up for similar money once this new engine is built.

if you want to spend 3k or thereabouts - 1916 (which we often refer to as 2L - same thing) get a quote for 94mm p&b and machining, cam, carbs and exhaust and see where you're at......

someone with alot more experience in $ and building such motors will be able to give you a considerably more accurate estimate than i.

nick

here is a rod penrose thread i pulled up - bang for buck you won't find any better. i'd call him also....

http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=70410&page=1#pid657395

hey mate do yourself a favour and ring richard at vforce and speak to him, he has done both in each of his sons' cars. i think the t4 was 170hp and 3 seconds slower than a gt3 on the track. the t1 was 140 but they can be a bit of a hand grenade at that size if not treated right. as for the t4 it cost me 2000 initially and that included engineers certificate, that was everything with me fitting it. it did cost me around the 4000 mark for a rebuild but i ditched the stock cam for a mild grind and have a custom exhaust to boot.
this engine baring a major failure should still be running well after the 1916s have worn out. its been going for 2 years so far and i wouldnt go back to the type one motor no matter what reason.
ether way if you want the engine built by someone talk to someone who has done both and doest mind helping people match their driving styles to the engine. turbo is fine as is supercharger but you will still require an engineers for it to be legal without it, your insurance company can just wipe you if you have an accident and they find that you have modified outside of the road legal status.
also they can be very hard on the bottom end if not built right.

i kno and have seen one of the sons beetles from vforce. i htink his name was alex? sky blue with whale tale and the rest. it was a 2.4l fuel injected, and i wont forget it becasue he was smashing my mates Type R...

i like the idea of supercharger becasue it doesnt require that much engine work, the engine just needs a rebuild and thats about it(from what im guessing) but alot of custom mounts etc
the idea of a 2L type 4 is also good becasue its a very rfeliable engine and will outlast a type 1 but also costs alot more...
the idea of a type 1 in 1916 is good, but i need this car to be reliable as it would be used every single day without fail...
hence the idea of ej20 came up, reliable, but not a vw, and it never will be with an ej20 in it ...
iv even looked at rotary, but really cost and rebuilds every 6 months, just not worth it.

i think this is going to be a very personal decision, but i still would love to see all the pro's n cons from owners themselves.

theres no need to diss other engine builds and what not, just talk about your own and ur own experiances with them.

i only wish i had money so i could do all of them !!!! that would be indeedly awesome 😀

one great thing i love about beetles, and vw.... is that there is endless ammounts of ideas out there! the only problem is finding the right one!!!

Cheers all for ur help btw!!!! all ur input is VERY WELCOM!!! and i love reading about peoples ideas n what not about engines etc...

keep em comming 😀

ALSO....a must is, the engine lid must not be "popped"... gota be stock.

i jsut think it doesnt flow well with the cars lines when its out like that... but we shall see!!

couple things stand out from your enquiry:-

" i only wish i had money " "im really short of cash"

most of us are in a similar boat my friend... if you're familiar with "hindsight" then build a type 1.

then maybe save up and put about $6k minimum aside for that dream motor down the track...

these threads get repetitive about now. have a look on shoptalkforums in the type4rum - can read about this stuff for yonks. you've got a heap of help from people and a variety of ideas and recommendations - now maybe do some more research and further reading, make some phone calls etc as this has been covered on numerous occassions..... there is a search function on avd, also shoptalkforums, thesamba, good old google!


nick

With dollars being tight, do the type one. I have built many type 1's and type IV's, for kombi's and beetles.
I believe Alex Holzl is now going back to type 1...go figure.

There are soooo many variables, but no horsepower will last long if you cant afford to do it RIGHT, either way.

Type 1 should even be built on a new case....kiss 1k tat ta.... if you get my drift.

Some of these performance figures are from people that have spent arms and legs, and others that have been building for a very long time, and therefore can slowly hone the combo to make some #'s, but to jump in and do it the first time round...(with 2k).....well, just say.....good luck.

Build what you can afford, say a basic 1915 then as you get more performance goodies even bolted to your engine, you will eventually be able to 'go ballistic'.

2 cent from the Hillbilly!

the reason i was asking all these questions was for peoples personal advice and experiences. i have been resurching and what not, but i wanted a first person view of what people have done. that was all..just to get a feel for how things differ.

matberry wrote:With dollars being tight, do the type one. I have built many type 1's and type IV's, for kombi's and beetles.
I believe Alex Holzl is now going back to type 1...go figure.
!

alex was always type one but the green monster is t4 all the way. its 2.7L going fuel injected with turbo. just to see if they cant beat that gt3 as well as a new 915 box.
as for dissing builders there are some that should be shot, ie for dodgy practices, the two ive seen mentioned so far are fine but there are others that like the use of red silicon to seal cases. these should be avoided.
ether way the reason i suggested richard is he is the next suburb over from you.

Hillbilly wisdom LOL!!

FYI regarding the conversion to a subaru engine of say 2-2.2L. My bus runs a 2.0 type 4 with ported 1800 heads, 40mm dellorto's, cam change balanced bottom end, super light flywheel,1700 rockers,7.4:1 comp and full custom exhaust. to build something like this would cost somewhere in the vicinity of about 8-10K with all new parts. Now my engine has just had a new set of rings fitted and new exhaust valves and a head repaired from dropping an exhaust valve. engine has done 364000 k's and i ran it at Warwick and was quicker than the subaru powered buses with mildish mods by nearly .5 second. I know for a fact that the suby powered buses are making about the 100hp atw and my engine is prolly around 80-90hp ish. But the thing they lack is the torque so don't be so hung up on HP figures as they don't always tell the truth performance wise.

My engine in a beetle I think would be a killer. Super reliable with nice power and plenty of torque. And you don't have to rev the ring out of it to make it go. 6000rpm tops and low comp makes the longevity factor attractive to me.

Type 1 will definately be cheaper to build if you use cheap parts. I heard a bloke talking at Warwick about the price of rebuilding a Type 4. "about 3k" he was saying. To me that is a very cheap rebuild and would love to know how many corners are being cut to achieve that kind of price. And you can do the same with a Type 1. Short cut and don't do it properly and you could do it real cheap but you are essentially building a hand grenade.

If you want to build a quality performance engine then be content with a stock 1600 and start saving and accumulating the parts needed to do it properly. Otherwise all that will happen is you'll end up with bagging VW's for being unreliable pieces of crap to which they aren't if built properly.

Hi Guys,

Im currious about blowers. I read a while back about a SC12 going on a 1776. Would a SC12 be suitable for a 2l?

Also been pondering those little sump extensions to control oil pick up on hard cornering. Are they a bit exposed? ie do they scrape / ever get severly banged?

Cheers

Newt

HEY! STOLE MY PAINT JOB!!! lulz!!!

yeah sc12 is good for 1.6 - 2.0L as i think it displaces 1200cc of air. were as the sc14 is for 2.5L+ as it does 1400cc? i tihnk thats right?

Ive read that the SC14 was found on 2l (6 cylinder).

Newt

the only reason i didnt use an SC14 is they are just to long physically to fit the type 1 engine
ive also got an SC14 under the house and with the stock cooling no amount of tinkering was gonna make it fit and still have the engine lid not looking like frankenstien

they are perfectly suited to anything over 1.6L

only difference betweeen the 2 is 14 is 50mm longer and displaces 1420cc vs 1200cc for the 12s

alot of the 4AGZE boys swap out their 12s for 14s cos they handle more boost

Sorry for my ignorance, but does that mean the 12 is too small for a 2l?

Newt

depends how much boost u want to run..if its only a little bit of boost, then i think it would be ok? if u want high psi like 10+ psi then i think it would be usless casue it wouldnt be preforming the way an sc14 would be. lol but joel is the one with the experiance!! let him answe the question alot better then i can!! 😀