twin superchargers

Okay... After hearing the AMG E55/SL55/SLR motor on full song. My love affair with rootes blowers has been spark into an infinate, explosive, all consuming, manical whining, never.....
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What was my point again

... Oh yes. Twin superchargers and/or big superchargers. Such as this: http://www.cbbvw.com/drag.html on a VW motor

Anyone know if the twin blown engine, as mentioned, is built yet? how it runs, etc..?

Also, would running two superchargers or a large one be more of a sacrifice than a gain on a big flat 4? I know that running high boost turbos is like "sticking a cork in the exhaust". But I'd assume a 4 cyl' running big boost from a supercharger would suffer more than if running big boost from a turbo.

Does anyone have any thoughts of setting up a supercharged VW motor? I've got the cooling and crank bearing stress sorted, I just wanted some thoughts on throttle response, engine lag, etc...

Dude
Its all got to do with what you have in mind for the engine and how much moolah you wish to spend.

Is this to be a tough streeter or a full blown race engine?

If its a streeter then the idea of twin blowing will come down to purely a cosmetic decision designed to impress the tyre kickers and not a economic one.

Dont even bother to consider the issues of efficiency as far as what power the blower takes out as you will get more than that back in volumetric efficiency.

As far as high boost turbos beign a "cork in the exhaust", why on earth do you say that??

Turbocharges are an "energy recovery device"
This is to say that even tho you are getting 10 psi boost out there is not necessarily 10psi pressure in the zorst manifold. The closer to zero psi the more efficient the setup.

So what if there is a potato in the tailpipe?
Keep that high boost bastard up on boost and the potato ceases to be an issue. A high-po turbo setup usually has very large turbines and A/R ratios to allow lots of zorst gas to escape to prevent the compressor from exceeding its "compressor map" (shaft RPM V's CFM of air V's boost pressure) or over speeding the compressor/turbine which can lead to cavitation of the either of the turbo wheels and a possible wheel failure, buggered oil seals or at least very short turbo life.
So the high boost turbo will actually be far freer flowing in the zorst for a given size of engine than the stocker.

Twin turbos or twin blowers like twin carbs on a V8 or twin zorst tend to be aesthetics choice unless you are chasing the absolute last word in blatant outright performance, efficiency or both. The smaller turbos tend to spool up a little faster than a larger single device.

You are just doubling the technical difficulty of doing the job which will be a one off setup and carrying extra weight which can become a hindrance in other areas such as handling and braking not to mention the drain on finances.

A half size turbo is not half as cheap as a full size turbo iffen you know what I mean.

If you wish to go down the forced induction road and you are out and out desperate to guarantee a heap of impressed tyre kickers around your toy or are going the last word in ultra performance then spend your loot and a lot of it you will, and double up on the blowers, whatever type you choose.

For just about all else but the absolute diehards, a single well matched blower either direct drive or zorst driven, will work well enough to loosen your fillings, set your hair on fire, fry your tyres and guarantee a total engine grenade if things are not exactly correct!

All this at waaaaaaay less that 1/2 of of the spondula you would have to outlay on a twin setup!

Twin superchargers, Roots no less, on a kraut,,,,good lord!
That would sure look mad!!!
Have fun M8
L8tr
E

Yeah, I know. Outright performance, I'd just up the size of the blower and use NOS to spool it up, drag racing stylez!

Just basically looking for anyones thoughts on the subject. I've done heaps of research, but you never know when someone will just mention something new.

I want to go a single supercharger. Dunno why, just for the wank value I think. Having a supercharged car :P.
I don't have any tire kicking, spoiler wearing friends to impress, so that aspect would be a lost cause. I was pretty much asking if anyone has run a supercharger on their VW and how did it affect initial engine response?
I know with the Merc's the '55 series AMG's that don't have blower are much sharper on initial throttle openings, but don't have anywhere near the mid pull of the blown versions. Nor the sound *drools*
The cork up the exhaust comment was in reference to the turbo lag. I know a few people who have also described it this way. Basically it feels like it has a cork and then all hell breaks loose.

I like you dude have always wanted a "blown" engine but I have never happened across a supercharger at the right price to make it worthwhile.

I have 2 turbo cars now and a previous turbo car and it is only the very biggest of boosted turbo cars I have been in that really explode after tromping it and.."stamp..count 1..2..3.. whack"!!!!!
My old turbo capri (Mk 1) had a way to large turbo on it and carried a lot of camshaft and thats what it was like!
The description of turbo lag threw me as i have never heard it described like that b4.

My cobber has blown a V8 HZ wagon and altho much more powerful, feels much the same as it did unblown to the throttle 'cept the blower engine idles far smoother on the big cam that it carries compared to when it ran on carbies alone.

The supercharging route is the gun setup for response with boost available from pretty much idle and rising from there depending on the blower drive ratio.
Curious you say that the AMG's blown feel less responsive from down low tho.
I imagine this would be a result of differing state of tune of each engine such as ECU and camshaft. Could also be a function of the CFM of the particular blower that they employ. maybe it is a little restrictive right down low......
I can only speculate why it feels doughy down low coz really, if the engines are in the identicle setup they should feel pretty much the same but the blown version should just keep on "building up" as it revs up.

Another fun thing you can do with the dak dak is run the blower in a "blow thru" mode via throttle bodies just above the ports and the roots blower having a filter on top only.

The fantastic roots blower "scream" from a blow thru setup has to be heard to be believed. a couple of blow off valves there as well to dump pressure on throttle off should make a hell noise LOL.
If you get a chance to see an old video titled "Supercharged" on the old pre-war blown F1 cars, the sound of the blown Benz W125B's that blew thru a couple of carbies that looked a bit like SU's is not forgotten quickly!
Those cars were awesome as they produced well over 650Hp and weighed 600 kilos from a 3 litre V8.
A power to weight ratio that was only bettered in the later 80's turbo F1 cars!

I hope you go ahead with it tho dude as i, for one, would love to go for a ride!

L8tr dude
E

Cool man! You have good tastes 😀

The lag is put down to extra turning parts. Similar to having heavier flywheels and so on. And also having to create that boost takes away some of the initial power the motor already has. High revving NA cars are the way to go for power and perfect track use. Bang open the throttle and the motor spins up freely and without anything to take with it. Ofcourse they have less power once going.
Have you heard the new Merc motors? They sound identical dude. They sound simply manic. Just insane. I love them!!! They have a bypass on the exhaust too. So when fully opened the exhaust goes nearly straight through with minimal muffling needed. They sound like something else. Wheels describe the SL55 as a WWII supercharged German fighter plane on full throttle. And Jeremy Clarkson described it as a hand grenade down a drain pipe.
They sound unreal. And with over 700NM's of Torque they let you know you're alive as well.

I was thinking pull through roots blower. With injectors on the manifold, just above the intake ports. I've seen injectors run before the blower as well as after. But it may be overkill on just a 4cyl.

I'll definately be doing it. Just getting together bits to building the bottom end. But I'm in no rush, since the car it will be powering is'nt even in my possesion yet.

Bwaaaahahahahaha!
yeah I have seen some weird and wonderful injector setups above, below around, infornt of,,,gawd wherever they can put them!!!

This may be fine for a top fueller but for a road wagon I suspect that injectors in the usual place above the ports should work just fine!
I was just thinking, with a single blower in the middle of the cylinders would allow you to easily run two intercoolers between the blower and the inlets!
Now that would be a benifit!
This engine is sure going to look mad!
No I havent heard the blower Mercs.
They sound like the would "sound" pretty speccy tho! 😉

I shall sure keep an eye out for them.
Not too much of that kind of iron on the roads here in Tassie tho!

L8tr dude
E

Blower=instant power from the moment you push the pedal.
A friend of mine has a toyota blower on his mini with stock carb, it sounds insane and is pretty quick.
I say go for it!

My friend has a 4AGZE in a toyota sprinter, and it was great, the sweet supercharged motor torque band.

He then put a CA18DET in it, bigger capacity and faster in a straight line, but lacked the supercharger punch.

I looked fairly closely into building a twin supercharged type 4 engine for my Baja before deciding the V6 was a cheaper and better option. Not due to the price of the superchargers, but the price of rebuilding a type 4.

I was going to have a supercharger above each cylinder head, on each side. This is where I had spare space in the Baja engine bay, the sides. I found you could buy these little baby superchargers from jap importers for $300. I found a pair I liked, they were originally off a 600cc motor (one per motor).They even had a carb bolted to the top of them. They were so small they woulda worked great for offroading. Woulda turned out cheap too.

Go look at a jap import place, you'll be amazed at what you can get and how cheap you can get it.

There is a kombi on this site running a toyota supercharger I think, custom manifold, all home made.

tassupervee wrote:I was just thinking, with a single blower in the middle of the cylinders would allow you to easily run two intercoolers between the blower and the inlets!
Now that would be a benifit!
This engine is sure going to look mad!
No I havent heard the blower Mercs.
They sound like the would "sound" pretty speccy tho! 😉

I shall sure keep an eye out for them.
Not too much of that kind of iron on the roads here in Tassie tho!

L8tr dude
E

hmm... E-mail me. I've got some pics of a blower set-up that can work around a fan-shroud. Dunno about twin intercoolers tho. Would'nt it be better to have a single, then split the intake manifolds after the intercooler? Would have to be a damn thin and tight intercooler to not end up with insane piping all over the place tho.

I've found a couple of videos of SL55's on kazaa. But you can't hear the sound quite right unfortunately tho.

Wes and Jboy, you speak wise words. I will be going for it. Just gotta build the motor first.
Wes; Unfortunately thats the case. Plus typeIV's have shit heads to begin with. So force feeding them is a pain without nursing. Were those little blowers off a motorcycle? I'm looking at getting a commodore V6 rootes blower, second hand. I've seen a few at swap meets, in the trading post and so on. I'd bet half of them are hot too.
It could be abit overkill on a 'dub motor, but you never know until you try 😀

I have a supercharger on my EH Holden straight 6 cyl, and the power is equal to a warm V8 anyday. Straight LPG, no intercooler.

It is a Yella Terra Charger.

Might be a bit big for a VW motor. They are based on the Eaton/ Commodore V6 pump. 😀

The little superchargers I was looking at were off small japanese cars. I don't know about down there, but up here the good jap import shops have heaps of jap superchargers in stock. Most are roots, but some are the more efficient screw types. Some have magnetic clutches on the front pulley, some can be turned on and off. I think they are the way to go. Heaps of sizes to choose from, and very cheap.

I will try to find the kombi link...

found it...
http://www.aussieveedubbers.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=439

And if your going to go with a draw through set-up and carbs, find a supercharger that doesn't mind having fuel put through it. Some of the new EFI ones only see air and perhaps won't like fuel. That's why I knew the superchargers with the carbs on top would be fine :thumb

The sweetest sounding motor I have heard was a Maserati 3200 taking off from a Servo on the Autobahn in Germany somewhere.The Twin Turbo V8 sounded so nasty, such a fat, wide sound. The driver took off in first gear slowly, then just nailed it and wheelspin straight away, then grabbed second, a nice change, not a racing change, and flattened it again for more progressive wheelspin and the glorious note continuing all the while. Definitely the best engine note I have heard, close second is the new Turbo Porsches racing at Warwick last July.

Another Killer sound is that of Dave Butler's Twin Supercharged Beetle motor. He dragged this car competitively a few years back. For info on the setup, give Crankshaft Engineering a call. I haven't talked to them for a while, but they were always keen to help me with enquiries or just to chat. ask for Craig Brown or Dave.

Thanks Wes. You mentioned screw types being more efficent. I always assumed roots were more efficent. Can you explain about the screw type for me? Cheers.

T25, I had a guy giving a new RS6 a hammer whilst I was watching the other day. Did sound mad. But blowers have a more manic mechanic sound to them. Dunno why, but it just does it for me.

Never heard of that car before, where abouts is crankshaft engineering located?

BTW, I've attached some sound bites of the AMG blown V8.

Crankshaft Engineering is in Browns Plains in Bris, Ph (07) 3806 7488.

Dave's beetle was a regular starter at Willowbank drags. Did great wheel stands off the line.

Is the car still raced?

here's a quick run down on the 3 types of superchargers;
http://www.rcspoolers.com/Root_vs_Cent_vs_Screw.htm

So there is the traditional roots. simple, cheap. but inefficient and some pulsing at low speed.

Screw types are a more advanced roots type in a way. more efficient, lower charge temps, no pulsing.

Centrifugal are like a belt driven turbo. turbo style rpm to boost relationship, efficient but expensive.

Then there are other types around, like the judson which was a sliding vane compressor. cheap, but inefficent, pulsing, low boost pressure, requires oiling.

I think victor bray was the first drag racer in his class to move from roots to the screw type charger quite a few years ago now.

most cars these days use screw type superchargers.

Cam,

Here's something for you;

SC14 Super Charger off a Toyota 1GGZE. -$250.00 Inc. GST (AUD)

Sold by a jap import place in NSW;
http://www.japaneseimportparts.com/

and if you go into the conversion section of the forum you can look up what a 1GGZE is....
Name: 1G-GZE
Type: 1988cc EFI DOHC 24-valve 6-cyl supercharged
Power: 127kW @ 6000
Torque: 225Nm @ 3600
Sources: 1990 Crown

Should suit a 2lt VW nicely, and at the right price. Just have to check what it thinks of fuel if your going draw through carby. If your EFI then you got no worries :thumb

Some guys on a hotrod forum have been using these (a few are using 2!).

Those running the blower/s "dry" are having the most success.

Whats involved in fitting a supercharger to a veedub engine ? what will i need and is it worth it ?
Opions and guidance please. just an idea.
Cheers big ears.

bugboymatt, I merged your post with this one. I think most of your answers are already here...

Cheers wes :thumb

Hey guys, I found a yahoo group on this subject too.

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/blownbugs/

So what components do i need !!
Is it better to maybe get some of the little small chargers like wes found of the 6oocc jobby and have two !
Or do away with my 45's and just one with a new carb !
Just learning at the mo so might be stupid questions !!!

Is anyone or anyone planning on running one ?

One decent sized one with injection seems to be the way to go.

Join the yahoo community and check out the pics for some ideas, dude.

Why have one when you can have two?

Lookin' good hey?

Who's is that ?

See it in the CBB Racing drag 56 at the Nats

Does it fit under the engine lid, or is he running with Hoodjax?

:thumb

It's a drag car.

Has a wing.

Mat I should get you to shoot Pic of my set up.
You did fabulous job of Mikes.
Mine will stick through the eng lid - it is Road going car.

When can you get back over there to snap pic with all the
Blower Hats on.?
Could you light up the manifold area ? I dont think people realise how Easy and Cheap this stuff is.
Ok I'll admit that I have spent Many Many Hours stuffing around on mine, but not loads of money.
Earlier Mock up with my crap Camera

and wider shot

Matt , did you know that Laza is working on his Blower again,
it is very close- but registering that Black beast of his could prove difficult

Now Cam, the Only reason that CBB went to twin Blowers is
Cost.
His set up is Cheap, he would have to have one of the Lowest budgets of the Drag Beetle guys running in Sydney.
. The motor is a bit expensive - exotic
fuels / inj etc, but those Blowers are so cheap - to buy one that would do the job would have been Very expensive.
These Jap blowers 43 Cu In per Turn (off 2 L ) are maybe $350 or so , there may be some doubt as to there State
/ wear , but they were street blowers.
Mike does all sorts of Metal Fabrication at reasonable rates.
Ask him at Nationals " how much to make manifold for Blower?"

I installed large spacers on mine to bring comp down to 7.8 :1.
With 7 lbs boost this brings dynamic compression or equivalent comp to around 9:1.(I could look up my calcs but am tired1:05am)
-
the supercharger is "A piece" she looks great but is slightly smaller than the 2L Toyota blower - readily available.
Mine is longer and thinner. will effortlessly pump 10 lbs if geared that way. Power is easily adjusted by changing boost.
I intend max of 8 lbs boost and expect 100 HP (not too exciting)and will only rev to 5800 RPM but the torque and light car will make it accelerate like a Big Block V8. I intentionally fitted large diameter Rear wheels - Blowers love to push big gear ratios. "Its all about GRUNT".
-
the blower is "classed as MC80 " , It is 40 Cubic Inches. just as comparison the 2L Toyota blower is 43 ci.
My 1916 cc is equal to 117 ci but luckily you dont need full volume filling (due to flow inefficiences). Because its a four stroke...... 2x40 ci gives 80 ci
will be running 1.25 ratio .. 1.25 x 80 = 100 ci.
In comparison I think the 2L is 123 ci.
They run 1.3 x 43 x 2 = 112 ci.
I tried to calc boost but this is a difficult
job. I believe I have a good starting point .
Mike made the Blower drive to be
easily adjusted " bolt on new pulley wheel"
so I will have to try and see.







[Edited on 25-3-2004 by OvalGlen]

Sounds good, thanks for the info boys.

So, those 2L toyota blowers come with carbs do they?

I've got some early 911 heads coming which will be adapted to a type 1 motor running a WBX crank. The idea being to basically get the best flowing aircooled heads I can find. Would 1 2L blower either side be way too much boost for a 2.2-ish motor? I don't mind if the thing is a cranky, hot cantancorous animal, infact... I prefer it:alien

Cheers,
Cam

Well, not really apart from the hassle of actually bracketing the things on and driving them.
Altho at the end of the day a "2 litre" blower is not eaxctly going to have its toungue hanging out on a 2.2 litre motor unless the boost pressure/rpm limits are really insane.
You can just gear down the blower drives to limit max boost if you insist on using 2 of 'em!

Will sure look a heavy hitter however, with two of the bloody things hanging off it tho.
l8tr
E

Yeah, gotta admit it's more about the looks, but also the boost 😉

What kinda boost pressures are you aiming at with that setup dude?

Not sure as yet man, whatever the poor old aircooled set-up can handle. Somewhere around 20+psi?!?!?