Hey, i am from perth and am planning on putting an ej20t into my 71superbug. i am however having trouble finding an adaptor kit for this engine. the only places i have found that do them are in the eastern states.
are there any places in perth that do these adaptor kits?
and also the engine is about 197hp so i figure i will need to get a new gearbox. wat gearbox would be most suited for this application. it would need to be able to handle more than 200hp because after the installation i also plan on beefing up the engine.
any help would be greatly appreciated
Anthony
71superbug ·
yeah i did that. i U2U him. he said he is having a look at the moment. so all is good.
thanks mate
seagull ·
Yes I have stock for auto boxes can do the turbo ones as well , this I do a run and it is based at the time on numbers more I get the cheaper it is .
You need to have a look back at a few posts as there is some related subjects to what you are doing .
I am about to do the same build mates car so you may wish to see that as it goes .But I will be using a R30 box Renault close ratio around 5k for the box .
I have seen this box blown up as well with that HP but off road racing .There is Choper over here in Perth has the rs2ltr in his notch runs at the drags its red .fast as but has a swing axel if I recall usa diff $$$$ ,I think he has blown it up not sure ,but there is problems with the irs bushes with wheel tramp ,I will be doing an A arm conversion .any way have a read . seagull
71superbug ·
is there any chance of being able to mount a s13silvia gearbox onto the EJ20t in the car?
MR930 ·
I've bought the EJ20T conversion kits from both Sherman and Bill Croft at Unicap . Both are in Australia.
seagull ·
71 ,I have never seen that box in Vw so I can not say yess or no .
I have seen a renault box with a 9" diff in a race car ,It all costs $$ and for a low budget set up I dont know what you can afford to do .I have some motor prices for you soon .seagull
The renault truck gear box seams to the go but a mile apart with some of the gears .
pete wood ·
I have heard good things about unicap and Volks conversions adaptors. I have a john sherman adaptor myself.
As far as g/boxes go you could build a bus or bug box to handle the power but it's going to cost $$$.
Try these guys. They do custom gear sets and super diffs (I think). http://www.albinsgear.com.au/
just remember the more power you want the more it costs. Thats why I put an NA ej25 in my buggy.😉
Slow ·
has anyone tried to use the ej20t gearbox?
Cory
seagull ·
you can not use the subaru gear box the gear box is very big and you can not turn the diff crown wheel around like a renault box .
71superbug ·
does anyone have any idea about the silvia gearbox?. and also i am chasing info on the falcon rear disc conversion. anyone with info please let me know.
71superbug ·
does anyone have any idea about the silvia gearbox?. and also i am chasing info on the falcon rear disc conversion. anyone with info please let me know.
seagull ·
no the silvia gear box is no good looked at the one down the street to day .the falcon disk brake rear I have stock .
humpty ·
Choppas Notch (12 second road car that gets 45mpg!) runs an IRS rear, no axle tramp issues, but no traction either!
He did blow the stock ratio box (TRANSFORM built) after 5 years of abuse, he rebuilt it himself (first time evr inside a transaxle), works ok if a little noisy! Looking at getting a box from RANCHO now to replace it....Way cheaper that getting something built here....Like $700 US....Look at about $1600 US deivered!
71superbug ·
what this you are talking about humpty?
71superbug ·
what this you are talking about humpty?
seagull ·
71 you need to get out some more come to a few VW outings and see marks * choppers beast ! It is a notch bock see members rides * there is not many in perth * notch * Humpty & chopper are bros I can not see the relation ship one bit hee hee !
If you went to the street mach show a year ago you would os see the red beast ,there .
71superbug ·
can someone give a link to the thread where it has choppers notch?
seagull ·
I dont thik it is here now ,I will u2u his email address and U can get hold of him there ,seagull
he is running a rs motor ,this was done about 4 . 5 years ago I think you may have seen it at the drags seagull
71superbug ·
yeh. that would be good. thanks. by the way. any prices for the EJ20T motor yet seagull?
seagull ·
I got the email address sending it now .
I have a few guys looking for them and need to get numbers before I can get a price to you Um do you what the stock ECU ?? or are you geting aftermarket ?? cat converter ?
71superbug ·
dunno. about ecu. i'll see the price diff and see which is worth getting
seagull ·
$350.00 to get the ecu sorted > $1400.00 >$2300.00 for after market
71superbug ·
so 1400 for EJ20T with ECU and loom?
seagull ·
no thats $350.00 to get orig ecu sorted out * stand alone * or the after market units are any where from $1000.00 > $2500.00 + Then you need to wire the motor ect .
I use the stock one and send them to QLD .
So far I have been looking for a bulk buy at a good cost so if you are in a hurry you may wish to ask around your self .seagull
71superbug ·
well. after ringing a few places. the best i price i can find is. $2200 for EJ20T with ECU and Loom
seagull ·
who was this ??
71superbug ·
a Subaru Wrecker somewhere in perth. cant remember the place off the top of my head
seagull ·
so add the following
$350.00 ecu sorted out
$500.00 radator
$280.00 fan
$300.00 pipe work to radator
$700.00 adapter plate & fly wheel
$580.00 clutch may be more (?)
$150.00new mounts
$600.00 brakes rear
$? gear box ?
$100.00 air filter set up
$450.00 new fuel tank Or $150.00 pot
$175.00 cat converter
$170.00 muffler
$120.00 wires and fuses
Some one to sign for it adr $850.00
may be more
71superbug ·
im sure this can be done cheaper if you were to have a creative bone in your body and fabricate these things yourself
seagull ·
yes you can the word I use is call TIME .95% of the time I am in my shed fabricating things that would blow you away .
[Edited on 29-5-2004 by seagull]
71superbug ·
so yeah. with the creative bone. correct tools. and right skills. half of the costs you have put down there would not be anywhere near as high correct?. and why do u require a new fuel tank?
seagull ·
you can do the fuel high pressure pot of you like I go the other way .Fit a custom tank around $450.00
[Edited on 29-5-2004 by seagull]
[Edited on 29-5-2004 by seagull]
71superbug ·
???
seagull ·
o the photo is when you find some time ,hee hee :rudolf
71superbug ·
cant quite see wat it is
Jenny ·
Ford EA rear disc brake conversion, showing the mounting bracket and caliper with another mounting bracket leaning up against it lower left... you can see the Suby motor in the background
[Edited on 29-5-2004 by Jenny]
Doug Sweetman ·
what was your address again neil..... I need to break into your shed sometime 🙂 jokes....
seagull ·
Dont try the window you will be DEAD just like the last guy !BUSSSSSSS hee hee
humpty ·
71....Check it out on my web site...You'll find it in the "members cars" section....
I went to Swan wreckers on friday ask a few prices
half cut ej20t manual or auto $2500
ej22 half cut $2800
Go figure??
If anyone is considering buying a half cut i'd be interested in the gearbox if it's manual
humpty ·
ezy, this one....EJ20T is old tech and plentiful and the EJ22 is new tech and rare....
What you need the box for...Wont go in a Dub....?
helbus ·
EJ22 should not be that expensive I would have thought. I am sure you can get them Sydney or Melb for $2000 and maybe as low as $1500.
humpty ·
You gotta remember something VERY important here....
The market here in Perth is VERY small and the popularity of the engines dictates the cost. And the EJ20T that was quote is more than likely an RS front cut, which is more than likely 5 or more years old. Subaru has been making these engine for a very long time and they haven't actually put an EJ20T into a Liberty for years. The EJ22 on the other hand is a current engine and they are in very short supply.
seagull ·
yes I agree simon the 1.8 subaru turbo any good ?
I need your address as well please to pick up the bits ta seagull
humpty ·
Neil...They are ok, but....,
Very old tech (20+ years now!), no CW crank, parts are getting harder to find and they don't make a lot of power for the work.
On a postive note, they are compact, the sump doesn't hang too low and are an EZ fit into a bug. I wouldn't think about sticking one in anything else, except maybe a cheap bush basher or a light trike...Not like the ones you make!!!
71superbug ·
1.8 subaru turbo?. from the old forresters or what?
71superbug ·
1.8 subaru turbo?. from the old forresters or what? or the really old liberty?
seagull ·
yes 71 supper bug this would do him @17 fast for him and a good motor for the cost I think
humpty ·
71SB...They came out of the Leone, Brumby and Sports Wagon. I think the last one was made sometime in the late 80's or early 90's...Not too sure.
seagull ·
I have two book here on them fit nice to a sb .
the quad cam is fast for the trike simon ,too fast .
seagull ·
I have a book on the 1.8 in a supper bug it looks very neat in the car 200 hp out put .71 you can have this book
71superbug ·
thanks man. i will have to come around sometime and get it hey. so any idea of the engine designation? (model)?
seagull ·
I know the guy >he has my number >he will call >i will let you know good night from me
have a look around, also check out the january 2003 page, it's got a cost breakdown of what my conversion cost me. You can see it can end up relatively cheap if you do alot yourself.
71superbug ·
hehe. i found your page a while back. when i was searching for ej20t conversion info. yours was the first page i visited when i googled it. before AVD lol. but i will have a look. i didnt see the cost breakdown.
i couldnt see a prioce for transmission in there?.
[Edited on 5-7-2004 by 71superbug]
Baja Wes ·
I already had a kombi box so it wasn't part of the conversion. It would be $2000 for a rebuilt and beefed up 6-rib tops (not going to full aftermarket gears though).
71superbug ·
ahh ok cool. so a kombi box can handle it ey. hmm. cool. and how much for new gears. say 1, 2nd and 3rd?
Baja Wes ·
I got a 2lt kombi box, with 4-spider diff, 0.70:1 albins 4th gear set, and completely rebuilt for under $2000.
Albins gear sets were $350 each when I bought mine.
My 2lt is doing just fine, but I don't drop the clutch on the road or try to do burnouts. Ask me again in 10 yrs and I'll tell you how the 2lt handles 200HP.
I know a guy with a 330HP at the wheels kombi (13B turbo). He broke the stock gears in the 2lt kombi, and is now running a full set of albins gears and it seems to be doing ok.
71superbug ·
jesus. 330rwhp is quite a bit. that sure aint a standard 13b turbo. and the MOST amount of Horsepower i would be getting is 200. and thats if i went with ej20t conversion. but i am thinking just turbo 1600 for the moment.
VWCOOL ·
71superbug wrote:so yeah. with the creative bone. correct tools. and right skills. half of the costs you have put down there would not be anywhere near as high correct?. and why do u require a new fuel tank?
Nah, I think those conversion costs are pretty-well spot-on, maybe even conservative...
humpty ·
If you go the EJ20T route, you will end up with around 250hp (FW), which is around 225 @ the wheels.....Very conservative I might add. If you are running a bigger bore exhaust and aircleaner set-up, you could add maybe 5-10%!
Think like this....My brothers Notch does EZ flat 13's all day (spinning the wheels I might add!), gets 45mpg, is legal and runs a (tuff built) standard ratio TI box and swayaway axles.....A bigger turbo is in the pipeline now!
71superbug ·
ej20t has 250hp at the flywheel?. what year EJ20T u lookin at?. or u lookin at the jap spec one out of the WRX??
71superbug ·
???
pete wood ·
The sti motor is 221kw or 300hp at the flywheel.
The aussie wrx issue is 180kw or 220hp approx at the flywheel.
I used the ej25 quad cam NA coz it had more cubes and less (gbox smashing) power. 119kw or 165hp. However, the torque is huge right of idle and it spins my 31x10"r15s round any corner in 2nd gear (1800 kombi box) on tarmac.
seagulls right too, the EJ20t motor would be suicide in a trike. Not only that, EJ motors are heavy. The weight for each of them is listed in the pdf above.
Think "Eternal wheelstand"! 😠
Baja Wes ·
actually the STi motor is only rated at 206kW or 276HP, which is the japanese HP limit. They can't claim any higher, there is debate whether they are actually higher or not.
And I'm pretty sure early WRX motors were 147kw (197HP), they then went to 150 something kw, and are now higher. I haven't kept record.
In general Australian spec motors will be lower HP than jap spec ones due to the different fuel in japan, they run motor's harder with higher compression ratios.
And for the record 180kW is actually 241HP, not 220. 🙂
barls ·
and also higher octaine ratings our pulp is still only their ulp and they have 2 more above this
71superbug ·
yeah the ej20t i was looking at is the one from the liberty RS. 147 kw (197hp).
pete wood ·
SORRY GUYS.
2 + 2 = ? (7000hp) maybe.....
never was any good at maths. still, you got the right numbers in the end. :thumb
humpty ·
What do you want to stick this engine into anyway?
Anything smaller that a TIII is near on impossible without maror surgery!
Forget a Bug with a bus box! The only way to get one under a decklid, is to chop up the torsion housing and run short bars. Then we are talkin' engineering.
71superbug ·
it would have been into a 71 superbug. 😉
pete wood ·
humpty wrote:The only way to get one under a decklid, is to chop up the torsion housing and run short bars. Then we are talkin' engineering.
Humpty, there is always another way to do things. Cutting torsion tubes is ugly and, in some states, more than likely illegal. However, you will need alot of creative engineering and imagination to make it fit and be easy to work on.
71superbug ·
yeah. not impossible. and if i were to do it i would do it properly. wether i need to get an engineers approval or not.
Baja Wes ·
71superbug wrote:yeah. not impossible. and if i were to do it i would do it properly. wether i need to get an engineers approval or not.
If you don't get it approved then you haven't done it properly.
If you need to understand how difficult it would be to fit simply check out Reub's car; http://offroadvw.net/vwrx/
There are no more torsion bars, and the body has been seriously cut such that there is virtually none of it left at the rear.
pete wood ·
Wes, didn't Reuben cut up his car to fit the porsche gbox in? Surely there's another way of doing it. If 71 keeps with a kombi box and builds it up tough, he wouldn't need to cut the torsion bars out at all. Seems like a better solution to cutting the chassis. However 71, you will still need room for the turbo and to fit the heads in properly at the back of the car. Check out this page and you'll see what I mean. It an EJ25 but the effect is the pretty much the same.
yes reub has a porsche box, but the engine is still big.
The EJ20 doesn't fit in between the side panels at the rear of the beetle body (sides of the engine bay). It is a big sucker.
humpty ·
I have done loads of measurements, and i know it can be done, but like I said...Loads of cutting to get it too fit. And that was because you want a bus box and that is why I said stick with a bug box....The length is the main issue here! Width is not a real problem, but still loads of cutting and you will more than likely have to remove the timing belt covers, relocate the oil filler and cut a bloody great hole in the firewall for the intake, especially if you EJ20T.
All that said, I still want to do it.
71superbug ·
sorry wes. i meant i will do it properly. wether it requires engineering or not. not approval. sorry. what bug box can handle this sort of power?.
reub's is crazy. that is wat made me want to do the conversion in the 1st place.
humpty ·
A much modded bug box will cope, but you can break anything if you try hard enough! Like I said B4, my brothers notch runs a standard style box. Gusseted, big side plates, Monster Diff, welded gears and all sorts of internal mods. No special ratios as the car is road car, but still manages flat 13's all day.
Just think about that for a moment.... 45mpg, legal, full interior, electric windows, fantastic long distance road car and very quiet too! Add some better quality tyres, tighten up the suspension a little and fit a drag box and you will run a lot quicker, but at a cost to drivabilty.....What do you want?
pete wood ·
what's your opinion of gusseted boxes. I have heard it weakens the metal, but others say it's the way to go.
71;
have you checked out the subbug yahoo group. There's a guy there with the EJ20tt in an empi imp. He is using a swingaxle box that's built up tough. I have been told that swingaxle boxes are the toughest configuration for bug style boxes. However, IRS would mean you could move the box slightly forward I think. This could give you abit more room.
[Edited on 21-7-2004 by pete wood]
[Edited on 21-7-2004 by pete wood]
71superbug ·
yeah i also heard that the swingaxle box was stronger. has a 3.88 final drive whereas the irs has 4.125?. dunno how true this is but thats what i heard. move it slightly forward? wouldnt that cause a lot of problems and require quite a bit of work ?
Baja Wes ·
late swingers and IRS boxes are 3.88. early swingers are lower.
Stock IRS is stronger than stock swingaxle. I speak from experience (broke 3 swingers, 0 IRS beetle, 0 IRS kombi). Swingaxles can be beefed up alot but it costs huge amounts of money. The CV's on the IRS absorb alot of the shocks and help the gearbox live longer than the swinger.
I personally would (and did) go to a bus box. There is shit all length difference between a bus box and a beetle box.
I wouldn't gusset a beetle box, I would just go straight to a bus box.
humpty ·
Wes is right on about box strength and ratios but one thing I must question is bus/bug length difference. Even though the difference is minimal, I think in a stock bodied bug the difference is a massive issue. Even with a standard bug box, the overall length of the EJ20 engine is too great. The issue is not the crankshaft/pulley clearance, but the timing cover/innerguard/engine cover relation that is in question. Being that 71's bug is a late model, he will have slightly more width in the rear of his car to play with, but he will more than likely have to remove the timing belt covers to get it under, and make the rear apron and guards removable as most of the inner guard will be removed. Which of course opens up the bumper mount problems also.....Not so easy is it?
That said, I have been looking @ doing this to my 63 bug for a few years now. Was gonna stay with an aircooler for this car, but my SVX conversion and my brothers Notch is changing my ideas!!!!
Just remember...Nothing is impossible!
seagull ·
subaru gets too you !
humpty ·
Too bloody right!
And they are so smooooth to drive!
seagull ·
come to the other side !
Um max will take you for a ride on the subaru trike did you see it on tv ?
pete wood ·
that means it has to go higher up between the forks of the chassis and so you lose clearnace above the box and for the starter motor :o
Baja Wes ·
I had a poke around for a photo that shows how far back my kombi box sat. This one is the 1800 box.
You can see relative to the gearbox mounting bracket at the rear of the forks, the gearbox sits back in almost the same position as the beetle box. There ain't much in it.
And the width isn't that bad. You simply need to notch the forks a little, but that's easy. Especially compared to the rest of the work he is going to have to do.
I have mounted my gearbox high in the chassis, but that's cos it's an offroader and I wanted the engine a little higher for clearance. You can mount the kombi box just as low as you could mount the beetle gearbox I reckon.
1303Steve ·
pete wood wrote:that means it has to go higher up between the forks of the chassis and so you lose clearnace above the box and for the starter motor :o
Hi
You could then raise the luggage compartment floor to give more clearance like Wes has done, make it removable for access. Going higher will also give better sump clearance.
1302Steve
pete wood ·
Hey Wes,
the gbox has to go abit higher. It's significantly wider than the beetle one and won't sit as low. I know this from putting the 002 box in my chassis. you can bend down the seams on the horns to give more clearance but in the end it has to sit higher.
Also, how much body lift have you got, coz by looking at the pic there has to be about 2" between the upper shock mount and the access hole in the body. This has some effect on clearance too. But I like your setup. 🙂
71superbug ·
anyone have any idea about exhaust clearance or something. i heard it is a problem.
Baja Wes ·
yes I have a 2inch body lift. 😉
And trust me, you can get it low in the forks. You can make the CV's rest on the frame horns if you want. Simply notch the forks and then reseam weld it.
When I was playing with my setup and had no mounts I had it sitting low, so the CV were sitting on the forks.
I really don't think going to a kombi box is going to make it any more difficult than using a beetle box. It ain't gunna fit either way, it's just how much trimming you will need to do. And I don't think there would be much difference in trimming between the two. 🙂
71superbug ·
yeah i think if you are going to fit an ej20t. there will be a fair emount of cutting and body work required neway. so that wouldnt make too much of a difference. it basically comes down to price and performance with the transmission to which one would be used.
humpty ·
Just a short note on the cost of the box....
My brother just bought another box for the US, same spec as last time I believe.
Cost him $1800 Aust plus duty, landed. As you may know. This has ALBINS gears, monster diff, gusseted box, welded syncros, new bearings throughout, bus CV flanges, welded shift forks, 181 side gears and a whole host of other bits.
The last one lasted 5.5 years before it started to make any noise. Not too bad for a bolt in job and no mods to the car!
Bus would be better, but needs more work to fit and the shift is not nearly as nice to use. Maybe next time, with a BERG nose cone adapter!
ok. all in all. i have decided to stick with my 1600 until i can get a loan and go crazy on an engine conversion. so. i was wondering what the best motor (quickest and reliable) motor to purchase strip down, clean up, stick in vw and modify would be. even with a blown out budget as i plan on getting apprenticeship next year and then getting a loan when i turn 18.
if i can do it i am willing to borrow about 10grand if i get an apprenticeship and also save some from when i work. that would be my budget for engine transplant. any help with this would be great. this is not 100%. but if i get apprenticeship it will be 😀
thanks
anthony
humpty ·
Cool site Steve...It is a shame he hasn't finished yet...I know how that it! My SVX project is 2 years down the track and still no end in sight!
You know Jeff Unwin don't you? What box was he running in his R(S)ace Notch? I'd like to see whats under that car!
71Bug...What are you asking here?...I'm a little lost!
71superbug ·
umm the thread started off with me asking for a price or something?. but kinda evolved to i dunno wat. a conversation about engine transplants in general and then gearbox choice. its good really. all interesting to know.
i heard a 13bturbo conversion could be the way to go over the ej20t conversion. and shouldnt cost much more.
Baja Wes ·
71superbug wrote:i heard a 13bturbo conversion could be the way to go over the ej20t conversion. and shouldnt cost much more.
The 13B turbo has this slight problem of being totally illegal in a beetle. The 13B is classed as a 2.6L motor for legal transplant reasons. So a 13B turbo is classed as a 2.6L turbo. far too big.
71superbug ·
so u saying even if u get engineering cert .etc you cant get it done properly and on the road?
Baja Wes ·
that's exactly what I am saying.
For a modified production vehicle, even with engineer certification, a 13B turbo in a bug would be illegal.
You can't even do it as an ICV cos they don't make 13B turbos anymore, unless you want to pay lots for emissions testing and all other insane requirements.
humpty ·
Whats all this "ICV" talk?....Not familiar with the term.
Even if you could legally stick a rotor in, why would you?
They can't be made to run in a VW...The trans ratios that are available don't suit the powerband of the wankel!
Everyone who has tried, ended up with a very undrivable car....I know a guy here in Perth that fitted 12A turbo into a bug years ago, and he reckon that we couldn't get a Liberty RS engine to work in a VW...
He was way wrong....Our car is very drivable, legal and VERY economical.....
He kept frying clutches and he only managed a mid 14 quarter!
We get flat 13's (done a high 12) all day and still have the same clutch for the last 5 years!!!!
[Edited on 11-8-2004 by humpty]
Baja Wes ·
most modified cars are registered as modified production vehicles.
In QLD we have what they call an ICV - Individually constructed vehicle. It basically lets you run wild and do pretty much whatever you want. The only thing is you have to comply with alot of modern ADR's including emmissions.
A 1600 kombi box in a beetle would give pretty good ratio's for a rotary, nice and low. I'm not a huge fan of Rotaries either.
Baja Wes ·
for people's reference, QLD and NSW rules at least...
humpty ·
Looks to be a similar set-up to what we have here.
A 2.0ltr turbo engine is about as large as you can go is the car originally was manufactured with a 1.6ltr NA engine.
Commercial vehicle are a different kettle of fish....No rules really!
Just make sure your brakes and the suspension are upgraded to there reccomendations.
So I have stuck a 3.3ltr 185kw/309flbs 6cyl in a bus that was manufactured with a 1.6ltr turbo diesel (64hp?) engine!!!!
71superbug ·
what you mean by "commercial" vehicle?
seagull ·
= pay load of over 1 tone
71superbug ·
lol. 1 tonne standard? 🙁 damn. that sucks.
71superbug ·
hmm. i want an apprenticeship. so i can get a loan and finish my car. tell me. a volkswagen motor producing 200hp compared to say an ej20t producing 197hp. advantages and disadvantages of both. (i would use EFI.etc on vw motor)
71superbug ·
that vw motor being NA. turbo could still be added?
wacked1 ·
Baja Wes ·
71superbug wrote:tell me. a volkswagen motor producing 200hp compared to say an ej20t producing 197hp.
The difference would be about $10,000 dollars, and years of engine life. All against the VW motor.
71superbug ·
you are able to order engine from the u.s (vw motors producing about 200hp) are you not?., already built?. i think 5grand u.s. plus obviously shipping and tax
what are these motors like?
boof2332 ·
I have a 2332 in peices awaiting building, which I am now going to sell and put in an ej20t.
I have spent countless hours researching big engined VW's. This is somthing you would be looking at....nothing cheaper would be any good....trust me! John who is selling this works for vw parts unlimited.
Now thats $6000 us which is $8500 Australian. You will get hit with duty and shipping will be heaps. You would not land it under $10,000.
The engine has a web86c which is right up there, so on the street it will suck, and there will be alot of stress on the valve train.
Reality is that H.P is not want you want to aim for in a vw engine unless you want to drag it. Sure H.P is good but what about a long flat torque curve that gives instant throttle response and crazy street acceleration. Look at want you require from your motor and build it around that.
Go to www.shoptalkforums.com and read, and read, and read....work out want you want in a motor, how much you have to spend, and go from there. Two things though...heads are the key(my DRD ones were $1800)...and cam choice will be your hardest decision.
For half the money, 5 times the relaibility, more refinement...I have now chosen to go with the subaru.
Good luck,
Ask me anything if you want to get stuff from the US.
Matt (sorry for the length!)
71superbug ·
yeah good point. to have an engine that will behave itself on the street is good. i was just wondering what peoples opionions on high powered vw motors is. jap motors have much more technology aswell
seagull ·
Welcome to H2o Matt and Subaru performance .
:vader
seagull
boof2332 ·
71 Super,
Do not get me wrong....there is no sweeter sound than a big stroker motor being fed by a couple of 48IDA's...If you have not been in one...you should.
It will make the decision not top get one really hard, trust me as I have just made it!
Economies of scale, reliability and power....and my car is already pretty much as modified as you can get....natural progression.
If I had an immaculate oval body with a set of fuchs alloys, I would stay with the vw motor just so I dont butcher the nice car.
Look foward to your assistance Neil,
Matt
humpty ·
I have been for rides in 250hp+ street VW's and 250hp+ Subi powered VW's....No contest, Go the Sub route.
I own a 120hp street VW, that has run a best of 14.8 quarter and has been my daily driver for over 10 years, heads by Shimo, the rest by me, with help from Hellbug, way back when. This engine has been across Oz 3 times, been raced in classic rallies, sprints, autokanas and done time at Wannaroo Raceway, and does still bring a smile to my dial. I have been planning and collecting parts for 6 years towards a turbo intercooled 1915 and now it's all gonna go. After 5 years of living with a EJ20T powered VW in the family I have decided to get wet and 4 camm the sucker!
If you want serious driveabilty and a car that will live longer and greener, then put down your bucks on a Ej20T or similar. Forget the aircooler for power.
Now I also have a Judson waiting for that special early bug project. But this is not a history lesson and I have too many projects as it is!!!
seagull ·
one more to the other side I say !
71superbug ·
mmmm. ej18 maybe?. i dunno. im so confused. i have ridden in neither a high power vw motor'd car or a subi powered vw. that would help.
humpty ·
You knew it would happen Neil..... It was just a matter of time! I'm sure my SVX will scare me a little....Imagine an easy 240hp in a bus!!!!
seagull ·
Yes I can tell these things
71superbug ·
anyone got either of these i can get a ride in?. wether it be a highpowered vw engine beetle or subi powered beetle?
seagull ·
go to the swapmet see them there 26/9 perth
71superbug ·
hmmmm. i have had the mind working (for once) and have decided that a rotary conversion could be the easiest and cheapest option....seems too cost too much to draw power from a vw engine. and not so reliable.
so.. i have found for sale a 13b N/A motor (carby), vw transmission, adaptor kit, radiator, and stell tubing. was in a bug but they apparently didnt get the permits and now have to strip the car down and do it again if they want to run it?. anyway. this is all going for $1500. wat u guys think? and wat else has to be done in order to install it into my bug. ??
thanks
Anthony :alien
seagull ·
you will need to get this enginered cost around $600.00 as for how good it is I would not wast my time its old and needs to comply with the new ADR regulations , you need to ring the tech section at welspool and ask .
I am sure these stick out the engine lid ??
if you were going to keep this for a long time do a fuel injected conversion .
get down to the swapy and have a look at some of the cars , all the guys are helpfull you only need to ask them .🙂
71superbug ·
where and when is the swapmeet?
seagull ·
have a look at the events section
seagull ·
I dont think choper will have the notch there but there would be some other Vw to see .
71superbug ·
im pretty sure it stays under the decklid. (not 100%). 600 dollars for engineered? wat exactly do they do? a rotary may be old. but it wont be as old as my vw motor 🙂
boof2332 ·
Better check the history of the rota mota...they are often rebuilt more than VW performance ones.
Also no torque!!!!!
71 Super...have you been in a bug with a big stroked engine yet? If not do so, then get a ride in a subaru powered bug and there will be one thing in common. Torque..instant throttle response in all gears...this is what I love.
If it is high revving hp and no torque, then get your rotary.
Personally i think you should try before you buy so you know what you want.....patience young jedi, seagull will complete your training!
Matt
boof2332 ·
Oh here is a list of costs to date on my ej20t project.
Motor.....$850...no computer.
Microtech $600 Thanks seagull.
Sti intercooler....$200
Adaptor, flywheel....$600
Clutch Kit..... $275
Alfa 33 Radiator and 2x 10 inch thermo's....$179
Radiator piping, stainless flexible tube front to back(expensive but very easy)...$480
Have to make up exhaust and intercooler pipes then weld in a back cross mount and fab up a few mounting points for the rear apron and gaurds where I went silly with the grinder and we are in business....
Matt
humpty ·
Sounds like it's coming together boof.....How's Jaks going? She running yet?
Marks Notch cost he around $3800 all in. Though he's clever bastard...Did the whole thing himself. Engineers and inspectors loved it too! That engine cam Brooky Spares too, delivered to our place in WA. Not too bad huh...Forget the Rotor...I have been for a ride in Rotor powered VW.....Terrible thing on the road, got shocking mileage and not really all that fast for the work. There is one here in Perth with a 12A turbo engine in a bug and I think the best quarter mile time he has gotten is a high 13. He fries the clutch a lot too....Too many revs for the little VW clutch to handle. My brothers Notch has a best of a high 12 and is still on the same clutch!!!!
seagull ·
see I told you will all come to the other side :vader
now for around 4k you get a very good package , also a motor that will last over time and you guys were going to build a big VW donk for how many $ ??????
Subaru is the go for me 😎
Oasis ·
71superbug wrote:hmmmm. i have had the mind working (for once) and have decided that a rotary conversion could be the easiest and cheapest option....seems too cost too much to draw power from a vw engine. and not so reliable.
so.. i have found for sale a 13b N/A motor (carby), vw transmission, adaptor kit, radiator, and stell tubing. was in a bug but they apparently didnt get the permits and now have to strip the car down and do it again if they want to run it?. anyway. this is all going for $1500. wat u guys think? and wat else has to be done in order to install it into my bug. ??
thanks
Anthony :alien
Better ask yourself why they couldn't/didn't get the permits. 13b may be to big legally. 12a may be allowed. I believe they double the capacity of a rotary to compare it to a "normal" engine. Why do you want a rotary anyway... They don't drip enough oil.:thumb
seagull ·
hee hee
boof2332 ·
Yes Boys,
I am a little exited about it all, Jak and Paul are coming along nicely also.
I have done all of it myself so far, although today the microtech system is being wired up and then the motor will be put in permanently. Another friend is going over the wiring of the whole car and then an exhaust and a few loose ends and we are racing....oh, after I weld the fire wall back in.
Anyone know what is the most suitable blow off valve to run???
Keep you posted...
Matt (Boof)
speedster356 ·
Get a BOV from a Saab, cheap and do the required job. Last one I bought was $50 new from Repco. Hose mounted.
71superbug ·
hmm. there is a 13b turbo beetle i think in perth too. im not sure.
but i know for sure that there is a 13b beetle (wether its turbo or not is a different matter). i rang up rotomotion in perth and they had it in there. they make up the adaptor plates .etc for rotary to vwe aswell.
i dont mind high revs and lack of torque. 🙂
but yeah. wat other costs are involved in putting the rotary in.
any info would be greatly appreciated.
thanks
anthony
Brad ·
"Radiator piping, stainless flexible tube front to back(expensive but very easy)...$480"
Be very careful with using stainless for your rad hoses... Wes and are have decided that the Galvanic reaction it caused added significantly to the death of his radiator core and the increase in corrosion of alloy components
Baja Wes ·
perhaps I should reword that in english.
Stainless steel itself is a noble metal, as it it doesn't like to corrode. That simply makes it a fantastic cathode. It therefore tries to use other metals as an anode. This is galvanic corrosion.
There is a thing called a galvanic series. surf the net and you will find it.
The further two metals are apart in the series, the worse they will react with each other in the presence of an electrolite. Stainless steel and aluminium are further apart than steel and aluminium.
So stainless steel radiator pipes will try to corrode your aluminium engine. This will happen if your aluminium engine and stainless pipes have a common earth, and your not using the most expensive radiator fluid you can buy.
I have rubber mounted my stainless radiator pipes from touching anything but the rubber radiator hoses (they don't touch the chassis or body). This should keep the galvanic circuit open and stop the corrosion.
When my last radiator died, it was corroded from salt water on the outside so that was the obvious cause of death. But I did wonder if the stainless pipes were earthing somewhere and adding to the problem, as stainless will also try to corrode normal steel (my radiator) via galvanic corrosion.
boof2332 ·
Thanks for the info....did not know.
Will do the same with the rubber mounting, have to as I have paid for the tubing..
71 super...the same costs as mine will be involved, although I do not know how much body modification will be required. Do not forget, exhaust, air filter, fuel pump, radiator flywheel and clutch and accessories...depending on carb or injection...maybe more.
Also extra bracing on box, and suspension and brake changes.......Its not as simple as dropping in the donk...has to stop and turn. Have you been in alot of rotaries?
Matt
[Edited on 21-9-2004 by boof2332]
71superbug ·
brakes and suspension i know about. i meant how much work in getting the motor into the car and running. i dont believe u have to do any cutting or anything do you?. but probably have to fabricate a cross member to support the engine?
the package comes with a radiator and the "adaptor plate" so to say..so taht is no worry. even if i did need the adaptor made up again its only 300 bucks from a rotary place over here. the system was in and running in a beetle. but was taken out and they are replacing it with a vw motor due to compliance issues. so i imagine the exhaust everything woule be there perhaps. do u need different clutch .etc? and another thing i like about the rotary is the ability to draw power of it very easily. and high rpm .etc is something i also like.
seagull ·
I give up :P
boof2332 ·
71 SUPER>>>>>>GO AND BUY THE ROTARY.
It sounds like most of the stuff is there and you seem pretty keen on the idea....so go and do it.
It will be a great experience and problem solving exercise for you and we will help with any problems you have. As for exact fitting I have an old VW mag form the 90's which has both a rotary in penroses suicide car and an 1800 subi turbo from the RX in a 68 that looks like mine. I will see how easily they fit.
Start thinking about the radiator placement.
If it is not good then sell the motor and parts and you may only loose a couple of bucks.
I really believe the experience will be a good start to your car projects..
Matt
exwrx ·
This has been a very valuable thread, as I have been considering going down the same road for some time (former L bug and wrx owner so it makes some sense !). If I can quantify the amount of work involved a little more precisely, it will give me the confidence to start collecting parts.
There appear to be some projects in progress in NSW and WA, but is anyone aware of Victorian based transplants?
A friend told me that Volksrepairs (also trading as subirepairs !) in vic have done some conversions, so I will soon have a chat to them to verify this, and hopefully also the ins and outs from their perspective.
I, and I am sure others, are watching the progress by trailblazers such as seagull, steve carter, boof2332, speedster356, baja wes etc with great interest !
Any information, progress shots, costings etc greatly appreciated.
Cheers
exwrx
:beer
boof2332 ·
Hey exwrx,
It has been suprisingly straight foward, and the guys on the forum really help with the small things you might not think about.
It doesnt take that long depending on how much you trick your wife/ employment as to time allocation.
Matt
71superbug ·
seagull wrote:I give up :P
thats fair enough, but being my age and on my income. i want to be 100% certain about what i am about to embark on. so i am trying to find out as much information as possible about the fitting it into there. as in any cutting required .etc?
thanks
anthony
boof2332 ·
71 Super,
Looked in the old magazine and saw that the rotary is not wide but looked deep. It was running a stand off boot lid and that looked about it.
Not much cutting....thats the easy part anyway!
Look up ratary vw conversions on google...there will be stuff, and then ask someone who has actually done it.
No matter what, I wouldn't stick a rotor in there, but maybe thats just me being an old fart!!!
I'll always go new tech over old tech if you are serious about performance and "bang for buck".
[Edited on 27-9-2004 by humpty]
71superbug ·
humpty wrote:No matter what, I wouldn't stick a rotor in there, but maybe thats just me being an old fart!!!
I'll always go new tech over old tech if you are serious about performance and "bang for buck".
[Edited on 27-9-2004 by humpty]
hehe. then why did u spend the money making a vw motor quick? :p. but neway. i dont see what people have so bad against the rotor. only thing it lacks is low end torque. but it seems less work to get a rotor in the car than say an ej20t. and power figures from rotors are very impressive. but ya know. everyone has their own view on things.
lugnuts ·
Rotaries are the 2 strokes of cars,yeah they go fast but u have to rev the guts out of them first,and on the street in your ususal roll on skirmishes torque is the winner :blah
boof2332 ·
Too True,
I used to have a type r integra..140kw wow....not really when the power is at 7500 revvs.
How long do you want to keep the car in gear to get the power you want?
Alot of guys are getting great power out of the normally aspirated subi 2.5l....there is an option.
Matt
71superbug ·
a 13b should have more torque than a standard 1600 yeah?. and a lot more power. at the moment its a choice between a stock 1600 and a NA carby 13b. which is why im thinking 13b. eventually. come mid next year. i will do a turbo conversion. wether it be a 13b turbo (EFI) or a ej20t. but for now the choice is 13b or vw 🙂. wat would u guys choose?
boof2332 ·
Why only a 1600 or a 13b????
Are they the same price....dont you already have the 1600 in bits???
Can anyone over there help him......
Bore kit..and machining.....1916cc
engle 110 or whatever for a bit more...
Home port on heads...
Kadrons/dellortos(bit cheaper)
009 and a set of headers....
Could be done quite cheap...
Whats the rotary going to cost once you buy everything else for it.... $2500.
You could do the 1916 for less and to 100kph would spank the rotary...
Matt
Baja Wes ·
I thought we determined that a 13B probably wasn't going to be legal?
It certainly isn't in the eastern states.
You should really talk to an approval engineer or the department of transport in WA before doing anything.
boof2332 ·
Wasn't the reason the guys were selling it, is because they cannot get it approved...?
Matt
[Edited on 2-10-2004 by boof2332]
boof2332 ·
O.k>
GO buy a sharp type 4 upright kit..and maybe one of these....Will be in and running cheap and will have plenty of power for you...
What do you think 71 super??
Then speak to Neil and bolt on a blower.
Matt
carisma ·
hi i have a 71 superbug.bought it a few months ago, had a few problems like starter motor, battery and then wiper motor,i love my dub,,it hauls arse. .it was all done up when i bought it but the guy did his own electrics.but now it is perfect,cheap on fuel.
71superbug ·
what sort of power can u expect from such a 1916?
the 13b should be about 110-130hp.
the reason the choice was 13b or 1600 is because i have been researching into hot vw engines and i always seem to hit the same wall. REDICULOUS amounts of money for any sort of performance and then reliability is low and maintenance high. at least thats what i keep being told. at least the rotary is somewhat newer technology. (these are the opinions of people i have been talking to).
neway.
p+c kit looking at about 500 bucks yeah?,
engle 110 $220 (with cam gear).
machining i would have no idea. (someone please insert price).
already got dual kadrons. so thats not an issue.
home port job. dad should be able to do that.
009 dizzy $???(asked around but no-one said they could get it).
that is what i figure. anyone can help with more accurate prices .etc.
it would be GREAT.
thanks
anthony
gayanne ·
Hey gentlemen,interesting coments ,stick to the subie for less then $7000 you can have it running at 225kw or 300hp thats not STI trick up bits either. That knocks of any type 4 mild 13B.Subies a alot cheaper to set up then you all have suggested.Proof in the pudding Orange racecar JVLRacing
boof2332 ·
Problem is for 71 superbug....he does not have $7000.
I am doing my ej20t for less than $7000 and thats with the vf24 ball bearing turbo and sti cooler.
For the 1916....Barrels $450, machining $250 and $115 for a 009 dizzy, merged headers $300...not thunderbirds..no good.
The short term answer can be a cheaper one (1916)or start buying bits and pieces for the subi....the rotary will cost you as much once finished.
Matt
seagull ·
simon had a heap of gear cheap at the swapmet crank , cam , clutch , there was a pition kit there ( marks may be ) 009 dizzy , heaps of bits low in cost :jesus:jesus:jesus:jesus:jesus:jesus:jesus:jesus:jesus:jesus:jesus
71superbug ·
but this less than 7 grand you are talking about is not including transmission yeah?? and brakes?
71superbug ·
and anyone have any idea of the hp of a 1916 in standard case home port job on heads, engle 110 ??
lugnuts ·
Engine only dude,adds up eh.U probly dont wanna here this but start out on something a little less otherwise what u gunna build up to later and while your taming this beast we could see u on the 6oclock news,but on a lighter note hopefully by the time yuv got the bucks and a few prangs behind u yule be ok :P ps.if this makes no sense at all disregard all of the above :blah
lugnuts ·
From 55.9-67.5 or thereabouts 😉
71superbug ·
exactly my point. its useless stating just engine price. conversion price would be what would really help me out the most 🙂
boof2332 ·
With a 1916 your standard superbig brakes will do fine and so will your standard box.
RIGHT NOW HOW MUCH DO YOU HAVE TO SPEND?????
we can then stop dwelling on the impossible and start looking at what you can actually afford.
Forget the hp figures...a 1916 will go way hard enough for your first step up from a stocker...and you cannot afford anything else anyway....This will give you a good indication of what your car will need if you want to take the next step with a conversion.
Rotary: lots of work...too expensive...maybe not allowed.
Subaru: Too expensive..lots of work..maybe too much power for first project.
What is left?????? bore kit on a 1600...
Matt
Craig Torrens ·
leave your beetle standard and just buy a 2nd hand ford or holden.......................or buy a 1990 Mx5 for about $8k or a series 5 turbo rx7 for $8k.
The hardest cost to work out on all the conversions on this forum is the labour component. We all seem to do the "hard" work and development ourselves and we do not factor in the countless hours spent on the weekends etc creating the actual conversion. If it takes 4 full weekends of work.........we are happy as this means the conversion has only taken 1 month...............but if we had to pay someone $75 per hour for this work then the conversion would have cost $6000 approx in labour.
If you are doing the work yourself then your labour is only costing you the time away from your social life ! or the $$ you could be making working in your business !!
71superbug ·
Craig Torrens wrote:leave your beetle standard and just buy a 2nd hand ford or holden.......................or buy a 1990 Mx5 for about $8k or a series 5 turbo rx7 for $8k.
The hardest cost to work out on all the conversions on this forum is the labour component. We all seem to do the "hard" work and development ourselves and we do not factor in the countless hours spent on the weekends etc creating the actual conversion. If it takes 4 full weekends of work.........we are happy as this means the conversion has only taken 1 month...............but if we had to pay someone $75 per hour for this work then the conversion would have cost $6000 approx in labour.
If you are doing the work yourself then your labour is only costing you the time away from your social life ! or the $$ you could be making working in your business !!
why the F@#k would i buy one of those????
yes labour costs. i would try do everything myself. (with help of friends and family). subaru engine just seem so damn big. to fit in the back of a vw compared to rotary's.
gayanne ·
boof2332 wrote:Problem is for 71 superbug....he does not have $7000.
I am doing my ej20t for less than $7000 and thats with the vf24 ball bearing turbo and sti cooler.
For the 1916....Barrels $450, machining $250 and $115 for a 009 dizzy, merged headers $300...not thunderbirds..no good.
The short term answer can be a cheaper one (1916)or start buying bits and pieces for the subi....the rotary will cost you as much once finished.
Matt [ Hey yes you can do a subie alot cheaper than what i have spent,but spending money on vf24 turbo is a waste of money better to stick with standard turbo and standard subie which has enough hp to scare you.It will still be cheaper then a hypo vw motor.
71superbug ·
hey. i just took the product code off of my distributor (the 10 digit one) and stuck it in google. turns out i already have a bosch 009 dizzy. and the guy who sold it to us claimed it to have "extractors". by this would he mean a merged header?. it sure doesnt sound like your normal beetle does put it that way. fairly loud and different sounding. so for the 1916
that would leave, piston and barell set and machining?
then home port job yeah?
sounds not bad.
Baja Wes ·
please don't take this the wrong way, but if you need google to figure out you have a 009, and you can't really figure out what your exhaust is, then you definitely won't be doing the labor part of an engine conversion yourself.
71superbug ·
knowing what i already have and labour is a completely different thing 🙂.
i google'd the product code even though it had '009' in the code because bosch normally stamp their name somewhere on the things and it didnt have a stamp 🙂.
boof2332 ·
I got the vf24 cheap thats the only reason I got it...And I know the motor will scare the hell out me....I have been in a 12 second bug before....so I am sort of prepared..maybe not!
71 Super....with the headers...if all the 4 pipes meet in the one spot and just go into a large diameter pipe where the exhaust bolts on then they are not merged. Merged headers all arrive in the one spot also but converge in a triangular type collector with a small diameter hole where the exhaust bolts on.... much better power.
Matt
71superbug ·
a series 4 rx7 front cut (includes everything) goes for about $2600. then allow for the money back from selling gearbox, steering, dash, and all the other stuff u dont need (brakes could be sold or used). and it seems much more reasonable than buying a stock 1600 longblock for $2500.
then add about 3 grand for a transmission. will give u a total of about 6500 (including piping .etc) all up minus wateva i sell my vw motor for. this doesnt seem so unreasonable when u think about it. the only other real thing would be brakes. rear discs perhaps. of which one of seagulls ford conversions looks good
so add about $600 was it?. gives u a total of 7100 - my vw motor.
compare this to a ej20t conversion and in my opinion u are much better off. still got 189-200 hp on tap in stock form.
wat u guys have to say about this?
seagull ·
:P
Alex Holzl ·
thats plenty of HP in any VW but watta bout a gearbox coz i know if i had that HP or a rotary id be doin some fat burnouts... will need a mucho gearbox, and Thats exp!
71superbug ·
anyone else got anything to say about what i have written? agree, disagree. hints, tips, constructive criticism? anything. would be helpful
Jenny ·
Cooling it satisfactorily will probably take some figuring out. Rotaries run hot even in the RX7's, and, like I said before, most of the ones I've seen mounted in the rear haven't lasted long.
boof2332 ·
Where did you get $7000.
The ej20 will outperform your rotary in every aspect, from reliability, to taking 4 mates to the beach and being as fast as with just you in it!
I will ask you one more time......how much money do you have right now?
This is the only way we can help you...we need a budget, not a buy and sell and hope financial plan, otherwise you will never see you bug run again.
You obviously love rotary engines, and most of us prefer other options...so get the rotary.
matt
71superbug ·
"Where did you get $7000."
2600 for front cut, 3000 for transmission, 600 for rear discs. = 6200.
then allow for miscellaneous parts like fuel pumps, piping, .etc.
"The ej20 will outperform your rotary in every aspect, from reliability, to taking 4 mates to the beach and being as fast as with just you in it"
turbo rotary cars can be DAMN QUICK. and as far as taking 4 mates to the beach.....it wont happen. back seats are out and custom stereo shelf going in.
rotarys can be realiable. depenind on wether u look after it or not. expected rotor time is about 200,000km before rebuild i believe (been reading many rx7 forums). as for right NOW. i dont have the money for it. as i think i have said. come july i will. unless i get a better job and can start earlier.
and as quickcamper??? said his kombi has 500nm of torque. thats a rotary.
torque isnt that low..
Anthony
71superbug ·
one part of the conversion i have a query about as i am not 100% sure yet is the transmission. will 3 grand be a big enough budget for transmission to handle the power. i EVENTUALLY would like to make around 300rwhp. but that is in the far future. unless my financial situation skyrockets. what sort of transmission would i need to handle the standard power (189-200). and how much would one cost? what is reccomended for further power upgrades .etc
basically. wat kind of transmission will 3 grand buy me??
thanks
anthony
seagull ·
you need to get hold of mark here in perth , see h20 web page , get mark to give you a blast around the block in the notch .
we are now at page 8 on this conversion :jesus
Jenny ·
And it no longer has anything to do with 'need help with EJ20T conversion' !
71superbug ·
no it doesnt but i still see it as constructive. all that has changed is that it is talking in general about engine conversions. which i think some other readers as well as myself might find both interesting and constructive.
anyone have any idea about transmission?
gayanne ·
Hey, it sounds like you are abit confused what you really want.You need to save your cash.You did say 1st up you want a ej20 now a rotary.You might better to stick to your vw motor and gradually do it up more.Mate iva way you go its going to cost,save your self a headache sit back do your homework.JVLRacing
quick camper ·
Either way, save your $, becauce the box will cost $ 4500+, as mine did.
But my mate has standard 13B turbo,standard box in a manx, and runs 12.01,daily driver. Seen at QLD jamboree.
Sorry about the torque fig(+500), but torque figs, are out the window in my bus!:thumb
Tuff choice.
71superbug ·
how much horsepower your box built for though? i would only need one chasing 200hp at flywheel.
boof2332 ·
You can land a rancho box from the usa that will handle all your power for under $2000.
If you are dragracing then there is a big difference in requirements. The kombi box has to take the big hp and then push a heavy brick down the strip...no wonder it cost what it did.
People have run 200 hp through standard single side plate boxes without a problem...they just dont do hard starts.
As a start I still think you should build up your stock motor to a 1916 or similar...we established it would only cost around $1000, and go really well. You can build your suspension and brakes around that and eventually pick your monster...
my 2 cents..
Matt
71superbug ·
i didnt think a tranny to handle 200hp would cost about $4500.
a rancho transmission seems the way to go. it might cost upwards of 3 grand if i decide lsd .etc but thats not necessary. just cool. hehe
if i can get one around 2 grand it would be good. as it would give me a spare grand to put towards different areas in the conversion.
this conversion doesnt seem such a bad idea. i WOULD do up a vw motor. but the bang for your buck value just isnt there.
as said above. i priced up a 1600turbo motor and it almost worked out the same as the 13bt conversion. thats just rediculous.
how did u manage to work out 2 grand landed in aus. (rancho transmission) matt?
if you could U2U me and let me know it woudl be great.
thanks
anthony
boof2332 ·
Rancho type 1 pro street box: swing or irs...super diff, aluminium side cover, welded gears and steel forks...$559. Which is $765 Australian.
Worst Case $500 for shipping(thats heaps).
Then 10%gst and 3% parts tax...TOTAL $1429.45.
Sorry I was $500 out is my estimation.
How did you price up the 1600 turbo at as much as the 13b conversion when I am sure I listed the price and parts needed to bolt on to yours and they were around the $1000 mark...you just have to search a bit.
Anyway good luck with whatever you choose...
Matt
71superbug ·
priced up the way u said it was about 1000 dollars yes. however im not sure if my motor would hold it for a long period of time.
i worked out
1600 Longblock (New heads whole lot). decompressed. $2500
then if i went to blow through carby setup it would cost a fair bit.
ok. so its not quite as much. but in the long run it would work out not to be cost effective. as i would eventually get an engine conversion neway. and there would be no way i could make back all the money i put into a turbo vw motor.
my logic says "ok you want to eventually do a conversion neway so instead of putting that 1000 dollars into turbocharging your motor as is put it towards getting a transmission for the conversion"
that transmission is a lot cheaper than expected. maybe thats cos i was working on 15% gst. (dunno why).
that transmission is to handle 200hp right? but could it handle being thrashed somewhat? eg high rpm launches .etc (burnouts) ??.
im just thinking ahead.
lugnuts ·
Im thinking u should pull back a bit before u get carried away 200-300 horsies are 5yrs away,what about a 6-12 mths timeframe.This is your 1st car right so theres 50/50 chance yule crash it someone else will crash into u or it will be stolen,bottom line is U DONT NEED 200-300 horsies,over 100 dynoed horsies in a beetle will be enough for a silly big smile on your dial.P.S Jak and CT were kicking arse with less than 100 hp and they had silly grins from ear to ear.😉
gayanne ·
I agree with you lugnuts,way to much hp for a young bloke.Jako and CT have done it for a while.Deiter Holzl started with a small vw motor and learned to drive well within the bounds of that1900 motor.JVLRacing
71superbug ·
ill be learning to drive in a cv8 monaro. which granted isnt the quickest car. it is still quick enough. know wat i mean? either that car of a s13 silvia with bigger turbo, front mount forged internals .etc. i will be learning in them as they are the cars my family drive.
and this conversion is within a 12 month timeframe. next july.
anyone have any idea about gear ratios and what they should be with a 13bt rotary?
anthony
boof2332 ·
You are young and will do heaps of conversions to cars, crash cars and blow up engines. All of them will be money pits, and you will keep blowing money on them like we all do because you love cars...
Do what you can afford now and have fun for 12mnths, then look at another project/engine(if the car is still going).
Trust me, when you are young with not alot of cash, 12mnths turns into 3 years, and the car has not taken kindly to just sitting around...you will abandon it. It is hard to stay motivated when you cannot just pay and make things happen straight away due to financial restrictions.
Anyway......the gearing in the rotary would be targeted around its purpose...closer for strip, taller for street/daily. Taller with a turbo. Whatever you desire....probably stock, maybe slightly closer 3rd.
Matt
seagull ·
well said :beer
71superbug ·
i've been researching vw's for about 6 months now on vw conversions. as u may say that i will abandon because of money. that really does depend on every individual. and also. being young. i want a quick car to beat my mates yes?
well. i am smart enough to realise that in the drag scene power to weight ratio reigns supreme. and a beetle is a fairly light car compared to most. and it just happened that i could have one for my first car so i chose it. i didnt have to have a beetle but i wanted one. i love the looks of one (even though my friends say its a poofs car). i have the decent stereo .etc. so the only thing missing is the power. that i am determined to do. i am not one to give up easily. espescially with cars and computers.
i know i will go through with this next year. and ill be sure to remind u guys of what has just been said when i am tearing around in the 13bturbo beetle.
one thing that does annoy me is taking what most teens do. normally vl drivers. HAHAH. and other shitheads that are just in the quest to show that their dick is bigger than everyone elses. even though i would like to show up my mates and bros silvia. that isnt wat is making me do it. its self satisfaction. knowing that i have taken a 33 year old volkswagen that was made slow as shit and turned it into a fairly decent street car.
now THAT is wat is making me do it and my opinion on generalisation of teenagers. sorry matt but i dont appreciate that. its just one topic i am very touchy about..
sorry. this is not a personal attack just stating my views before people brush me off as a stupid 17 year old just wanting to compete in a pissing contest with his mates.
Anthony
lugnuts ·
71superbug wrote:i've been researching vw's for about 6 months now on vw conversions. as u may say that i will abandon because of money. that really does depend on every individual. and also. being young. i want a quick car to beat my mates yes?
well. i am smart enough to realise that in the drag scene power to weight ratio reigns supreme. and a beetle is a fairly light car compared to most. and it just happened that i could have one for my first car so i chose it. i didnt have to have a beetle but i wanted one. i love the looks of one (even though my friends say its a poofs car). i have the decent stereo .etc. so the only thing missing is the power. that i am determined to do. i am not one to give up easily. espescially with cars and computers.
i know i will go through with this next year. and ill be sure to remind u guys of what has just been said when i am tearing around in the 13bturbo beetle.
one thing that does annoy me is taking what most teens do. normally vl drivers. HAHAH. and other shitheads that are just in the quest to show that their dick is bigger than everyone elses. even though i would like to show up my mates and bros silvia. that isnt wat is making me do it. its self satisfaction. knowing that i have taken a 33 year old volkswagen that was made slow as shit and turned it into a fairly decent street car.
now THAT is wat is making me do it and my opinion on generalisation of teenagers. sorry matt but i dont appreciate that. its just one topic i am very touchy about..
sorry. this is not a personal attack just stating my views before people brush me off as a stupid 17 year old just wanting to compete in a pissing contest with his mates.
Anthony
Well said Anthony u show far more sense and maturity at 17 than i did at 27 :blush
1303Steve ·
71superbug wrote:its self satisfaction. knowing that i have taken a 33 year old volkswagen that was made slow as shit and turned it into a fairly decent street car.
Anthony
Hi
Well said, I get a lot of satisfaction from making an old bug hold its own against newer cars, anyone can pay someone to build a car for them, its takes patience and creativity to build a modified bug yourself.
Steve
[Edited on 21-10-2004 by 1302Steve]
pete wood ·
1302Steve wrote:Hi
Well said, I get a lot of satisfaction from making an old bug hold its own against newer cars, anyone can pay someone to build a car for them, its takes patience and creativity to build a modified bug yourself.
Steve
[Edited on 21-10-2004 by 1302Steve]
a stupid attitude to ya wallet and hard headed stubborness help too... 😀
And you'd have to say, that at some level we're all completing in some form of "pissing contest". 😉
Baja Wes ·
71superbug wrote:sorry. this is not a personal attack just stating my views before people brush me off as a stupid 17 year old just wanting to compete in a pissing contest with his mates.
Don't take this the wrong way either, but if you save this post and read it back when you at least mid 20's you'll think you look like another silly 17 yr old asking silly questions on a forum too.
My advice is to listen to people that have been there and done that. No matter how mature (or old) you may be, you can always still learn off the experiences of others.
Having said that alot of people are telling you the EJ20T is the more sensible option and the better motor.
Also, didn't we establish that the 13B turbo wouldn't be legal?
71superbug ·
its not that im not willing too take advice. i am taking advice. hence the going to upgrade suspension, brake .etc at the same time. if i were silly i would only do motor, blow my transmission and crash into a pole cos the brakes wont stop me.
wat i was saying is that i dont like the generalisation of teenagers.
hehe and yes there is somewhat a little bit of a pissing contest. always is. 🙂
and as far as the 13bt being legal. i just rang up the department of planning and infrastructure. and a lady asked the tech department if it would be legal. they said their pretty sure it is but send in an application form neway.
anyway. back to the topic. anyone have any idea about the gear ratios?
gayanne ·
Hooray,Well said BajaWes spot on.JVLRacing
boof2332 ·
I never mentioned anything about generalising about teenagers....simply said that you are young and that you will own loads of cars, as this is your first.
I truly hope you can have your car running as you desire in 12 mnths and we will all help as much as possible..from experience my point was MONEY. Since you decided to do a conversion, how much have you saved towards it?
It is hard enough to save at the best of times, let alone when you have no responsibilities and enjoying life.
I never doubted your motivation...even with unlimited budgets most projects take longer than expected.
My final advice 71 super.....READ and when you have a question from that reading...read some more.
Good Luck,
Matt
71superbug ·
i have been reading and asking questions. thats how this whole thread got here 🙂
i know you have probably heard all this before and will just think :blah but after i finish off the beetle. i plan on keeping it as a kind of weekend warrior. having it for fun .etc and buying a old heap of shit datsun or something to do all other driving in. to work .etc and just use the vw as my "going out" car as such. so when i go places or on a cruise i will take the beetle. that wat not only will i have more fun when i DO drive it. but if something does go wrong i wont be stranded without a car. and if i dont use it every day then there is less chance something will go wrong.
end of the day. a 13bturbo being redlined will be terrible on fuel most likely.
so to combat rising pump prices i will get a shit daily driver that is cheap on fuel. (swift or something).
so does anyone have any idea of ratios taht should be used?
And about the saving money thing. i am coming into a guarenteed 6-7 grand as soon as i hit my 18th birthday (trust fund). which is next july. that 6-7 grand should take a BIG chunk out of the conversion process.
*and also, when u say give us a budget and we can help u out, as u say yourself. ihavent got the money now. i have about 9 months to plan this down to every detail so that when i goto do it i will know EXACTLY what is to be done. thus not as many stuff ups .etc. so i am asking questions now.*
Anthony
[Edited on 22-10-2004 by 71superbug]
boof2332 ·
If the money is gauranteed then that was my only concern.
With ratios...you need to be really specific about what the car is going to be used for.
Personally..with a turbo rotary...use standard ratios.
I am using stock with the wrx motor. Make sure its a 3.88 single side plate....stronger and taller.
matt
71superbug ·
yes the money is guarenteed. that is the only reason i am planning so far ahead. i would more than likely be using a rancho pro street transmission. so i assume they would use the single side plate box. the gear ratios of the car the motor would be coming out of are
1st: 3.483
2nd:2.015
3rd:1.391
4th:1
5th:.762/.719 (depending on series IV or V)
Final Drive:4.1
that is what the ratios are.
not sure what the standard vw ones are.
but based on those do you have any idea as to what vw transmission should use?
Anthony
boof2332 ·
Go to this site and read all of it a couple of times....
see performance summaries and gearbox calculator.
Didnt the guy with the fast kombi say he has a mate with a 13b turbo in a manx...with a stock box running 12's. Its in this thread!
Matt
71superbug ·
hmm. im chaing the dyno chart of a stock 13bturbo. (series 4 preferably). so that i can whack the engine info into the exceldyno thing.
got my car specs, tyre/wheel specs, just need engine graph so that i can punch in the power at diff rpm's. then i can play around with the gear ratios to see which one gives the best median.
anyone have one of these or know anywhere i can get one?
Anthony
71superbug ·
Bump.
come on, someone must have a copy of one of these?
or at least know a site where i can find one?
Anthony
boof2332 ·
Most do not use dyno charts to dictate gear ratios..its not that complex...run a stock ratio box.
For example...was building a 2332, from experience third can be a little too far from second, so stock 1st and 2nd..shorten 3rd and leave 4th for all the motorways in sydney we use daily.
Now turbo 2.0 who cares if third is tall....have gone stock as have the others doing it with me!
Now go and get the angle grinder, put on a fine cutting wheel, and mutilate you super to take a radiator, plumbing, surge tanks, fill pots, intercooler, exhausts etc.
HAVE YOU CONFIRMED WHETHER YOU CAN LEGALLY PUT IN A 13B TURBO.....didnt Wes prove too big in capacity!
Matt
71superbug ·
i wanted the dyno chart because then i could plot the engine info at various rpm's in that excel spreadsheet that is up on wes's site. it will HELPwith finding the best ratios. and with estimations of what the car should run. what wheel/tyre size is best. when to shift .etc.
in the process of confirming for sure. i believe its legal in adeilade yeah?
but before i can find out. they said send in this form to the department of planning and infrastructure about what modifications have been carried out to steering, brakes, wheels, suspension, motor .etc. only......i havent done the modification yet.
so i cant fill it out. what am i to do!!!!!
mnsKmobi ·
71superbug wrote:but before i can find out. they said send in this form to the department of planning and infrastructure about what modifications have been carried out to steering, brakes, wheels, suspension, motor .etc. only......i havent done the modification yet.
so i cant fill it out. what am i to do!!!!!
It would be a bit rich if they only told you what was legit after you'd done the mods! They must have a set of regulations that they themselves use to judge the legality of the modifications. Your task, should you choose to accept it, is to get hold of a copy of those regulations.
71superbug ·
you would think that they could tell me the basic of wether or not a 13bt is legal in a vw.
but NOOOOO. they said i have to fill out an application form..
AND ITS 15 PAGES OF QUESTIONS.
i think i will ring and try talk to another lady 🙂
or maybe go down there and demand satisfaction..
seagull or any other perth based guys had any experience with the DPI and their regulations?
Anthony
1303Steve ·
Hi
In NSW we have engineering signatories, we can talk to these guys usaully for free about plannned mods, they are the guys who put their butt on the line if something goes wrong. Do the WA transport people have a website that you can look at for more info? As has been said before, I dont think that you find that you can fit anything bigger than 2610 cc normally aspirated or 2175 cc turbo or supercharged in a 870 kg bug.
that is only part of the article as you have to pay for the rest. but it clearly states that it is a turbo 13b 1968 bug in perth 🙂
so i am ASSUMING by the license plates. that it is street legal also.
but if that does fall through and they have changed it.
maybe 12a or even back to ej20t.
but 13bturbo preferred.
anyone seen this bug in perth?
Anthony
1303Steve ·
Hi
That Beetle did have a turbo rotary, but the point is that I beleve all states will soon have federal laws very similar to the ones NSW& Queensland use.
hmmm. yeah. it is in perth. i am just hoping that they dont change it before july next year (projected completion time)
i have decided to leave the car off the road. and drive the 4wd ute. i am going to do this so that i can start work on the conversion IMMEDIATELY. by next july i wish to have all the cutting, maybe a radiator install done, suspension, brakes chassis strengthening done. so that come next july when i get my bulk some. i am able to just purchase a gearbox and engine and drop it all straight in.
so these are the things i will be doing in the meantime
everything other than fitting the engine and tranny in.
i have a query about the radiator install however. would u need to use a diff radiator depending on what motor you use or is there a so called "universal fit" radiator that can be used? (am going to use the spare wheel well in bonnet).
???
Anthony
boof2332 ·
Speak to Jak, he has just done his. I think there are pics on the forum.
Use any radiator that fits..has to be sealed unit and filled from the rear.
I used and Alfa 33, fits 2x 10inch thermos perfectly behind it.
Matt
Baja Wes ·
71superbug wrote:so i am ASSUMING by the license plates. that it is street legal also.
That's not a very good assumption. Many people illegally modify cars and continue paying the registration.
71superbug ·
i was thinking that. but if it is in car shows .etc. i imagine the police may find out and shit??
either way. im gonna fill out the form that is on the western australian department of planning and infrastructure website.
i think someone posted the link a few posts back. im gonna fill it out completely (so if anyone has any reccomendations of what should be done to the car under the sections specified it would be good to know) and send it in. then if they approve it with 13bt then i have a plan to work to. i will have everything written down. and if they dont approve. then i send same mods in with ej20t or 12a turbo.
and either way i will have a plan to work too.
wat u guys think??
Anthony
1303Steve ·
Hi
If you cant run a 13b turbo a 12a wont be legal either.
Steve
71superbug ·
why not? a 12a is a smaller motor yeah??
71superbug ·
anyone know what a good handling setup would be? (suspension, steering, .etc) ??
humpty ·
Go and see Kurt at VDub Repairs and Spares in Freo..... He stuck a supercharged WBX in his LBug. VERY neat job too! Have a look at how he has done his radiator and plumbing....Should get you started and legal too! His car is completely legal with 300mm front rotors and and wilwood calipers and falcon brakes on the rear with 18" rims.
71superbug ·
very cool, do u know if he works every day??
i will TRY get down there and have a look today. not sure if i will be able too though.
looks like a schmick car.
i need to know some specs on my 71super to fill in this form..
here goes,
is it a coupe or a sedan? (i realise 2 door generally is coupe but things might be diff for germans) ???
how am i to know the month/year of manufacture??
Where is the Original Vin/Chassis number located and wat does it look like?
Original engine number, how am i to know this if its been rebuilt once??
'manufacturers wheel track' , front and rear???
Original manufacturers rim width??
Anthony
1303Steve ·
how am i to know the month/year of manufacture??
Alloy plate near the front hood lock
Where is the Original Vin/Chassis number located and wat does it look like?
As above and on top of the chassis near the battery
Original engine number, how am i to know this if its been rebuilt once??
Just use the one that in it now
'manufacturers wheel track' , front and rear???
1391 mm Front, 1362 rear.
Original manufacturers rim width??
4 1/2 x 15
A 12a is 2.4 litres so its still to big in turbo.
Steve
gayanne ·
humpty wrote:Go and see Kurt at VDub Repairs and Spares in Freo..... He stuck a supercharged WBX in his LBug. VERY neat job too! Have a look at how he has done his radiator and plumbing....Should get you started and legal too! His car is completely legal with 300mm front rotors and and wilwood calipers and falcon brakes on the rear with 18" rims.
[ Thats a top job very nice to see JVLRacing
71superbug ·
went and saw it today. very tidy install i must admit..
he said get in contact with him if i need any advice/info on the conversion. and he can get his car up on the carstand and show me the piping .etc and give advice. very helpful and decent bloke,
was half expecting him to be a wanker like the guys at veedub centre.
😀
Anthony
humpty ·
I told you Kurt is a great guy....I've known him for years, he's sponsored my bug in every motorsport event I've entered, helped me out with parts and space to work on my cars and looks after my friends when I send'em his way (I do all my own work by the way). John @ Veedub Centre is reasonable bloke, and he's put a lot into the VW scene here in Perth, but I trust Kurt more than any VW guy here. He's not the cheapest guy in town, but at least I know he has passion for what he does.
Just a word of warning for the young and new to the car business here in Perth....
DON"T EVER KNOCK SOME GUY IF YOU DON'T LIKE'M.
It just might come back at you someday....
I don't deal with a lot of VDub shops in Perth, but the ones I do deal with, have been very good to me for over 20 years.
71superbug ·
is there any suspension we can get for the dub here in aussie that can match that of the german stuff on sites such as
Oops, sorry - thought you were talking about their brace...
[Edited on 1-11-2004 by Jenny]
71superbug ·
nah i wasnt talking about the brace, although the kafer brace seems a great idea also.
but i was actually talking about the coilovers.
anyone have any idea?
i will stay away from importing parts if possible.
but if there is nothing to match then i guess i have no choice.
Anthony
humpty ·
Again, go and have a good close look at Kurts bug....He made his own fron struts using GOLF coils and adjustable inserts, I believe and the rear is EZ...The rest can be made EZ enough. If your gonna fit up a new drive line, the suspension will be a snap....
The way he did his is way cheaper than buy up import parts and is just as good. Ofcourse the proof will be on the race track when he finally gets out there with me, but I have been in this car on the road and it feels sweet to me. Not sure what it's like with those 'pimped out' chrome 18"s he's got now!!!!
Which is what Jak and Blue74l are running, and similar to what Steve C has/ had on the yellow bug.
I admit I made my own, mostly because I wanted to learn- but mine are untested and may need changes to the springs etc.
The V-Force ones are well road/ track tested
Cheers
Jeremy
71superbug ·
thanks jeza. they are the sort of thing i was looking for.
would these also allow me to run a wider wheel up front??
i am currently running a 185 tyres all round but hope to run 205 up front and 235 at back. what sort of mods would be needed to run these?
seagull ·
are you ready for a drag yet !
71superbug ·
is who ready for a drag yet?
wat would be needed to run 205 up front and 235 rear?
or would there be a better combo?
Anthony
boof2332 ·
Seagull....
Give me 4 weeks and I will meet you in the desert for that drag we spoke about!
P.S. Do not forget the dirt bike!
Matt
71superbug ·
This is my competition around the household. what you guys reckon? well this aswell as a new cv8 monaro. Has bigger turbo, Front mount intercooler, rebuilt motor. I think it ran a 14.1 on 8psi. brother sometimes runs 14 psi though. (its an auto)
[Edited on 8-11-2004 by 71superbug]
Jeza ·
71superbug wrote:is who ready for a drag yet?
wat would be needed to run 205 up front and 235 rear?
or would there be a better combo?
Anthony
A lot depends on your chosen wheels offset, and what guards you choose to run. Offset is best measured by another term (often confused) called backspace. This is the distance from the mounting surface to the most inner part of the rim, ie the bit that will conflict with the suspension. For Supers I believe the limit under standard guards is 7 inches on the front, but best to check with what others have done.
It appears that your wheel width is goverened by rules in various parts of Australia- so best you check with your local people. Hot rod clubs are great source of info for this. Or kit car / scratch build car clubs.
Tyre selection I reckon then depends on your power output.
CT runs 185's and 205's on his oval and he races it with a 1916cc motor. Bugs are really light at the front so you want to get a tyre that will warm up and be suitable with very little weight on it. Tyre width and profiles also affect the way the car will handle, ie understeer / oversteer etc.
So no short answer really, just more things to think about and research, unless you just want to look good then I'd say go for 17s and phat is good.
Have fun
Cheers
Jeremy
71superbug ·
i would want to fit under stock guards if possible.