Hot Bug ride wanted/Bug 1/4 mile times wanted

Now this is a strange request and ca only apply to the Bug-ers in Perth

My son is thinkin of throwin his hard earned cash at a Toyota Supra turbo. He has watched Fast and Furious too many times. I have tried to encourage him to try to think of a hot bug and yet he is really full of cliches of 'they cant handle well or they are slow or need to be so hotted up they are opeless on the road.

I would love to pay someone in Perth with a hot bug to take my son for a spin so that his decision is at least based on experience........any takers????

You have my permission to give him a lesson in Vdub 101!!
Choppa maybe your WRX powered Notchback????

[Edited on 23-5-2004 by preacherman]

fly him to Sydney....................................and pack some extra underwear for him :thumb:thumb

This is a serious suggestion - Give Kurt at Vee Dub Repairs and Spares in Fremantle (9430 4180) a call.

He drives a fully engineered 1975 L bug with a 2.1 wasserboxer, Eaton supercharger, fuel injection with Wolf 3D computer, 4 wheel big brakes and 17" rims. Its a work of art and a testament to his engineering abilities - I believe it has around 250hp or thereabouts..........

He is also a nice bloke to boot, so give him the story and you never know....

Short of that, try Humpty (he is on the forum), he has a nice bug with a 1776 and twin dellorto's, plus his brother has a notch with a subaru RS turbo in it...

I sent an u2u to Doug when I maent to post on this topic...

Thanks to Doug for a great suggestion re Kurt. I will call him. I know Simon and Mark so will call them too.

I really want to at least broaden my son's mind and clear the prejudice that is rife in motoring circles. Dave Becker emailed me aas i asked about his Turbo bug featured in Volkswagen Australia a few years ago. His car did high 12's for the1/4 mile ...You wuld have to throw some so called 'supercars' from a plane to get that figure...and Dave got 30mpg as well!!!

I just want to broaden his mind...will kepp you guys posted on outcome

bump

By the way Craig your offer may well be taken up as i am moving over to Sydney!!! I will bring the undies for him!! (my youngest son is still smiling at the post). He too has been influenced by the 'Fast and Furious' mentality that if it's Jap it goes but they don't hear the kind of figures used for the cost of the bolt on bits.

OOps sorry Dave..his turbo bug did the 1/4 in 13.5's I got the times wrong. The 12.38 time was done by Peter Richards as recorded in issue 3 of Volkswagen Australia in a Stan Pobjoy ad and using one of his motor.it was powered by a 1916 methanol fuel injected motor.

Has these times been bettered by a road reg'd bug????

Craig Paton's car did 12.85(?) in full street regd trim

Leigh Harris did 12.9(?) at the VW Nats a month or so ago. Very streetable apparantly.

man u should send him to Northam, i got one here that prolly does mid 30's.... lol 😉

no offence, and I know I'm gonna get flamed for this, but he's probably better off with the Supra. 🙂

or a Skyline, or a 200sx, 180sx,series 6 RX7 or a ......................well anything Jap with a turbo !!

Well for me there's nothing like a weber powered air cooled flat 4!!
My quickest 1/4 mile time street with muffler is 12.65@103.95mph and with stinger is 12.58@104.34mph.
Unfortunately the younger generation seem to like those things.

Cheers Craig P.

Yep, all motor!!

Sorry I got the times arse-about :jesus

Well SECOH that comment came from left field. I know it comes to a matter of preference but the cost of rebuilding these new Jap cars, their complexity and, worst of all, the myth that performance cars nowadays must mean hi-tech, hi cost wizardry made in Japan gets me riled.

I would like to know though in what way would he be better off. These vehicles are soo complex that he would never be able to repair it himself and the throw away mentality to the components never ceases to amaze me. I guess what I want is for him to have an informed choice and then if he still opts for one and has to keep up with the costs of maintenance I will not forget to remind him that DAD KNOWS BEST...sometimes!!!

If his final decision is still a Japanese import, tell him to seek for a good one... You never know how the previous owner drives it, it's different to a normal second hand car I guess, cause these are performance cars, which people races in or play around with. I guess no one will ever buy a Toyota Supra and drive at 80km/h daily & play safe ... also with its age ... all the technology put into these machines, it's hard to guarantee it won't break down, my friends own these kind of cars, and they are having trouble with air-condition and some other electric bits. As we all know VWs are simple, so we can do most ourselves... aircooled... not a lot of electrics 🙂

P.S: ask your son to do a research on how much a tank of petrol cost & also how long it will last him! Especially Turbo~ if your son have the money to spend then there shouldn't be a problem.

I always see people in Skylines, Soarers, Supra's having "For Sale" stuck on their wind screens... I wonder is it too expensive to maintain one, or the parts always breaks down .. lol~ 7 out of 10 I guess ~! haha...

VW forever~!

Cheers~

Don.

Hi

There was a Skyline at the VW Nats with a big front mount intercooler etc and he was beaten by many VWs. Anyone can buy a hot jap car, but it takes great dedication & skill to make VW go.

Leighs 12.9 was not bettered during racing because the car wanted to go quicker in the cool of the evening so Leigh dialled a heap of boost out of it and was backing off to avoid breaking out.

1302Steve

Hehe if he wants a supra its not that bad 🙂 They're nice cars

It'd be cool if he could be convinced to get a dub. I think there are probably as many old dubs for sale than supras or skylines.

They both have their pros and cons. Modern cars are complex, but so is a dub with a turbo and EFI 🙂

Hey 56astro

don't apologise for the times. The 12.82 was the last time I won the Gene Berg trophy in '98 I think. My quickest times were set at the Jamboree in '99 in which we didn't race for the Berg trophy. I can't believe I haven't raced since then.

Cheers Craig P.

it's the insurance that will make the decision of jap import or not. If your son is young he will be lucky to be able to insure a Supra, let alone pay the cost of the insurance.

And don't get caught up in the cost of hotting up a jap car. For the price of a high HP VW motor you can buy a high HP jap car!

My younger brother is a bit of a hoon, likes to thrash cars. A vw wouldn't suit him as he would break it in no time. He bought a Silvia, wound the boost to 15psi and had one very strong, very fast, very cheap and quite economic play car. Even if he blew the engine and gearbox a half cut to replace it would've been very cheap. The jap imports are very good value for money, it's only the insurance on them that can be the killer.

Preacherman, it is a lot to do with personal preference, and you have asked my opinion, so here it is : 🙂

Before I go on though, remember that I am building a VW racer for a project, and in addition I own an R32 Skyline turbo jap import too, and have owned all sorts of "performance" and non performance cars, both hi and lo tech, and imported and local.

[opinion]

So... If your son wants to just jump into a car and go fast, then a jap import is a very easy way of doing it. Some forgien short-arse with too much money has usually tipped bucketfuls into it before getting bored with it and sending it down under.

They are not so complicated once you take the time to understand what all the gizmos do, but compared to a '60's car of any form, and especially a VW, sure it looks complicated considering the VW has less moving parts than a coconut. Even 70's stuff looks complicated in comparison.

To get a VW to go fast and handle any better than a bowling ball takes a fair bit of money and a lot of time and dedication, which the average young bloke doesnt have.

Jap imports are expensive to insure for anyone under 200 years of age, but if it's to be a race car only and not road registered for example, then it's not really a factor and you can get a very good example supra/200SX/180SX/skyline for under $5k and all you need to race it is a fire extinguisher.

if he wants it as a road car then he's better off with anything locally delivered than a jap import. even the generic commode goes hard, even if it handles like a dog on lino.

To do a stock rebuild on a 1600TP will cost me about $1500 if I do all the labour myself and get 40kw out of it. yay. I can go buy a 200kw motor in a front cut (which includes everything you need, wiring the lot) for $2k... sure they are exxy to rebuild, but who rebuilds them when a replacement is so cheap!!

another thing is while complicated, modern cars generally have less bonnet-open time than cars even 10 years older than they are.

Technology is not a substitute for performance, it is simply a more efficient way of obtaining it. the old way of doing things means a motor that is difficult to drive unless its at full noise all the time, whereas a motor that has a lot of minute control in it's operation gives the same power but in a much more civilised manner.

I guess what it boils down to is what does your son want, and what does he want to use it for?
If he's a young bloke it's the one time in his life where he gets to establish his friends and niche in the world, and it can be hard to do if the biggest aspect of his identity is considered to be lame and/or unfashionable 😀


[/opinion]

This is my opinion, it is offered only beacuse it was asked for, so you can take it or leave it, but there it is. 🙂

SECOH appreciate your opinion mate and am grateful it is based on your own experience. You do make sense. I guess I have wanted my son to try the road less travelled and to expand his mnd before he deflates his pocket.

Ultimately he will make his own choice I guess the rubbishing of well sorted beetle without taking the time to enquire into the high level of thought and engineering that's gone into them is so annoying.

for sure.... not everyone appreciates individuality and engineering cleverness unfortunately. I can't stand the sameness of the car scene which is why I'm playing with the VW at all.

preacherman- right on brother. i'm with you. trash the jap shit and get him into something different and original. t
he jap stuff goes, dont get me wrong, but i think u got the right idea by trying to show your son how to be a leader instead of a follower. their is just some stupid type of pack mentality intwound with this generation and their cars, if i had a dollar for everytime i've had some young fella come into my work and buy a light bulb and then ask me how to replace it then i'd be on the a-list shaggin one delicious paris hilton. these kids usually have no idea how their car works and how to mend it, as their only interest is that is looks good, goes 'whooooossssh' when they take their trendy shoes off the pedal and it goes 'boof boof' when the volume is amped up. the materialistic and vain attitude shown by some people just really angers me sometimes and while i'm the first to generalise and bag them i'm also the fist to admit that their is some cool dudes too but preacherman, right on, show your son the way of auutomotive enlightment!!
ps- i currently ahve a friend raving on how he's going to turbo charge his 97 x3 hyundai excel to be different. of course i'm waiting to watch it go 'bang' when it gives up the ghost...cant wait!!!!!

Peter Page ran a 12.4 @ 106 mph in Rod Richardson's streeter earlier this year @ Willowbank.

Cheers Craig P.

Well I love VW's, I have 5 and I'm currently building a buggy................................................but If I had a teenager I would not rule out a Jap import


WHY ?
1. ABS or generally better braking systems
2. Airbags
3. Crumple Zones
4. Airconditioning
5. 4WS as well as AWD options
6. Countless electric options e.g. power windows,power mirrors, power seats, power sunroofs .....blah blah blah
7. Reliability
8. High HP for cheap $$
9. Better Handling
10. and generally a safer vehicle.

Sorry guys.


Although my children will probably have a "handmedown" VW beetle !!!!

For the teenager isn't simply a matter of Peer pressure vs style? I see this all the time and often have to defend the fact that I drive an Alfa as daily Fanger and the Beetle on Double point Weekends or whenever I feel like it. Not at the moment because it is being resprayed.

The modern Jap cars are solid reliable and home brand Vanilla, the Cops are out to pull all the young lads who drive them in and defect them at the first oportunity they can. A fact as I heard this from a Magistrate and several Coppers too.

I would probably also let you Son buy hios own car and maintain it himself, he will learn much more this way than if you help him out financially. He will learn the value and appreciate what he has more than if it is given to him on a platter. My father did this for me, it was a tough lesson but well worth it now with the benefit of hindsight. Learning to keepand maintain a little Jap or Clapped out heap makes youreally appreciate fine engineering when you get it later on.

Another observation, most modern cars go fast in a straight line but give them a corner and watch out. The older cars too for that matter. Good suspension, steering and brakes will save you more than a fast engine will. My Alfa leaves all these fancy fast Jap monster whoosh cars fro dead on corners, winding roads and hills but it wont do them in a drag race. Horses for courses, I prefer to go fast around corners and maintain a higher average speed than have a great initial speed of the lights.

There is no such thing as a safe care, only in relative terms. The answer is to drive safely and teach your son about how to avoid potential problems before they happen. Teach him how to control a power slide, how to get out of an understeer or oversteer situation, what to do when the brakes fail, ho wto drive across town without a clutch. Most of these skills aren't taught anymore and seem to be lost with younger drivers I speak too.

These are just a point of view and some food for though or to be commented upon.

Bootman wrote:My Alfa leaves all these fancy fast Jap monster whoosh cars fro dead on corners, winding roads and hills but it wont do them in a drag race.

Having driven both Alfas and whoosh jap cars, I really doubt the above comment is true if you had a good driver in each car.

Here's something to think about. My friend bought a cheap R32 GTR skyline. It has 375HP at the wheels, runs 11's down the quarter, corners like it's on rails, drives 50km to work and back every day, and has a huge list of cool creature comforts. The whole car probably cost less the the vw engines powering these 12 second VW's.

Yes I agree.

generalising about jap cars not going around corners is like generalising that they have no guts under 5000 RPM (which is only half true! 🙂)

I think the great thing about modern jap cars is that you can drag them, take them down to the track and drive it home on the highway. There was an 11 sec WRX STi at the VW Nats drags. I saw him driving home on the street. How many 11 sec bugs are there that can do this? Short of costing an absolute bundle.

If I just wanted to go fast for cheap I wouldnt be into VW's 😀 There are other reasons 🙂 Every 2nd Habib has a hotted up WRX. There is a skyline on every street corner these days - Most late model jap cars (especially grey imports) seem pretty much the same to me. GTRs, GTiR's, Supras, Silvias, WRX's seem pretty similar. This is why i like VW's, a Beetle is a beetle, but a skyline is just another jap car.

PS. I really like old jap cars, which I think are a lot more individual, like Z's, old skylines, dattos, celicas etc.

[Edited on 24-5-2004 by Che Castro]

Ummmmm, I'd be VERY suprised if you could build a GTR to run 11's (keep in miind that a GTR doing 11's is more than just raising the boost) for less than you could build a high HP vw motor.

Please keep in mind that even a cheap stock standard R32 GTR still pulls around $40,000 - $45,000 (at least over here in WA any ways) and that would build you one hell of a vw motor.

I dont want to enter the argument, I just enjoy correctig Wes !! (just jokes wes I see your point). Horses for courses and all that.

my friends GTR was imported with 291HP at the wheels. He put a Power FC or similar on the ECU and had it dyno tuned to 375HP at the wheels. It ran 11.99 when it had 291HP, exactly as he imported it.

Fully complied and registered R32 GTR's go for $20-25K in QLD.

I reckon for a 200HP VW motor that will get you down the 1/4 in 11's/12's, you'd be approaching the $20K mark I reckon. Jack Raby even said on shoptalkforums that a 200HP type 4 price is unlimited, but would cost at least US$10K, probably closer to US$15K.

I think the high powered VW's are great, but we should be under no illusion that they are affordable enough for a teenagers first car.

Heck if the kid wants afforadable and fast then buy him a motorcycle.

i use to work for nissan, gettin parts for import sh@tboxes is a nightmare. well NEW parts anyway. at my old dealership this was the procedure-
1. tryhard tosser walks through the front doors of dealership, us interpreters look up and make a bet-> bet he's got an import.
2. unlucky interpreter goes and serves tosser. BINGO.as the interpreter turns back around he rolls his eyes back at us, he's got an import.
3. interpreter loads up the import discs that nissan provides. once upon a time these were never around as nissan said "we didnt bring the stupid car into the country so f@ck them, its their own fault". interpreter then attempts to understand japanese as the discs are all straight from the motherland.
4. interpreter finally finds the part in the mire of squiggles and confusing menus. 'oh dear' or otherwise 'haha!'....there are several options on the part, but as all the text is in japanese u cant figure out which one is the right one!!! a guess it is!!!
5. find the part is ex japan, 2 to 4 week wait, and costs and absolute bucketload of the folding stuff.
6. inform the tosser customer that you think the part comes to $x and ex japan, and advise them that you may be wrong also but its not your fault and that he has to pay upfront for the part and he owns it even if its wrong cos we cant return import parts, even if its supposed to be a strut and comes in a hose.
7. part comes in from japan, is wrong and we tell the customer sorry but try again. more money please...........

and that is a large part of my bias attitude towards thes plastic junkboxes. i shouldnt generalise and call these guys tossers but i've had a few already today and now i'm pissed off at them........

Baja Wes wrote:Heck if the kid wants afforadable and fast then buy him a motorcycle.

I'd definitely agree with the above, but I hope he can ride because theirs plently of people who can't drive, use indicators etc.

ps- despite what many people think they know about new cars, not all parts are the same, a lot of things change on the same model cars......this too make sourcing second hand import parts a pain in the ass for the owner of the vehicle........

Moral of the story, don't buy parts from Nissan.

There are quite a few workshops around that specialise in jap import cars, and have good stocks of 2nd hand jap import parts for very reasonable prices.

yeah they're normally the best place to go if you got one but even then they can get stumped easily enough then ~dungdung~ car is off road for a while while they try to figure out why the second hand tps sensor doesnt work on this vehicle. its then they contact nissan to find out (as i said) the parts change due to chassis number or date and they'll have to keep searching around for another one.....i've got no first hand experience with these guys in the costing department though, i'd imagine they'd sting ya.....
it's a lot of trouble you can easily steer clear of by owning a vehicle that is made for the australian domestic market!! and another clue for ya's-->> think gaskets. how many have you changed on your car before?? now imagine how many a whiz bang import has-> usually millions->> between sensors and manifolds and what have you, and dont mention head gaskets!!! these things you cant buy second hand...............or make!!!

I have quite a few friends with imports, and my car runs an import motor. Most Australian gaskets fit my engine. By the time a jap import motor needs a head gasket you simply buy another jap import motor.

My brother has had a diff and a gearbox replaced in an overpowered Silvia which gets abused (drifting and burn-outs etc). The workshop replaced the diff with another for about $150, and the gearbox another time for less than $500. parts and labour. You'd have trouble getting that stuff done on a VW by a workshop for those prices.

if you wanna have a bit of attrition and destroy engine and box and diff one after another and outlay the dollars then go for it, but i'm sure for someone after their first car and others looking for something a little more reliable, serviceable and cheap then its a bit of a nightmare. if you got the dollars to burn then go for it!!! i'm just saying keep away from these things if you want reasonably hassle free motoring.........as opposed to buying an import with a 1 month warranty and watching it go bang 32 days later.....oh crap! head gasket!? another engine please.......

Buy him a 1980-88 Mitsubishi colt. They are reliable, Ok to drive, but crap. When he prangs it nobody will care, and it won't have cost the world.

If he write-offs a VW, it's a piece of history off the road.
If he write-offs a Colt, it's a piece of crap off the road.

And don't tell me he won't bingle it. Who here didn't bingle there first car, fail to check the oil, or do something else they regreted to it?

mitsubishi colt with gt stripes ought to get him some street cred eh???

Nah nah - get him the special model - the 'Colt 45' 🙂

with or wothout stripes??? hahahaha😉😀 "if you cant impress use duress" hahaha

I reckon a Matt Black hammered (low) Colt would have allot of street cred.

Get some cheap chromies from an importers.... mate he'd be set!

~air fooled~ wrote:if you wanna have a bit of attrition and destroy engine and box and diff one after another and outlay the dollars then go for it,

The car mentioned was being completed abused, had way too much HP and that is why it broke. The engine didn't.

If you thrash even a stock VW it will break more easily. If you thrash a 12second VW, expect it to live a very short life indeed.

Don't joke about hotting up a Colt guys, someone near me has already done it. 3" dump pipe, mags, lowered susp, spotties, and it's still as slow. :puke

Get him a Commodore, they're dispensable, and do good burnouts which is what a young fellow wants.

its ryan here borrowing danielle's nick, and I havent read all of the thread but I'm giving my opinion anyways.

if its his first car, he doesnt want a supra, or any turbo japanese rocket for that matter, not because they are complicated (which isnt really an issue as they dont often die) but because that m,uch power, even non-turbo will make a new driver have an accident.

and I'm not going to suggest he buy/build an old bug either, or any aircooled VW. they are so basic and low tech, to get it as fast as a new small car, it takes alot of effort.

I suggest maybe he buy a 80s/90s japanese car, as they are cheap, reliable, have a few more creature comforst a beetle wont have, and are alot easier to find in decent condition.

just for the record, its very silly assuming that because a car has alot of high tech gadgets in it that they will break down. remember they have to be built to last out the 100,000km/3 year warranty, with minimal maintenance. I wokr at a toyota dealer, and it is unusual to see a major issue with anything new, even when it only gets oil and filter changed every 10,000km

sorry for babbling a bit.

workshop across the road from work built a colt that does 12sec quarters 🙂 (still looks like crap)

300zx :P

What can I say but I am overwhelmed by the input from all. Thanks for the comments and especially for contrubuting without feeling the need to resort to flaming each other.

On a personal note...in order to get into Vdubs Split Screens (with the hope a 23 window needing resto would pass my way), I sold my Alfa Romeo 1750 GTV. It was one of the earliest RHD 1750's built and hence in the country...chassis number 432! mine had the 2 litre motor. My son loved the Alfa. He loved the sound and the precision feel of it around the corners and the seemingly endless torque. The quality of the gearbox and ratio's is something that can only be experienced and dreamt about by those who have had the pleasure to drive a good and sorted 105 series.

I guess the Alfa would be trashed by a modern jap sports car but there was that undefinable thing, engineering, feel of the road thru the steering wheel, torque at low revs, engine induction sounds, raspy exhaust....these could not be replicated by many moderns.....and even he knew that. He begged me not to sell the Alfa and sighed on the day it went.

I guess I am hoping that sometime he will come back to owning a vehicle that gave driving pleasure without the need to go flat out all the time to get just the thrill of speed.
Driving pleasure is more than speed. My past ownership of beetles gave me that kind of pleasure. Taking a favourite corner in a precise and as quick a way without losing control and feeling the chassis and motor work even though the ultimate speed was not that high.

Two of the lovliest cars I have driven were a Fiat Bambino....every journey was an adventure with go-kart precision, and a Borgward isabella...Precise steering and great engineering...

Long live you guys that restore your vdubs and improve them and keep them going for sons like mine to one day discover and drive!!!

bump

who needs a 300hp jap rocket when you can buy a 50hp beetle that feels like you're driving a porsche? 🙂 it is all a matter of his tastes i guess. a year ago I wouldn't go near a beetle, i thought they were stupid and slow... then my dad took me for a blast in a little 1600cc superbug and i fell in love, so you never know

I have to agree with your almost final word... It's the quality of the driving experience, not the speed you travel at. It's what it feels like in your hands and your butt that matters. It's a bonus when your car also has character, as old VWs have. My two favourite cars to drive so far have been my old Peugeot 205GTI, and my current Beetle. Completely different experiences but enjoyable in different ways. There are plenty of French cars that your son would enjoy driving too (like a Clio 172 sport). I loved my alfasud too... 1.2 litres of howling noise and fun, but not too fast... I've driven a few exotic cars, but none necessarily better to drive than the Pug or VW... perhaps more mystifying and surreal though, and terrifying if you hit something.