Have just finished fitting my new Ford rotor to the machined up VW brake drum in a 5x130 stud pattern for my rear brakes and plan on fitting 15x8inch Porsche mags.I haven't finished machining the caliper bracket yet but there doesn't seem to be much room between the rotor and the inside of the wheel.Fords used 15inch wheels with these rear discs so I presume they should fit up OK. Must run real close with 15's.Has any body done this conversion and used 15's.
nbturbo ·
Again
nbturbo ·
Again
seagull ·
I done 14 / 15 / 16 /17 /18/ no probs but not those wheels
71superbug ·
how about alfa romeo 156 wheels?. they are 16 inch. off the 1999 156 that is. could you get ford discs and fit these wheels on?
seagull ·
um what is the pcd of the bolt holes ?
71superbug ·
ok explain to me pcd? lol. i dont even know what that is. let me know and i will check first thing.
Anthony
KruizinKombi ·
Pitch Circle Diameter is the diameter of the imaginary circle that the studs are placed on.
71superbug ·
o----kay then. how the hell am i meant to measure something that isnt there? and the wheels are still on the car
nbturbo ·
Think about it?
seagull ·
ok get the caliper and fit it to the disk , you need that brake line off the ford fitted to the caliper , then get compressed air and jack the caliper up so it clamps to the disk , you can then see if it clears the rim .
Do not !!!!! fit the air line under pressure to the caliper with out some thing like a peice of flat bar stoping the pistion coming out .Its like a gun :alien
seagull ·
O plug for V force guys . the drive hub you have just machined can be purchased from them blank * no stud holes *
what you have made above would not pass ADR and if you had a crash you would not be coverd by your insurance company .
get a new blank hub and do the above .
nbturbo ·
Thanks Seagull
seagull ·
No probs , I think I need to get on to the DIY section and do a how to do your own disk brake set up . we would run out of fords very soon , but then again how many do you see on the side of the road on a hot day when your driving by in your AIR cooled VW :beer
nbturbo ·
I don't think so- They probably produced about 50,000 cars a year and I bet there won't be big group of people chasing bits to restore any into the future,so should be a few bits around for a while.The bits I picked up were the result of a young hoon pretending he was in a V8 Super car and shredded the diff,so when he found a replacement he did a complete swap so the brakes were just going for scrap.Should start collecting the caliper brackets because the rotors and calipers are readily available new and would be for years to come.
ScatMan ·
Hey Seagull I would be very interested in learning "how-to" your own ford rear disc brake setup if you wouldn't mind putting a detailed post on the fourm.
As Ive looked at a few different setups and am not to sure what is good and what is just down right dangours.:beer
seagull ·
Yes I am working on it now :alien
seagull ·
The PCD must be 5 on 112 ford is 5 on 114.5 , so you moved the PCD out to fit these wheels ?
or did you buy a blank disk ?
nbturbo ·
Bought a new blank rotor to suit a Ford and drilled it 5x130 for the Porsche pattern.Drilled a 4 stud brake drum 5x130 and skimmed the inside to give a flat surface for the studs to seat properly.
KruizinKombi ·
Considering how many of us kombi guys are already using Ford wheels, and the huge range of aftermarket alloys available, leaving the Ford stud pattern would be an easy option.... :thumb
Of course, that won't work if you have some other wheel in mind...
nbturbo ·
Correct-and the cheapest because if the car you got everything from was recently junked-chances are you wouldn't need to renew or overhaul any of the parts.And using Ford pattern you have access to pre AU and AU wheel offsets.On my Oval I have AU offset all round-17x7 up front and 17x8 rears.I could use the early offset at the back for a wider track and still keep just inside the guards.I have used a 12mm spacer on the rears to give more clearance between the rim and the spring plate bolt.
seagull ·
have you the part number for the blank disk ?
I follow the other bits , no probs .
what master cyl are you going with ?
nbturbo ·
The invoice says DBA 111A.The brake place here made a phone call whether they could get them undrilled and it appears they come from overseas blank and are drilled somewhere in Aus. Weren't any cheaper though-same as drilled.You can also have the holes and slot business done and still be undrilled.I haven't organised my fronts yet-have to convert Country Bug spindles to discs,so depending on which calipers I end up using will determine what Mast.cylinder I use.Will probably start with a 19mm dual,but also have a Kombi dual which I think are 22mm to try.
nbturbo ·
I have used Ford studs as well for this which will be good if you use Ford type mags because there is a huge range of stud lengths used in Fords-and from what I have found they are all the same diameter at the head.I drilled everything 15.5mm and with some Nevaseize on the studs head they pull into the hub real easy. Just use a bit of tube bigger than the stud diameter and a flat washer and a normal wheel nut on backwards and hit it with the rattle gun.For my Porsche mags I will have to get wheel nuts made up.The Ford nuts are 13/16 across the flat and have the wrong taper angle where they contact the wheel-I need 7/8 across the flat and the same taper angle as a VW wheel nut.Simple enough job for a machine shop to do and then get them chromed.Ther is probably something available genuine Porsche for studs and nuts but I don't have easy access to any dealers.
Craig Torrens ·
Kombi wheel nuts fit the porsche wheels.😉
Craig Torrens ·
seagull wrote:what you have made above would not pass ADR and if you had a crash you would not be coverd by your insurance company .
get a new blank hub and do the above .
NOT True, if you use studs then it will pass ADR's and is legal. You will need an engineers certificate though.
seagull ·
Sure can you find one for me that would put his name to it ? I can not over here Craig .
I would like the blank hubs still V force .
Craig Torrens ·
bring it over,he passed mine.
What reason were you given for not passing ?
seagull ·
I think the guy was unsure of the side load that it could handle with more holes drilled it .
nbturbo ·
Some more progress for anyone interested.Drilled the aluminium caliper brackets and machined the VW bearing carrier to finish off my rear brake conversion using Ford bits.Have clearance issues with the Porsche mags though.Caliper just clears the rim but the bleed nipple rubs.Will need a 5mm spacer for all to clear(have bolted wheel up with 5mm's of flat washers) In hindsight it would have worked out much cheaper to stay with the Ford stud pattern and sell the Porsche wheels and buy new Ford type mags.I cut the end from a swingaxle tube and drilled the holes 10.5 mm to use as a jig to drill the caliper brackets-just fit it to the bracket,clamp it down where you want it and use it as a jig to drill the bracket.Will do the hand brake cable after I have the suspension arm back in the pan.
nbturbo ·
Another
nbturbo ·
Mistake-another
nbturbo ·
try again
nbturbo ·
Forgot to check its size-just over 50
nbturbo ·
and my jig for drilling
seagull ·
well done , as for the jig you can use the bearing cap and machine a spigot to fit in the bearing dia for location .
did you get the ford bits new ? or s / hand and recond .
nbturbo ·
No-bought everything new.Could probably take a chance with 2nd hand stuff from a wreck but decided since I had to use new rotors,may as well buy the lot new. Will strip it all out now and get the arms blasted and powder coated then renew all the bearings and seals.
seagull ·
what was the cost of the bits please , less disks & hoses
nbturbo ·
Only bought rotors and calipers.Calipers $135ea, pads $40, rotors $70 each.Havn't got hoses yet-they shouldn't be to exxy.
nbturbo ·
Totaled up all the costs for this job-Calipers $270-Rotors$140-full set bearings,seals and O rings$144-Pads $40-New brake hoses $60-and machining I couldn't do $100. All up came to $754 and the calipers brackets,wheel studs and 4 stud drums cost nothing.I now have everything brand new -but if you kept the Ford pattern it would cost only the secondhand bits(probably around $150-$200) and some machining.Machined an end from an axle so can do the all of the next one myself.Now have to get my Country Buggy front stub axles out to do a disc conversion on them so will have everything ready to bolt up once I finish the pan.
Jenny ·
nbturbo,
that $144 was that just for the rear bearings/seals/gaskets/O-rings?
Cip1 in the US http://www2.cip1.com/ sell this as a complete kit (eg 2 x inner bearings & seals, 2 x outer bearings & seals, gaskets & O-rings) for $49.95 USD with the current exchange rate that's about $70 AUD plus p/h
nbturbo ·
Yes-2 inner-2 outer bearings-4 seals and 4 O rings.I got the double lip original type seals,but the outer bearings are the dear item-they list at $90 each but got them for $42 each.All bearings were Timken(supposedly Aussie made) The inners were $12 each.That US price is very cheap if all parts are good quality.
VWCOOL ·
nbturbo wrote:Some more progress for anyone interested.Drilled the aluminium caliper brackets and machined the VW bearing carrier to finish off my rear brake conversion using Ford bits.Have clearance issues with the Porsche mags though.Caliper just clears the rim but the bleed nipple rubs.Will need a 5mm spacer for all to clear(have bolted wheel up with 5mm's of flat washers) In hindsight it would have worked out much cheaper to stay with the Ford stud pattern and sell the Porsche wheels and buy new Ford type mags.I cut the end from a swingaxle tube and drilled the holes 10.5 mm to use as a jig to drill the caliper brackets-just fit it to the bracket,clamp it down where you want it and use it as a jig to drill the bracket.Will do the hand brake cable after I have the suspension arm back in the pan.
Ford have a different offset/bacspace to Porsche etc - with less 'backspace' the wheels will stick out further and may foul the guards. Have you dummied up a bare Ford wheel, nbturbo or seagull (or anyone)? AU or BA Falcon might be a better fit under a Bug's guards as they have more backspace on the wheels, on the same PCD
[Edited on 2-10-2004 by VWCOOL]
nbturbo ·
This conversion only adds about 6mm per side to the original track.On my other car I am using a Sherman set up which also adds about the same to the track.With this car I bought a nearly new set of 17x8's from an ED Ford and had big trouble getting guards to cover the fronts(wanted to keep the early headlights) and needed much wider ones for the rear as well which weren't a problem.I ended up buying Aero guards all round which are less than 20mm wider than standard so had to buy a new set of AU offset 17x7's for the front and 17x8's for the rear.The fronts are perfect for clearance issues with the suspension arms but may just catch the body on full lock in some situations.Will use slightly longer bolts at the front caliper bracket mount.The rears were good too,but clearance between rim and front bolt to attach the swing arm to the pivot was only about 2mm and the rim was not right out on the guard so made up some 12mm spacers-all is good.I could have used early Ford offset on the rear with 17x8's and all would have been OK.Hind sight-a great tool.There is quite a good selection of rims in Ford patterns that you can mix early and late offsets.I have decided that I am going to get another set all round with 17x7 fronts in AU offset and 18x8 at the back in early offset(won't need the spacers with these).Lucky my Mitsubishi van needs a set of new 17x7 up front and 17x8 out back.The first set of ED wheels are going onto my car trailer.I have a mate who went with Commodore stud pattern for his Sherman brakes and he had big trouble getting wheels to fit.He ended up buying some blank 17's from something else and getting them drilled Commodore(may have even been Ford offset rims)I believe using Ford combos you could get quite large wheels under stock guards with no clearance issues.I only used the Porsche wheels because I had them spare and thought a set of Fuchs would look the goods with big offroad tyres mounted on them.Hind sight again-for all the extra costs to make brakes with 5x130 PCD I should have flogged off the Fuchs and stuck with Ford Mags.
VWCOOL ·
sweet. I want to retain the same wheel offset and size all round and am using 15x6 Commodore as they are almost identical offset etc to the 15x6-inch widened 4-stud Beetle rims I already have (under standard early guards). The availability of a skinny space-saver spare (from a Monaro - will fit in a Beetle spare wheel well) also gives the Commodore PCD approach appeal for me, too. I will have the wheels on the car (over some big-ass vented brakes!) within a month - I will let u know how I go!
[Edited on 2-10-2004 by VWCOOL]
[Edited on 2-10-2004 by VWCOOL]
[Edited on 2-10-2004 by VWCOOL]
nbturbo ·
thats good news-hope it all works OK for you.I thought the Commodore was a different PCD to the early Holdens(Monaro etc) I picked up a rim from an ED Falcon and had the centre welded into a VW rim so I could also get a spare into the original spot-its a 15inch with a 165 original tyre which is very close diameter to my 235.45x17's.Don't know how it will go with the 18's when I get them.
VWCOOL ·
nbturbo wrote:thats good news-hope it all works OK for you.I thought the Commodore was a different PCD to the early Holdens(Monaro etc) I picked up a rim from an ED Falcon and had the centre welded into a VW rim so I could also get a spare into the original spot-its a 15inch with a 165 original tyre which is very close diameter to my 235.45x17's.Don't know how it will go with the 18's when I get them.
yeah, the Commo is a different offset (more backspace, to mix the terms!) and PCD (metric 120/5) to the old imperial HQ-WBs, Toranas etc. The Monaro I'm referring to is the current Commodore-based model V2-VZ. It has a 15x4-inch spare and a 135 or something tyre (to fit in the short-overhang boot) that I can buy from Holden Spares or the wreckers. No need to change rims/centres then!
[Edited on 2-10-2004 by VWCOOL]
[Edited on 3-10-2004 by VWCOOL]
nbturbo ·
On your wavelength now-thats a good idea using the Monaro wheel.
VWCOOL ·
😀
nbturbo ·
Finished the job at last.Some info for anybody doing the same as me-I used Ford wheel studs because they are plentiful and cheap but was having trouble with nuts.The porsche wheel needs a nut with a larger seating area than a Ford and a different angle for the taper.I had investigated getting nuts made.Yesterday I found these at the Bridgestone dealer by the bucketload and the diameter of the seating rim is 24mm-1mm less than a Porsche nut but has the 60degree taper.It took me about 10 minutes to remachine the taper to the Porsche angle and now the nut problem is solved.
nbturbo ·
and my nuts
nbturbo ·
About 10 minutes to do the 10 0f them and best part they were 80cents each-wouldn't want to guess what a genuine nut would cost.And these have the 1/2 inch by 20 tpi thread in them.
Jenny ·
nbturbo,
how did you go with your clearance issues? I noticed in the last picture you posted that the bleed niple, handbrake lever and flex hose all seem to be very close/touching the rim.
nbturbo ·
I machined up some spacers from some 6mm aluminium scrap and drilled the holes for a tight fit over the studs.The only worry now is the bleeder nipple-it may get caught up in sticks that could get picked up off road.Will try and find a shorter one or machine a bit off this one.That pic doesn't show the true story.Everything other than the bleeder now has plenty of clearance.check these out
nbturbo ·
and this
nbturbo ·
and the new brake hoses cost $30 each.
Special Air Service ·
I thought porsche wheel nuts were radiused not tapered
Jenny ·
NBturbo
do you have a pic of how you connected up the VW handbrake cable?
nbturbo ·
Will wait until I get the suspension all bolted in.I have done the cables on the Sherman rear discs though.Machined a bolt where they connect to the lever and had to make spacers where the cables go into the pan.Will be the same for the Ford brakes.will take a shot tomorrow.Brakes on hold for now-back into the fuel injection again.
Jenny ·
I found a pic of how Wes did his with the XF callipers, but the EA are a little different.
The caliper is a lot different for sure-but that handbrake lever looks identical-wonder if they would swap over.Would save having to machine up special bolts.
Jenny ·
Instead of machining special bolts, I was thinking maybe i could cut the end off the VW cable '0' bit to make a fork 'U' then drill a hole so you could fit a clevis pin.
I have mine hooked up temporarily with bolts through the 'O' and caliper lever hole. I have the handbrake cable adjusted so its just at the point of moving the caliper lever off the stop when the handbrake is off. When you pull the handbrake lever fully on it doesn't seem to get enough leverage to stop the rear wheels from turning. Perhaps a hole needs to be drilled further towards the pivot point of the caliper lever to hook the cable to?
nbturbo ·
Jenny-been having a look at the handbrake cable connection issue.It is a definate that the hole has to be drilled closer to the pivot-need to bring caliper arm movement in line with handbrake lever movement-about 1:1 ratio. If you drill the "O" part of the cable for a clevis pin there won't be much metal left-will break fairly quickly.Will have a think about it today.
Brad ·
seagull wrote:O plug for V force guys . the drive hub you have just machined can be purchased from them blank * no stud holes *
what you have made above would not pass ADR and if you had a crash you would not be coverd by your insurance company .
get a new blank hub and do the above .
I would have to say WRONG .... you can redrill a hub to change the PCD so it isn't a real issue if you do it properly. Can you please tell me what ADR says this is illegal as I have looked through my current set ( feb 2004 ) and there is no issue with it, what version do you have ??
Cheers,
Craig Torrens ·
It's legal as long as you use studs in the hub.
Jenny ·
I worked out a way to do my handbrake.
I cut a 45mm length of tube and fitted that between the VW cable sheath and the cable holder from the caliper. I took the levers off the calipers and made a template out of cardboard to determine where to cut a hook for the VW cable to slip over. The hook is as close to the pivot point as you can get without having the cable foul on the caliper body. You need to fit the VW cable then bolt the lever to the caliper. The caliper body then prevents the cable from coming off.
I adjusted the handbrake so that the caliper lever is about 10mm off the stop. This gave me good brakes that don't drag when the handbrake is off.
:thumb
nbturbo ·
Well done with that.Cheap and simple. Can you post pic of the tube for the cable connection?
Jenny ·
Here is a rather poor pic of the set-up.
The tube is just big enough for the VW cable '0' to pass through. It just sits between the cable holder on the Ford caliper and the metal bit on the end of the VW cable sheath. You'll need to pull the spring back to fit the VW cable in the Ford holder because the spring won't fit through the slot (so the spring stops the cable coming out after its fitted).
seagull ·
Brad the version I have is the technical department in Perth also known as GOD or SIR GOD
* This is based on 5 holes ford pattern on a 4 bolt VW hub *
I have put the drilled stock hub in front of two engineering signatorys and I got a NO you can not do that .
Now this is my quality of work ? you say and may be I doing it wrong but for $110.00 a new blank hub why would you waste your time playing with the VW hub .The signatory charges $77.00 to say NO the crack testing cost $66.00 and I wasted two hours of my life machining them .
I used the V force unit and drilled it to my PCD bolted the ford backing plate to the irs and the v force disk fitted spot on , I used jap wheels 4 bolt for this one .
The other unit I machined off the disk then made a hub using the ford disk as how Jennys are above ( I machined the backing plates for her )
Brad if you have the bit of paper that is letting you to do this very good .
seagull out
VWCOOL ·
I've posted this elsewhere:
I'd like to find out the 'backspace' dimension for Falcon EA-EL 15x6-inch wheels - cop steelies or alloys (I think teh alloys are 15x7, though...) (I know that 'offset' is the correct way to describe this measurement these days, but it's far easier to simply measure straight from the rear edge of the rim to the mounting face!)
Does anybody know off-hand what this measurement is?
Is it the same as XD-XF (the XF Ghia alloy wheels were carried into the EA as an option, if I remember correctly, so I think they are the same offset etc)
As mentioned earlier in this thread, I planned to use Commodore 15x6 rims over my vented four-wheel disc brakes but after test-fitting on teh car, I think I'll have problems with offset/backspace - they sit too far under the car and foul on front suspension etc and I don't wish to use spacers
[Edited on 17-1-2005 by VWCOOL]
[Edited on 17-1-2005 by VWCOOL]
[Edited on 17-1-2005 by VWCOOL]
nbturbo ·
VWCOOL-I read back thru this post and can't figure what you have done.Did you use Ford bits for your brakes and if so what stud pattern do you have? I had all the dimentions written down for the different offsets on 17x8 pre AU and AU wheels.I have a full set of both so was easy for me to measure and determine what was needed for my clearance issues.I have searched for what I had written everything down on but can't find it.Probably got tossed because all is sorted out for me.I seem to remember that the difference between the early and late wheels was 38mm,but can't remember what the actual measurements that you want were.With early offset Ford 8inch wheels on the front they stuck out too far so got AU ones in 7inch and all is well-no clearance issues.If you want I can take some wheels off and measure that for you.
VWCOOL ·
It might have been another thread!
I am working on a brake conversion for a Beetle. I have a wide choice of components, stud patterns and wheels - after playing with Commodore rims and offsets etc, I am investigating using Ford wheels and stud pattern.