in a few weeks i should be getting a Type 4 engine and instead of forking out for the upright kit i have been thinking of keeping it as a flat engine......it will look kinda stupid but that doesnt really matter. a mate up the road said he ran a type 4 in a buggie as a flat engine for years and it was fine it just looked stupid. by the way the reason behind this is to save the money that the kit would cost. as i dont have alot of dough. whats everyones opinions?馃檪
Boozer 路
can't think of any reason why not. but then i'm not very familiar with type4 engines.
HotRodMatt 路
Is it for the baja?
Shouldn't have too many problems ... the main difference being the fan etc at the back of the engine - wouldn't fit it in a normal engine bay very easily.
Desert Moose 路
some one on here was going to look into making fan housing's out of f/glass, also running boards I think. it was some time ago now but maybe...........
Anthiron 路
it is for a baja. ive got enough room in my cage for it and vince up the road has a fan for me.
apart from being ugly type 4 are heavy right at the back (not that good in a Baja)
Anthiron 路
will i have problems with handlng?
Desert Moose 路
braking on the road, I think not 100% but look in to it before you do it馃槧
Anthiron 路
ill send buggybrad a U2U.
Secoh 路
I looked at doing this with the type 3 motor I just put in my baja. I changed to upright tinware for the following reasons:
I'd have to modify my baja cage and exhaust
I was concerned with high speed cruising as the air would not flow into the fan housing as the back of the car is a low pressure area, so I was worried about overheating. some simple ducting would solve this however.
The fan is pretty low so creek crossings and beach sand may be a problem.
while weight in the back promotes understeer and braking problems, it is better for traction offroad.
I think you need to decide which compromise to take for where you drive it.
Anthiron 路
yeah its my daily driver so i drive on the road .....but when its finished i will be taking it offroad a fair bit.i hadnt even thought of heating problems but thats a valid point. i shouldnt have to modify my cage though because it has the room i will however have to get a new exhaust
Anthiron 路
how much does a type 4 engine wiegh?
Brad 路
mm it will work but you need to move the muffler out to the sides as it will over heat with stock one on it.
With a flat motor they draw cooling air from the rear. Problem with this in a baja and buggy is that the air comes straight in over the muffler. By fitting twin mufflers you remove the heating problem and it will be fine.
The reason you get away with a flat motor in a bus / type 3 is cause the engine bay is sealed so the hot air doesn't get pulled into the fan. For proof pull the bellows of a type 3 and watch it cook. Same same with the kombi and the engine bay seal.
Flat engines also hang out further and are bloody heavy. You will not notice any real handling difference with the Type 4 engine as your baja probably already drives like most baja's which is badly ( :party )
Apart from the above issues it will all be fine, more power than a type 1 and cheap as piss to slap in. You will need an 1800 or smaller flywheel to fit your swing axle box. Also a bush to locate the input shaft ( output shaft from gearbox)
Brad 路
Type 4 upright - 118 kg dressed
Type 1 Upright 92 kg dresses
Ej22 Dressed - 119 kg
Anthiron 路
vince a mate from up the road whos been into buggies since the 70's will be helping me do the conversion......hes done heaps of stuff like this and knows his shit. i was thinking i could keep my twin hot dog mufflers and just get some new extractors for the kombi heads would this work?
Brad 路
yeah that is fine. Just make sure they are out to the side and no where near the fan.
MUD BASHING ANYONE ?? 路
Heres my bit dude there dont handle any different that you will notice however mine is big and i dont go belting around corners so you may, As for leaving them flat you could but basicaly what brad said anyway you could do what i did and make the kit cause if you want to by the kit you will be poor and i dont like the way there done i did mine different but i bought the pulley and stand they are around $250 and the exhaust just see if you can find some heater boxes with nothing on them and just pipes and if you can bend them up on a 45 and mount a standard perry, thunder bird or the like extractors on and get the muffler and bend the pipe around so that the whole system is nice and neat in the middle this is if your going upright, You will be happy with the performance lots of easy grunt come to the buggy bash ill be there and so will my mate with his type 4 baja we will be happy to point you the right way
Anthiron 路
did u make the kit out of some type 1 tinware or something?........cause i have 1 set of super bug tinware and 1 set of 1600 tinware in my baja now with the 1600 sp and then i will have the kombi tinware. if someone wants to make me an upright kit for some dough let me know. ive heard u can use the stock type 1 genny stand and genny. upright would be much prefered its just the cost of the kit......i dont have 700 bucks for a kit.
MUD BASHING ANYONE ?? 路
I would tell you but i would be here writing for a week so have a look at this and think of doing that with the oil cooler were they live insted of up in the fan housing and sorry in cant do the link thing http://aircooledtech.com/type4_upright_conversion/finished_pictures/
vwtyp2 路
s'pose you wanna see some pics of one?
o.k. then.
vwtyp2 路
another
vwtyp2 路
last one
wibble 路
Just to tease you's :beer:beer
Anthiron 路
so thats how it would look flat?.......oh and by the way. nice purple baja.............mine doesnt quite look that good:P
[Edited on 16-9-2004 by Anthiron]
Anthiron 路
ok so if i leave it flat what else am i going to need parts wise. and what will i need to modify to get it in and fuctioning well?
Oasis 路
Get Joe Cali's book.
vwtyp2 路
ok so if i leave it flat what else am i going to need parts wise. and what will i need to modify to get it in and fuctioning well?
an electric fuel pump.
in the purple baja, the mechanical pump wouldnt fit.
what G'box are you bolting it onto?
MUD BASHING ANYONE ?? 路
You will need a 210mm or 215mm 1800 flywheel, you will need to grind out your bell housing to 12v if you havent you will need a bush to go in your flywheel to hold the input shaft and make the cage go around the motor if i think of anything else will let you no
Anthiron 路
i knew about clearencing the bellhousing...thats ok vince can do that for me.......an 1800 flywheel......ill ask him if hes got one. ......and a fuel pump is no dramas ill get one out of out parts subie. and the cage should already have enough room in it......
thanks for the info
Nick
pete wood 路
no offence man, but for that extra weight, you may as well put an EJ motor or one of wes' V6s in. The power benefit is 100% better and type 4s are very expensive to rebuild.
BTW, the car will want to understeer with all that weight in the back. It probably won't be quite as bad as my buggy, but it will be hard to tune out of it.
[Edited on 18-9-2004 by pete wood]
Baja Wes 路
I don't think you'll notice the handling issue that much. You may need thicker rear torsion bars though.
The main problem with the flat motors is how far back they stick out. It means you'll never get as good a departure angle as with an upright kit. Look at how bad the purple baja's departure angle is. It would be ok in a street car, but you'd drag it everywhere offroad. I smack my bash plate on the ground and my departure angle is pretty good.
I'm hoping to make it to buggy bash this time, but not sure yet. I may have something else on.
Anthiron 路
i hadnt thought about departure angle wes thats a good point.... oh and pete wood i dont want to go watercooled and i certainly cant afford to go water cooled. if i dont do this conversion the 1600 will stay till i have more money.
Anthiron 路
as for a flywheel i can get an engineer up the road that vince knows to machine a flywheel for me so that shouldnt be an issue. in a few months if i have the cash i can always get an upright kit.
Baja Wes 路
Yeah.
I've got a big V6 hanging out the back of my car, and it's short and has an excellent departure angle compared to a Baja with a flat type 4 engine hanging out the back.
All depends on how much you want to go offroading, and how serious you will get.
Anthiron 路
well im not too serious right now....i am up for a bit of beach stuff (wouldnt matter for that) but once i get my baja the way i want it i think i will go offroad more......i can cross that bridge when i come to it i suppose:P
MUD BASHING ANYONE ?? 路
Save money thats hard if you have a good mate with a mig just make one its a bit of a stuff around but you will be able to drive up walls almost without bashing it on the ground and no offence pete but subie motor wtf would you bother there sump hangs down so much you would not be able to drive it off road and yeah there performance is better when you get the revs up to there talk range around 4000 and trust me that would suck it and off roader you need it at idle like a type 4
Anthiron 路
oh and i cant come to the buggy bash day馃檨 i have already organised a bit of a shindig for that day and night and completly forgot.
oh and my cage sticks out as much as a Type 4 anyway atm cause its ment for a single exhaust and has lots of room for one which isnt there cause i have twin hotdogs.
Baja Wes 路
MUD BASHING ANYONE ?? wrote:yeah there performance is better when you get the revs up to there talk range around 4000 and trust me that would suck it and off roader you need it at idle like a type 4
You obviously haven't been in a jap engined VW before then.
I've been in an EA82 turbo subaru. You'd think it would suck down low but you'd be wrong.
Pete's EJ25 in his buggy would be similar in torque to my V6 (a little less but not much). Both would make a type 4 seem like a scooter engine. If I manage to make it to baja bash on sunday, come and introduce yourself and I will take you for a little drive. I will show you what real torque is.
btw, the suby sumps can be shortened and fix.
Anthiron 路
i have also driven a ea82 turbo subie and yes they are pretty good right through the rev range.......and i have an EA82 non turbo engine sitting in a parts car in my backyard however i dont want to go watercooled id rather have a VW engine in my baja (and yes i know a type 4 is technically a porsche motor)
Baja Wes 路
If you want to stick with a VW motor than that's fine.
I am just trying to keep the comments on here factual. Anyone who thinks a carby type 4 can match a fuel injected jap motor is obviously hasn't tried both.
Anthiron 路
oh i wasnt taking sides i was just stating that id rather stay air cooled
MUD BASHING ANYONE ?? 路
I didnt mean to have a go but i have driven many water cooled cars and im not convinced that they have what i want, i have driven one subie not sure what motor it was a star wagen or somthing of the like and it sucked i had to scream the ass out of it to move it not happy with that and i have driven a mr2 that went ok but only when you scream it nothing down low. i do a lot of crazy stuff with my baja and it takes alot of idle speed crawling up and over rocks and up banks which takes diesel like touqe not indy car revs but if i was to build a dune buggy i would want somthing with a bit more revs however 5500 grand should be enough for anyone when you have touqe just pick the next gear
Baja Wes 路
well hopefully I will catch up with you at the baja bash and take you for a spin, show you what a real watercooled motor does.
I can crawl up hills at 500rpm with my V6. It probably makes more torque at 1000rpm than your motor would anywhere in the entire rev range.
What you have to remember when test driving a watercooled engine in the original car is that the original car is alot heavier than a Baja. Halving the weight of the car that it's in does huge things for the performance. They can feel gutless down low because they make alot of HP up high.
If you put the type 4 engine in a subaru it would feel gutless down low and up high. It would be terrible.
Brad 路
"If you put the type 4 engine in a subaru it would feel gutless down low and up high. It would be terrible. "
If you put a type 4 engine in a subi you wold be a clown and it would still be gutless....
The EJ evolution is under way and once it gathers speed all who have enjoyed the results will be more than happy.
In relation to the Flat type 4 when all is said and done I wouldn't waste my time .. stick with the type 1..
Anthiron 路
it would cost me 5 grand to get 100 horspower out of my type 1 engine. the 2 litre has that stock.
Baja Wes 路
Anthiron wrote:it would cost me 5 grand to get 100 horspower out of my type 1 engine. the 2 litre has that stock.
No it doesn't.
I suppose I better elaborate.
The VW 2lt type 4 (1971cc) produces between 67 and 70HP in VW form.
If you are lucky you may find a porsche 914 2lt type 4, which is closer to 100HP, but will cost alot more.
[Edited on 21-9-2004 by Baja Wes]
MikeM 路
Anthiron wrote:it would cost me 5 grand to get 100 horspower out of my type 1 engine. the 2 litre has that stock.
Hehe. 100 horses my horses ass.
Also, you will need to get a 2 Litre Blue Plated will you not? Won't that mean upgrades to brake and suspension to match?
Just a thought.
Baja Wes 路
yes your right there Mike, technically it should be blue plated.
I had my 1915cc type 1 engine blue plated when it was in my Baja.
Although up to 2lt with a single cam classes as a schedule A engine conversion in QLD. I think it only requires front disc brakes, and not the other safety requirements. I would have to double check the table.
[Edited on 21-9-2004 by Baja Wes]
MUD BASHING ANYONE ?? 路
Wes i would like to talk to you about the work done on your car i think there is some things to be learned and i would like to go for a drive with you as i have not driven in a watercooled baja or buggy i know what my goes like and it would be good grounds for comparison i expect that you motor would have twice the hp but with 4 cams fuel injection and about 30 years more technology it should have as for the type 1 motor i have been there done that i didnt have a huge hp 2020 just a 1640 and never agian they suck you have to keep them on top form to get anywere thats not what i want. An ej is that an newer efi motor cause i was talking to a guy with a 2lt subie but an older model with a webber in hes kombi and he seamed to think it was the best thing until i when passed him about 50 km faster than he could get his to go in my kombi with a mild 1800
helterskelter400 路
"has anyone done a Type 4 Conversion and left the engine flat? instead of getting an upright kit"
yes.
a friend has on his 2nd buggy. he was building it up and had a kombi 2l to go in. the more astute will notice a few other details.
anyway it is a good buggy. he admits it hangs out a bit too much but he'll either upright it or now he has a soob motor, will fit that.
yes it stikes out but a good bar helps it slide just like country buggies said in the manual. still goes hard !!
oh, i put this up for info, if anyone wants to bag it out for bagging its sake we already know it all. constructive critisizm however is cool...
[Edited on 16-10-2004 by helterskelter400]
11CAB 路
Type 3 floorpan......now that is interesting, beetle floorpan halves I'm guessing?
helterskelter400 路
very good.
type 3 beam for starters
helterskelter400 路
back to orig question & although camera angles arnt perfect.
my 1600 type 1 twuin port motord bugeye (with an unstoppable 6 pound - you should see it a >3pound)
helterskelter400 路
2l pankake kombi motor. yes it overhangs wildley but with new kadrons and a fresh rebild, this buuggy accelerates to any chosen speed up the most soft & boggy beaches & dunes in turn and makes $50000+ 4wds look like a joke.
Anthiron 路
thats very intersesting i think i might just stick with my 1600 type 1 engine after all this.......at least for now
Anthiron 路
ok well if i can sell the rest of the stuff out of the kombi for him he said the engine is only going to cost me 250 bucks it was rebuilt 10 000 k's ago so im going to buy it and leave it in the shed untill ive got the money for an upright kit etc.
helterskelter400 路
good idea.
save it for 'ron
Anthiron 路
wes could you check this chart that you speak of........if i got my drums revamped all round (new shoes, linings, dums machined, new lines, dual circut mastercylinder and a brake booster) could i get away with not having front discs or is it a set rule not a rule based on the braking ability of the car? i was hoping to keep the drums as they would be a lot stronger than discs.
Anthiron 路
save it for 'ron??????
explain please lol
helterskelter400 路
later ron 馃槈
type1ute 路
i just finished my ea71 conversion in my ute,and i cant keep traction, the power is awesome stock compared to my old worked 1600, i was thinking of goin back to vw t1 after havin a few hassles wit the conversion, but at thisrate, jap motors all the way, ea's arnt expensive either,
Anthiron 路
mate as stated further up the post although many people are happy with their jap conversions it is something i dont want to do.......i have an EA82 1800 subie engine right here i could use but i dont want to use it in my baja. i want an aircooled VW motor.....hence Type 4 2 litre.