I have an odd issue starting my suby motor sometimes. It only happens occasionally and it seems to be when the car is still cold. The following happens.
I start it.
I drive it about 1.5 kays (with a set of lights on the way)
I turn it off.
I come back about 10-15mins later and it won't fire at all. :duh
After about 5 or 6 goes cranking it over it fires up fine.:o
I thought it was the starter until the other day, I changed over to an 1800 auto starter (kombi). The manual starter did not like turning over a warm engine.
(BTW, The auto starter is a heaps stronger starter motor and is about 40mm longer than the manual 1800 starter)
Any ideas?
baybuscamperkid ·
auto starter is recommended for subi conversions, as it doesnt have throwout bearing like the msanual ones. manual ones are meant to be supported at the end or they bend and dont engage properly (or something like that, thats what i was told anyway) so even if it isnt the starter, the auto starter should help in the long run.
Jenny ·
Pete, did you sort it out?
pete wood ·
yeh, it was just a loose ignitor plug I think,
got another issue though,
on start-up when cold, She misfires on one cylinder until I give it a a good rev or drive it under load. Once warmed up it's all alright.
I think it has to do with the fuel vapor line opening up but I can't be sure.
Brad ·
it will be an air leek
pete wood ·
how did you set up the fuel vapor line system?
Brad ·
as per factory specs ??
pete wood ·
where does the vapor line actually hook into the inlet tract?
before or after the throttle body?
I have mine connected a large vacuum outlet on the inlet manifold plenum after the throttle body, is that right?
Baja Wes ·
I'm not 100% familiar with the suby set-up, but normally the vapor line goes through a solenoid (operated by the ECU) and then into the intake after the throttle body (otherwise it wouldn't get any vacuum).
Sounds more like a dirty spark plug to me. When did they last get changed?
speedster356 ·
Which Subi engine is it? Does it have seperate coil packs? These have been known to fail and give intermittent backfires.
Brad ·
on the EJ22's you have 3 lines out near your rails. One of these is fuel in from HP Pump, one is fuel line return and the other is your tank breather line.
The HP feed comes from your tank pickup or surge tank
The HP return goes back into the top of your tank.
The Breather line goes to the tank breather.
After that the main two lines, fuel in and return are pretty straight fwd. the breather circuit goe into yout charcoal canister from there on an EJ there is one other line which goed in to e ECU valve Wes is talking about. then into the manifold.
Is this what you mean ?
Also EJ's like to eat plug leads
pete wood ·
wes you asked "Sounds more like a dirty spark plug to me. When did they last get changed?"
Answer; just before rego in June, I'd be real surprised if it was that.
brad, could be the third line thing you are talking about. I'll go have another look. where is the actual solenoid?
pete wood ·
speedster356 wrote:Which Subi engine is it? Does it have seperate coil packs? These have been known to fail and give intermittent backfires.
not that model but thanx :kiss
pete wood ·
mmm... had another look.
not sure if it's any clearer.
I have two unused pipes.
the first of them is the third line next to the two fuel lines. it runs down under the manifold across the engine and comes out on the left front side of the motor on the top of the head. it's disconnected on both ends.
the second one joins it where it comes out from under the manifold, it's raelly thin, abotu 4mm in diameter. it goes under the mainifold on the left hand side toward the middle and I can't see where it ends up.
one thing I am pretty sure about, the outlet on the inlet manifold I have been using for the vapour line is the problem. i think it was originally for the brake booster, so i'll disconnect the hose and plug it. that will stop the misfire as it only comes on when the vapour line opens. What i need to figure out now is what line it is exactly that connects to the vapour line solenoid.
Brad ·
man it sounds liek you are all over the shop ... Vapour line will come out down near the front left side of your engine. That is with your pulley being your front. It will be a 6mm line and the return is a 4mm which goes back under your manifold and ends up on the right hand side with your fule in and fuel return lines.
The line you are currenty using for vapour is the vacum brakes and is designed to provide vacum and MUST be a sealed system of your engine will run like shit .
pete wood ·
ok, I figured out the brake booster bit. that will get sealed up tomorrow afternoon before I drive it again.
does the return line have to be hooked up to anything or can I leave it free at both ends as it is at the mo?
Brad ·
the line you are talking about is not teh return line it is actually the breather from the tank into the charcoal cannister. Do you have the cannister on your Engine ?
The engine will not care either way as long as the manifold is sealed :>
pete wood ·
yeah that's cool, I figured that out, at the mo my charcoal canister sits on the left side of the engine on the fire wall (looking at the back of the car).
now there's the other line, 4mm line, looks like a vacuum line not a fuel line. starts on the left hand head. goes round along with the other lines but then goes under manifold just left of centre and then stops, no connection just open pipe end. what does it do, and what does the vapour solenoid look like?
I can see the solenoid for oil vapour but I can't figure out where the fuel vapour line attaches.
the only other strange pipe is one coming out of the top of the throttle body, that is also is also a 4mm pipe. It's opening the vacuum operated valve I am using for controlling the fuel vapour line at the mo. that and the charcoal canister are off a sigma or something. I didn't get the standard ones with the motor.
Brad ·
mate i will take some photos for you on Friday and post them, that should clear it all up. I have a few half cuts and liberty's at work so they are all still complete.
The small line of what you talk is suppose to goto the valve and then to the charcoal cannister. there is two lines into an EJ Cannister, one with a non return valve in it.
Anyway pics will explain it much better.
pete wood ·
cheers
pete wood ·
all sorted, phoned the dude who did my loom, a subaru guru, and he clued me up, all fixed now 🙂
Brad ·
Ok no probs here is the pic anyway.
pete wood ·
thanx brad,
one other thing though, the car is still refusing to start again after stopping if it's been driven only a short distance and has't fully warmed up yet.
seem to be at 60degrees on the temp guage, wont start for about 2 minutes. you turn it over a few times let it sit for abotu 2 minutes and then it fires up.
any ideas?
Brad ·
has it got some sort of vapour issue ?
has it got some sort of air leak in the manifold ?
pete wood ·
nope, all sealed up now.
I think it might be electrical but don't have any idea where to start looking.
some one said it might be vapour lock in a fuel line, but the car doesn't do it once it's properly warmed up, so I doubt it is vapour lock.
gayanne ·
Hey Pete, does it run a standard ECU all aftermarket?also check the startermotor not shorting out some where.JVLRacing
pete wood ·
standard ECU, and the starter turns the engine over just fine, it's just that the engine will not fire.
gayanne ·
Pete clean the sensors at the gear wheels make sure that grease,dirt is not trapped any where,sometimes the sensor might not be reading back to the computer.JVLRacing
[Edited on 23-11-2004 by gayanne]
pete wood ·
mmm, maybe your right, it just did it again after being properly warmed up. 🙁
gayanne ·
Hey Pete,how did it go.JVLRacing
pete wood ·
haven't cleaned them yet, I'll have a look tomorrow, which head are they on?
Jenny ·
Pete,
Have you blanked off the inlet manifold fitting for the brake booster?
The Subaru EJ22 manual from here http://www.finleyweb.net/default.asp?id=142 has a whole section on the emission control system and vaccuum fittings and details all the interconnections. This info is also helpful for the EJ20 non-turbo.
The small fitting on top of the throttle body goes to the purge solenoid, which is located on the underside of the inlet manifold. It has a dark blue connector.
gayanne ·
Hey Pete, Crank sensor and drivers side head(right)sensor.JVLRacing
pete wood ·
I tell you Jenny, I am stuffed if I can find this solenoid on my engine.
I have looked at the link you sent me and then searched all over that side of the motor and as far as I can tell it is not there.
I'll go have another look elsewhere on the motor, but I am beginning to think my model of EJ25 had this solenoid on the engine bay wall no on the motor itself. All the tubes are there but not the solenoid. Any ideas?
pete wood ·
nup, had another real good look, but I can't find it at all.
Jenny ·
Pete,
Sounds like the purge solenoid is missing then. Where did you buy the motor? The previous owners of my Eureka bought the suby engine as a Jap import. These engines get quite rough handling during shipping and it's not uncommon to have things like the cam covers, sump and inlet manifold items get damaged. My engine had cracked cam covers and the fuel lines on the inlet manifold were kinked. i got second hand fuel lines that still had the FPR rail and solenoid attached but the solenoid was broken.
Jenny ·
I have some photos of my inlet manifold when it was off the engine if that's any help I can email them to you. I still have the broken solenoid so can take a pic of that for you also.
Another thing to do would be to try reading the error codes from the ECU. This will confirm if it's the purge solenoid. I think the error code for that is 35. the procedure for reading the error codes is in the service manuals.
pete wood ·
you know Jenny, I ahve looked everywhere all over both sides of the engine for it and I can't find it anywhere.
It's like it never had one to begin with.
As for rough handling, my cam covers were cracked but everthing else on the engine was in tact and good nic. The only fittings I had to replace were those I broke :duh
Maybe I'll ring brooky parts plus and ask them if they know where it should be. They sold me the engine and have been really helpful all the way along.
ratbug ·
Hi Pete, I dont have a purge solenoid valve either (ej20). The wiring diagrams say i should have one, and so i went to the shop i bought the engine from, and they said some ej20's dont have them. He showed me where it would be if i had one, and i definately don't have one. I thought I was missing somehting because one of the lines of the purge canistor went no-where, but they said this was a drian and simply wend into a hole in the chassis rail.
They kept saying that they are all slightly different, could be the case for the ej25 as well???
pete wood ·
mmmm, very interesting.........might be my answer.
if thats the case i will just vent it into the inlet tract somewhere.
[Edited on 26-11-2004 by pete wood]
gayanne ·
Pete,you still looking in wrong direction.JVLRacing
pete wood ·
gayanne wrote:Pete,you still looking in wrong direction.JVLRacing
maybe :duh
:P
pete wood ·
This seems to happen consistently now and it seems to be when the car is still cold. The following happens.
I start it.
I drive it a couple of kays.
I turn it off.
I come back about 10-15mins later and it won't fire at all. :duh
After about 5 or 6 goes cranking it over it fires up fine.:o
i'm starting to get quite frustrated with it. I had to wait 20min the other day for it to get over itself and start. :cussing
ratbug ·
Just wondering, could it be the idle solenoid unplugged or something? The idle valve is controlled by coolant temp, and the ecu. If you say its worse when its been running and then off for 15mins, the coolant will still be warm so that part of the valve will be shut, if the wiring to the ecu is faulty, or the electric valve is stuck (lasers had a few issues like this), then there will be nothing increasing the bypass air amount during starting. When the engine is very cold, maybe the temperature part of the valve is working allowing the car to start a bit easier?
gayanne ·
Lke i said earlier must be the ECU a delayed message bad earth etc.JVLRacing
Jenny ·
Pete, the ECU will probably tell you what's wrong if you read the error codes.
pete wood ·
mmmm, time to lift the back seat again 🙁
don't you hate it when you have to work around your own design flaws.:duh