Muso fans

I've got about the same, all in the heavy/darker genres. However I bought all mine so I ain't letting NO ONE steal them!

YOu wouldn't alk into a CD store and stick an album under your jacket, so why would you download one?:cussing

Because if I like the freebie, I will probably buy the next one.

You wouldnt buy a car without a test drive would u?

you wouldn't shit in someones mouth and call it a sunday would you?

i would

haha

hopefully it will put you off eating mcdonalds

i love it in that upsize me film, just after he eats a meal he gets the mcgurgles, then the mcdiahhrea

Music is a luxury and if you wish to indulge in that luxury you pay for it! Just like anything else. You can listen to the CD's before you buy them, every CD store has this option nowadays, even places like cdnow.com
I listen to my mates CD's as well and then buy my own copy if I like it. As far as using the record company as a scape goat; I believe fuel companies are ripping consumers off, however I don't drive into a petrol station, fill up my car and drive off, it's just plain theft.
Record companies fincance and manage the production, distribution, advertising and stocking of the CD's. So effectively they're providing the financial service to the artist. Alot of artists have their homes and livelyhoods on the line when it comes to releasing albums. So believe me, the artist is not on the piraters "it's all about the music" side.
If you buy copies of CD's that you like, then good on you. I have some friends who don't even do that and yes, I call them "theiving maggots" to their faces :kiss

I love maccas sundays, fortunately tho only the strawberry ones *gives evil glare to Frenix* don't say anything!

michael moore doesn't care if you reproduce his dvd's i think more artists should be into that... they make enough money.

[Edited on 30-11-2004 by frenzix]

hehe cam... don't get me started. Music companys are realising that mp3's,ogg etc are here to stay and rather than fight it (which they can't) have plans to run with it...

do you want to swap for some of my barbara streisands "nosey on down collection" or whitney houstons "crackwhore classics"?

we are so P.C

i try to get my hands on a pirate copy of cd's when they are released to hear if they are good or not, and if they are i go buy the real thing. i don't believe in ripping the artist off but i also won't buy a shit cd

i htink it is a knob topic by 'lowlife' and really not suited to teh forum. support the oportunity to be able to have music produce by artist or companies. if you dont want to cause you feel 'youre being ripped off' then jsut listen to the radio. the poor excuse about t he amount of money you earn, is just poor in itself. live with in your means or get a better job.

really the thread should just be deleted, theif!

so you have payed for all your software on your computer ever wes?? if you have your one of the minority

by the way i dont support sharing over this forum too...

i agree you shouldnt be asking anyone and everyone to trade etc.. but everyone to a degree is guilty of stealing data/art/info.. it doesn't matter if someones done it once or 50 times, it's all the same.

assumptions like that today are always used as a reason to either accept situations, or remove guilt, or make seem right... and people wonder why society is turning crap.

I listen to lots of dj sets. The record co's cant sell lots of them so dont produce them. I cant walk into HMV and buy a deep dish nottingham set can I? Thats why I get cdrs on e shmay and d/l when I can get access to bb as I have cruddy dial up damn tel cable...


anyone know anything about household telephone wiring?????

sorry twoguns, i'll follow your model citizenship from now on

society is on the collapse because of my assumptions.... .:duh

As a musician who has recorded a few minor things in my time, let me say that downloading is one thing. Then transferring that onto a CD is piracy, and it isnt costing the record company, it is costing the musician. You think the record company is going to wear the loss? No way!!! WOuld you go into an art gallery or photo gallery and photograph a work to reproduce it and stick it on your wall? Nope. The tech exists, yet we dont do it. Musicians (and by this I dont mean performers, or people who "mix" other peoples music) deserve every cent they get, and opportunities to earn them are getting fewer and fewer. If musicians adopt the tech, I believe the art will suffer. I am not referring to those who make a squllion from multi platinum sales, I am referring to musicians who are concerned about art, and a form of self expression at the expense of popular music record sales. (non top 40 artists)

Oh, and the test drive analogy? Would you take a car home for a few months before buying it? I think not. Listen to it on the net, but burning it IS piracy. Dont kid yourself!!!

Oh, and like a few others on this forum, I make my living from playing music, meagher though it is. This is not a direct reflection of skill. Most back up vocalists have far better skills than those of the singers they support. Musos take those jobs because most of the spare capital in society goes to franchises like the NRL, AFL or other sporting commodity. You wouldnt skimp on money for a sporting event. Dont do it to musicians, who dont get any gov't support.

[Edited on 30-11-2004 by SteveMk2]

i understand steve & totally agree, but if i could jump the gates to get into a sporting event i would....

frenzix wrote:society is on the collapse because of my assumptions.... .:duh

not YOUR assumption, jsut the assumption that youve chosen to use as example. its not very valid. remember your mum saying 'if johny jumps off a bridge you gonna follow, or does it make it right'

and its not my model citizenship. its funny how people dont think about things more. look at the thread on censorship of mags. look at the thread on p plate drivers... then try and adopt your phrase of "it doesn't matter if someones done it once or 50 times, it's all the same."

:blah :blah :blah :blah :blah :blah :blah :blah :blah

frenzix wrote:i understand steve & totally agree, but if i could jump the gates to get into a sporting event i would....

you surprise me frenzix... m aybe if you could steal a vw hubcap, to replace your lost one, you would too!? or is there a level to dishonesty and deceit?

wes your good at indirectly saying things, to the point that they sometimes don't make sense to anyone but you. I'm trying really i am to understand what your getting at... am i just not gett it

i wouldn't ever steal anything from anybody that is tangible.... .

i might copy someones sayings.. or even use their artworx, listen to an mp3 (god forbid without paying) maybe even jump a fence or two (not now days though) But that doesn't mean im going to go around stealing objects from people.. i think people can understand this

frenzix wrote:i wouldn't ever steal anything from anybody that is tangible.... .

a ticket to a sporting event is tangible. those that sell the ticket first of. thsoet hat you are going to see. the venue it is held at.

i dont get what it is you dont understand. you type that you can understand and even condon theft. and then type that you imply htat it should be acceptable.

maybe i shouldve use this instead... you would thieve your way into a vw event! get the point now.

So your telling me you've never done anything like this ever?

why is it so hard to believe. i respect my fellow man. its called karma. maybe if your up the coast there long enough it might rub off on you a little.:jesus

as i said these days no i wouldnt go jumping fences etc, i'm too old for that shit. But back in the day i am guilty of jumping into the boot of a car a number of times to see a drive in movie, or even jumping fence into easter show .. or pools or whatever.. at least i'm not going to lie.

so i listen to an mp3 and something happens to me? fuck i have listened to about 10000000 so i must have something pretty bad lurking around the corner.

your a very special guy wes, i'm being honest.. if you've never done any of this then respect.

but hey dont try and pass it off as ok or defend it either...

im off to bed to 'theive' some action from the lil lady... :P

ewww too much info

defend what? freedom?

ok i'll shutup now

I cant believe I left out MP3's in my rant. If you download songs onto an MP3, that is not taking a song for a "test drive"
'nuff said. Thats the state of play in the world we live in. Technology is no a musicians best friend.

why do i have alot of mp3s?

when you are a fan of the psychedelic trance genre and the albums you really want are pressed in 1996 or earlier, they pressed 500 copies and arent pressing them ever again, you are in a bit of trouble.
i trawl ebay and discogs.com to find these albums and sometimes i manage to find them, but i end up paying through the roof. i dont mind. i respect the artists and love their music, but until i can find their album to buy, im keeping a copy on my hard drive. i recently paid 30 euro + postage for 2 songs that i didnt have, but had on mp3. so the mp3s are deleted now.
yes ive got hundreds of mp3s on my computer of which i dont own the album, chances are i will never own the album. if i am lucky enough to find a copy on the internet or they do a limited edition repress, then i'll jump at the chance to buy it. otherwise, i support the artist by travelling 2000+ kms to see them at a festival. i think thats fair enough.

i listen to internet radio, philosomatika in particular, and i make a donation as often as i can so the guy running it can keep his server going and provide me and the rest of the world with trippy music.

koolkarmakombi listens to alot of dj sets, and so do i. simon posford is not going to make a cd of his sets, so i have to download them. hes made the money from the people that attended the gig, so i guess hes happy enough. no-one is going to try and copy his music (because they wouldnt have the talent to even get close) so no worries there.


fair enough i have mp3s and that is a form of stealing, but as i cannot get the albums that these songs belong to, i try to support the artist in any other way that i can, and when i find the songs for sale, then i buy them. Hopefully karma finds me a decent enough person even if the music isnt paid for.

my $0.02

twoguns wrote:you surprise me frenzix... m aybe if you could steal a vw hubcap, to replace your lost one, you would too!? or is there a level to dishonesty and deceit?

Hmm, if we could just come up with a way to download hubcaps for free from the internet.

bertie_beetle wrote:Can I just apologise for starting this topic. I apologise to Twoguns for offending his belief in honesty for the music industry, I understand your viewpoint and believe it to be very noble. I do not however, appreciate my opinions being criticised without real reason or purpose. I listen to downloaded music and I swap burnt CDs with my friends, I am not however a bad person. Bad people are those who defraud, deal drugs, drink drive, rape, murder, and yes, steal. If for this reason I am considered to be a bad person, then so be it, but I am "in it for the music" and will continue to listen to all music, wether it be genuine or pirated.


Regards,
Jay

If that is your final word, I have wasted my breath, and you have landed yourself in it. If you think it is the record company you are hurting, WRONG!!!!! The company gets paid. Its the musicians who miss out. You say you support the music industry, get a life and pay for your music. Fortunately it doesnt seem you have the smarts to comprehend jazz, so my mates arent victims of your "faceless" crime. I apologise for being harsh, but in the face of reason and commonsense you are admitting complacency in your attitude towards the people you claim to be supporting. Shame. Hope it comes back to bite you.

This topic should prolly not have been broached on this forum.


[Edited on 1-12-2004 by SteveMk2]

hmmmm, i love arguments! always so interesting! before i join in does anyone have an idea of who makes what percentages out of album sales?

ie- musician, the label, music retailer. and any other middle man i missed?

hopefully i can be a bit more informed before i join the fray! my moral code means i dont steal but we all have our price hey!?

i guess when it comes to the big players i'm more inclined to say 'fuck em!' but i wouldnt want to burn the little guys.....

dude, your entitled to your opinion, even if its right or wrong in the eyes of frenz, steve, two guns... and so on. so dont care about pissing people off, just try to be open minded to why others may have differing opinions and see where they are coming from.

steve says its wrong cos it essentially rips him off and makes him poor
twoguns says theft is theft, and dont be hypocritical
frenz says, (i think..) hes more robin hood.. rob from the rich not the poor..

man just cop the crap and learn a lesson and get on with life, i spose they just call it growing...

:beer

Wether you agree with it or not, piracy is rampant.

I am sure thats what people said about killing Jews in concentration camps during WW2. Didnt make it OK then, doesnt make it OK now.

Out of all the people profitting from album sales, the musician makes the least money. And we are making a small percentage. Stupid thing is, its people like you that cause the price of CD's to go higher and higher, causing the cycle to continue. Regardless of how you fail to justify it, you are ripping off the very people you claim to be a fan of. End of story. Are you a tool? No. I dont think so. From the seems, just young. Did my arguement have anything to do with taste? Not really, just an observation that my mates wouldnt be directly suffering from your stealing. I guess I was apologising for feeling so strongly that I felt I had to shoot you down because of your ignorance on this topic. I am sure you can see the sense being spoken, even if your pride wont allow you to admit it on the forum. Its stealing plain and simple, and the victims are the very people you are fans of. think about it. Sample, but dont own.

From today's SMH.

Squiz....


File-sharing lawful, court hears
By Kirsty Needham, Consumer Reporter
December 1, 2004

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Australians make up less than 2 per cent of Kazaa users, with most living in the US, where the internet file-swapping service has been deemed lawful, the Federal Court has heard.

"The distribution is not unlawful or illegal in any way in the place where it is occurring," said Tony Meagher, SC, defending Sharman Networks and Altnet from accusations of piracy. The chief executives of the two companies, Nikki Hemming and Kevin Bermeister, watched in a packed courtroom.

Sharman and Altnet operate from Cremorne and Surry Hills, although they are registered in Vanuatu and the United States respectively. Worldwide, 100 million people are believed to use Kazaa software.

Six Australian record companies, and another 24 international record labels and artists, claim Kazaa infringes Australian copyright law by allowing internet users to swap illegal copies of songs. They want it shut down.

Mr Meagher said the central issue was whether Sharman and Altnet authorised the illegal use of Kazaa software by Australians.

The same principle had been dealt with in the 1980s, in cases involving double-sided tape deck and video cassette recorders made by Amstrad and Betamax in Britain and the US, he said.

Mr Meagher said it was plain that the double-sided tape deck was used to make infringing copies of songs and was even advertised for this purpose by Amstrad. But the House of Lords had upheld that there was no authorisation of this behaviour by the company because the product also had a lawful use.

Mr Meagher said the Kazaa software had lawful use, and Sharman and Altnet could not control the behaviour of users.

However, Tony Bannon, QC, representing the record companies, had earlier said that Kazaa's published "no-tolerance policy" on child pornography, including its threat to disconnect and bar users from the system, showed Sharman could exercise some control.

Mr Meagher differentiated between the free and paid version of Kazaa, known as Kazaa Plus. Consumers who pay for Kazaa Plus do not get four of the software components.

"I understand that if you pay more you should get more," said Justice Wilcox.

Mr Meagher replied: "If you pay you don't get the privilege of being bombarded with advertisements."

The missing software was used to deliver ads, which is how the companies otherwise earned revenue, he said.

Interesting. I never thought of taping something off the radio as similar to downloading. I guess where it gets dodgy is taping a whole album. I dont think this sort of technology is going to help artists at all, and I think the art will suffer. It would be good if companies like kazaar was user pay, with royalties going to artists. That aint going to happen, though.... makes me sad.

i've bought LPs

i've bought cassetttes

i've bought CDs

i can now download an inferior but still usuable version and i do.

on another aspect.
people copy my work/ use it at a template. i dont have the time or inclination to chase them up and it wouldnt be worth my while. i focus instead on my work, making it better/more individual/specific. its not music, but its still emminantly copyable.

its an evolution thing. musicians could look at this as the way get rid of the big mddleman & allow you to focus on the bit you produce that cant be digitised and get closer to fans.

i dunno. i presume the aveage musician is as able to proctect copyright as much as the average dude. not.

get on with it. look at the opportunities of the new meduim rather than lamenting that whaling is no longer accepted by the masses...

:duh

OK, so when people use your work, does that lose you money?

While the record companies are greedy, musicians need them to record their albums, cos we dont have a few hundred grand worth of equip in our houses, nor do we have an experienced sound tech to record us. The only advantage of technology is that it has made recording equipment far more accessable to the average musician. This is not an instant ticket to produce hit recordings. The middleman is still necessary to produce a marketable product. Then having the marketing clout to get the product out there? The middleman is a necessary evil. I think most musicians are open minded enough to use the tech, but that doesnt mean people should get something for nothing.

This whole conversation has been about downloading and sharing albums produced by musicians under the false claim that it is being sampled so that if a person likes it they may just buy the album. Try using that philosophy with any other product.

Like I stated in my very open minded last post, if it were a user pay system, where royalties go where they belong, I reckon it would be great, and the new tech would be the new way to buy music. Atm, there is nothing in place to protect the musician, the creator of the product, and the person who has the fans loving their stuff, but wanting it for nothing.

~air fooled~ wrote:hmmmm, i love arguments! always so interesting! before i join in does anyone have an idea of who makes what percentages out of album sales?

ie- musician, the label, music retailer. and any other middle man i missed?

hopefully i can be a bit more informed before i join the fray! my moral code means i dont steal but we all have our price hey!?

i guess when it comes to the big players i'm more inclined to say 'fuck em!' but i wouldnt want to burn the little guys.....

From the retail cost of a CD ($30), 6.25% goes towards royalties to the composers of the songs when the CD gets manufactured, 4% goes to the artist, 3-5% is the manufacturing cost, 20% goes to the retailer, 66% goes to the record company. These figures are approximate and vary enormously.

I, like Steve, make a living having my songs recorded by people, and playing on peoples CDs. That's my job. Every time you burn a CD and don't buy it you are ripping me off personally. You (bertie) probably haven't met someone that you are stealing off till now, and it gives me the shits that you are so blase about it as though you have a right to part of my wage. I am given burnt CDs occasionally, so I listen to them once and throw it away. If I like it I'll buy it. If I don't, I won't keep it or even give it to someone else. I lend and swap CDs often, and buy them if I like them. I have a couple of thousand CDs because of that. I've had dumb dickheads come up to me and say, "I burnt one of your albums. It sounds great..." I then ask them for my money, and never get it. I have record companies release CDs with a song of mine on it and they don't register it with AMCOS (a copyright organisation). I rang AMCOS up and told them, and got a cheque a week later for $980. they chased the record company. How am I supposed to make a living when I have to sit at a desk and try and police everything I do?? And explain this to everyone I talk to? This topic is as valid as any topic in the general chit chat section, just not as comfortable.

I don't think any of you intentionally mean ill of people like me, but don't put your head in the sand and pretend I don't exist and pretend it's OK because you think it doesn't hurt anyone. Also don't pretend it's not stealing. If you wrote the music then it's yours, if you didn't then BUY IT like everyone else has to. If you can't afford it then borrow it till you can, or wait till you can afford it. If it's out of print then copy it, as it can't be bought anymore anywhere, and the artist gets nothing from second hand sales anyway. If you already bought it (on vinyl, cassette etc..) then make a second copy for your own use. Piece of piss. If you listen to an MP3 on the net and you like it, then buy it. Try before you buy is fair in any purchase of any product. Don't try, and then steal. you wouldn't do it with a shirt, a car, a house etc... I personally don't have a problem with making MP3 copies of songs to put on an ipod, IF you own the CD that the songs are on. If someone puts one of my albums on their ipod when they own the CD I think that's great. it makes it easier for them to listen to.

My wife spent over $40,000 of her own money doing her last CD. If all the people who have it paid for it legally then it would be paid off by now and we would have been able to pay for another CD. Simple as that.

Hey Oasis, I was waiting for you to put your thoughts in on this one! Succinctly put. You seriously have people come up and say they have burnt your CD's? Man, thats dumb!

When you next in Canberra? I will u2u my number. Have to catch up.

fetid_swamp wrote:people copy my work/ use it at a template. i dont have the time or inclination to chase them up and it wouldnt be worth my while. i focus instead on my work, making it better/more individual/specific. its not music, but its still emminantly copyable.


:duh

A song I recorded in 1993 was sampled and put on a lounge CD as part of a song. I just got paid a royalty for it, as the guy who did it is a friend of mine and listed me as a composer. I generally don't worry about it, but if you made a living from it, it would certainly change all the other shit you have to do to make enough money to survive.

Hi Steve, I'll let you know when I'm in Canberra next. I'm doing Tilly's early next year, no set date yet.. Yeah, this other twit told me he wanted to buy one copy and burn it so he could give a copy to his mate who was standing next to him, and he wanted a discount!! Good to see a bit of feisty conversation here anyway...

Oasis,

who are you, or who do you publish as? Which band are you a part of? Next time I'm at a CD shop I want to listen to your CD.

To add to the this debate, I too also earn my living from playing on Cd's, touring and playing music. It is a rather unfortunate reality that most of the songs we record get ripped off, used by others for there own pleasure and or for personal gain. This is hard to accpet in one way but we're forced to accept it as there is very little we can actually do to get anythng back. I am personally owed royalty cheques from all over the place, you hardly ever see them. The big record companies have ways of ripping you off that you have never even thought of.

It is nice to see your name on the lists of performers, to see yourself on TV or hear your music played on radio but we only get a pittance for this if we're lucky. Most of the time unless we police it oursleves, we get nothing. The bigger the company the more you get ripped off. I can think of many situations were I have been burnt with big companies, smart operators and agents etc... You wonder why musicians become cynical and self destructive........imagine working for years to be great at something, pouring your heart and sould into a project to finally get it released only to discover that you will earn 2% of the total CD revenue divided amongst the band members. (one occasion of many)..

At the end of the day, a musicians wage hasn't gone up in 20 years. The gigs have become fewer, punters dont go out to listen to live music much any more, the cost of living has increased, the cost of the tools we need to earn an existence have increased, agents take longer to pay for a gig. When you do get a gig, some smart alec from the audience comes up and trys to grab your instrument, they try to get up on stage in front of their mates and sing (similar to the noise usually of tethered goat or the mating call of the water Buffalo). It gets worse at this time of year when the Christmas parties start.

Musicians are people who load $20K worth of gear into a cheap car to go and earn $50 to $100 usually (sometimes more) so that they can feed the family. The reality of even playing with famous bands, being well known in your profession is that you usually have to go out and do a bad paying gig just so that you can get some money to buy groceries. Any way, you cant play the Blues unless you ahve lived the Blues.......it shows in the first couple of notes that you play....

Enjoy your burnt CD's.....I hope we sound good......

Don't feel so bad, the big companies have been doing it to us for years! 🙁

[Edited on 2-12-2004 by Freddie Fender]

well back in the day everyone was taping shit from the radio/LP or even from their freinds... i don't know how this is any different??

It is different, cos the product is so much more accessable through the internet. Before it was one person giving a copy or two to friends, now its one sob making it readily available for the world.

freddie Fender, cheers, bud. I am feeling that christmas function pain real good right now. I love "can you play something we can dance to?" when you are hired as a jazz band. Have you ever had a hen sing into a penis shaped mike to Blame it on the boogie? Ooh, yeah. Overall, I love being a musician!!! I just live in the wrong city.

I was in Canberra on Sunday evening playing a Festival, bloody hot westerly wind and facing into the sun. A very interesting day. Local Sydney gigs all weekend here, parties, santa gigs, big bands, high powered Jazz trios. Not a bad weekend at all.

Dont get too hassled about the situation with the big companies, just ralise that they are out there to exploit everyone for their own gain. The purchaser, the musician and all the middle men too.

bertie_beetle wrote:Is reading a book that you have not paid for stealing?

dont know where you are coming from...:duh
reading a book is like listening to music, think about photocopying and then youre close.

some people use mp3 just the same as taping songs etc... i have a mp3 stereo in my car and wouldnt have anything else, not only do i download music from the net, but rip from my cd's etc to mp3. I love MP3, it's my friend

mmm...I have worked as proffesional muso. I am also about to start recording an album. Let's just say I went big time and sold a whole lot. Don't you think I deserve every cent I earn for taking the time and money to write the songs, then record them, then go to the trouble of trying to get them heard by people?

The answer is yes!

I would be more than slightly upset if my album sales where half what they should be because some selfish git can't be bothered buying my album instead of buying another case of beer.
:cussing

That's right, they are the same price.

Show a bit of freakin respect Bertie!

All the musos I know are poor people who struggle to pay their bills and work their butts off just to get heard. Being a muso isn't the road to being rich. Even if you have one or two successful albums you probably only make enough money to be as well off as someone with a good job in middle management.

Would you rip a mechanic off? I don't think so.

THEN DON'T DO IT TO A MUSO EITHER! :cussing

and people wonder why Aussie bands struggle, open your eyes man!

[Edited on 3-12-2004 by pete wood]

Go Pete... When someone says "play something we can dance to", I always reply, "Dance something we can play to.." OR I play a little funky pattern and ask them to clap along. When they can't keep time to save themselves I say to them, "You see, there's your problem right there.."

I agree with a lot of what you say Bertie, and it is obviously better to own an actual CD of something. You should get a physical product if you're going to pay for it. I have to pay to make CDs myself, But the recording of the music can cost me $40,000 and up, and the printing of the cover can cost 5c a disc. Selling the CD is how I get the $40,000 back to do another disc. If 1300 people download the music instead of paying $30 for it then I'm short about $40,000.

Here's an interesting way for you musicians to sell and market your music, bypassing record companies: http://www.artistshare.com/
It helps you pay for the manufacture and marketing, and helps you sell it.

All I will say is 'Well said OASIS"

Cheers
Dave

You mean freeware. Shareware programs are ones where you are given a limited (in features, time or both) trial of software. For example Doom shareware is the entire first episode but not the second two.

The big difference between freeware games and music is that after a certain time hardly anyone is going to be interested in that game. If the publisher releases it as freeware then they lose hardly any money assuming it's still available for sale or none at all if it's long since gone out of production, but gain lots of goodwill so you'll go buy their latest game. With GTA it's possibly even more effective since they're still making GTA games.

Now GTA isn't that old but it's released as freeware. Two of my favourite bands started out over 20 years ago. More than long ago that if they were writing games instead of music nobody would still be buying them. As it is their albums are still in production and since both are putting out music, new fans will likely be buying these albums to experience their range of music. Time is much kinder to music than it is to games, so it seems unlikely that a record company would want to do that, especially to big bands because they're still making and sellingi the CDs.

The guys from slipknot are awesome guys who've worked insanely hard to get where they are today. But thats beside the point.
Someone is providing a product, therefore if you want to use it, BUY IT!!!
people spend $30 on a t-shirt that they're not going to wear in a couple of months so I don't see the difference. And I don't see what an artist's income has to do with wether or not you can justify stealing their product. If someone supplies something you pay for it, despite who much money they have, if you take it to keep without paying for your right to keep it then you're stealing! And infact if you want to get tall poppy about it all then you should take into account how phat ISP's and computer manufacturers have been getting off the popularity of multimedia theft.

bertie_beetle wrote:I copy albums by big bands, like the Hives or Slipknot, bands who are living it up in their mansions with their supermodel girlfriends. Now stealing from them is still stealing, but frankly, i don't care. They are still making money, their respective record companies are making more money than all of us combined could ever imagine, therefore, i will listen to their music and not pay for it.

That is the point really. You don't care if you are stealing. Whether you steal from slipknot or the Hives or even Kylie Minogue makes no difference. It is still wrong.

See it works like this, the big bands pick up the little bands.

The successful bands often are the guys who form the new independant record companies.

When you rip these guys off, you rip off everyone else too. The money you would have paid them might well have been used to finance a great young band's record contract or the next big album you just take for granted.

I have been shafted in the industry myself, I know there are selfish people there too, but stealing hurts more than just one person.

but I can see I am flogging a dead horse here, you don't get it. 🙁

there are some awesome points here but some just don't get it:duh

" big bands, like the Hives or Slipknot, bands who are living it up in their mansions with their supermodel girlfriends."
......now this is a good one,maybe you could eMail them to see if they could send you some money,shit cash is just everywhere at their joints.😀

at the end of the day its your life so do what ya gotta do.

bertie_beetle wrote:Dear Pete Wood,

Am i ripping off small time struggling artists like yourself? NO. so don't accuse me of doing something that i ain't.

1. How do you know? Do you do their finances?

2. Thats like saying "Am I killing anyone that you know? No, I am killing people you dont know, so its OK" Of course this point is made to highlight the flaw in logic, not likening pirating to murder.

3. Just dont do it!!! Simple. It is stealing, and it has an effect on the music industry on a larger scale. As I mentioned before, why do CD's still cost $30? Partly because people like you wont pay for the item. Indirectly, you are responsible for prices being high.