Does anybody have any idea about what kind of horsepower could be expected from a 2L Type 4 with a Toyota supercharger bolted on? I say Toyota supercharger because they can be picked up from the wreckers for about $300. If a Toyota supercharger isn't suitable, then what is?
I was thinking of using factory FI manifolds with an aftermarket system hooked up to it, or perhaps temporarily using the factory system re-tuned. What do people think?
vwrallycar ·
i would be very interested in how you plan to do this and any details you have available although i prefer turbos
Baja Wes ·
I looked into that option too (before the V6). I even bought a pair of type 4 motors (later sold them to Terry).
I was going to use carbs though, and not EFI. EFI is so expensive. I went to the local jap importer, they had heaps of jap superchargers. Some even had carbs fitted to them.
They had one supercharger with carb on top, that was designed for a 660cc engine. I figure a pair of them on a type 4 would be pretty cool.
Only prob was the cost to reco a type 4 so that it would handle being force fed.
You should go to an importer and dig through what they have.
amazer ·
The US buses with the air pump for emisions might be a good source for a drive pulley. I think it bolted on with the fan bolts.
Pat ·
You should check out the mazda/eunos ones as well, these have an electric clutch on the pulley, kinda like an aircon pump. So you could have a big shiny red "GO" button on the dash for the super charger.
KruizinKombi ·
Please take note all, IF I go through with this, it's going to take a long time because Heather is currently commandeering our money in an effort to buy a house (And I'm letting her because house = BIG shed!!). All good things take time. 🙂
Wes, I was planning on using a stock rebuilt engine with low boost initially. I'll probably start with 4psi and see how it goes before upping the pressure to maybe 7psi. I'm more worried about heat.
Chris, you hit the nail on the head! That's exactly how I was planning on doing it. I'd mount the supercharger in the appropriate position, then plumb it into the factory plenum chamber on my FI 2L. That part is easy! Getting the mixtures right and the temperature down isn't. I'm hoping that I can find a way to adjust the factory FI to suit the boost.
Pat, the Toyota supercharger has the exact same thing, kinda like the Ford XB in Mad Max!!😎
[Edited on 23-1-2003 by KruizinKombi]
OvalGlen ·
There are two Toyota blowers. The smaller was on a 1600 and the slightly larger on a 2L 6 cylinder. My Brother bought the 2L one. Going that way you can refer to the standard drive ratio and
alter your drive ratio to get you in the
ball park. If the motor is for a Kombi
I would also be worried about cooling.
reub ·
I was looking to do this a couple of years ago to a type 1. Was going to do a near stock rebuild and look at alternate cooling for the engine. I looked into it all and figured it was going to cost me too much for what it was. Here are a couple of pics showing the blower on top of a type 1 case. I have another pick in a magazine which I'll look for an scan in. From memory the guy used one on a stock 1300 doing a blow through with a single su carby.
I had also thouhgt about a draw through carby setup. I got in touch with CAPA and another supercharger company (which I forget) and asked if it would be ok to do. The reply from both of them was that a draw through would introduce fuel to the bearings and strip them of their lubrication. It was stated that one of these blowers would be good for 200 to 300k kms but if used as a draw through they would last for 10 to 20k kms. Just food for thought. Castlemaine rod shop is doing a draw through setup. Don't know if they have thought of this???
Another thing is the magnetic clutch on the blower. Aparently this was installed to aid with engine decellaration. Used on a small engine turned off your naturally aspirated mode would be hindered as you would have to draw intake air through a stationary blower. I had thought about creating a dual intake inlet manifold. One intake through the blower and a second bypassing it with a solinoid valve between the 2. Turn the blower on and the valve is switched to the blower, turn it off and unrestricted air is let in.
As for power to be had, unknown. I wanted to go fast and guessed it wouldn't give me enough without spending big dollars. You would have to guess that a marked improvedment could be had though.
The bug I was going to put it in.
KruizinKombi ·
Reub, the bypass manifold is a great idea, but I don't think you would need a solenoid, a spring-loaded flap would probably work.:thumb
I don't need to worry about fuel going through the blower, I'm using fuel injection at the ports. 🙂
What sort of blower is the one pictured? Do you still have it?
Glen, thanks for the tip, I didn't realise there was a 2L model. As for cooling, I was thinking of a little water injection.:thumb
Che Castro ·
why not turbo?
KruizinKombi ·
Because I want a supercharger! 😀
Glen, do you have any idea how I could tell the difference between the 1.6 and 2.0 versions of the Toyota chargers? Also, do you know what they were fitted to? I'd like to take a look around for a workshop manual. :thumb
[Edited on 28-1-2003 by KruizinKombi]
Grey 57 ·
Kol, have you looked at what YellaTerra have to offer. Bit pricey but they have alsorts of configurations available.
I was also thinking of building up a superchareged EFI type IV for (hehe) my Baja. I want to do a Custom EFI. Im very intrested to see how this thread goes. I thought type IV got good power already add a supercharger should give reasonable bottom end.
I posted something on the Shoptalk forum on the Forced Induction section, but they so caught up in turbos didnt get much out of it.
Baja Wes ·
I think the stock VW EFI would take some serious work to handle the extra air flow. I think the stock system would lean out.
Fancy late model EFI computers can usually accomodate mild levels of boost by monitoring the oxygen sensor. However there is a limit to how much they can vary the fuel map.
I don't know how flexible the VW EFI is, but I would think it wouldn't be very flexible.
The 4AGZE 1.6 liter toyota supercharger is the most commonly known to australians, but remember there are heaps others in japan. Some come with carbs on top set-up for draw through, so their bearings would be fine.
Just remember if your forced to go aftermarket EFI you will be looking at big $$$.
As for cooling, water injection will help prevent knocking on limited occasions, and will not help for constant driving. I think if you lower the CR and use an intercooler (as the 4AGZE does) you shouldn't have much problem with cooling.
reub ·
The supercharger I had was a toyota 1G-GZE 2lt 6 cylinder one that I payed and sold for $200. One just sold on Ebay for about that as well.
Wes's reasoning is exactly what I meant by big $$$'s Mind you, look at the dollars spent on my EJ20T conversion. Horses for courses.
DeRrO ·
I got a question?
What do you guys think the biggest cost element is in a After Market EFi?? The computer and sensors etc.. I was thinking of biulding my own induction use 2nd hand injectors and hunt around for a prograbamble computer. There is a buggie site on the net where this guy built his own EFI and the price seemed reasonable about the same a twin webber kit.
What you guys think.
Cheers
Joel
KruizinKombi ·
Wes, I have thought about the probability of leaning out at maximum flows. I was hoping to find a way to put a MAP sensor in place of the kombi vane-type flow sensor. The standard flow-meter only has 9 stages of resistance built in, I think a modern MAP sensor would be better, as well as allowing more flow, more accurately.
If necessary I would upgrade to larger injectors, but I'd rather find a way to alter the pulse width of the standard injectors if possible. There is also the option on adding an extra injector into the central plenum chamber, or utilising the choke injector that is already there.
The intercooler is an excellent idea, but I was hoping to avoid using one if the water injection would work well enough. I guess you're right though, it is probably inevitable that I will need one. Water does not just prevent detonation though. If atomised correctly when injected, it should cool the intake air quite considerably through the evaporation process.
Due to limited finances, this project is going to go very slowly, which will give me time to look into combustion chamber shapes, quench effects, etc. I'm hoping that reshaping the heads may help alleviate detonation while at the same time lowering the compression ratio.
Reub, thanks for the info, I'll keep an eye out.
Keep it coming guys, I need as many devils advocates as possible to ensure that I think this thing out properly before I start spending money. Ultimately though, I guess I'll have to buy some bits and just try it, but I'll wait until the 'right price' parts come along. I'll have to do wome investigating inside the FI circuitry first though. 🙂
DeRrO ·
Mr Krusinkombi
Do you think canging the combustion chamber shape etc would be nessisery?
also do you know any places on the net where i can find info on shapes and the effect it will have on what ever it effects?
Cheers
Joel
Baja Wes ·
Col, as soon as you change the air flow sensor to something else, you will need an aftermarket computer.
Just to clear it up, a maf or vaf are basically the same thing. mass flow sensor / air flow sensor. The vane and flap types are kinda restrictive. My V6 has a weird moving torpedo head looking one. Both of these types are sensitive to changes in flow at low speeds and give good low speed drivability, but with the draw back of being a little restrictive.
LS1 chev motors have a hot wire anemometer (spelling?) type mass flow sensor. It flows very well, but isn't as sensitive to flow changes at low flow, so can be a bit inaccurate at low engine speeds.
A MAP is a manifold pressure sensor. It is a pressure sensor on the intake. By monitoring the pressure it figures out what the flow must be. these offer no restriction, but modifying a factory engine with a MAP confuses the computer because of the constants it uses to multiply the revs, air temp and mainfold pressure gives it a flow rate, which might not be the right flow rate because you effectly changed the constants. A car with a VAF can be modified and the engine will still know what the air flow is, it can compensate for the mods.
Either air flow method works, but certainly not with the kombi ECU.
oversize injectors will lead to poor low down running is too big. But if the existing are too small, the duty cycle on the injectors will become too high and you'll also get problems.
If adding an extra injector ensure if fires somewhere that the fuel will be distributed evenly.
The EFI system on dune-buggy.com is crude to say the least. It is almost as basic as the old mechanical systems. I wouldn't use it on a street car.
yes water injection will help cool the intake air and increase power slightly.
Pat ·
Water injection also cleans away carbon deposits, and prevents their build-up. I used to have it on my cordia, and when I pulled the head off to do a gasket, it looked like new.
fatboy ·
Hey Kol !
I seem to remember through a drunken stupor (Yours or mine I'm not realy sure)
That you were talking about having a laptop to run some type of engine management software on.
Guess what ? the alzheimers cleared up for a few minutes and I remembered that I 've got an old crappy laptop sat on a shelf at my old job. I rang em today and it's still wherer I left it.
It's only a 486 but its' got a 1gig drive and will run 95/98 we might even get it to log your gps tracks (It has a B/w screen but it is colour on a monitor)
Whatya reckon ?
KruizinKombi ·
It sounds perfect, but I'd still have to buy the engine management system, ancilliaries and software, which I can't afford at the moment. Maybe we should convert yours first? 😀
fatboy ·
Dont think I'll be converting mine for a while. (or ever😀 )
Give us a shout if you change your mind.
I reckon it's current market value is about 5 cents so mates rates I'll probably have to pay you :thumb
Mr Bubblehead ·
Regarding the efi computer, I remember reading an article about the OEM Delco units fitted to GM Vehicles. There is a program available to re map the memcal(prom). One of these computers could be sourced from a wrecker with matching sensors and harness quite cheaply. Probably of a 2.0 litre Camira...plenty of these at wreckers by now.
I also saw a crude water to air Intercooler. It consisted of two pipes an inner and an outer, with the outer forming a water jacket around the inner. Water is pumped through the outer jacket cooling the intake charge which runs through the inner pipe. The water then runs through a heater core (which is mounted external in air stream) to cool the water. The whole unit was simple and versatile because it could be mounted anywhere. It even had a pressure switch in the inlet manifold so the pump switched on with boost. If you can mig weld then you could make it yourself with stainless exhaust pipe.
Hope this helps.
Wayne.
fatboy ·
Kol go here http://www.link-electro-usa.com/home.html
and download the PC link software, it is an american site but when you run the software it says its for use with a system made in NZ.
Software looks really good - lots of dials n stuff - course I haven't got a clue what it does or if it will help.
Woozy ·
Try talking to vw repairs and spares in fremantle, perth 🙂
kurt there supercharged a waterboxer from a later kombi and stuck it in a beetle 🙂
he may be able to give advice 🙂
DeRrO ·
Kurt at Freo has a sweet set up.
He runs a wolf 3d computer. Also has water methanol injection, to lower inlet temp. Should see it with is new paint.
Wes i know the EFi on Dune Buggie.com is crude but the inlet system should work ok, wouldnt be to difficult to build not very expensive. You could adapt a better coputer to it very easily, specially if you found you cheap. You could use a similar system to mount a supercharger to it.
OvalGlen ·
Kol i have the length of the two Toyota blowers written down some where near the computer.
It will be easier for me to measure my Brothers and then tell you. There is only about 10mm difference in length from memory.
The Zoom Magazine article on Water injection is Very interesting.
On the testing they did, a reasonable
volume of water injection stopped
pinging and the correct level of inj
made the engine perform better
(possibly only due to removing the negative performance effect of pinging).
In my Books - well worth putting on .
KruizinKombi ·
Thanks guys :thumb:thumb:thumb
Pat ·
I've got that copy of zoom if you want it, I can photocopy/scan it for you.
KruizinKombi ·
Pat, what is the article in Zoom about?
I've read every car magazine I could get my hands on over the past 20 years, from Modern Motor and Wheels to both Australian and US magazines on 4x4 modifications, to Australian/US/UK magazines on VW's, and even a few odd ones on motorbikes, street machines, kit cars, exotic cars, etc. I'm currently into rodding magazines which often have excellent tech articles, but you might have something I haven't seen yet.:thumb
Have you got access to a scanner? Then maybe the article could be posted here or emailed?
OvalGlen ·
Here is a use for the Toyota 2L (6 cyl) Blower.
In this set up my Mechanic (owner /driver)doesnt have any
cooling problems. The Methanol just about freezes the blower case. And it only runs for 10 secs.
Andy ·
Hey, if I raise the floor in the back, I'm sure that would go nicely in the Kombi. 😀😀😀😀
Maybe then I won't be overtaken by all the trucks and caravans on the hills. :o:o
DeRrO ·
Very nice setup. It would look good in the back of my baja, and my baja does have a big empty space there right now.
You mention he has no probs with cooling, i see it is obviously a drag car so he doesnt run it long only down the strip. How hard is it to do a similar setup with a cooling shoud? Also is that a type block?
Is he running a EFI system on it? If so have you got any info?
Sorry so many question im just intrested in this sort of setup.
Cheers
Joel
Doug Sweetman ·
Here is another photo of another setup - in a baja somewhere in W.A. Uses an SU in a blow thru set up.
Pat ·
The Zoom articles that would be most helpful are the ones on water injection, and intercooling. Let me know if you're interested and I'll see what I can do. There are also some free tech articles on www.autospeed.com that would be helpful.
DeRrO ·
Doug
Where about in Perth is he. Should get him to join up with Noh20. I wanna see the setup in person. Have you got any idea how well it goes??
Cheers
Ooooo o:o: (Just noticed it)
Has he cut the fan shoud or am i seeing things, that could not be good.
Joel
[Edited on 4-2-2003 by DeRrO]
KruizinKombi ·
They sound good Pat. 🙂 I've only ever bought Zoom a couple of times, so I doubt I would have seen those articles before. I'm happy to pay for photocopying and postage. :thumb
Pat ·
I'll see if I can get them copied at work sometime this week. U2U me your adress.
OvalGlen ·
Joel : Mike Kristens Supercharged 1776cc, very low budget drag car. Runs 10.41 sec,
is just his practice / test ideas car. He is building a Much Bigger......
Of course he has completely removed the cooling
but the cheap toyota blower could be mounted to the side or above a Dog House. see my set up attached below.
The Baja has the fan modified as above.
Mikes is Type 1. Hilborn mechanical methanol injection.
I have heaps of info but must be carefull not to divulge his secrets.
I'd love to show you the awesome head work which he has done , the tuff fabrication which
he does (even on Kombi Front ends) but you may get some idea from www.cbbvw.com
-
Now my blower is a little thinner than the toyo but I am putting mine..........
[Edited on 5-2-2003 by OvalGlen]
DeRrO ·
I would probably go with mounting the supercharer above the doghouse like yours. Lucky i dont have to worry about a decklid 🙂
In the headwork that Mike has done what exactly do you mean. Combustion chamber shape and that sort of thing?
I want to be a reliable motor that is a little different for my Baja, which will be good offroad.
If you have got any info in which you or allowed to give to me it would help me out greatly.
Cheers
Joel
PS: where is that site suppose to take me. It took me to a real estate solution site.
[Edited on 5-2-2003 by DeRrO]
OvalGlen ·
BIG Valves , BIG ports , and a little bit in the combustion chamber. Cant remember if he hemi cut - dont think he did.
The blower is Great for Grunt.
You can supercharge through a standard manifold and even if it doesnt produce
big horse power figures (It wont rev ) It Will still make Big Torque.
Great for off roading.
The Australian Eldridge Norman , said that of
all the different modified engine options ,
supercharging was the least stressfull on the motor.
Mainly because you derive the Power through torque without having to "Rev the Ringer Out Of It."
Over revving is far more stressfull to an engine compared to the extra compression pressures from Boost.
Sorry that should be cbbvw.com
OvalGlen ·
Joel I can give you more info on Mike's but I'v got to go sleep now...Later
What sort of areas are you interested in?
check my members rides.oval begging to be blown.
DeRrO ·
Sweet nice info. That wesite make a more sense. On the super charger for torque that is exactly what i want, and why i am heading down this long road. I want to do a custom intake all though i do relise it isnt really nessisary, but i would like to also put a good EFI system on it for the drivablity and reliability. and hence the Intake
OvalGlen ·
Blown and Injected sounds Great to me.
I too wanted to do this.
I have the injection, I have had a beetle with the aftermarket
system working on it, Was set to put it on the blower but
I realised that the Project was taking so long , I decided to cut this off for now to
try to speed things up. I know that the carb will give a flat spot
just off idle -which is typical of blown motors ( My thought -this happens as manifold goes from vacuum to boost , the fuel drops out of suspension).
You should not have this problem with EFI.
Also much easier to tune.
DeRrO ·
Just got the Quokka guys has a 2ltr Kombi motor and Gearbox for $400 buck. I need a gearbox and hey 2ltr cant go wrong i reckon, specially if i knock the price down enough. At least i can get the projuct of a new motor on the way 🙂
I dont see the point of supercharging other than to do something different but that looks a lot better. That would be pretty neat with that s/c going straight into an intercooler and across into the factory throttle body.
KruizinKombi ·
You don't see the point? You don't think that 69.1 Hp at the back wheels is possible with a supercharger? :o
amazer ·
Nooooo thats not what I am saying. It will make 69.1 hp no matter what device is pushing in the boost.
I just think turbo is more compact and gives a neater engine bay. Just my preference.
KruizinKombi ·
Well, I know that turbos can be set up for low-rev torque, but I still have a preference for superchargers. What I'm really after is a kombi with stump-pulling torque at stock-kombi revs. I also like the old-skool-rodder aspect of a supercharger. I guess when it comes down to it though, it's just a personal preference. 🙂
OvalGlen ·
turbo uses power that is wasted in an effort to quieten down the motor for street use.
Obviously an advantage.
But it also introduces a lot of heat into the Motor, a problem that Kombis already have trouble with - thus intercoolers. Yeah probably supercharge just to be different...but got to love the sound.
humpty ·
Here's a couple of pics of Kurties set-up....Hope u'all like'm...
Joel....My advise...On your budget, I would forget about the TIV engine.....Cheaper/lighter/simpler option is a 1914.....It would cost you about $600 per, just for a good set of stock heads. I know what I say is gonna hurt some feelings (Frazer- et al)...but. The added wieght & expense can't be justified!
DeRrO ·
Simon
Im up for any suggestions, one thing i really want to do is a EFi setup. I think that it will work great in a Baja, well in all any VW really.
[Edited on 10-2-2003 by DeRrO]
amazer ·
humpty wrote:I know what I say is gonna hurt some feelings (Frazer- et al)...but. The added wieght & expense can't be justified!
You got the wrong guy! I'm against engine swaps (says he with a type4 engined type 3) Although a type 4 wouldnt make me cry like the other alternatives. 🙁
[Edited on 10-2-2003 by amazer]
bus914 ·
Is this the emissions air pump pulley? Does anyone know where I can get one? Would it be likely to reduce cooling air flow much?
amazer ·
I think thats a bit bigger than the air pump pulley although I could be wrong. I've never seen one in the flesh. Best place to try would be in the US. They had strict emissions and they hate the type 4. Should be plenty around.
Menangler ·
That is not an air pump pulley, they are much smaller.
I don't think the VW air pump pulley would be strong enough to drive a supercharger.
I have a couple of them here if you want a look at one.
KruizinKombi ·
Is that a supercharger, I mean, air-conditioner pulley?
Andy ·
That's not the factory air pump. The air pump was directly above the fan, and the shaft & pulley attached to the fan was supported by a bearing which fastened back to the three bolts that the plastic fan cover is attached to.
I have only seen pictures also, so not sure how strong it is, but it wouldn't take much to drive a supercharger would it?