What's the best engine for a Buggy / Baja??

What's the best (VW based) engine set up for a Buggy / Baja in your opinion?

in my opinion id say a stroker type 1 engine. of about 1.9 litre capacity.

long stroke for more torque. and type 1 sump for extra ground clearance over type 4 large single carbie so the linkages dont break and u can then use a snorkel. (although i suppose u could use twin snorkels).

balanced crank, medium cam, ported heads, upgraded valve springs. and general other things on a custom VW engine.

i think the main thing is to maximise toruqe while still retaining the power u need.


mounted to a 1700 box for low ratios and strength. or a custom type 1 box

[Edited on 18-1-2005 by Anthiron]

the one you can afford........ big h/power is only good if you can do the rest of the car.

Make it light and reliable. Start with a 1600tp or 2lt bus motor or if you want to spend a little money, get a Pobjoy 1916 and don't look back.....lol

The best motor I ran was my old stock 1600tp. No stuffing around with any problems associated with obtaining the extra power like twin carbs, overheating etc. Just start it and go.

never had any heat issues etc with my 1916.Just started it up and went hard....but having "seen the light" i would say to drop in a subaru donk for less money and enjoy the extra power!!! But each to their own:party🙂

Got a 1641cc in one and a 1916cc in another.
and i can't fault the 1916

2L type4 with 1700kombi tranny, only driven it a bit but the torque is awsome compaired to the type one. but ran a 1776tp, holley bugspray in the manx for years with no trouble, just no go with four poeple in it...

high torque 2lt +, but I've seen 1.6lt do very well.

Mick H wrote:never had any heat issues etc with my 1916.Just started it up and went hard....but having "seen the light" i would say to drop in a subaru donk for less money and enjoy the extra power!!! But each to their own:party🙂

What he said, specially the subbie bit 😉

but it's worth thinking about it this way, how seriously offroad are you gonna go. If you gotta drive home afterwards and you want to go to really remote places, the more stock the motor is, the better. so 1641/single carb for a type 1 or stock 2l for a type 4. If you don't have to drive it much and you can trailer it there, go mental, but as everyone said, usable torque is the key.

me, id stick to a 1600tp. at most go the 1641. at least this way when youre out with mates, if there is any problems. its easy to sort. either with parts from you and mates, and or knowledge. if you start hot rodding,t hen maybe less will wanna help ya.
i got a 1641 in my buggy. progressive carb and scat manifold. goes great, and simple. coupled with a weight of 515kgs, and your cruising for fun.

Thanks Guys.

At the moment I've got a 1641 with a mild cam, single 40 DCNF weber and cannons. It's driven daily and goes off road about 2 -3 times per week.

Judging by what you've said I'll stick with this setup but need more go (don't we all). I might try getting a dyno tune to make the most of what I've got and take any unnecessary weight out of the car.

loose the cannons and go for a 4 into 1 baja setup............you will notice the extra torque straight away.

apart from that.......save for a pobjoy 1916 !

A few other people have mentioned the 4 into 1 exhaust to me, I'll have to give that a go.

A pobjoy 1916 will have to be on my wish list, for now..............

64vwmark wrote:Thanks Guys.

At the moment I've got a 1641 with a mild cam, single 40 DCNF weber and cannons. It's driven daily and goes off road about 2 -3 times per week.

Judging by what you've said I'll stick with this setup but need more go (don't we all). I might try getting a dyno tune to make the most of what I've got and take any unnecessary weight out of the car.

get rid of those stoooooooooooopid canons. They are costing you about 25% of your 'go'

Anything that makes your beast wheelstand!!

:bounce:bounce

Type 4 is the only way, you would need a 2.5 litre type 1 to get the same stump pulling grunt at idle but if you want revs and trench digging power but have to rev the crap out of it to get it anywere step a type 1 is for you personly type 1s suck in offroaders its just were i go but they are still good motors but i would not have one

ive got a 2 litre engine to go in my baja project (AKA: collection of parts) i spose a stock engine because parts are cheap and readily available. but i still wouldnt mind a stroker type 1.

with the new alloy T1 case becoming more cost affective, i would go the stroker T1 route. no iffs, buts or maybees. the T4 engine is just too heavy & lazy.
cheers,
rick

MUD BASHING ANYONE ?? wrote:Type 4 is the only way, you would need a 2.5 litre type 1 to get the same stump pulling grunt at idle but if you want revs and trench digging power but have to rev the crap out of it to get it anywere step a type 1 is for you personly type 1s suck in offroaders its just were i go but they are still good motors but i would not have one

Wow grunt from a type 4, what bore and stroke are they??

Pick one!

Does anybody have the factory bore and stroke figures for 1700,1800 and 2-litre Kombi?

manx020 wrote:with the new alloy T1 case becoming more cost affective, i would go the stroker T1 route. no iffs, buts or maybees. the T4 engine is just too heavy & lazy.
cheers,
rick

IF you get a shit quality crank you are F88ed,
BUT you will have to pay big $ for a good one.... so why not stick with the stock VW stuff...
MAYBE if you use the latest aftermarket case you will get a stroker in there without your case falling apart

:P

1700 66mm stroke by 90mm i think
1800 66mm stroke by 93mm
2000 71mm stroke by 94mm

type 4 motor,s SUCK in kombi,s so why put it in a beetle or any thing else for that matter


suppose they WOULD be great boat ancors though


the T4 engine is just too heavy & lazy as rick said
revy t1 any size will do
or subi 2.2 any day
terry

yep millions of kombi owners world wide would agree that after countless billions of miles t4 motors are totally useless, overweight ,gutless pieces of shit that are only good to send to comalco at $1 per kg, in 2l form i know a lot of very satisfied owners who will happily sit on the speed limit all day with their kombis .

Don't worrie dude terry don't know just a flash back terry to rainbow beach what motor powerd the 4 fastest and most capable cars oh thats right type 4's and if your scoop of shit every go's you will still get the taste of defete just like normall, type 1's are good for racing nothing else they don't have enough grunt i would never go back.
Ps the two cartoon of beer baja is almost done but know its a 4 cartoon baja but it looks flash and the owner is going to bring it out so then we can get andrew to come up with a new saying you remember that one don't you oh ok here it go's hay look the two cartoon baja is here before the 20 grand one

later

i agree with mud bashing my 2L powered bug may be a little heavier due to the engine but it will cruise all day at 110km and hour and doesnt worry about hills and its stock so who with a stock t1 can say that 😀

Well, in my opinion if you want absolute power and speed, GET A JET ENGINE!!! lol always works.

And for wheel stands, all 4 wheels would go in the air. Trees in the way? No problem, just fly over. lol

Anyways, on a serious note, what would be the best engine in terms of being the most reliable and cheap to run as well as being powerful and fast?

subaru, but 64vwmark is asking about vw motors. I don't know anything about type 4's, so I'll just tell you what I know which is the 1835 type1 in my baja is pretty sweet. I have no plans to change, I'm happy and I've already spent too much money.

mynameischris88 wrote:Anyways, on a serious note, what would be the best engine in terms of being the most reliable and cheap to run as well as being powerful and fast?

how much money do you have?

Well, in the future, im predicting a budget of 10 to 14k on a total engine conversion, if i am able to scrounge up enough money in a few years. By then, there would probably be something better out in the market. But by all means, you can tell me what motor tech is out there.

barls wrote:i agree with mud bashing my 2L powered bug may be a little heavier due to the engine but it will cruise all day at 110km and hour and doesnt worry about hills and its stock so who with a stock t1 can say that 😀

Now one dude thats why we like type 4's mine was stock with different cam and 1800 heads and it would cruz all day at well over the speed limit thats why i just had to go get my licence back, there in a league of there own.
TYPE 4'S FOREVER

later

mynameischris88 wrote:Well, in the future, im predicting a budget of 10 to 14k on a total engine conversion, if i am able to scrounge up enough money in a few years. By then, there would probably be something better out in the market. But by all means, you can tell me what motor tech is out there.

That'll get you a nice...well, anything, really!

perhaps that jet engine? lol

type 4,s suck

I would imagine that nower days, the subi would be the go right? Would that be a correct thing to say?

MUD BASHING ANYONE ?? wrote:1700 66mm stroke by 90mm i think
1800 66mm stroke by 93mm
2000 71mm stroke by 94mm

So how does a short-stroke T4 "out-grunt" a T1 engine...?

bigbaja wrote:type 4,s suck

You can say it till you're blue in the face, I don't think you'll change his mind. Hey maybe you and mudbashing should get married:P:P

i,m only going on my personal experience
that they suck suck suck suck

How's your conversion going Terry?

VWCOOL wrote:

MUD BASHING ANYONE ?? wrote:1700 66mm stroke by 90mm i think
1800 66mm stroke by 93mm
2000 71mm stroke by 94mm

So how does a short-stroke T4 "out-grunt" a T1 engine...?

I have often wondered this myself.

I "think" it is to do with the rod ratio and the restrictive exhaust ports (dispite being a cross flow head!?!). Hence the huge torque but not so good to rev.

[Edited on 30/5/2005 by Jeza]

lol... torque is a function of cylinder filling efficiency...so restrictive ports (I or E) won't help!

A bit O/T but very interesting how some people seem to swear by strokers etc etc yet VW's own 'lugger' commercial engines use a shorter stroke than thier passenger cars... 😉

Not restrictive ports but smaller I.D increases intake/exhaust velocity hence better VE at lower revs = more torque.

VWCOOL wrote:

MUD BASHING ANYONE ?? wrote:1700 66mm stroke by 90mm i think
1800 66mm stroke by 93mm
2000 71mm stroke by 94mm

So how does a short-stroke T4 "out-grunt" a T1 engine...?

Don't know but put one in and feel the grunt ive about 5 type 1's and 2 type 4's and there still going strong unlike the type 1's in the scrap metal pile outside and terry if thery suck so much what are you going to say when mine whoop's your ass agian cause its going to happen you have my word

try a subi and see how long it lasts and how much butt it kicks. Read lots!!:thumb

You go terry, Subie for PM!

In my opinion if you put in a type 1 and spend some money on it to get the power you want you spend a lot of money, you put in a type 4 and it already has more power as standard so you shouldn't have to spend a great deal more but if you go the Subi route yea you'll get more power again but then you start to complicate matters by having to find somewhere to stick radiators etc in a vehicle that wasn't designed for it. So a type 1 will cost more to get reasonable power but should also be easier to get parts. A type 4 will give better power and should be more reliable (since it was designed to push heavier vehicles) and is still aircooled and a subi is more power but more complcated to install. So it all comes down to money, taste and availability of engines...............If you think this is a load of old bollocks it's only 'cos I've now got one of each😀

Yeah, I'm sure you're right ancient bugger, I was just having a stir.

Couldn't help, i've been having a very frustrating discussion on here with ridiculous purist recently (tried to tell me non VW motors ruin the marque, buggies were never even part of the marque!). Anyway, it's left me with the 'subies are not 2nd class citizens' complex.

I'm sure type 1, 4, and subies are all good given the right build up and right type of offroad use.

Again it's all a matter of taste, personally I like aircooled and like to keep things as simple as I can for ease of maintenance and reliability but if you can get hold of a suburu motor for a good price and you're happy with having radiators, water pumps etc then who's stopping you, it's your car after all and the rest of us can only give our opinions and these are mine and apply to me only. Christ I sound like a right miserable bas@#*d..I'm not..honest😉

If you are going to go water cooled then perhaps consider a different motor, other than a subi.

A lot of the modern V6's are quite compact. Not small enough to fit under a bug deck lid, but without that they may be a good fit. They should be narrower than the subi, I would guess with two extra cylinders they have more torque than the subi (which is good off road, is it not?) and many are getting much lighter in weight than they used to be...... just a though.

The simplicity of the aircooled motor is hard to beat though

When you're talking about offroad vehicles I think reliability has to be a major factor. I mean you don't want to be miles up a beach with an in-coming tide trying to work out why the motors not running. It's not like you'd have tons of traffic driving past you or even that your mobile would have coverage or that the RAC(Q/V/etc) could come and tow you home. A VW may not be the most reliable nowadays but in my experience I've always been able to bodge something together to get one running somehow may not be the same with modern computerised engines or one that's burst a radiator....again just my opinion based on 30 odd years of experience (and a hell of a lot of swearing/kicking/screaming)

how often does water leak out of any water cooled car ?
so i dont know why every body is worried about bursting radiators
we are Not sticking them together with sticky tape you know
so why is it allways said they will leak
and

tim you are full of shit

Jeza wrote:A lot of the modern V6's are quite compact. Not small enough to fit under a bug deck lid, but without that they may be a good fit. They should be narrower than the subi, I would guess with two extra cylinders they have more torque than the subi (which is good off road, is it not?) and many are getting much lighter in weight than they used to be...... just a though.

Trouble is V6's have deep sumps, therefore the ground clearance will be hardly anything, which is not good for a baja! Flat-four motors (VW or Subie) are flatter and not as low, so their ground clearance is much better, wich is just what a baja or buggy needs.

Purple Martin wrote:

Jeza wrote:A lot of the modern V6's are quite compact. Not small enough to fit under a bug deck lid, but without that they may be a good fit. They should be narrower than the subi, I would guess with two extra cylinders they have more torque than the subi (which is good off road, is it not?) and many are getting much lighter in weight than they used to be...... just a though.

Trouble is V6's have deep sumps, therefore the ground clearance will be hardly anything, which is not good for a baja! Flat-four motors (VW or Subie) are flatter and not as low, so their ground clearance is much better, wich is just what a baja or buggy needs.

And rego is cheeper as well.....

Purple Martin wrote:

Jeza wrote:A lot of the modern V6's are quite compact. Not small enough to fit under a bug deck lid, but without that they may be a good fit. They should be narrower than the subi, I would guess with two extra cylinders they have more torque than the subi (which is good off road, is it not?) and many are getting much lighter in weight than they used to be...... just a though.

Trouble is V6's have deep sumps, therefore the ground clearance will be hardly anything, which is not good for a baja! Flat-four motors (VW or Subie) are flatter and not as low, so their ground clearance is much better, wich is just what a baja or buggy needs.

Umm, I wish. Subies have a much lower sump than the Mazda V6 BajaWes used. Anything serious for offroad using a subie needs a shortened sump. But you are right about width. However width isn't so much of an issue in a buggy, it's more length. But then a lot of the offroad guys use straight 4s and they have no probs.

Full of shit now thats not nice honey and what part would i be full of shit on the pille of type 1's or the im going to whoop some butt cause if i could post photos i would show you them and as for whipping butt youll just have to wait your turn:P

As you have probably gathered the best motor is not a straight cut answer. Everyone has there own choice or preference. There is no one correct answer as far as this forum is concerned.

As far as individuals are concerned they have their own correct answer for this.

I know what my choice is, but I respect others for their choice. Type I are proven engines off road, Type IV are proven off road.

As far as water cooled engines go, Wes's Mazda V6 Baja is a proven package. Subaru's are gaining popularity. Time will tell how good these really are as an option.

I personally have chosen to go EJ22 in my ground up rebuilt Manx. I've started from the ground up with the intent of going EJ22 so it's not a patch job. I like the reliability and easy servicing of the EJ. The computer is no big deal. What I find a big deal is the constant tappet adjustments and oil changes on type I's and always playing with carbies etc. The EJ is just turn key and go, fuel efficient, easily serviced and in my opinion more reliable then a VW motor of any type.

I pray to the VW gods every time I take out my 1641 Type I Manx that it will get me home, I'm hoping to be less religious about the Subaru.

i'm just going to stay with my type 1 and when it dies, i will use the opportunity to do a rebuild and do it all myslef and keep it fairly standard as parts are pretty cheap. my buggy is just a toy really, not a daily driver. it goes where ever you point it, so i dont know whether a better motor would get me further or just faster. i am not a speed deamon in a car. if i want to go fast off road i ride my dirtbike. rebuilding the motor and working on the buggy generally is part of having it, sort of like zen and the art of motorcycle maintenancre. my 2c anyway.

[Edited on 31-5-2005 by helterskelter400]

A lot of modern radiators now have plastic tanks top and bottom such as on our mitsubishi Delica 4x4 which is also a pressurised system and the plastic tank is clipped on!!! Our rad blew a few weeks back and the guy said this was the norm, it's fixed now but I'll stick with the aircooled VW they suit me

pete wood wrote:Umm, I wish. Subies have a much lower sump than the Mazda V6 BajaWes used. Anything serious for offroad using a subie needs a shortened sump. But you are right about width. However width isn't so much of an issue in a buggy, it's more length. But then a lot of the offroad guys use straight 4s and they have no probs.

Thanks Pete, that is what I thought. I would also guess that the length of a V6 is similar to that of an inline 4?

Perhaps the best engine is one you feel comfortable with, so that when you are out in the sticks and it acts up your not afraid to "open the bonnet" (substitute appropriate words for a buggy / baja application 😉 and get your hands dirty