Forums and Libel - it has bitten hard

Some of you might remember a post I made (pre crash) about another forum I am on getting served with writs regarding alleged libel (defamation).

Well... After quarter million dollar suits against 2 administrators and 10 members a long standing forum is closing down. Most of them members of the organisation whose funds are being used to sue them!

One of the administrators is pretty much having to wind up his business as a result.

The loss to the Hot Rodding movement of Australia should serve as warning to people here. HOLD YOUR TONGUES IF THERE IS ANY CHANCE WHAT YOU WRITE IS LIBELLIOUS.

Freedom of speech so long as you only say what is allowed. Sad.:cussing

Thats bad to hear.............................
What is the world coming to !!!
If you'd voiced your opions down the good old pub and someone didn't like it ya might have had a little brawl but nothing like to day on this magic machine!!!!!!!!!!

ancientbugger wrote:Freedom of speech so long as you only say what is allowed. Sad.:cussing

You can say whatever you want, so long as you say it respectfully and without slander.

Squiz....

Unfortunately that is the cost we have to bear in an ever-growing litigeous society

Yep, you can sue someone for anything these days.

A growing 'blame' culture.....

ancientbugger wrote:Freedom of speech so long as you only say what is allowed. Sad.:cussing

You should have the right to defend your reputation though.

Ok, I'm going down the other path here.

Depends on the context of what happened. We can't automatically assume this was a bad thing

For example say I run XYZ business, and some person on this forum decides to defame me for something I didn't do. The moderators do nothing about it and as a result my business suffers. What action should I take?

While the fact this other forum is closing may seem bad, we know nothing of the context.

The context is this... without adding myself to the 12 already facing $250,000 suits

A national non-profit organisation recently appointed an executive to be national director where previously a member of the organisation was elected as head.

The discussion has been based around the association's management and use of member funds. A number of members have expressed disquite about an alleged number of steps taken to change the organisation and use large sums of the organisations money for purposes that were not voted on or even expressed to the members until after the fact.

Several members apparently have sought legal advice regarding the management of the organisation in relation to the Incorporations Act and reveled those investigations.

The short of it is that the executive has issued libel notice because members of the organisation have made comment about "their organisation" and political/business practices occuring.

The entire discussion has not been withdrawn and will be available until the forum is closed later this week.

While the libel proceedings appear to be lodged in QLD (which has the harshest defmation laws) the forum is based in Victoria and the organisation is registered in South Australia. The allegations and likelyhood of success for the complainant do not seem high but those named cannot afford to fight it the forum will close. The complainant of course will be able to use member funds to sue members for voicing concerns about their organisation. Even with the closing of the forum there is no guarantee that the proceedings will stop.


Someone instigating defamation proceedings doesn't have to win to close you down/bankrupt you. Nor does their complaint even have to have a likelyhood of winning. Defamation law doesn't allow truth and proof to be used as a defence.

so wheres the link?

okay, it maybe me, BUT:

even if what someone says is slander, then surely the forum moderators should have the invite the person who wrote the comments to immedately withdraw them, and if not, advise the person who is making claims of slander.

If the person who wrote them refuses to withdraw, then the person sueing should only be sueing the person who wrote it, not the forum moderators.

The forum, as far as I can see, should only be seen as a palce that allows ppl with a common interest to 'chat' A place for comments.

If we were at a pub, and someone made the comment, you sue the person, not the pub. So why sue a forum, and not the person who made the comment??

Give me a break.

It sucks

maybe the forum here should have a complete disclaimer at the front page

Ie: the opinions held within are those of the forum emebers, not the forum moderators. Whilst we will invite ppl who have been seen to make slanderous remarks to remove those statements, the refusal to do so by those persons, will not in any way be the responsibility of the forum, it's moderators, or other members. etc etc etc.

In other words, just cause someone made a nasty remark abotu a person shouldn't give that person the right to sue everyone and anyone until they get some money from someone.

Just my thoughts.

d4

In some circumstances truth is a defence, but only on ground that whatever is being said is a matter of pulic interest

What about a phone company. I see the forum as a means of communication. a way for me to pass knowledge, comments, ideas and views to other ppl. Does that mean if i was to slander a person over the phone, that the phone company could be sued? or is it because this leaves a more permenent copy of slander?

Umm its all very wrong. as gibbo said a blame society. We just had a person sue and win a case(in brissy) as the bmx jump she road over and crashed on was felt to be to big and she was able to get to much speed into it. yet she just won a court case for damages.

Mabye the laws governing the internet, chat rooms, forums, etc need to be updated (nationally) so that this sort of thing can be ruled out?

[Edited on 23-2-2005 by BiX]

~air fooled~ wrote:so wheres the link?

u2u me for detail. I use the same username here as there and I don't want to get "followed".

Disclaimers don't mean shit. Pure and simple.

The administrators are seen by the law as the publishers.

As the web is available anywhere the party initiating the processes is able to choose the juristiction that best suits them.

thats not so easy Bix coz everyone around the world can access the forum and they are not constrained by the laws of another country

bugeyedbabe wrote:In other words, just cause someone made a nasty remark abotu a person shouldn't give that person the right to sue everyone and anyone until they get some money from someone.

It's not just about saying things that are nasty. Slander is about making false and malicious statements that injure a person's reputation. The right to sue somebody for making libellous comments should exist, but the manner in which it's done should be fair for both parties.

As an example, in the early days of Virgin Airways, Richard Branson was being personally attacked by the head of BA. If he hadn't finally decided to sue BA for slander, Virgin Airways and possibly the entire group might not be around today. Obviously this is in a different league though.

The problem is that comments posted on forums fall under the "tests" that the High Court uses to determine slander and Libel.

It must be published, it must relate to the person or their company and it must injure their reputation

no words are worth ruining someones life...

bugeyedbabe wrote:If the person who wrote them refuses to withdraw, then the person sueing should only be sueing the person who wrote it,
d4

try and find them! it wouldn't be that easy.

Queen_Bug wrote:The problem is that comments posted on forums fall under the "tests" that the High Court uses to determine slander and Libel.

It must be published, it must relate to the person or their company and it must injure their reputation

The high court doesn't get jurisdiction until appeal. The states supreme courts handle it first. The costs to even get the case to prove reasonable or to argue public interest will destroy most defendants.

matt i heard about this just today.

People just don't get it do they, dumb lawsuits. Next thing you know, we'll be handing out guns, driving on the other side of the road and hoisting the stars and stripes...

"oh say can you see, by the dawns early light..." that the rest of the world will go to up the crapper if they follow in the footsteps of the yanks.

Sorry Matt, I hope it all turns out ok for you and your mates. 🙁

[Edited on 23-2-2005 by pete wood]

another example of technology outstripping the laws common sence process

Sorry Matt, I hope it all turns out ok for you and your mates.

Thankfully I am not on "the list". One of the few times I have kept my mouth closed and glad I did!

I know a few of the guys that are and well they ain't comfortable at all.

So I guess the lesson here for us is either dont say something that could be libellious and to mention/report posts that could be straight away - a quick edit or retraction could save the skin of not just yourself but also the admins and the forum...

Hadn't been there in a while but got a rundown from bcal the other day.......:o

I'm getting legal advice - I've written an e-mail to two legal friends, one who operates in the intellectual property / cybercrime space in Australia and works with some of the best defamation lawyers in the business.

If the advice comes back that I can't protect myself, then I'm afraid you'll have to find another forum.

Andrew

I hope it doesn't come to that Andrew...

but if it does....

I'm sure We will all understand.... as None of Us wants to be on the other end of a law suit either....

Best of luck.....

Shouldn't this be just looked at as a "NOTICE BOARD" ???
and it shouldn't have anything to do with the person who "actually" owns the notice board..... IMHO...
but I'm NOT a lawyer......

and as Andrew doesn't look or check every POSTING on this forum he shouldn't be held responsible for what other people post.... [I know this probably isn't the Law]

Lee -

Is this really Australia, how weak are some PPL. Stand on your own two feet and take it like a man. What happened to those principals. I am ashamed to see the way our PPL are going...:o
Rob...😎

I guess if anyone comes up with a post such as.." Has anyone used Petes Garage in such and such, is he any good?" No-one should really answer even though they're just trying to get information prior to spending good money. Or could you get around this by expressing the answer is your opinion only? You could possibly go further here with this sort of problem affecting Forums what if someone got injured doing something to their car that they had been advised/guided to do by a forum member..gets scarier and scarier!

vanderaj wrote:I'm getting legal advice - I've written an e-mail to two legal friends, one who operates in the intellectual property / cybercrime space in Australia and works with some of the best defamation lawyers in the business.

If the advice comes back that I can't protect myself, then I'm afraid you'll have to find another forum.

Andrew

OH NO! Does that mean AVD will be closed down? :cry:cry

Cant we all just hold our fingers up and say "I am not a crook" ?

Imagine no more cyber forums. I would have go out and see people face to face.

you see, it all fair when you understand that wonderful thing called...

Love it

It does sound like AVD is in danger of closing if we can't get protection lawfully. I can't imagine this happening, however, I would rather not be on the other end of THAT surprise..

Maybe a kneejerk reaction, maybe just safe, but Andrew sounds like he has some good friends, so no doubt we will hear back soon.

This is terrible..life without AVD. I hope it doesn't come to that.

I wish there were a better way for the forums to protect it self from law suits, regardless of who commetns were at the bottom of it.

As I see it, it is a VR meeting place.

But I'm not the sort of person who would just sue for sueing sake. Which is funny if u consider the place I'm in now (tell the story one day...much later)

I am in the middle of two court cases right now. One to protect my child, and one to protect my partner. Neither are benefical to me....well maybe indirectly....but my reason for sueing was to protect them.

But the suits are based on what was said, but what was actually done. i don't care if someone says I am a big pooh bum head, or even rights it down. I care if someone hurts my partner & children. If their ACTIONS caused the pain, that is different.

But that is me, and I don't think like alot of other ppl.

So go ahead, can me what u want, I don't care. I find walking away & ignorance is most effective.

Cheers
D4

Lawsuits are a part of normal life these days... D4,

I certainly don't blame You for using the Law.....

but in the case of the Forum...
Most of US can see that Andrew is NOT at fault here.....

for whatever is posted on this "Notice Board"....

Same as if I posted something on a Woolworths or Bi-Lo
"Notice Board" ....
they wouldn't be sued for what was posted...
or I believe that they wouldn't..... Maybe I am wrong.....
Talk about BLIND Justice.... what about BLIND injustice????

Lee

I once moderated on a sax forum where a lot of nasty stuff was flying around. It was emails at 20 paces and threats of lawsuits etc. Americans involved on a forum run by a Finn and hosted god knows where.

Not sure how it works if the forum is hosted elsewhere but it didnt stop the litigous little twerps from carrying on like chooks.

Problem was, as always the claims being made against certain induviduals were indeed accurate but that is irrelevant.

The truth police are among us, you have been warned.

its un-australian!