2110cc engine build

Hi all
I hear a lot of out there prices on built engines and I was wanting to know, aside from the obvious price of performance parts, what does it really cost to build a motor out to 2110cc? ie: how much is ballancing really?
Im looking at CB Performance gear, and the rods come as a ballanced matched set, so thats done, wiseco pistons come as a ballanced matched set, so thats done. CB heads come cnc machined and ready to go with match ported intake manifolds if you like, so thats done, all thats left is ballancing the crank, clutch, flywheel and pully as a rotating assembly.
So why is it in Oz thats I see 1916cc motors for 10k? Thats nuts!
Answers from people in the know please, am very curious.
Thanks

I dont know about 10 K , around the 7 k may be .

go with a subaru 2 ltr turbo

Because most of the "off the shelf"parts are shit quality.

If you want to use good quality stuff, you need to pay top $$.

When you compare an old Okrassa crank with the shit that comes out of the US ATM you will know what I mean.

Just pay attention to who runs really quick numbers without loosing engines (very few can do it).

I've got an 84 CB nitrided crank andcompared to the std VW crank the steel is soft and the journals are poor. Even with normal street driving this crank could fail within 2000km without EXTRA work on it.

You really need to associate yourself with an experienced engine builder that won't just slap your parts together. He will look after you.

Are you serious about the CB crank??
Gulp.... I have an 82mm one of those, unused yet.
Not to much in the way of performance engine builders over here either.
Not that Im aware of anyway. When you say that the crank would need extra work, ummm (stupid question coming) like what?
Thanks

The edge of the journals has minite scratches in them. Those minute scratches become cracks .........

and ...........

BANG

We compared the hardness of the steel with a std VW crank and an old Okrassa crank and the new CB crank was the softest steel. So extra nitriding was/is required. And you can only heat treat a piece of steel somany times before it makes an expensive door stop!

I was lucky cause I never paid full "freight", but if they are all of similar standard then I really feel for anyone that paid top $ for one.

You know the saying, you get what ya pay for:
CB crank = US$300
Okrassa = +Au$1000

I have found the scat pro comp crank and rods to be good.
As for the cnc machined heads...everyone I know has spent 2 days de burring them and cleaning them up.

You are better getting heads from a top porter like Steve Timms or Darren Gurolla, they will not cost much more than a set of cnc wedge ports and will give better performance as they are made to your motor and requirements.

Look at this link...the DKP club cars...some pretty fast bugs. Look at their choice in crank, heads etc..
http://www.dkpcarclub.com/dkpcars.html
Good Luck
Matt

i've just about got finished a 1776 professionaly built.
I supplied carbs, case, crank, rods, heads
& it's cost me close to 4k for a turnkey (excluding above parts)
cheaper to buy second hand motor, but you don't know what your buying
It's an expensive hobby

Gorn,

have you had your crank tested or looked at by someone that knows what they're looking at?

Not as yet 56astro. Still in the buying parts stage, but going by what you and others have said, I will be sure to send all my bits of to a reputable builder in the eastern states.
Better safe than sorry eh?

CB's rods are very impressive though, Carillo-quality!

Thats good to hear, as Im buying a set from Serrano in the US this week, along with an Empi sump. Bits and pieces as the money comes in :thumb

No need to send over east, there are a couple of perfectly good engine builders in Perth.

Arnoldi
Vee Dub Repairs and Spares (Kurt runs a supercharged waterboxer)
and probably Vee Dub Center in Morley.

Ive been to Kurt a few times, but never asked about an engine build, Im always in a hurry lol.
How good is he?

My engine builder Stan Pobjoy charges way less than a grand to 'build' (ie: assemble) an engine. But that's after buying the parts and machining/prep. And you don't need to buy much stuff - the OE VW stuff (crank - when counterweighted, rods, valvegear, pushrods, even stock heads when used with the right cam) is all VERY good for street performance. US stuff is often Taiwan-made junk than needs hardening and other machining before it can be assembled into an engine. And you can NEVER build a strong engine by buying a ppp-piece form here and a ppp-piece from there or from a catalog. It WILL cost you more and perform less. I know it is difficult, and buying is soooo tempting and it's nice to look at all the parts on the bedroom floor or in the cupboard or wherever, but save your money as it comes in and then when you get to $6K or so, go and buy a ready-built engine package. My 2c

[Edited on 1-3-2005 by VWCOOL]

Here we go again........

Repeat after me 'Stan is THE man, but he is not the ONLY man....' :thumb

Jokes people, dont get upset. 😉

Sure, its great to be able to say just get stan to build it, but the grand you are mentioning up top doesnt include any machining or balancing etc - and we all know that is the foundation of a great, strong motor.

Unfortunately, until Stan opens a franchise over here in the west, its less than practical (unless $ arent really a concern) to freight boxes of bits over, then an engine back.

For my money, do your research properly. Really properly - look at as many different engine combinations as you can, especially known performers. Ask all the silly questions up front - its much easier, for example, to change your choice of cam (something I wish I had done) before you have installed said cam in engine, in car.

People like Dave Becker are good for no bullshit advice on here.

If you can afford it, and want to go that way, get one of stans motors - he is without doubt, the best vw engine builder in Australia. You will pay for what you get. I'm not sure how warranty works over here with Stans motors and servicing - ask Desert Moose, he has a pobjoy motor in his buggy.

But if you are like me, $ constrained, and more interested in building an engine than buying one, do it yourself. Its not rocket science, but you must do everything right, as it is the overall package that performs, not any one single component.

As for Kurt, he is very good. I dont know how many hot type 1 motors he has built, but he would certainly be worth asking.

BEst of luck

[Edited on 1-3-2005 by Doug Sweetman]

As silly as it may sound....building it yourself is not such a bad idea. I know of a few people who have put there own hot vw engines together and performed great.

Look on http://www.shoptalkforums.com/

A guy once asked who to get to build his motor and they talked him through it step by step from start to finish.

I have been in quick 1916's and I have been in a quick 2180/2275..... I got out of the 1916 thinking that it was a pretty quick car, got out of the 2180 and 2275 thinking it was one of the quickest street cars I have been in..it was like comparing a swift GTi with a wrx. On the track with no passengers where you can keep revvs up, the 1916 will go hard...instant throttle response in any gear with 2 friends in the car.....I LIKE TO BE STROKED...!

CB performance and scat are bothe made in the USA, and have been making good bottom ends for a long time.

Good luck with whatever you choose...Just do heaps of research, and ask heaps of questions.

Matt

I was just using my engine builder as an example for the tiny cost of having an engine built right the first time.

I know what it's like to stare back over a two-decade career of playing with cars and realise I've probably wasted $50K on 'name brand' bits I didn't need (and cost- and corner-cutting which came back to bite me on the arse) when I could've paid pros to get it right, first time, without any f-n around or wasted time, energy and money. Save up and pay a pro. That's my advice. There's plenty of people on here who will, if they have the guts to admit it, feel the same way...

boof2332 wrote:CB performance and scat are bothe made in the USA,
Matt

Matt

I think you'll find that Scat may make their own cranks, but manufacturers like CB, Bugpack, aircooled.net get their cores made in China, then machine in the US.

Intersting to note that in the January 2005 VW Trends that in the dyno shoot-out results, no crank brand names were given. They name their rods, cams, pistons, heads etc but the crank brands are kept "secret". I'll try and find out why.

Anyways, I've seen first hand the quality difference btween a std VW 69mm crank, an old Claude's Buggies crank, an Okrassa and a CB Performance (apparently nitrided) crank, and the first 3 comparred to the last one is chalk and cheese. Bare in mind that it didn't cost me much, and if it can be fixed, I'll probably spend the money to fix it.

😉

My last one was ordered directly from scat as a complete engine kit less case and heads....and it was not that expensive. It was NOT the budget volkstroker 2 or 3, it was the volksracer billet crank...Becker bought it.

I have never bought a CB crank, I just hadnt heard anything bad about them first hand.(my mistake sorry)

VWCOOL.... I personally would never build my own motor, the only person I trust to build mine is Andrew Dodd. He just doesnt build performance motors, and thus he will take 6mnths or longer to do so. His motors finish every year in the targa, and the London to Sydney Rally without a problem.

If you do alot of reasearch and take your time you will minimise your money wasting......Buy a good crank/rods and buy your heads, cam and set your compression ratio around the intended use of the engine.

Problem can be that alot of pros will tell you, you need something they make or import......so always listen to the masses to help make your educated decision.

Matt

Heres a site to look up combos

http://www.geocities.com/enginecookbook/menu.htm

Thanks mountain bug!!

I had that linke years ago when Ryan B was the last to add. He has has his 1916 for a couple of years now.

This is a brilliant site to see different combos

just got a motor(89kg) sent from perth to mid north coast nsw (pobjoy territory)-$320 one way, so you can add this to all your info. good luck. do the sums on pricing $1000 case, $1100-$2000 crank, $500-$1500 rods, $500 p&barrels, $750-$1500 heads, then there are cams, gears, lifters, sumps,oil pumps, bearings, push rods, lifters, $10-$!000 ignition,$1000-$2500 induction, altenators, exhausts, tinware, linkages,filters,gasket kits,clutches, pressure plates,flywheels, oil lines,pretty bits and finally lots of labour & machining..........there is probably lots more missing from this list, the bottom line is you can spend whatever YOU want or can. go for it!!!

I have said this before and people do not believe me...

Scat volksracer engine kit....
Crank billett
H or I beam billett rods
Barrells and pistons
HD oil pump
scat lightweight lifters/followers
cam of your choice(scat) $30 more for engle
cam gear
chromolly pushrods
and all the bearings and gaskets you need.

I added ratio rockers and a power pulley and $220 for shipping the total was about $1700 Australian...for all of it.
The kit itself is $815us which is $1060 aussie.

Cb performance super case landed was $900

Heads are your choice...I got drd racing ($1850 landed) they are as expensive as your gonna get.

If you get some allright heads at the right price, say $600...then the long block has only cost you $3200 then add $1000 for stan or similar to throw it together.....

Call Ron Greiner at scat and he will help you.

The dollar is strong and shipping is not that expensive!

Matt

Im getting almost ALL my parts out of the samba forum. Wayyyy cheaper than full retail here even taking into account freight.
Im taking advantage of our exchange rate whilst its good.
God forbid doing this in the dark days of under 50c exchange rate.
That link was excellent to by the way so thanks Mountainbug!!!

boof2332 wrote:My last one was ordered directly from scat as a complete engine kit less case and heads....and it was not that expensive. It was NOT the budget volkstroker 2 or 3, it was the volksracer billet crank...Becker bought it.

I have never bought a CB crank, I just hadnt heard anything bad about them first hand.(my mistake sorry)

VWCOOL.... I personally would never build my own motor, the only person I trust to build mine is Andrew Dodd. He just doesnt build performance motors, and thus he will take 6mnths or longer to do so. His motors finish every year in the targa, and the London to Sydney Rally without a problem.

If you do alot of reasearch and take your time you will minimise your money wasting......Buy a good crank/rods and buy your heads, cam and set your compression ratio around the intended use of the engine.

Problem can be that alot of pros will tell you, you need something they make or import......so always listen to the masses to help make your educated decision.

Matt

lol... Part of my point is, lots and lots and lots of people waste so much money by buying 'brand name parts' that they have no idea about when they SHOULD simply ring a builder, say 'I want 15 second quarters and 30mpg' and then simply pay the money to make it happen. It really is that easy!

Instead, I know of people here and elsewhere who have tried three sets of carbies, ratio rockers, cams, merged exhaust, mufflers, chrome-molly pushrods, stroker cranks, aftermarket CNC-machined and/or-hand ported heads yadda yadda yadda and then just given up. Some have bought Sunaru engines or - worse - another car because they have NO IDEA what it is they want, what it is they've bought or what it takes to change what it is they have, if you see my point.

Sometimes, such as at Amaroo Park years ago, these 'catalogue' engines full of 'famous name brand parts' were humiliated by my stock-headed, stoch geared, stock-rodded, stock-pushrod, stock rocker gear, stock case, and stock-crank engine with nothing more than Kadrons, cam and an exhaust..

The expertise is in the specs and assembly or the "package", not teh brand name on the parts. You have chosen your prefered engine builder and I bet if he says "you do need this" or "You don't need that" you take his advice. I have had product from Dodd too.

I am happy to build cars (7 or 8 big builds or restos since 1987), but leave the engine building to people with more expereince than I have had birthdays and the records and tophies to prove it.

The last nine engines that my brother and I have had built or upgraded have come from the one bloke. We tell him what we need and he delivers. We pay our $ and are ecstatic every single time

[Edited on 5-3-2005 by VWCOOL]

[Edited on 5-3-2005 by VWCOOL]

Gorn,

I think your 2110cc engine combo is a good choice. I hope the advice re cranks and prices will help you get the parts for a strong motor...there are some great deals on samba.

I am sure you will find a great engine builder to help advise you on the finer details such as cam, rockers, heads and fuel delivery systems specific to your needs....

Just out of curiosity..what is your intended use for the motor?
If you do have to save for the various purchases...it gives you plenty of time to read up on similar sucessfull combinations...
I wanted a really torquey street motor, that I could occasionally use in various events, but could also use daily if required..
Mine was ....
2332cc, scat crank, web 86b cam, DRD racing heads, IDA's with 3rd progression hole 1 5/8 merged headers.

The only reason i have done the subaru conversion is because I have had a 2180, 1916(pobjoy), 2074 and a 2275.
I also was able to sell my engine parts, do the conversion and buy a trail bike....

Vwfool...what crank would you advise for the 2110? Have you had any experiences good or bad with the bigger strokes.

Matt

Hiya Boof
Big motor you got there mate!
Im after a fast street motor with a bit of drag racing thrown in a few times a year. Im reading everything I can get my hands on to figure out what seems to be the go etc etc. I will be leaving the cam and rocker choice till the last minute, and up to the engine builder to decide if thats a good choice. When it comes to lift and duration, I am clueless lol.
I know some may say Im dreaming, but Im after at least 150hp at the rear wheels. Seems to be quite a few cars out there with way more than that, so I dont think its an unreasonable figure.
What Im not after is a car that doesnt do much until 5000rpm and peaks at 7. Timebomb right there I think.
I already have the CB 82mm crank, and am trying to source a set of H beam CB rods from Serrano on the samba.
I want to build a stout bottom end first and work from there.

Aaron

Gorn,

For what you are going to use it for...I beam rods would be fine.
There are 2 problems regarding H.P figures. Firstly American Dyno readings are higher than ours...not exactly sure how or why but 200hp in the states might be 170 here.
Secondly the type of motor you and I like due to cam choice and heads will make more torque for longer and less H.P. A fk89 drag cam will give you high hp at really high revvs, but not much of anything under 4000rpm.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Apartt from choosing a solid bottom end the hardest decision I had to make was cam, then heads. I originally got an fk10 and decided even with the 84 stroke(heaps of torque) it was too big for my needs. The choice was between a web86b (same as fk8) needs 1.4 rockers which I had, the web split duration cams such as the web 121/125 or 122/125...these are the ones Jake Raby slightly modifies and gets crazy performance.(stock rockers!!!!!!). Then there is the vf range from engle...the last two have steep ramps and can be hard on the cam gear and followers...I think they creramic coat them to solve the problem...you can email Jake..really helpful.

Have you seen the quaife diff test....Mark Herbert. It rocks and these were his specs...Maybe just copy them, there is nothing too expensive in the package.
http://www.oceanstreetvideo.com/underground/quaifemed.rm

It is a 2276, here are the specs...
94mm Cima pistons, 82mm welded stroker, stock relieved VW rods, 14+lb flywheel, 120 cam (295dur x .495lift w/ 1.25 rockers). Solid shaft rocker kit, 3/8 thin-wall chromoly pushrods. 8 mm chromoly headstuds. 040 stock VW head castings w/ 40x37.5 valves, fully ported (as big as you can go without welding), unshrouded chambers w/ hemicut, 8 to 1 compression, competition valve job, stainless steel valves, dual springs, titanium retainers, tapered intake guides, intake guide bosses NOT removed, intake manifolds match-ported all the way up. and lastly he has some 48 dellortos on there... And 1 5/8 merged headers 2 1/2 inch muffler.

Matt

Thanks for the info Boof. I dont have real media player, so cant view that link. Had it before, and was always screwy.

its worth getting for that clip mate 🙂

that clip is almost as good as the rotary bug burnout video in my opinion 🙂


Anthony

Anthony,

How is your project coming along??? Did you ever find out what they will let you put in(13bt)?

Matt

i rang the place up, and they said that here in perth there are no restrictions as to what motor can go in which car. assuming that the rest of the car is capable of handling it. brakes, chassis, suspension .etc

So im guessing that means that it is possible.

and as far as the project, just finishing off the inside, getting the stereo install finished.

almost purchased a wolf 3d ecu, handcontroller .etc but then the deal fell through.

so im currently saving my pennys to do the suspension, then the brakes.

just finished paying off bills. so all the money i earn now is MINE and mine only from now on.

should skip along a bit quicker.

hows the subie running?

Anthony

heres a site that will build a arwsome type1 or tp4 for the beetle
got a price about 6 mths ago for a tp1
full turn key, 2007cc delivered 8k aud not including taxes


http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/

[Edited on 8-3-2005 by mountainbug]

how about transmission mate. what transmission you plan on running?

Anthony

Taxes on that will be a bit...10%gst and 3% on parts for old cars...make sure you get them to specify that it is for a 60 something model, and not new technology as such..then can be 15%. He may do tricky and write $2000 on the paperwork.

You will be assured of a pretty good motor....do you get the new, best improvement to aircooled motors, fan shroud?

Anthony...if you can, best do it fast before they change their minds..especially with all the young drivers over here being killing themselves due to too much power and no skills.
Do not worry about the ecu till you have made the definite engine purchase...they are not interchangeable alot of the time..get the motor in first. The subie is time constrained. All is fine except for the tuning. Been to busy to look at it for the last 8 days.I am going to Jaks tomorrow to copy his ecu maps to my laptop and then load them into mine..and then all should be good.

Matt



[Edited on 8-3-2005 by boof2332]

hey matt

what do you think about the 86 x 94 combo?

i reckon you're on the money with your idea of a big torquey engine rather than a grenade that only revs to 8k for a couple of months then kaboom!

i have been thinking that a 2387, with a tf1 aluminium case would do the job. not that its gonna happen anytime soon, just like the idea of building what i can of my own engine (very slowly)

Not many of them around..there was that white supercharged one in the U.K.

For along time people thought you couldnt go larger than 82mm crank...due to clearance issues. Having said that you can go 86mm as they all have to det clearanced anyway.

Anew design aluminium case would be perfect. Would you still have to clearance the cam...ask the case supplier I guess.

That capacity with some specific ported heads with 42x37.5 nice chambers and exhaust ports with focus on airspeed and velocity, a real even cam like the 121/125 or 122/125 that aircooled tecnology tweaks would be a real stump puller.

I had a 2180 in a blue 59 when I was 19 that had 40mm intake heads and 110 cam with 40 idf's and you could start off in 4th gear. Only revved to 5k but was one of the most instantly responsive cars I have ever driven.

Who has time to be winding it out through the gears to get great performance when primarliy a street car/daily driver? A drag car is a little different though.....

I might be going over in July for a seek and destroy mission, so I will keep you posted. I will be sending stuff from every postoffice I stop at.

Matt

might be going where matt?

if i could get a beetle like the one in the quaiffe video for a not too high price i would go for it straight out.

only it seems a ZF lsd is better as it works both with decelleration and acceleration :p

Anthony

check out the tf1 website

http://www.precisionalloy.com/pages/tf-1.html

says that 86mm stroke drops straight in, and roof is raised so chances are cam will do the same

looks like it has all the pros of the t4 al. case, but with the fact that you can use the cheaper (and greater choice) of t1 hi po parts

i have been dreaming about the possibilities for a while

also, check out genebergs website, heaps of tech advise there too

anyhow, food for thought.....

ooohh aaaahh

Its got a deep sump too 🙂 which is what all the other cases seem to forget about!

How do they get away with the lower cam? Bigger gear?

I remember another post that mentioned these cases, what was the cost of this sucker again?

Excellent info in this post guys, makes for really good reading.

Cheers
Jeremy

Matt,
You almost described the engine I currently have.
82x90.5x5.4rods 9.0:1. 110 cam. 40 Dels

Runs out of puff at 5000 but pulls like a 14yo schoolboy.

I got 83hp on Sunday at CBB whilst running real rich (new engine). I think with the right venturis, ratio rockers and a better flowing exhaust it should close in on 3 figures.

It will never be a race car but it is fun to drive.

Brendan

83 horse is suprisingly low for that size engine.

However I guess it goes to show that its not all about Hp! Did you get any indication of the torque curve, I'd be keen to see that.

I'm coming to the conclusion that good strong torque makes for a much more fun car. If you have to rev the crap out of an engine to make good power well that just makes for tiring driving and unwanted attention from the Police!

Cheers
Jeremy

I would have liked to see the torque curve...nice and flat I bet.

What exhaust are you running...please tell me its not a thunderbird or similar.

The difference with a merged 1 5/8 with a magnaflow muffler or just a 2 inch pipe that goes around the side and back through a quiter, performance muffler........one day I was killing everything I raced on the street and scaring people, the thing rusted out and I temporarily put on a tbird with a 2 and a 1/4 inch longer pipe and muffler.......I was only just holding off twin cam corollas.

IT HAS TO HAVE THE MERGED, PRYAMID SHAPED COLLECTOR. Without this all velocity and required backpressure dissappears....leaving the motor with no torque, smoothness or top end.

Let me know if you need help finding the right one..the back section you can make yourself.

Matt

Matt, Jeremy,
It is only a Genie exhaust and the carbs only have 32mm venturis hence probably the reason for the 83. It was also very rich (the LAMBDA never got over 0.8) This was the first time on rollers since the engine build so this is my starting point.

Unfortunately no torque curve on the printout however the HP curve is pretty straight from 2000 rpm through to 4500 rpm where it made it's HP (56 to 83 HP respectively). I spose the HP over the rev range shows why it is fun to drive on the street where you rarely get over 4500 rpm (well I don't anyway).

I deffinately will change the exhaust to a 1 1/2 merged header (yes I am in the market), with 36mm venturis, 1.25 ratio rockers and programmable curve hall effect ignition (might put that on this weekend).

I hope this gives Gorn a different perspective on stroker motors. This motor was never built as a race car. I did the head porting myself (opened and cleaned ports, matched manifolds, unshrouded valves, CCd) but there is much more I could do for top end HP.

One last thing is that you may think the cam is the wrong one for a 2110 (Engle 110) your right it probably is. I was originally going to build a 1915, bought the cam then decided on the 82mm crank. Decided to use it anyway.

Rightly or wrongly the reason I decided to go for the 2110 against the 1915 was for the driveability at low RPM. (this statement will probably be like a red rag to a bull for the 1915 fans!)

Regards
Brendan

Golde60 wrote:hey matt

what do you think about the 86 x 94 combo?

i reckon you're on the money with your idea of a big torquey engine rather than a grenade that only revs to 8k for a couple of months then kaboom!

i have been thinking that a 2387, with a tf1 aluminium case would do the job. not that its gonna happen anytime soon, just like the idea of building what i can of my own engine (very slowly)

It's the torquey engines that destroy cases and tend to die, not the 'revvers'. There is far less stress on components at high revs for a certain power/torque figure that the same output at lower revs. Less loads at higher revs = longer life

But the new cases are much stronger and can probably handle a backyarder hacking into its ribs with a die grinder better than the stockers...:duh

[Edited on 10/3/2005 by VWCOOL]

Torquey engines by their nature are generally the result of rod ratio. Short rods + large stroke = extra sideways stress on barrels, rings, gidgeon pins, etc and extra stress on crank and case. There is also the question of compression ratio which also puts stress on components. But having said that it is all relative, a torquey engine with 9.0:1 that rarely goes past 5000rpm as opposed to one with less torque and 12.0:1 that revs to 8000? What is the life expectancy of both. Hell I don't think anyone could work it out and argue that they are correct because there are so many other factors such as quality of valve train, balancing etc.

If you read in posts above apparently my crank will self destruct in 632 kilometers time. I don't think so! I don't rev it hard enough to worry about.

My 2c worth.

Brendan

Simple physics (F=m x a) means that higher revs create higher acceleration forces on the bottom end, conrods and gudgeon pin, and consequently higher forces. Its purely the amount of energy being generated (Ek=1/2mv^2).

Higher revs also means more wear, as the sliding components actually move further relative to en engine turning slower.

Why do F1 engines dies after 1 race ? it might have somethign to do with 18,000 - 19,000rpm.

Having said that, you can design and build a vw to run 7000rpm all day long (so to speak) if that is your plan from day 1 (just ask any pobjoy customer). Additionally, you can build strokers to pull stumps out of the ground all day long too, its simply different aspects of the build that become more important.

Yeah I was going to reply and suggest the high piston speeds might cause grief but then I thought about it a bit more and realised if you build both right then there is no reason why they both shouldn't last a long life!

I personally hardly ever drive past 4G in our 2.2 legacy as its got so much torque- it makes it really enjoyable to be able to pull out and over take (on our opposing state highways) without have to rev the crap out of the engine- or wait for it to arrive in its power band!

Cheers
Jeremy

My 2074 that I previously mentioned, I bought second hand off Kronk(muller) History was uncertain. as was the internals..it came complete with the car..4 wheel discs, porsche alloys, irs pan etc.

I proceeded to do an average of 650km per week for 3 years, racing every car I came upon..until finally with a university students service record( a couple of times)...she developed a #3 big end knock. I pulled it down, and it had 40x37.5 nice little port job..48 tri-jet dells, Welded crank(well done)...not exactly sure of the cam, although it had 1.25 rockers...probably touch bigger than a 110. On a rediculous budget Andrew rebuilt it using existing parts...new bearings and machine work from Bob Wymms for the Grand Total of $1100... I did another 30,000kms really hard then sold the motor only, back to Steve Muller who stuck it in his Rally car and won races for 2 seasons without pulling it down.(Might be Craigs current car..not sure..it had a 2275 that he blew?)

I do not think I will ever be so lucky again!

One of the keys to its life was it went hard down low, and I never had to rev it past 5k.

Matt

Doug Sweetman wrote:Simple physics (F=m x a) means that higher revs create higher acceleration forces on the bottom end, conrods and gudgeon pin, and consequently higher forces. Its purely the amount of energy being generated (Ek=1/2mv^2).

Higher revs also means more wear, as the sliding components actually move further relative to en engine turning slower.

Why do F1 engines dies after 1 race ? it might have somethign to do with 18,000 - 19,000rpm.

Having said that, you can design and build a vw to run 7000rpm all day long (so to speak) if that is your plan from day 1 (just ask any pobjoy customer). Additionally, you can build strokers to pull stumps out of the ground all day long too, its simply different aspects of the build that become more important.

Yeah, strokers can pull stumps out of the ground... but I reckon killing V8 Commodores is a lot more fun than gardening.. strokers often require hacking the case to get them in, are often of dubious quality crank from some dodgy US company and of course piston speeds go up don't they...😉
The Cima/Mahles with thier huge gudgeons etc are so unstressed at 8000rpm.. as are stock (prepped) rods with a stock stroke. Stress/strain is not an issue...

[Edited on 12/3/2005 by VWCOOL]

VWCOOL wrote:........, are often of dubious quality crank from some [edit] US company and ...

[Edited on 12/3/2005 by VWCOOL]

Aint that the truth.

After speaking with Craig (my counsellor!) I think my stroker plans have been shelved.

I've also been thinking, it might be fun to drive around with an engine in the 1500-5000 RPM range and blow off some ricers,
but how much cooler it'd be to do it from 1500 to 8000 !!

The 69mm stoke and 137mm rods gives a rod ratio of 1.98 - hows that for engine longevity.

There are quite a few 78mm cranks that require no clearancing at all, just pop them in(only takes a minute), and away you go...

My 2180 with full interior and 3 people in the car, still scared the shit out of everyone who went in it. My 1916 noticed when the tank was full and I had been to All you can eat Yum Cha. Thats why I like torquey engines....

There is no reason why you cannot have the stroker rev to 8000, and still have lovely big testicles down low.

Just quietly, I cannot stop eating red tulip bunnies and humpty dumpty eggs..Iam having one or 2 daily...has anyone else got this problem?

Matt

boof2332 wrote:Just quietly, I cannot stop eating red tulip bunnies and humpty dumpty eggs..Iam having one or 2 daily...has anyone else got this problem?

Matt

:duh

Lost me there Boof!!

For fear of people getting too serious over the stroker vs stock crank debate again, I just wanted to throw out a left field comment to show how things should stay fun.

Matt

Oh, cool.

No worries.