Aussieveedubbers · General Chit Chat

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https://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/threads/36319/no-subject

Chewy ·

Someones on acid.......




















That aint a '69

😀😀😀

68AutoBug ·

If looks like a 69 Beetle to Me....

USA Beetles had IRS rear from 1969 model...
USA Beetles had drum brakes all round > forever...


Lee

He must have been a bad bastard to go that far and then be rejected.....
{go back to earth} You bad Bastard......

Chewy ·

yea, well you can imagine......

only in America..

Anthiron ·

i just finished watching final destination and final destination 2. like 2 minutes ago. thats kinda freaky.

Che Castro ·

Bad acid trip man!

warb ·

"It was the summer of 1969"

nuff said....

Starbug ·

you know, it was perfectly normal to go driving around on the most powerful psychotropic drug known at that time...
made the drive a bit more... how shall we say... scenic :P

HotRodMatt ·

God botherers will do anything to appeal to a particular market...

Don't they know they won't line their tax-free coffers from vee-dubbers. Always either broke or tight-fisted.

Herbie ·

The funny thing is I have been all along that border of Tennesee and Missispi so I keep picturing all the different places he could be and what the surrounding would be like.

Its a shame he attributes his good fortune to a ficticious man made Entity.
Rather than his will to live and to Shock,

Why did this "God" find it neccasary to destroy his healthy body to start with?

There will be no better answer than "God works in Mysterious ways"

What a shame people cant think for themselves and follow the clues instead of jumping to a conclusion of "It Must Be an act Of God."
But then again, that part of the country is full of Christian Zombies.
So Much So that its actually scary and sickening.
You'll get hung from a tree in that part of the country if someone points to you and says you are the spawn of satan.

No doubt Zombies will now attack me!

[Edited on 15-3-2005 by Herbie]

Herbie ·

For the sake of people who aren't zombies, keep religious subjects off the forum,

This is Aussie Veedubbers, not the church of Aussie veedubbers.

Your signiature says plenty about your angle on life as does your post, as does your story about how your Grandmother decided that she had all the answers for the Chinese people who actually posess a religion of their own that they are happy with, and from what I've seen floggs christianity ten fold as far as making sense and doing good for mankind.
I have no problem with people who belive in a purpose but when they disresect the other people by trying to force or induce their religion on everyone else, I get very aggitated,
I am the man who loves to show christian door knockers how gullible they actually are, of course I am out voted by their peers and they will be rebrainwashed very quickly.
News flash, Man made God not the other way around.
you will get vicious critisicm from me if you start preaching on my favorite Car related forum.
Just because I am out voted by Zombies doesn't make me wrong.
9 million australian smokers must be onto something, we should give them the benifit of the doubt,
Maybe the Chinese outvote the christians, I'm pretty sure they do, so you should drop you religion and see their light.
See my point?
you can have great numbers of mislead people but that doesnt make it right.
Every War in History comes from a group of people who think they have the answer to whats right, clashing with another group of people who believe they actually have the answer, truth be known they are most likely both way off on a tangent.

Keep religion off the forum and everyone can be happy.
I dont want to see it on here and I'm sure most other people dont want christian propaganda all over their Volkwagen Forum.
Why dont you do something useful with your free time rather than preach, learn more about how things really work in the real world, find out about things that can be crossreferenced as accurate with out Blind Faith, Anything can be sold to someone with Blind faith.
Learn about how cancer affects people and work out how to stop it or
why other people believe different things and consider that they might actually understand more about the world than you or your army of Zombies, and that you may actually have a lot to learn.

Why dont you remove this post and make you'r signiature not related to religion and see how you go learning to accept other opinions as Valid instead of Patronising me and summoning your brothers in gullibility to your battle.
This Is a VW Forum and Not an Open field for Christian Propaganda.

Your antireligous propaganda fellow VW enthusiast,
Anthony

Che Castro ·

I agree too. I'm not exactly a fan of proselytizing. And don't get me started on Hillsong church or any of those pentecostal churches 🙂 I think people should find their faith rather than have it coerced on them.

Oh yeah, I think we should keep it off the forum too. Actually maybe we can start a VW bible? 😉

Lams ·

thanks for sharing jonno

i think religion should be allowed on the 'general chit chat' board, just like those tattooes i saw on the other thread? do you see any harm in this post?

you guys should leave him alone, if you don't like what you read then hit the 'back' button and go and read something else. no need to start chucking insults

Che Castro ·

But I think there is a line - the whole topic seems to be trying to push a religious christian agenda moreso than just discussing religion openly

wezley ·

The thing is, out right advertising is not allowed on this forum, I think..

That being the case, if someone asked where to get drop spindles, someone might reply that they have some.

If someone asked for a faith, then it would be fair to reply, although probably out of the scope of this forum.

Nobody requested this emotional piece of propaganda, especially the way it has been tied to the subject matter of the forum.

I know the original poster doesn't mean any harm by this story, its just that some might take offence, especially the conversion of the 'heathen' Chinese.. 😉

Herbie ·

Whats the real harm in Graphiti?
Why is it opposed?

I will resign completely from this forum if religion propaganda is encouraged.

They can co to www.ChristianPropaganda.com if they want to bat their eyelids and push their ideals.

I have many Christian friends, but they are the sort who do not try to show me how their way is unquestionably the right way, sanctafied by the only one true god. blah blah blah.

If you ignore Aids, does it go away?
No, it spreads to the unprepared.
So too religion is an infection that has killed many many times more people than aids or malaria.

I refuse to participate in assisting the infection by ignoring the religious disease carrier.

Abstain.

Queen_Bug ·

Two things that should never be discussed with other people are religion and politics....its just upsets and alienates everyone.

Lets just leave it at everyone is entitled to their own opinion you don't have to agree with it, but don't try and push yours on other people. Then we'll all get along.

HotRodMatt ·

religion and politics should be discussed and argued. Where ever people talk. This place is and has always been about more than just cars.

However blatant prosletising and "evangelism" should be avoided.

Has anyone noticed that this sort of thing is often sheilded from criticism? I bet if a post went up about how someone getting smashed up turned them to athiesm and how they now detest the idea of the "God of Love" it would quickly be deleted. Glad to see that at least from some people the reaction to this one is equitable.

The story above, like many of these "inspirational testimonials" are usually concocted by marketing experts. You will find the same story about a Chev or a horse or a set of skis if search for it...

bugboymatt ·

The old preachers gave up coming down our lane. Neighbour got hold of em once and invited them in !!! Little did they they know he was a true deviant. He took them into his study made them tea and proceeded to show them his free worldly magazines!! they couldn't get out fast enough !!! Once past the couple of rotties he had !!! Alas they never did come back again !!

Starbug ·

to tie this thread together...

one day i took some acid and saw god... he was driving a vw 😀

(not my personal belief, but im guessing it will keep everyone happy 😀 )

Boozer ·

if I get into this i'll regret it. so i'm gonna piss off now...God Rules!:thumb:jesus

Herbie ·

looks like the post has been withdrawn,
I am happy and have nothing more to upset anyone further.{ this line will soon be proven to be false, however I believed it at the time of Posting:thumb}

in an ideal world disscussing everything should be encouraged, but intelligent debate is apparently not natural but but it appears that fighting is.

Any moderators who want to delete this thread, its fine by me.
not that that matters particularly.😀

[Edited on 18-3-2005 by Herbie]

dodge ·

Sorry Herbie, deleting threads tends to make the rest of the system chuck a spak, so I'm not doing that. If the other moderators want to do that, its up to them.

Needless to say, I think religion is a subject that needs to be approached with caution. Talking about it is fine, but thats probably as far as it should go.

Everyone have a good day now! 😉

Che Castro ·

Jesus was a black man

Boozer ·

Che Castro wrote:Jesus was a black man
So!? What does that have to do with anything?

bugboymatt ·

Someone just at the door saying god is a women !!!

Lams ·

sorry guys, did not mean to offend anyone. although I don't think the title 'Christian Zombie' should be encouraged, even though I am a christian, a chinese (somewhere up there the chinese come into it) and a short bloke. not all christians are as shallow as that!

let's end arguing :jesus and talk about VWs? I think this place is one of the most peaceful places left on earth 😎 hope you guys wont kick me out now

HotRodMatt ·

Che Castro wrote:Jesus was a black man
Actually scholars tend more to the olive skinned light brown hair model. As the historical Jesus is referred as a Nazarene both in Judeo/Christian/Islamic texts as well as contemporary texts it fair to assume he came from the same area and had the same charcteristics as other Nazarenes or as they are better know "Zealots".

Nazarene does NOT mean from Nazareth. That town did not exist until some 600 years after Herod. It means Essene. An off-shoot of Judaism.

Given that accounts are correct about him being a carpenter one can also assume that he was of a stocky build rather than the thin guise he isusally portrayed. Carpeters routinely manhandled large slabs of timber, wrought heavy saws and beat heavy hammers. These carpenters would have developed a rather muscular physique.

ColumBUS ·

meh i reckon a good religious debate is better than a lot of the dribble that me and bugs come up with! bring it on hehehe...

but! i am not a fan of people getting upset frustrated etc etc... so if people gets offended then big man moderator shall come in and go squish.

by the way... is there meant to be a picture up? or a story? because i havent been able to see what the hell you're all talking about!

pete wood ·

Wow, Herb, whether your religious or not, you got a lot of anger there dude.

I'll be up front with you, I'm a committed Christian. Not only that but I'm currently studying at what most critics believe to be the most conservative bible college in the Southern Hemisphere. Most people would probably accuse me of being a fundamentalist.

However, I just like you, have serious problems with organised 'religion'. Does that surprise you?

You are also absolutely right when you say large numbers of followers don't make something right. The world, and the church for that matter, has been smashed and abused by people on a mission with more than questionable intents.

You say "man made God", at one time I might have agreed with you. Now, as you can see I think otherwise.

I'm not gonna beat you over the head with anything or give you a hard time. I just have one question...what if you're wrong and God did make Man?

Worth thinking about, that's all.

akean1 ·

Queen_Bug wrote:Two things that should never be discussed with other people are religion and politics....its just upsets and alienates everyone.

Lets just leave it at everyone is entitled to their own opinion you don't have to agree with it, but don't try and push yours on other people. Then we'll all get along.
HEAR HEAR, spot on queen bug!:thumb

Herbie ·

I was kicked out of religous instruction at school for debating with the teacher,
She told us that Jesus walked on water, and I pointed out that in the language that the original documentation was written she will find that the word for in and the word for on are actually one is the same.
So it stood to reason that if you wanted to impress someone with such a character, you would interperate the story as Jesus walking on water rather than Jesus walking in water.
That was enough to have me sent to the library for that first period each tuesday whilst the others were further brainwashed.
I didnt notice any Hinduism or Budism being taught at these religous instruction sessions,
Ironic?
Hardly,
Budists and Hindus dont seem to feel quite the same need to force their beliefs on others.
Thus began my spending of my time constructively to learn in the library instead of have my head filled with guilt and fear.
and Yes, Jesus would have looked more like Dany devito than the classic image we see today.
If you want to control people you need to unite them so they can be easily manipulated hence the birth of religions of all shapes and forms,

And fear of the unknown is a basic tool for recruitment, Like lets say, What if God created man? arent you scared to find out what will happen to you when you die?
Some will go, Oh my gosh, I might burn in hell for an eternity and there you have a new recruit,
If there is a God, I am sure he is mighty pissed at having his name used to wage war and make peoples life riddled with Guilt and Fear,
Any God who would want that from me can't be a god of any worth anyway.

bugboymatt ·

Oh my god !!
Right thats it i'm selling anything i have vw based!!! It's all just too much !!! now how much was that cbr i was looking at !!!then i can tell ya what it's like when i have died!.....................

ColumBUS ·

i was embraced as a top student in my religious studies as i was at constant debate with the teacher... i was however reprimanded when i showed the the teacher that in the times of the virgin mary, 'a vrigin' was a lady aged between 16-25... more like a mrs or ms rather than sexual status as we know it today.

i have noticed in many religious debates over the net that they rarely get heated... juicy yes, but not angry 'ooh i hate you christian' etc etc. i think theyre fun!

ill bet jesus drove a splitty!

boersch ·

odin>jesus

pete wood ·

Herbie wrote:She told us that Jesus walked on water, and I pointed out that in the language that the original documentation was written she will find that the word for in and the word for on are actually one is the same.
So it stood to reason that if you wanted to impress someone with such a character, you would interperate the story as Jesus walking on water rather than Jesus walking in water.
Matt 14:25,
int the original Koine Greek,
"peripatoan epi tairn thalassan" (that's how we'd pronounce it)
Translated literally; "walking on the water."
The Greek word for 'on' is epi. It can also be translated using 'to' or 'against', but leading scholars (non-christian scholars) agree that in this instance it is 'on'.

The greek word for 'in' is en.

Just wanted to clear that up.

Herb, God is not about riddling people's lives with guilt and or fear, or causing wars. People cause all of those things. But being God means he is God and therefore supreme. There are consequences for wrong actions, that's why people feel guilty.
Even you'd have to agree there is such a thing as right and wrong.

[Edited on 16/3/2005 by pete wood]

Herbie ·

Thats very true, people abuse religion and thats probably the thorn in my side, not so much any religion in itself.
I guess I have been witness to too much religion abuse.

I am curious to know why we are talking about the Greek language, were the scriptures that were hand selected for the bible for this portion written in greek?
I have been led to believe it was Hebrew, I am interested to find if I have actually been mislead in this matter,
Not that it will change my thoughts on the matter, but it wouldnt hurt to know if that is not actually the case with the translation.

Cheers Anthony

PS Can you tell I'm not so wound up about it now as its been withdrawn.
I'm sure Jonny777 is a cool dude, but I'm glad my objection was noted and further more agreed with as much as it was.
If you dont stand for something, you'll go for anything.

pete wood ·

You are right about Hebrew being a key biblical language, but that is only the case for the Old Testament (OT), that is all the books until Matthew. Although even some of those are even in slightly different dialect called Aramaic.

Everything after and including Matthew, that is the New Testament, was written in the Greek dialect of the day (1st century) called Koine Greek. Greek became the cheif language in the middle east after Alexander the Great (greek dude) conquered that part of the world a few hundred years before Jesus was born.

Now Jesus and most of Israel spoke Aramaic mostly, but the New Testament books seemed to have been written in Greek so that they could be spread all over the Roman empire to Jews living elsewhere, many of whom didn't speak Aramaic.

On a side note, Greek was so popular that the OT was translated into Greek about 100 years before Jesus was born. This version was called the LXX. The letters refer to the number of rabbis or priests or something involved. This Greek version was the standard for most Jews for many centuries after. It's also generally accepted that Jesus was fluent in Greek too.

Interesting stuff eh?

Might also interest you to know that the bible is regarded as the most reliable historical document of all time. There are literally thousands of accurate historical copies.

Heaps of people reckon Julius Caesar existed but there are only a handful of documents talking vaguely about him.

Yet, with all the copies of the bible floating around, some people like to say Jesus never existed. Some people... :o

Jonno777 ·

Anthony, I respect you and removed the post for that reason. It was obvious the guy's story wasn't welcome and I didn't want it to result in more trouble between us or anyone else here.

Glad to see you take it like a fellow dubber. You can call me the zombie with the kombi. :P

Herbie ·

I am sure Jesus existed,
and I'm sure that its quite natural to Nail someone up if they behave differently or seem too peaceful, cos that gets treated with suspicion.

No worries Jonno,
You just hit a nerve on a tender subject.

Its Ironic that he went against the grain, now anyone opposing his followers are today, going against the Grain.

I always think of Jesus as the Masiah from Monte pythons life of brian,
having the most innocent statement misconstrued and inflated out of context.
I guess we will never really know as none of us were actually there.

Accurate? most replicated sounds more realistic.
We can never really know just how accurate and In the correct context the Bible is because time has swallowed the unbiased evidence for comparison.

I bet the original litriature says Celebrate not Celibate.:thumb

ColumBUS ·

see there are so many problems with the new and old testament... for example... adam and eve. according to the old testament we are one biiig happy family, and we are all related in one way or another. now if adam and eve were the only couple, where on earth did all of these black people come from? caucasians asians africans europeans ugly people middle eastern... all from the same white couple?

and dont get me started on noahs ark

pete wood ·

Herb,
replicated is the right word. The copies all goes back to the original testimony of the guys who wrote the accounts of Jesus life, the gospels, and the early letter to the churches.

The gospels are interesting. They were all written by different guys from different perspectives. At least two were tradesmen and one was a doctor. Doctors deal with reality everyday and no tradesman i've ever met swallows bullsh#t.
If these guys hadn't seen it all with there own eyes and known it to be true they wouldn't have written it down. They had nothing to gain from it, in fact all Jesus apostles were killed eventually for following him. It wasn't until many centuries later that the christians got any real power. They were just persecuted, killed and tortured before that, all because they wouldn't worship the roman emperors of the time.

Kikko,
I won't go into great detail about Adam and Eve. There's way too much debate and too much misunderstanding to be had in this setting, but i'd be more happy to thrash it out over a beer anytime. I'm not too far from you.

Same goes for you Herb or anyone here, send me an email, and we can have a barbie and debate all this stuff if you want.

Also can I say, thanx for actually being willing to discuss the real questions instead of just bashing stuff indiscriminantly. 🙂

ColumBUS ·

as with you pete. good intellectual discussion.
and yes, beers are good we must do it sometime

dodge ·

Actually my father read a book once that proved the veracity of the bible from a mathematicians perspective.
If you look at the original transcripts of the bible in Hebrew and Greek, start at the beginning in Genesis, every single word (and sentence and therefore the whole book) in the bible is divisible by 7. The probability of a human composing such a thing is impossible.... so I guess you could deduce that the men who wrote the bible were influenced by something higher than themselves.
Dunno... guess it depends on the way you look at it 😉
Theres a website that looks at bible numerics if you're interested
(http://sigler.org/finnestad/bible.htm)

Che Castro ·

Hehe i was just joking when I said jeus was black. But he definitely did drive a splitty.

My view on the bible is that it is a historical document, and like any other historical document it has human errors and bias. i.e. it is not a fax from God. Also I don't interpret it literally, unlike a lot of Americans who believe in Creationism. Its something like 60% or 70% of Americans believe in it, compared to the rest of the developed world which is around less than 10% or so.

Caesar is mentioned in a lot more than just a handfull of documents, his head is embossed in a bit more than a handfull coins, there are a few busts, statues of him as well as being mentioned by a few different civilizations of the time.

There may be a lot of copies of the Bible, but there are also a lot of copies of the Da Vinci code (which is utter rubbish). I'm not discounting the bible, but I'm just trying to say that popularity does not equal credibility (I guess it probably diminishes it).

empi ·

Where has the pic gone i wanna see an accident , why is there talk of religion?????

HotRodMatt ·

As for the authors of the new testament...

The majority is attributed to a man whom his contemporaries thought was mad (Saul/Paul). He had no personal relationship with the historical figure of Jesus, yet called himself an Apostle after some dehydrated right brain "visions" (ie delirium). He wrote "moralistically" about the mores of the time and culture of which he was immersed - moral standards not "devine" standards - morals which the churches who accept this mans ravings purport to be the guidelines for living. It is also interesting to note that his are the only canonincal writings which carry his own authority ("I") rather than the will of his imaginary friend.

Don't forget how many Ecumenical Councils added and deleted books from what is know regarded as the bible.

Like any document regarding an historical period you need to review it against other sources. Including those the churches have tried to (and in many cases succeeded) supress.


If only divinity and other myths weren't tied up in the political life of Jesus would be very good for people to understand. Once you remove the selfish motivation of an eternal life of joy (after you die so you can't complain if it isn't there) and put some of the tennents of the Judeo/Christian/Islamic philosophy to practice for the good of real living people then maybe we wouldn't need the carrot of "heaven" to inspire egalitarianism and agape.

Don't be too worried about hell either. If you read the texts you will see that if you are happy now without "god" you will be happy later (if you believe you are more than worm food after dying) as hell is not given to us as fire and brimestone but simply abscence of god. To many people that sounds like heaven.

[Edited on 16-3-2005 by HotRodMatt]

ColumBUS ·

also according to sciptures, no one has yet entered heaven or hell. as the day of judgement has not come and it is said that the day of judgement shall be the day when heaven and hell's gates shall burst open and people can party.

so here we have billions upon billions of souls just kinda sittin round waiting for our tickets until we get so messed up the day of judgement cometh and kicketh our asses out of this world and into the next, then we can go in...

and yet when taught in school church etc. we are told when we die our spirit shall go to heaven or hell... no mention of this limbo that we have to wait for, possibly as it is not as enticing as heaven or as frightening as hell? its like those tiny disclaimers on mobile phone ads... costs nothing for the phone, but the plans gonna roll over you for around 2 years!

Herbie ·

If I go to Hell, it will be full of gorgeous young ladies all wanting to touch my body but they would have sealed over vaginas,and an adversion to oral sex,
and there would be constant music by jarule and 50 cent and all his croneys playing 24/7 and I couldn't turn it off
and of course there would be all these bloody christians blocking my view in all directions, and still trying to convince me of the meaning of things that no one really understands, despite all the evidence of their misguided efforts, like "Hello, you're in Hell."
Which makes a very Bable fish type loop in the scheme of things, doesnt it.
My Hell would have heaps of christians in it therefore something would have gone awefully wrong for the Christians.

Here is an interesting story
Hell is alledgedly well known for being hot in comparison to Heaven.


Is Hell exothermic or endothermic?






The following is supposedly an actual question given on a university chemistry exam. The answer by one student was so profound that the professor shared it with colleagues, via the Internet, which is, of course, why we now have the pleasure of enjoying it as well.





Bonus Question: Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat) or endothermic (absorbs heat)?



Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law (gas cools when it expands and heats when it is compressed) or some variant. One student, however, wrote the following:



First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So we need to know the rate at which souls are moving into Hell and the rate at which they are leaving. I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving. As for how many souls are entering Hell, let's look at the different Religions that exist in the world today. Most of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there is more than one of these religions and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all souls go to Hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in Hell to increase exponentially. Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in Hell because Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to expand proportionately as souls are added. This gives two possibilities:



1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose. 2. If Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over.



So which is it?



If we accept the postulate given to me by Teresa during my Freshman year that, "it will be a cold day in Hell before I sleep with you", and take into account the fact that I slept with her last night, then number 2 must be true, and thus I am sure that Hell is exothermic and has already frozen over. The corollary of this theory is that since Hell has frozen over, it follows that it is not accepting any more souls and is therefore, extinct...leaving only Heaven thereby proving the existence of a divine being which explains why, last night, Teresa kept shouting "Oh my God."



THIS STUDENT RECEIVED THE ONLY "A"

So there you have it,
Debating a topic at a BBQ or over a Beer with someone who has made a point of devoting their life to learning the Dogma of Christianity and all the appropriate answers for non believers sounds like hard futile work to me.
I would eventually grow wearing of the discussion as my life is not dedicated to the subject and it would become a life long debate,
a debate to the death as it were,
I'm not prepared to waste that much time.
to spend the sort of time and effort it would take to win a debate with a devout christian talking about god jesus and the bible means I may as well be one if I'm going to spend my life discussing the subject.
Therefore even the opposer loses in the long run as he has his life consumed by talking about god anyway.
I'm sure many a person has been worn down, confused and converted.

You need to debate these things with someone who is equally devoted to disproving christianity, an equal battle, now That would make for a great TV Show.
World series religous debating.
History Survey says,.......
No doubt it would result in another war, cos no one likes to be told that they are wrong especially if they are quite convinced that they are right.

Fundamentalists of anything are quite dangerous, for they believe that they are undeniably correct in their devotion, and they dont want it questioned in case they discover that they have been barking up the wrong tree all their life, everything they live for hinges on their being correct, they will fight to the death.
Its excactly this sort of devotion that allows people to walk into crowded puplic areas with explosives strapped to their chest in the belief that they are working for the greater good.

The world is so corupt and there are so many hidden agendas that one persons life time is not nearly enough to spend trying to find the real Truth about anything.
And even if you did, then you die and someone else starts to work it out all over again.
Its really not the main show, its a sideshow.
Dont focus on the wrong part of the story.
Create your own reality with your own new experiences,
it doesnt matter if your wrong in the long run, its not a test, its the adventure of life.



Although if religion was not being discussed a BBQ sounds quite good but I dont drink Beer much more than Urine, however White russians are my favourite at the moment, Once I learned you could have a Kaluah and milk with more alcohol, I was impressed.:beer

ColumBUS ·

i think you should all worship me... become fundamentalist fishtians!

herbie, id like to know your opinion of those who worship a living being for his teachings instead of a god. rastafarians worship haile silasse as a god for his teachings on the opression of the african race, spirituality etc etc. they do have a heaven and hell just not in the sense that we would think.

HotRodMatt ·

Herbie wrote:Fundamentalists of anything are quite dangerous
Have you ever noticed that the middle word in fundamentalist is MENTAL!

ColumBUS ·

therapist has THE RAPIST in it too... both dangerous people

HotRodMatt ·

Kroozin_Kikko wrote:also according to sciptures, no one has yet entered heaven or hell.
Wrong again Kikko. There is the doctrine of assumption. Most notably with Catholics and their dogma regarding the mother of Jesus (where you were half-right with the definition of virgin). The old and new testament has several texts from which the doctrine can be deduced, however there is no explicit mention of it (Enoch & Elijah for example).


*Virgin. The term indicated a woman who was "betrothed". The mariage was not completed until the woman was pregnant. If the husband (having already gone through two ceromonies) was absent during the gestation and the baby was born before the third and final ceremony it explains the virgin birth.








[Edited on 17-3-2005 by HotRodMatt]

Herbie ·

I would bet that the three wise men were much wiser than joseph, they knew what Mary Liked, thats how they knew Jesus was coming.

HotRodMatt ·

Three gifts. No mention in the myth about the number of wise men (Magi).

HotRodMatt ·

Just remembered another good one. "God" calls Noah a "just man and perfect".

Damn, is getting pissed and dancing around naked in front of your sons the picture of a man who is just and perfect?

[Edited on 17-3-2005 by HotRodMatt]

HotRodMatt ·

And Abraham - the godly and righteous - so godly and righteous he owned 318 slaves! [genesis 14:14]

Herbie ·

careful, you may convince yourself of its hipocraful teachings.

Jonno777 ·

I think the defining point for Noah and Abraham was that they both feared God. To God, that's more important than a person trying to be perfect to attain God's satisfaction (an impossibility).

(Gen 6:8) But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

That was very fortunant for Noah. :kiss

King David is described in 1 samuel 13:14.. as "the man after God's own heart", yet he arranged the killing of a woman's husband to sleep with his wife. David didn't escape the consequence of that sin, but God saw beyond error and into his heart. David rejoiced in God that he was forgiven, and still God's chosen.

[Edited on 17-3-2005 by Jonno777]

HotRodMatt ·

So David had to be forgiven his adultery where Hosea was told by god to go shagging.

The the offspring of Lot's incestuous daughters were gifted and feted.

And offereing your virgin (well that was a lie anyway) daughters to ravenous fornicators is ok too!

Damn. This is sounding better and better!


I have studied under the Moore College people. I can keep going if you like.

Starbug ·

if you need to have a belief/religion, then think of it this way...

17 billion years ago, a tiny mass of superdense matter exploded and started expanding.
everything we see, and everything we dont see, came from this tiny mass.
everything we think of came from this tiny mass
everything we are, and everything that has ever existed and will exist in the future came from this tiny mass.

EVERYTHING is inextricably linked to this tiny mass!

if god him/her/itself exists, then it only seems reasonable that they came from this tiny mass.
The question now is, where did this tiny mass come from? while there are many theories, we shall never know where this tiny mass came from because we just dont exist in the extra dimensions needed to make an educated guess.

if you need something thats bigger than you to fear/be humbled by, try this one out: the half life of a proton is 45 billion years. that gives us 28 billion years before half the protons in this universe are anihillated. By the law of conservation, energy can never die or be created, it just changes form. now, the energy released by this tiny mass 17 billion years ago somehow found a way to form matter, but matter eventually breaks down again, releasing energy.... nothing changes as energy is conserved. the energy we started with 17 billion years ago is the energy that we have got till... whatever happens to this universe...

this basically gives us 28 billion years to figure out a way to create matter out of energy, because in 28 billion years, half of everything you know will cease to exist....

as you can see, im not a religious person. my personal beliefs are governed by something thats bigger than all the gods put together: mathematics and science.

so by this reasoning, god didnt create the universe, the universe existed for a long time before god ever did.
so who created god?
probably the people who believe in him/her/it.

i think ive bored you all enough, so im not going to go into my theory of why there is religion....

[Edited on 17/3/2005 by Starbug]

pete wood ·

Starbuggy,
how did the suer dense bit of matter get there? what made it explode?
Science is great, but it only provides more questions, not answers.

Matt,
"knowledge puffs up", remember that one. The apostle Paul wasn't mad when he said that. I'd also like to know where you got the historical info on him from. Sounds like Bishop Spong to me.

I go to Moore College. Who did you study under?

[Edited on 17/3/2005 by pete wood]

eirecooled ·

the same question about super dense matter could be used to ask who made "god" with the same hypothetical answers used. I think my awe of god started going down hill when he stopped making plagues and floods and smyteing people. I think that would be a spectacular god. someone does something wrong "boom" lightning bolt, end of story!. And it would eliminate the judisical system and those bastard lawyers. If god came to earth what car do you think he would drive? 😉
p.s my favourite peice of graffiti said" god made athestist too?"
and when two tribes go to war with god on their side who wins? no one!

[Edited on 17/3/2005 by eirecooled]

Lams ·

just take a look at a chair. as simple as the chair is, someone had to create it.

how can a dog for example, or even a human being, just come by evolving over time by chance? there has to be a creator of some sort

science is great, but it just doesn't explain everything to me. That's the reason that I personally believe in the creation story and God the creator. what do you guys think?

eirecooled ·

the chair was created by need. everthing ever invented was created by need. all primative and not so primitive tribes had gods/idols to cover the need to explain the unanswered questions in life. if you find comfort in your beliefs and hold them dear to you, then good luck to you. But those same people should also respect the positive views and choices of the other people that share this planet.

HotRodMatt ·

It was more than 10 years ago I studied and research thru the college. Most of the people I had association with frankly I couldn't care to remember - there were no great minds there. One person with a keen and scholarly mind I did have good many many hours debating was the Canon Peter Kemp but he hadn't been there for years.

Info on Saul/Paul isn't to hard to find. A trip to the library of the Sydney School of Divinity will turn up plenty. I might have to even look through some of my own texts to show you within the cononised texts where it is clear that Saul/Paul is at the least megalomanical.

pete wood ·

Matt,
Peter Kemp is a great guy. Wise and mature, yet very humble and loving.

Saul was a Zealot prior to his conversion, however, post-conversion he was anything but meglomaniacal.

Matt and Herb,
However, I think this is becoming an issue of what you believe to be true vs what I believe to be true.

Personally, I believe that our Father God who loves and cares for us, specifically sent Jesus (his son) to earth, to the cross and raised him from death, so that he could return me to a right relationship with him and I could spend the rest of my life, now and in eternity, serving him as the Creator, Ruler and King of the Universe.

If,
I am wrong, I have only lost out on some money and few momentary pleasures.

But,
if I am right, nothing can compare to the promises Jesus Christ made to those who are faithful to him.

I bear no malice, I don't look down on anyone. I wish you agreed with me, but that is not the case. There, I've said my piece.

[Edited on 17/3/2005 by pete wood]

HotRodMatt ·

Pete I will u2u you a few things.

It's a shame you are pulling out. Isn't discussion and debate the gate to truth? Isn't that what people of the book and athiests have in common?

If anything is to be learned from rabbinic studies it is that where ever you have two there will be three opinions and you should never leave a discussion without at least testing your previous opinion.


Even a straw man has legs.

akean1 ·

anybody going for the earth (flat or round) sitting on the four astronomicly large elephants standing on the absoutly incomprehensably large turtle that wanders through some sort of space with the intention of hopefully finding another of its kind, and we as infentisamle micro organisms feeding on even more incmprehensably minute pieces of life just to survive theory?

HotRodMatt ·

A sloppy great giant flicks grease from his fingers.

One of these drops is our universe on its way to the floor.

Splat.

(apologies to William S. Burroughs)

akean1 ·

akean1 wrote:infentisamle
is that even a word? history holds a lot of myths, like chinese whispers, especialy through translations. i have beliefs i hold onto but i wont "know" for sure till im dead. i just try to go with what feels right, which is pretty hard to deciefer from what i was told by, or saw adults doing when i was younger.
there are a lot of interesting writings about history. i try not to take them to seriously incase someone stuffed up along the way.
we all know in our hearts the right and wrong thing to do. you dont need a book to tell you not to sleep with your neighbours wife, dont kill people, look after yourself, help your spieces, look after your enviournment etc.

pete wood ·

HotRodMatt wrote:If anything is to be learned from rabbinic studies it is that where ever you have two there will be three opinions and you should never leave a discussion without at least testing your previous opinion.
No offense, but I am not actually interested in Rabbinical studies. What is happening is that we have ceased to discuss things, and are instead just justifying our beliefs. Now that's ok. I don't mind that. That's why I stated my beliefs.

However, my beliefs are not going to change. What's more I do not believe that truth may be found through debate. That is Socrates speaking and is in my opinion flawed reason. No matter how much you debate something, wrong does not become right, nor good evil, nor dark light. Swallowing that is the same as lying to yourself for so long that it seems to be true.

I believe truth is to be found in God. There it is.

HotRodMatt ·

pete wood wrote:not actually interested in Rabbinical studies
Is that because they are prepared to open their beliefs to intellectual vigour?
What's more I do not believe that truth may be found through debate.
So only in dogma?

eirecooled ·

which god did you chose? your god gave you ears to hear, a mouth to speak and a brain to think. beliefs are taught/learnt. every kamakize pilot/ suicide bomber is promised that they are going on to a better place. I wonder how many of those guys that cashed in their chips would like their time over again? to deny any other opinion/choice is to deny the natural variety that goes on everyday we live. if you find comfort in your beliefs thats great. but to believe that there is only one way to live life is to limit your ability to learn. may your god go with you.

ColumBUS ·

oh and for the last time...

what on earth started this thread? was there a picture i missed somewhere? a link i dont see? what what what what am i missing out on?

Lams ·

I chose the God from the Bible, because from what I read and learn from the book, He is a God that makes the most sense to me. Please bear in mind, this is what I believe - I am not saying that this has to be true, because I think respecting what others believe in is crucial.

First of all, as I said before all things have to be created somehow. To me, evolution through time by chance just doesn't seem right. We all know how that it's a huge amount of work to create a Beetle (more for a Bus). There must be some superpower there with extraordinary knowledge and creativity to create something as complex as a human being, which can grow and maintain and think for him/herself!
Then there's the teachings of Jesus. He taught us to love your neighbour as yourself, and to love God. If everybody did just the first part, then this world would be so peaceful, everybody will live happily, there'll be no crime!
God created man without sin. but man sinned against God, and because God's heaven is a pure place, man cannot be brought up to be with God until they are sinless. So God sent Jesus Christ to die in the place of man, to bear the sin and take it all away. In the Bible it says when Jesus took all the sin on the cross, there was so much filth that even God couldnt bear to look at him!

That makes sense to me. The kamakaze pilots are promised a better place, but I don't think it's fair that others have to suffer because they want to go to a better place. I don't think it's fair either that the terrorists force people to become 'martyrs', promising them that they will be in paradise, when they didn't choose the path themselves.

You cannot force others to believe. All you can do is convince them, which is not the purpose of this post! I guess I'm just trying to clear a few things up

I think it's great that you guys and girls have opened up and allowed this discussion. If anybody finds anything offensive please U2U me and let me know

ColumBUS ·

yeah im lovin this thread too. same with me fellas is u think ive gone a bit too far let me know asap and its gone like snap.

now lams: i have a few quotes here from a website...it brings to light some very interesting points, maybe you can shed some light on this?

Did you know
that if you choose to be anything other than a Christian you'll suffer eternal damnation in the fiery pits of hell? It's true. It does not matter how good you are or how many orphans you've fed, if you are not a Christian you will not go to heaven! It's written in the Christian bible somewhere!

(here he lists a few non christians thats are going to hell... the popes, walt disney, mother teresa, the elephant man, ghandi and steven jay hawkings.. all going to hell!)

and did you know that everyone who died before Christ died went to hell? (This is all merely speculation on my part.) This includes Mary's parents and their parents and so on!
This goes all the way back to Adam and Eve and their kids! It's all really astounding if you think about it. I'm guessing that anyone who died while Jesus lived went to hell as well. If there is any Christian out there who can explain to me what happens in this scenario I am keen for answers.
Now there is one loophole for anyone who dies after Jesus. What is that you ask? Well, if you accept Christ into your heart while you lay on your death bed, no matter how bad you've been, God has to let you into heaven! It's a fact. You can spend your whole life raping babies and pissen' in collection plates, then if you confess your sins and accept Jesus as your savior, he has to let you into heaven!

end quote
any rebuttal to this?

Starbug ·

well, if we must be "created"... i'll say..

the universe created life so it would have a way to think about itself.

the stuff of life (as we know it... and probably as we could only dream of knowing it) is out there in ENORMOUS amounts... water, hydrocarbons, oxygen, ammonia... all these lovely life giving chemicals can be found in vast quantities any run of the mill accretion disk (the disk of "stuff" that spins around a newly forming star... used in making planets and asteroids and life....) the right time and the right place (and theres alot of right time right places in a universe such as ours) and a bolt of lightning and bam... youve got nucleic acids joining up all over the place... coming together in synergy, raining out of big murky clouds... give it some more time and some more zapping and you have... prokaryotic life!

why havent we achieved this fusing of DNA/making life in laboratories? well... weve really only had the technology to even think about doing this for 50 years... thats a pretty miniscule time compared to how long it took for things to be just right on this planet!

ever heard of the drake equation?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation

so even if 1 billionth of all the stars in the universe had life... thats A LOT A LOT of life to be had.
and if 1 divine being created all this life simultaneously?
thats a lot a lot of life to be created at the same time over distances so large that the mind breaks down just thinking about it.

next time you go to the beach, look at all the sand... now think about all the grains of sand on this planet... thats NOWHERE near the amount of stars in this universe.

physics has progressed so far over the past 200 years that we can now pretty much KNOW what happened from the first 30 seconds onwards of the big bang... why dont we know what happened during those 30 seconds, or indeed, before (where this super-dense matter came from) the answer is simple...
we dont have the physics for that yet, but one day, we will.

200 years ago we believed that atoms were the be all and end all... indivisible... nowadays we rip them to shreds and watch as they rip themselves to shreds and think "oh, well isnt that interesting" and then dawdle off down to the pub to talk about how we can up the power on our particle accelerator and make the 118th element (which just happens to be a noble/inert gas) by smashing bits of atoms together at really high speeds... not unlike the first few minutes of the big bang!

scientists believe that there is not but one universe, there are litterally billions upon trillions upon a googolplex of them, all sitting like a huge sponge.
some of them are just right for life as we know it, some annihilate themselves in a nanosecond, some have too much negative matter, some have time that flows like ours, some have time that flows in the opposite direction... think about the capacity for all those different gods! but then again, if there is only one god, then they arent really sticking up for their boo-boos are they? (whats the point of being a creator if your creation ceases to exist after a few nanoseconds?)


i have a theory that religion/belief in a higher being is actually an evolutionary process that all higher life forms have to experience... its very long and interesting, but will probably piss alot of people off so i wont mention it here, that is unless you really want to hear about it 😉

[Edited on 17/3/2005 by Starbug]

eirecooled ·

good to see this discussion has not lowered itself down to name calling and accusations. debate is good, mass debate is better.:thumb

ColumBUS ·

starbug i think i know what your theory entails... i would love to hear about it.

pete wood ·

HotRodMatt wrote:Is that because they are prepared to open their beliefs to intellectual vigour?
That depends what you call intellectual vigour. Rabbinical studies from my observations seem to move further and further away from foundations until there is little left to stand on.
So only in dogma?
If you want to call what I think Dogma, that's your opinion.

Now,
Your assumption that truth can be found in debate is based on 2 foundations. Firstly that one or other of the parties has the truth. Secondly that one or both parties is willing to move from their position to accept this truth.

Now You don't believe I have the truth, and I don't believe you have the truth, and neither of us is prepared to move from our positions, therefore, no truth will be found in this discussion. It is just an exchange of words.

So I say again, lets leave it where it is. 😉


[Edited on 17/3/2005 by pete wood]

Che Castro ·

I think it is a weak argument to say that since humans are so complex, so there had to be a creator. It is a big assumption that has nothing to back it up. Humans evolving from apes makes a lot more sense than the whole human race going back to a single man and woman in the garden of Eden. Evolution has holes in it, but it is the most rational explanation of why, where and how we are here. God made the world in 7 days? as starbuggy said before there is good evidence to suggest that we are not the only life in this universe.

Did God exist before religion existed? I tend to believe religion and God is something that exists in people's minds, not in our physical world

HotRodMatt ·

pete wood wrote:Your assumption that truth can be found in debate is based on 2 foundations. Firstly that one or other of the parties has the truth. Secondly that one or both parties is willing to move from their position to accept this truth.
No. Clearly the concept of conversion is too ingrained to accept that the only way to truth is through investigation and challenge. Neither party need to have the truth to find the truth - it is a long long journey. Hence you missed the point above that where 2 are gathered there will be three (or more) opinions.

and neither of us is prepared to move from our positions, therefore, no truth will be found in this discussion.
That is incredibly arrogant. You have no idea of what will move me from my position. You may be locked into your opinion, I have an open mind. I will never say that I am right. That is the difference between one who seeks truth and one who accepts dogma (a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true).

Herbie ·

Starbug,

Please tell us your theory, it sounds to me to be well worth cunsuming,

I am glad too, that there is a good level of inteligent discussion happening here now,

you dont often get to hear a decent disscussion on this topic without people getting offended and upset,
{guilty as Charged}

But when people can show how they come to think the way they do, by making reference to information they have consumed, it makes for an educational experience.

It is hard to reason with people who dont need reason because they have faith.

I have faith in my ability to reason!
So bring on the education from every angle, I would much rather learn more about what people believe and why they believe it than have an arguement about dodgie christian recruitment teqniques.

I believe its a sign of intelligence to keep asking the questions and to be open minded with your opinion,
You keep learning till you die, so learn about as much as you can, learn about all sorts of different beliefs, feel no obligation to adopt any of them, but purely to learn about them.
Richard Dawkins makes a lot of sense to me with his ideas.
Click here to learn about Richard Dawkins

I first learned of him on the ABC about 13 years ago, he was a friend of Douglas Adams {Author of the hitch hikers Guide to the Galaxy} and was part of an interview with Douglas reguarding his the the latest fith book in his H.H.G.T.T.G Trilogy.:duh
They then also had an interview with Richard Dawkins straight afterwards on another show.
He Explains with great reason why Religion even exists, How it was created, Why it was created, He talks about spending your time wisely and learning as much as you possibly can from your natural Physical environment.
There are no "Just believe it because its what God likes" type of scenario.
And Like Douglas Adams listed in his first H.H.G.T.T.G. book,
in a conversation between God and Man, where God states GOD: you dont need proof, you should have faith, Proof denies faith, and without Faith I am Nothing,
MAN: But the Babelfish is a dead Giveaway isnt it?, It Proves you exist, so therefore you dont. Q.E.D.
God says, Oh I hadn't thought about that and promptly vanishes in a puff of Logic.
That was Easy says Man and goes on to prove that Black is white and wite is black and gets killed on the next Zebra crossing.



If in our minds we can prove that God Does not really exist then he will vanish in a puff of logic.

So I am keen to see God proven not to exist, by intelligent discussion here and Now. only the ones with blind faith shall remain convinced of Gods existence, because for them, He Does.
Oh and we can ponder our existence as we drive our VWs.

ColumBUS ·

i have many theories on religion, but many are a little controversial. u2u me if you would like to hear a few.

also if you want to hear a very very interesting theory on creation, the world, gods etc etc. pick up raymod e. Feist's rage of a demon king (volume three of the serpentwar saga) near the end of the book a very ood group of protagonists end up discussing how the universe was created, why, and why good and evil things happen. of course it is based within a fantastical world of demons and other dimensions, but underlying therein is a wonderfully fascinating theory to the meaning of life and religion themselves

Che Castro ·

Faith is irrational

Jonno777 ·

Che Castro wrote:I think it is a weak argument to say that since humans are so complex, so there had to be a creator.
Hey Jon, within the confines of evolution, which came first, the chook or the egg?

Evolutionists understand that it takes millions to billions of years for gradual change to take place. I think I find it easier to believe God created the foul of the air on the fifth day, than believe chickens existed for millions of years without reproductive means (the egg concept had to evolve).

The creation / evolution topic can be very fascinating, and it can be baffling from both ends given the diversity of thought. The thing for a Christian as myself though, is that creation doesn't need to be proven for me to believe in God. It's only that Jesus Christ has revealed Himself to me, that I can look at birds, fish, chooks and eggs and see God's handiwork.

"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not" (John 1:3-5).
God made the world in 7 days? as starbuggy said before there is good evidence to suggest that we are not the only life in this universe.
To my knowledge the Bible doesn't say that there isn't life outside of this universe, it just doesn't say that there is. The argument doesn't disprove seven days of creation. John in the New Testament (as quoted above) affirms that all things that exist were created by God (that includes planet Zerg if it exists).

ColumBUS ·

so johnno, are you a young earth creationist? (yes i have been reading dawkins), as in you refuse to see the proof of objects being billions of years old, and believe the old testament literally in saying that the earth and the universe is only thousands of years old?

Che Castro ·

My point was that Genesis is metaphorical and it was written by humans. Where did they pull this from? its obviously not from any kind of reasoned and rational observation.

The first organisms were asexual and made identical copies of themselves - however they evolved to sexual animals through favourable mutations. So there originally was no egg.

HotRodMatt ·

Genesis is clearly metaphorical. Those fundaMENTALists who take it literally are not only out of their tree (about time they came out of the tree and EVOLVED) but obviously can't read the poem.

On the first day...
1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
So light and dark is created - day and night. Then, oh yeah better create something to make the light THREE DAYS LATER!
1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

Like all creation myths, from the Aztecs to the Hindus and even the Koories - they are simple tales, none to be taken literally.

Starbug ·

i thought this was particularly poignant (from dawkins site)

Modern physicists sometimes wax a bit mystical when they contemplate questions such as why the big bang happened when it did, why the laws of physics are these laws and not those laws, why the universe exists at all, and so on. Sometimes physicists may resort to saying that there is an inner core of mystery that we don't understand, and perhaps never can; and they may then say that perhaps this inner core of mystery is another name for God. Or in Stephen Hawkings's words, if we understand these things, we shall perhaps "know the mind of God."


The trouble is that God in this sophisticated, physicist's sense bears no resemblance to the God of the Bible or any other religion. If a physicist says God is another name for Planck's constant, or God is a superstring, we should take it as a picturesque metaphorical way of saying that the nature of superstrings or the value of Planck's constant is a profound mystery. It has obviously not the smallest connection with a being capable of forgiving sins, a being who might listen to prayers, who cares about whether or not the Sabbath begins at 5pm or 6pm, whether you wear a veil or have a bit of arm showing; and no connection whatever with a being capable of imposing a death penalty on His son to expiate the sins of the world before and after he was born.

so god is the fundamentals of physics? i dont see anything to be feared and worshiped in that...
taking the premise that god is planck's constant (as an example) god did not exist before the big bang, (physics as we know it did not exist before the big bang) so therefore it stands that god did not create the universe, the universe created god.
to follow on from this... this particular part of the multi-verse (recall the sponge theory i wrote about earlier) we inhabit, has its own particular physics, its own particular chemistry, its own particular time flow, and perhaps its own particular mathematics(a bit iffy on this... numbers are pretty fundamental and difficult to disprove). other universes may have some similar, others will be hugely different! it stands to reason that what is plancks constant in this universe is not equivalent in another universe, or even doesnt exist in that other universe... do we have a multiple god theory? what we may call god here is not god somewhere else.

ok, so, my theory on religion.

if you look around you, every day you will see examples of the predator-prey relationship. dogs kill cats, cats kill mice, mice eat plants etc etc etc. not so long ago in the evolutionary scheme of things we were prey for something as well. we had to watch our every move when looking for food so we didnt get eaten by something much bigger and stronger than us.
back then, we had something to fear. back then, if we didnt watch our step, we would get killed.
so then we evolved this enormous brain, which enabled us to realise science, and slowly we stopped being the hunted, and we became THE hunter. we took other animals in as our friends and learnt to work symbiotically with them so we would both be fed and protected.
we in essence, became the top of the food chain, and we didnt have anything to fear anymore...but we are still animals... and instinct takes a long time to breed out.

now as many of you would know, fear is one of the most powerful emotions/instincts. not just for humans but for EVERY animal. and fear is a very very difficult thing to let go of, even when it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever (i.e fear of spiders, heights, chickens... whatever)
youre afraid of something, and you'll keep being afraid of it even when you know you shouldnt.

so here we go from this situation where we as a species have many things to fear, to virtually nothing to fear... remember that fear is an instinct that keeps us on our toes and our minds alert... so what do we do?
we CREATE something to fear. we create that all encompassing and irrational concept which is god...
whats so irrational about god? we used to fear things that we could see, and that could see us. now that we have evolved, we fear something we cannot see, but that can see us. blind faith.

so thousands of years pass by and we become really technologically advanced and we start to utilise more of that nice big brain we have evolved to have... we have science and art and music, cooking and communication and socialisation. we as a species have become supremely adaptable to anything we can think of...
and less and less people are believing in that one supreme being...
back when we stopped being the hunted and became the hunter, we used religion/belief to explain what we saw around us. we now have got so many explanations for the world around us that using a supreme being as an explanation seems a bit of a cop-out and an excuse not to use our brains. most of us like to think, we like to make the most of this wonderful lump of computing power in our heads... saying that things are the way they are because someone else made it that way just doesnt cut the mustard with alot of people anymore. we are in essence, evolving out of religion, out of belief of a supreme power because it is an irrational fear, it holds no benefit to our evolution and so we are evolving out of it.

many animals on this planet are almost as intelligent as we are (certain apes, dolphins, elephants) and it will be interesting to examine in the future when they evolve to the top of their food chains and enter the technology cycle, wether they too will evolve the concept of religion.

Starbug ·

sorry, that was pretty long, and sorry if it rubs anyone up the wrong way.

Herbie ·

Thats what I enjoy, a statement that makes sense, a statement that doesnt require you to accept anything as granted, but to question everything you are told and to use your brain to work it out.

ColumBUS ·

well said starbug well said!

like i said mine are also loong, but possibly worth it. might post them soon

pete wood ·

HotRodMatt wrote:Neither party need to have the truth to find the truth - it is a long long journey.

My question is, then where do we find the truth? It has to come from somewhere, and truth logically must be absolute.
The truth I believe is in the bible.
and neither of us is prepared to move from our positions, therefore, no truth will be found in this discussion.
That is incredibly arrogant. You have no idea of what will move me from my position. You may be locked into your opinion, I have an open mind. I will never say that I am right. That is the difference between one who seeks truth and one who accepts dogma (a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true).
I'm sorry if I misunderstood you, I was just calling it as I saw it.

Lets take a different tack. If you critically assess the bible to be inaccurate, flawed and/or incorrect, then you are inferring it is wrong and not the truth. So what you are in effect saying is that your position is correct. That's ok. There is nothing wrong with saying you are right. I might not agree but so what. The trite post-modern 'Dogma' of relativism has told us it not ok to say someone elses beliefs are wrong. Don't be sucked in to that. If you think someone is wrong then just say, say it nicely but say it.

Now, you said I don't know what might move you from your position. I didn't get the impression you wanted to move. I was mistaken. What are you looking for? What is it that you hope to find?

[Edited on 18/3/2005 by pete wood]

ColumBUS ·

what hotrodmatt is saying is that through discussion debate etc, the truth can be found, it might be one persons perspective it may be anothers, or it may be that through discussion and debate that logic appears due to the debate process... argument, rebuttal, lather rinse repeat.

the more questions asked the more answers revealed. the more answers revelaed the more logic and sense things make. in this particular debate it will not happen overnight, but it will happen.

anyone else notice how much the religious debate resembles shampoo?

this is a topic so complex that it will possibly take thousands of years to truly find an aswer, and by then its possible three things will have happened...

A) supreme overlord of the universe takes over the earth and bans religion altogether as he has proof and records of what REALLY happens

B) supreme overlord of the universe takes over the earth and shows us a new religion as he has proof and records of what REALLY happens.

C) I take over and we all become lazy dreadlocked rastas.

take your pick... kikko for supreme overlord of the universe!
P.S. sorry to kinda ruin the mood but i believe there has to be an elemnt of humour in any topic of debate, otherwise people on both sides get cranky and they have to take a timeout.

[Edited on 18-3-2005 by Kroozin_Kikko]

pete wood ·

Starbuggy,

Waxing philosophical is one thing, but science is built on theories. A number of these theories are well proven. A whole nother bunch are taken for granted. People often forget this.

Let's not group all religions together either, they are not the same. Each one is different in very important ways.

You want to blow them off fair enough. Christianity seems to copping some of the heavier blows. But, I believe the bible is right.

I want to ask you, what if the God of the bible is the God of reality?

I figured out the consequences for me if I'm wrong. What about you.

ColumBUS ·

well i guess we're going to hell... party at satans place... byo water and chips

Jonno777 ·

Kroozin_Kikko wrote:so johnno, are you a young earth creationist? (yes i have been reading dawkins), as in you refuse to see the proof of objects being billions of years old, and believe the old testament literally in saying that the earth and the universe is only thousands of years old?
That's right Kikko, and I question evidence which proves objects being billions of years old. 😉

pete wood ·

Jonno,
one day we're all gonna get u back for starting this thread....😀

ColumBUS ·

i think we're all going to sit back and laugh at this one day when supreme overlord of the universe settles it for us

Jonno777 ·

The first organisms were asexual and made identical copies of themselves - however they evolved to sexual animals through favourable mutations. So there originally was no egg.
So the egg only came about...after the chicken came about? :P

Could you help me with this one, Jon. :duh Seriously, I'm interested in how the egg/chicken (or chicken/egg) thing started in your opinion. u2u if you like.

Boozer ·

Kroozin_Kikko wrote:i think we're all going to sit back and laugh at this one day when supreme overlord of the universe settles it for us
You mean you?

ColumBUS ·

but of course boozer, who else?

Jonno777 ·

pete wood wrote:Jonno,
one day we're all gonna get u back for starting this thread....😀
haha.. hey 5 pages. I think we could make 10 at least, especially when Jon explains how the chicken came before the egg. 😉

Boozer ·

Kroozin_Kikko wrote:but of course boozer, who else?
me.

ColumBUS ·

he already has... but heres my story

when we began as single cell organisms, we reporduced asexually... an exact copy of the original being, over time these cells evolved into muticellular amphibic life... these amphibians laid eggs on the bottom of the oceans in which they were fertilised by each other (at this stage all were still hermaphrodites) as evolution continues along time many of these creatures spent more time on land than underwater, and thus our first land walking creatures came to be. a few million years later... reptillian animals known as dinosaurs came to be, and at the very end of their time some had evolved leathery wings with which they could fly, one species even evolved feathers. it was known as the archaeopterix. but it was reptillian still, and thus it laid eggs. it was labelled the first 'bird' to have ever existed. reptillian features are still noticeable in birds today, ie; their feet.

to put it simply, i think the egg came to be way before the chicken. no one ever said it was a chickens egg we were talking about...

Herbie ·

the chicken can not be seperated from the egg, eggs are little chickens,

the chicken evolved from more basic organisms and being an egg is part of being a chicken,

being a chicken is part of being an egg and being an egg is part of being a chicken, they evolved together as one creature for the purpose of the survival of a Gene.

In the Book, "The Selfish Gene" Dawkins explains that a chicken is simply an egg's way of creating another egg, a human being is a gene's way of replicating itself.

Click here to Check out "the Selfish Gene"

Che Castro ·

Somewhere down the line asexual organisms mutated and reproduced with another organism which gained favourable traits from both parents. This mutation was favourable in their environment and the species survived.

there are lots of organisms which are sexual and asexual. For example common grass can reproduce asexually, but it can also let off its seed in the wind so it can spread its growth and adapt to local conditions by mixing its genes.

Even if you try to disprove evolution, it is a hell of a lot more rational than just blindly believing a metaphoric ancient document written by humans.

Starbug ·

pete: if god is the be all and end all of reality, then when that day comes and god makes themself known, either through visual confirmation, or, as is more likely a case, turning up unexpectedly in someones fiendishly difficult equation... then i will think about it.

my point is, science can wax philosophical, but they also have the sums right there to back up their philosophies. all this multiple universe and superstrings and beginning of the universe (i have plenty of nice thick books dealing with this stuff in my bookcase)... its all there in numbers which someone/s have painstakingly worked out. some theories may not be right, but at least they have the math there if they are!

has anyone tried to prove god mathematically?

pete wood ·

Starbuggy,
If God created everything, then he also created maths. Trying to describe him using maths is like trying to describe what my character and lifeplans are by measuring my beachbuggy. All those thick books were written by men. Men are God's creation, his greatest creation, but still his creation. The Creator measures the creation and not the other way round because, God the Creator is outside his creation.

Science is at it's heart, is an effort to explain what we see around us by measuring and inspecting it. Science is not at it's heart at odds with God. The bible doesn't tell us everything about creation, and God gave us great minds to explore his creation and enjoy it.

Now, many people have tried to figure out what God is like using his creation as measuring stick. The scientific term for it is 'natural theology'. In the end it is extremely tentative. Using natural theology we can only really say these sorts of things; He provides day and night, rain and sunshine, warmth etc for us. He provides us with the ability to multiply and prosper. He made the universe in an ordered way. All these facts can be measured using maths. However, none of them describe who God is personally or what his plan is.

That is why he came to earth as a man to speak with us and tell us what he is like and what his plan is. That man is Jesus Christ. His words are recorded in the bible.

Herbie ·

If god created everything........
there goes the objective angle right there.
If we are to assume this as true without any real back up, we can proceed to swallow all sorts of assumptions without Question.

If the sky is pink then all the people who see a blue sky must be mislead,
or Alternatively, the Sky is not Pink and God did not create anything because he is an imaginary figure.

eirecooled ·

so are you saying that you believe, because you fear the consequences of if you are wrong? Isn't that using fear and intimadation to maintain a control measure over a group? if the answer was god then,what was the question? If there is an all seeing compassionate god why would he want us to bow down to him and collect money and make wars in his name. wouldn't he be happy to just see us reach enlightenment and realise that he is why we are here. If people need their faith to cope with their day to day lives, then I do not believe people should disresept or try to change them. lets hope that they also show the same respect for their fellow passengers on this planet hurtling through the cosmos.

[Edited on 18/3/2005 by eirecooled]

Che Castro ·

yes, that is a big "IF"

psychobuggers ·

The words u r all using are from the english language and were slowly put together and educated to the peasants merely to control and to attain some order, we se the word God which should really be spoken as good and then if we turn it around the opposite to God is dog, just as the opposite to live is evil, take the d from dog and you have devil, so the oppostite to life is death, so we are threatened with evil behaviour bringing us before the devil and I could go on about this forever but by the 1500's the average english population had been frightened by a flying dog, hence the devil appearing as a bat like creature and all these things have been injected into our European culture and just as several other cultures have there own belief, I think you'll find that most of it is designed to keep law and order, you can quote all the scripts you wish, if you look deeply enough you will probably see more clearly, to live your life christian like would result in no doubt a fairly resonable lifestyle if everyone was to do the same even if you took God and satan out of the equation. What we do know for a fact is the present, make the most of it and certainly live without fear. The only way you are going to know the facts is by dying and nobody's coming back to let us know. I personally put faith in myself and hope that if there is a God I haven't done anything to offensive and he's watching over me. Let's face it if he is what they say he'd be one cool ally and as far as I can gather it's the other dude that gives you all the punishment and punishment is what I don' t like, hang on a minute, now I'm talking s**t, I'm oughta here and back to the shed, I've got VW's to play with!!!!

jenz58 ·

Did God create what is written or men in their quest for power and control??

Ancient scripts thousands of years ago maybe have been more pure...but try and read between the lines now days....

The bible became law...it was writen by people wanting to control thier particular society at a given time...hence the differnet bibles and editions...it is rewritten to suit the times of a given society....

Then we had secular governments in modernised western countries...the bible became less powerful but still does hold power for some....

Because you do not believe all you read in the bible as true does not mean that you do not beleive in a higher being....a creator...All cultures and civilisations believe in the creator...God....there must be something in it??

Chicken and the egg....the selfish gene....cloning...does away with the egg....and sperm....a very hot subject...and very scary if used by the wrong people ....

God created man to think....and be able to create...hence all our sciences and arts...we are amazing creatures...and the most cruel at times

In an even highwer scheme of things....is our god the creator or was he created..one of many?? Is he really infalible??? Is everything that is created perfect...as intended....until you create you never know...then you have to somehow control or remake the creation if it's not operating in the desired way...even destroy something??

As horrible as it may seems maybe our desasters are meant to make us stop and think about what we are all doing...many lives many be lost as we've seen lasdt Boxing Day.....it seems to work for a while but then we all get on with the crap we were doing when something happened....some don't even notice

Hey it's a big subject...😀

What was the first post that started this discussion...I couldn't get the pic up??

winerot ·

LSD

eirecooled ·

limited slip differential.... what has that got to do with this thread?

ColumBUS ·

it began with a story that has been deleted jenz ill pass it on.

hmmm so man viewpoints to argue

there is a god and he controls everything we do
there is a creator but he's more like a kid whos got an antfarm
there is no god
there are many gods - worship one or die
there is a god and his name is kroozin kikko

myself... i have no god but i live by the teachings of a man wha was believed to be posessed by a god: i dont believe that part but what he wrote and spoke makes so much sense. heaven and hell are a state of mind, not some imaginary place where the only way to find it is death...

in my honest opinion, majority religions such as christriany, catholicism etc were created by those in power as a measure of control. the bible is a set of rules cleverly masked in fiction to subliminally control. those who did not conform to that rulers religion (rules) were punished killed exiled etc.
what better way to make kids pay attention... do this and this and this or you will spend eternity in a blazing inferno of torture and malice and shaq movies.
notice how women have no rights in the bible? thats because they had no rights at the time, and thats because its the way they wanted it to stay forever.

dont get me wrong, im totally open to anything that comes my way, but what i hate is when people try to shove their religion in your face. for example i did some stand up in camden late last year aspart of a yr 10 formal entertainment, later that evening one of the parents approachedme and asked me if i could do a routine at her church... the rest of the night she was at my neck bashing me with a bible and how much of a contribution i could make to gods cause! yeah right! more like get more donations in the plate.

jenz58 ·

kikko we have a lot to talk about when we meet next week lol

...know what you mean *jenz decides not to use Jesus smilie this time*

Yep...I wonder who the ultimate god is though???

I can really relate to the kid with d ant farm analogy :tree

ColumBUS ·

jenz im not gonna be at the nats, im going to have to posess the body of pyro for a conversation. im on a hiking competition that weekend, i promise ill take photos!

jenz58 ·

OK....just wink twice if it's you talking when see pyro

Excuse me...but you on a hiking comp??? Sorta doesn't go with the image I've had.....you're a complex young man 😀

ColumBUS ·

yeah im a big kid but thats why im there, the rest of the team rushes ahead i carry the stacks of weight while they get a good spot in the line for activities - the hike is points based.

we can talk more about dragonskin in the late night dubbers club to avoid thread hijacking... ummm... i dont believe in god (now its relevant!)

pete wood ·

eirecooled wrote:so are you saying that you believe, because you fear the consequences of if you are wrong?
Nope I don't fear them, If I'm right I've got so much to gain. If I'm wrong I don't really think I've lost much. For me it is not about fear.

And the bible wasn't written to control the masses. It was written to tell people about God. That's all. What's the problem? Does it make you feel threatened?

BTW, can can you guys attack one at a time please, it's a bit hard to respond otherwise. 😉

[Edited on 18/3/2005 by pete wood]

ColumBUS ·

we're not attacking, simply expressing our opinions.

how would you feel if you did find out there was no god? i mean ur currently devoting ur life to it all/ its an interesting question to ask.

what would happen to the world if we truly discovered that there was no god? or that there was one god and that everyone else was wrong?

i think there would be more wars then than there ever will be now.

Starbug ·

winerot wrote:LSD
yes please :thumb

pete wood ·

Kroozin_Kikko wrote:we're not attacking, simply expressing our opinions.
Settle, I was just stirring you up :P
how would you feel if you did find out there was no god? i mean ur currently devoting ur life to it all/ its an interesting question to ask.

what would happen to the world if we truly discovered that there was no god? or that there was one god and that everyone else was wrong?

i think there would be more wars then than there ever will be now.
If I'm wrong then I'm stuffed I spose. But I really don't think I'm wrong. I was very skeptical before I was a Christian. You can't imagine how surprised I was when I realised, all of a sudden that God was real, and that the bible was right. What's more, my conversion had nothing to do we being manipulated or guilted in any way.

~air fooled~ ·

hey i'll step up to the plate and have a few words, gotta pass time at work hehehe:P:P:P

i was born into a christian family, nearly drowned at my my baptism in the local schools pool (bastards! hahaha), and whilst i believe in god and live my life in his mould the best i can, i no longer go to church.

i have become disillusioned with the commercialism that is modern religion and the group mentality that occurs within those walls. the bottom line is that i am a questioning person and i see too many people believing without thinking beacause 'the pastor knows all'. he may be a holy man, yet a falliable man still....

my beef is not with god, but how many people choose to teach his words today.

i'll tell you a story that may reflect where i am coming from. my parents went to the same church for 20 years. my mum never had as much faith and devotion as my father, yet tried her best to be a good christian and never miss church. my dad had been run over when i was 1, and ended up being hospitalised for a year and getting a trachaotomy, one of those tubes sticking in your throat so you can breath. he donated $20 000 towards building a new church out of his $70 000 payout from being run over, yet has never been treated like one of 'them'. same with mum. the church had all these clicky groups, not exactly the open arms that they are supposed to be...dad never had a true friend from there, every time he was in need, no-one was about. every time one of these people who rejected him were in need, he was there for them. my mum stopped going to church as she could see it was all bullshit there, too many selfish people behaving one day a week.

my dad had suffered brain damage when he had been run over, something that you couldnt notice unless you lived with him, otherwise he was a perfectly normal man. for a long time behind closed doors he was violent, but religiously violent. he use to use the bible for ammo and be spitting out verses as he threw things and us about the house. when we told the pastor, my father was pretty much isolated, and rumours were spread.
a few years back mum finally had enough of my dad and got him committed
to a mental hospital where he stayed for nearly a year. now my father who had gone to church twice on sundays and numerous bible studies through the week for 20 years sat at that hospital for nearly a without 1 single visitor from the church. no pastor, no deacons, no 'friends'. my dad was the most giving man you could find, utterlley selfless and forgiving (except to me and my mother) to anyone in the church for 20 years straight and again, no one was there for him. no-one questioned why this dude who never missed a sunday session in 20 years didnt turn up for 2 months in a row...initially we didnt tell the church as we didnt want it spread that he had mental problems, that wasnt going to do him any favours with that bunch, but my nana and aunty ended up telling the pastor and asking him to see my father. the pastor never came, the church never prayed for him, all they did was spin rumours as the news was leaked.

anyway, thats just part of everything... i am angry at the way my family has been treated by the church,and i have been to other places since, though nothing changes... i find more peace and contentment within myself then i do with the unquestioning sheep within those walls. i live my life the best and kindest i can, pray not enough but try none the less....

one day i may give another church a chance, but i'm pretty damaged you see..

anyway, thats my 2 cents...

pete wood ·

Airfooled;

Man, I'm so sorry, you are right, that doesn't sound like a supportive and loving church to me.

I'm also sorry that you guys feel so far away from God because of the way you were treated. I too have had terrible suffering through a bad church experience.

I also grew up in a christian Family. We went to church each week and I myself accepted the truth about Jesus when I was in year 11. When I was about 20, something terrible happened. A very close friend of mine, who had been running the youth group with her husband, attempted suicide. Then we found out why.
Her and her husband had been having marriage problems. The minister had been counciling them. In the context of that counciling he had sought to set them against eachother so he could proposition her. He sexually abused her for several months. She didn't tell anyone becasue she didn't want to ruin the church for everyone else, and besides she had no self-esteem and thought no-one would believe her. One day she couldn't handle it anymore. She took a whole lot of pills and tried to die.

At first everyone thought she was complicit in the sexual relationship, then everyone realised that the minister was lying to them.

Another woman, also a friend, who had left under weird circumstances came out and told everyone, he done a similar thing to her. Only when she refused him, he'd threaten to tell her abusive husband she was having an affair.

The church exploded and split down the middle. Many of the people I grew up with never went back. They will never trust a minister again. I myself was enraged for a long time. I saw the minister in question driving down the road one day and it was all I could do to stop myself driving him off the road in my car.
Worse still, the church powers bungled it totally, the minister wasn't disciplined properly and he's still at the church.

All of my family has been traumatised by this situation. My mother still had an issue with ministers and church Heirachy. Still is still meeting with senior church officials to try and get this guy kicked out.

I will never recover fully from that situation and I still have major problems trusting ministers, which is really weird because I am becoming one. The only thing I have to stand on is this. Jesus loves the people who trust in him. Churches are made up those people, and they mistakes, lots of mistakes.

I don't mind telling you I feel like crying now, telling you this is really hard. (sound of Pete blowing his nose)

But the thing is, people need good godly men to lead churches and kick Christians in the butt when they don't love other people like they should. Most Christian ministers are good guys who are trying to do the right thing.

Whether you go back to church or not, I can understand if you don't, just remember Jesus came to save after everyone, especially the sick, the abused and the rejected, keep on trusting in him.

Herbie ·

The whole concept of forgiving sins is a cop out.
It encourages people to sin for a start as they know if they go to church they can get the forgiveness, so they can start fresh on Monday.
Thats so Hippocritical, put it gets impressionable bums on seats in churches.

It also amazes me that any ficticious being refered to as god, can be refferred to as "OUR" God, thats a trap If I ever saw one,
Feels a little too petty to object to the statement but its the thin edge of the wedge that religous groups use to open you up to the
"Join Us" Principal, if we dont say, Whoah, Hang on, "OUR" God, since when did your beliefs become "OUR" beliefs? then we have already taken the first step into getting bamboozled by their distorted sense of reason, And I personally find it quite Patronising and unsettling.
Someone who uses this teqnique either is well aware of what they are doing and working at being deceptive;
or does not see that the reference to "OUR" is improper because they never questioned it when it was first served up to them.

Child Phycology 101:
Q. Are you coming inside with a smack or with out a smack billy?
A. Without a smack Mum/Dad
Response, Thats good Billy.

Here the question of whether Billy is coming inside is removed as an option by stating it as fact but giving Billy the freedom to Choose whether he will be recieving a smack or not, because humans like to choose, its part of having a brain that we can use.

This is a quote from JENZ 58 {I'm not having a go at Jenz 58, I'm just using the statements as an example of what I am Talking about.

"Did God create what is written or men in their quest for power and control??"
and
"Yep...I wonder who the ultimate god is though???"

These statements remove the question of Whether there actually is a God and Replaces the Question with an assumed fact. Much like Billy coming inside, there is no Question its just the way it is. Because thats what you need to tell Billy to control his behavior, otherwise he is likely to say,
" no, I'm going for a walk to see what interesting things I can find!"

instead, it focuses on a question that hasn't earned the right to be asked in this context, as it is built on grand Assumptions that the questionee has already agreed that God Does indeed exist without a doubt.

If I say, "I wonder if the mathematical formula 3+2=7 is a blue fact or a red fact????"
most people would question why I am concerned about it being red or blue rather than bieng a flawed formula, because its easy to prove that 3+2=5 and not 7, only the slow, or gullible will join forces with the Question poser and ponder the attributes of why it might be red or why it might be blue
with the Question of God you could be a lot sharper and yet miss the trap, but theres plenty who walk right into it.
To be truly accurate with such a topic you need to answer each Question in order from most important to least important, and if you cant actually work out the answer to Question 1. "Is There A God?" then proceeding to any further questions where God is assumed to exist is a recipe for disaster.

Why Dont we start with What Does "Exist" mean?
does it mean can we touch it? can we see it?
if so then does my child hood memory exist, It cant be touched or seen by anyone. only remembered by me.

Lets find a definition for "EXIST", we'll get to "Does Language shape our thoughts?" later

These are the enties into www.dictionary.com for "EXIST"

1. To have actual being; be real.

2. To have life; live: one of the worst actors that ever existed.

3. To live at a minimal level; subsist: barely enough income on which to exist.

4. To continue to be; persist: old customs that still exist in rural areas.

5. To be present under certain circumstances or in a specified place; occur: “Wealth and poverty exist in every demographic category” (Thomas G. Exter).




So.... Does God exist?




[Edited on 19-3-2005 by Herbie]

pete wood ·

I say yes, to all of the above definitions, but I suspect you tell me otherwise.

Herbie ·

to be real,
If we look in the dictionary,
Real is identified as
Heres the link

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11 entries found for real.
re·al1 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rl, rl)
adj.

Being or occurring in fact or actuality; having verifiable existence: real objects; a real illness.
True and actual; not imaginary, alleged, or ideal: real people, not ghosts; a film based on real life.
Of or founded on practical matters and concerns: a recent graduate experiencing the real world for the first time.
Genuine and authentic; not artificial or spurious: real mink; real humility.
Being no less than what is stated; worthy of the name: a real friend.
Free of pretense, falsehood, or affectation: tourists hoping for a real experience on the guided tour.
Not to be taken lightly; serious: in real trouble.
Philosophy. Existing objectively in the world regardless of subjectivity or conventions of thought or language.
Relating to, being, or having value reckoned by actual purchasing power: real income; real growth.
Physics. Of, relating to, or being an image formed by light rays that converge in space.
Mathematics. Of, relating to, or being a real number.
Law. Of or relating to stationary or fixed property, such as buildings or land.

adv. Informal
Very: I'm real sorry about that.

n.
A thing or whole having actual existence. Often used with the: theories beyond the realm of the real.
Mathematics. A real number.

Idiom:
for real Slang
Truly so in fact or actuality: “Is this place for real? A wolf in a... leisure suit and a cow in a print dress wait patiently on the couch in the lobby” (Teresa Carson).


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[Middle English, from Old French, from Late Latin relis, from Latin rs, thing. See r- in Indo-European Roots.]
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realness n.
Synonyms: real, 1actual, true, existent
These adjectives mean not being imaginary but having verifiable existence. Real implies authenticity, genuineness, or factuality: Don't lose the bracelet; it's made of real gold. She showed real sympathy for my predicament. Actual means existing and not merely potential or possible: “rocks, trees... the actual world” (Henry David Thoreau). True implies consistency with fact, reality, or actuality: “It is undesirable to believe a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true” (Bertrand Russell). Existent applies to what has life or being: Much of the beluga caviar existent in the world is found near the Caspian Sea. See also synonyms at authentic




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[Portuguese, royal, real, from Latin rglis, royal. See real2.]

[Download or Buy Now]
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

re·al2 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-äl)
n. pl. re·als or re·al·es (-äls)
A silver coin formerly used in Spain and Latin America.


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[Spanish, royal, real, from Latin rglis, royal, from rx, rg-, king. See reg- in Indo-European Roots.]

[Download or Buy Now]
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.


real

In addition to the idiom beginning with real, also see for real; get real.



Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of Idioms by Christine Ammer.
Copyright © 1997 by The Christine Ammer 1992 Trust. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company.


Main Entry: real
Function: adjective
Etymology: Anglo-French, concerning land, property, or things (rather than persons), from Middle French, from Medieval Latin and Late Latin; Medieval Latin realis relating to things (in law), from Late Latin, actual, from Latin res thing, fact
1 a : of or relating to real property <a real action> —see also real property at PROPERTY b in the civil law of Louisiana : attached to a thing rather than a person <a real obligation is transferred along with the thing to which it is attached> —see also REAL RIGHT —compare PERSONAL
2 : ACTUAL
3 : adjusted for inflation esp. to reflect actual purchasing power <real income>


Source: Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.


real

adj 1: being or occurring in fact or actuality; having verified existence; not illusory; "real objects"; "real people; not ghosts"; "a film based on real life"; "a real illness"; "real humility"; "Life is real! Life is earnest!"- Longfellow [syn: existent] [ant: unreal] 2: no less than what is stated; worthy of the name; "the real reason"; "real war"; "a real friend"; "a real woman"; "meat and potatoes--I call that a real meal"; "it's time he had a real job"; "it's no penny-ante job--he's making real money" [syn: real(a)] [ant: unreal] 3: being or reflecting the essential or genuine character of something; "her actual motive"; "a literal solitude like a desert"- G.K.Chesterton; "a genuine dilemma" [syn: actual, genuine, literal] 4: not synthetic or spurious; of real or natural origin; "real mink"; "true gold" [syn: true] 5: not to be taken lightly; "statistics demonstrate that poverty and unemployment are very real problems"; "to the man sleeping regularly in doorways homelessness is real" 6: possible to be treated as fact; "tangible evidence"; "his brief time as Prime Minister brought few real benefits to the poor" [syn: tangible] 7: being value measured in terms of purchasing power; "real prices"; "real income"; "real wages" [ant: nominal] 8: having substance or capable of being treated as fact; not imaginary; "the substantial world"; "a mere dream, neither substantial nor practical"; "most ponderous and substantial things"- Shakespeare [syn: substantial, material] [ant: insubstantial] 9: (of property) fixed or immovable; "real property consists of land and buildings; real estate" 10: coinciding with reality; "perceptual error...has a surprising resemblance to veridical perception"- F.A.Olafson [syn: veridical] 11: founded on practical matters; "a recent graduate experiencing the real world for the first time" n 1: any rational or irrational number [syn: real number] 2: an old small silver Spanish coin adv : used as intensifiers; `real' is sometimes used informally for `really'; `rattling' is informal; "she was very gifted"; "he played very well"; "a really enjoyable evening"; "I'm real sorry about it"; "a rattling good yarn" [syn: very, really, rattling]


Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University


real



1. Not simulated. Often used as a specific antonym to
virtual in any of its jargon senses.

2. <mathematics> real number.

[Jargon File]

(1997-03-12)



Source: The Free On-line Dictionary of Computing, © 1993-2004 Denis Howe


real

adj. Not simulated. Often used as a specific antonym to
virtual in any of its jargon senses.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


To me, this says "NO"
God can not be described as "real" or "Actual" but can easily be described as imaginary.
With no more realness than just a thought.
there is no geographical location where god resides in any part of the universe.
you cannot touch God in the phycal world.
He is no more real than my thoughts about fruit.

Show me how Your God is "Real" in anything more than a thought!
with concise proof for everyone to see, so I can rest corrected.
For something to exist in someones mind does not make it real,
For something to exist in many minds, still does not make it real.

pete wood ·

Herb,
you're probably not going to be satified with this answer, but here it is.

My God is real because he came to earth 2000 years ago as a man to prove it. That man is Jesus.

Here's the thing though, even the people who should have followed him, refused to acknowledge it. Even in the presence of unquestionable, amazing evidence, they refused to acknowledge it. And he knew they would.

But it got worse. They saw Jesus as too much of a threat to their power, so they set him up and had him killed for disagreeing with their fascist legalistic regime. Not becuase he was a political revolutionary, he wasn't.

You're probably not going to acknowledge this answer either, but that is up to you.


[Edited on 19/3/2005 by pete wood]

Herbie ·

Nothing really offends me about Jesus, he was probably a real cool dude,
He cant be linked to your god any more than Me saying I am the Son of your God.

Did Jesus really profess to being God or his son? or was that what he was refered to by others with their own agendas,
Why am I asking you anyway, No Offence, but you were not there, you merely spend a lot of time absorbing propaganda, and I seem to be spending a lot of time challenging the well entrenched brainwash that has been rife for thousands of years across the world.

There are none so blind as those who will not see, Jerimiah 20, {Maybe I could be wrong, I'm not well versed in the writings of the bible as It stopped making sense on the first page so I put it down.}
What a statement, it works in both directions, I am blind because I wont see faith and you are blind because you wont see reason.
Its a quote from the Bible, yes but that means nothing more than its a quote from the bible that relates well to human nature.

Sounds to me like things will always be the same, If I were to claim to be gods son or god, and took it seriously then I would probably suffer the same fate as Jesus, although today I would be pronounced dead only if I was actually dead, as medicne has come along way in 2000 years.

You already stepped over the "does god exist?"Question by making the assumption that he does a fact, by stating that He came to earth as Jesus,
I'll give you Jesus existed, but we still dont have any actual proof that God Exists.

---------------------------------------

As the redneck said to the reporter, "I know the King, an dats eem, Elvis was hiding in that there dumpster, I startled heem and he ran off into the woods"

the eyewitness account Doesnt make it true, regardless of what the Souther alabama man believed he saw.

even if he makes 6 trillion copies of his testamony, it still doesnt make it a fact.

CB Hotdog ·

Oh My God

Lams ·

Anthony, I think a very important starting point here is whether you believe in the bible or not. If you think it is full of made up stories, then I guess we'll never get out of this thread.

The Bible is written by tens of different people. But somehow they all write about the same things. Just because Pete was there when Jesus was around, doesn't mean Jesus didn't exist! All you have to do is flip through the first 4 books in the New Testament and find that the 4 disciples all wrote about the same events.

Jesus claimed to be the son of God. He didn't just say it though, he performed numerous miracles in front of all these people. He also taught the people how to live. He was getting way too popular for the Pharisee's likings, that's why he was crucified. I somehow don't think you'll suffer the same fate as Jesus - I'm not saying you're not popular, I'm sure everybody knows you as the owner of the Love Bug, but you're not really going to get up the government's nerves are you?

So the bible said all that. If you believe that the bible is a lie, then it's going to be really difficult for me to find any facts or quotes!

man I missed this thread for 2 days and it's grown 2 pages. I havent done this much reading in months!

Herbie ·

you should investigate who put the bible together and why?

many scriptures were omited for one reason or another,

these scriptures didnt just come together by themselves now did they?

Most of what the bible says seems to hinge from the assumption of alledged facts, without taking these alegations as facts, you cant believe any of it.

Starbug ·

i think what we all really need to remember here is the bible is a historical document of some sort.

history = his story, the way that someone chose to portray a particular event or person.
thousands of people in america nowadays choose to portray bush as a wonderful and kind person... others dont take a bar of this... but whos story gets out to the most people? the one that sounds the best.

remember, history is a story... and unless you are right there, its a story. im sure you could make up a portrayal of events and it wouldnt match up with someone elses, but to another person it will.

im doing a psychology subject at uni this semester, and we have been exploring memory and eyewitness accounts and how people choose to portray what they see... language is a big cue, so is how someone feels at the time... do you see where im going with this? jesus disciples hung out with him and their stories are the way they are because of how they were influenced by both jesus and the world around them... they thought he was a cool guy, they wanted other people to think he was a cool guy... what better way to make everyone believe he was a cool guy than by claiming he was the son of god.

im sure some people feel the same way about dubyah right now...

Starbug ·

to go into this further... just say we could RECORD on tape/dvd everything that ever happened anywhere.
the camera has a perfectly objective view of everything that goes on, this cannot be said for humans who need to relate everything they see to something internal/experienced to understand it.

so we take this objective history as captured by the camera, and we get a few people to watch it.

each person will see this objective history in a different way to eachother. sure, they will see the same thing, and agree on the body of the history that has been presented, but each person will see certain things differently (someone will see a dog chase a cat, someone will see a cat run across the road...)
each person will determine the validity of the history presented to them in accordance with their feelings and their mood, and what they consider is right and wrong.

just because a few people who were there consider that jesus was the son of god, does not make him the son of god.

E ·

I wish I had jumped on this bandwagon earlier, could have had a lot of input. Oh well, it was satan's wish for me not to.

wezley ·

A camera is not an 'objective' tool, whilst I agree that people interpet information differently, don't forget that the person operating the camera also has a bias. Ie what to shoot, cropping, lighting etc..

This is why its such an effective tool to portray emotion, and a huge industry is built around that...

Lams ·

I agree that without any facts, it is easy to think that the bible is made up. Those who really are intersted can skim through this page


'How do you know the bible is true?'
http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/b_proof.shtml

akean1 ·

that site talks about type one and type two, but no mention of type 3's?:blush

Starbug ·

wezley... i know when people use cameras theres no objectivity in it whatsoever... they are capturing their thoughts in an expressible form for the masses.

im talking about a camera as in a "totally automated surveillance camera" for every single square millimeter of this wide blue planet for every single direction... no-ones operating them, so no creative licence or fuzzy emotional shots or dark portrayals or whatnot.
just a plain capture of every single moment of time. basically a non-biased historical recording of what happens when it happens and how it happens. its almost big brother/1984-ish...

speaking of which, dont some facets of the bibles teachings, like a benevolent god which watches over everyone and makes sure that unmarried couples arent doing it, and that no-one is coveting their neighbours daughter or whatnot....
its a bit big brother you know.

ColumBUS ·

do i smell a LaVey satanist among our ranks E?

the manner in which the bible is written makes it very hard to believe. perhaps if it were more direct and less extravagant, contradictory, and long winded it could make more sense.

did you know a lot of christians have not read the bible? sure they have read passages and hymns but not the whole thing... perhaps if more people had read the bible along with other religious texts and 'bibles' ie the kouran. back to front, they may realise where things go wrong...

for example, the noahs ark story. there is A) no way of fitting 2 of every animal onto a boat of any kind, B) no way of knowing whether the whole world flooded or not.

old school translations go awry as well, as we mentioned a few pages ago the words virgin (mary) and the walked on/in water situation make things worse, people need to read fact before they put their life into fiction.

i have a couple of questions for the faithful... what is your position on the tourin shroud and the dead sea scrolls? do you believe they have religious signifigance? do you think the tourin shroud is authentic? what do you think lies encoded in the dead sea scrolls?

pete wood ·

um Kikko,
the shroud of turin is a just bit of cloth, I don't think it means much at all. If it is Jesus shroud, it just proves to me that he isn't in it any more, ie he's not dead, otherwise he'd still be wearing it.

as for the dead sea scrolls, people have already translated them. they were written by a Jewish sect somewhere round the time Jesus was around, but nowhere near him. From what I know about them they haven't effected bible scholars much except they confirmed what people already though about some bits of the old testament.

the short answer is, not much significance really.

E ·

No, satanism just makes more sense in the contemporary world than applied christianity. Christianity is not a full religion as a lot of its constituent parts were censored by the Catholic church a millenia ago. The Dead Sea Scrolls contain such information which isn't included in the Bible, Old or New.

To me the whole notion of faith is baffling, simply because I do not connect spiritually with any religious teachings. This doesn't mean I'm right though. However, because I think it is impossible for any objective truth to exist, I cannot fathom a universal creator or vast spiritual being, which in my mind would make such a statement false (i.e. there are universal truths).

Hey, a question for the Faithful, If God is without flaw, can he create something which is flawed (i.e. humanity). And don't say because we have free will, because If God exists then he created the laws to free will and they would be perfect, thus denying us any possibility of doing wrong.

I'm an atheist.

eirecooled ·

how about some formulas to ponder:
faith + bible - evidence = god
science + knowledge - faith = no god
The common denominator in the equation is FAITH. this is a human trait that science can not find or answer. like the guy who is trapped by an earthquake under a building and has faith that he will be rescued is always going to last longer than the guy who thinks he is done for and gives up. now the person that has faith in god does not need to find god to live his life, but it focuses his beliefs to a end point eg: death. even if there is no god, his faith will stay with him till he draws his final breath. thus he lived his life the way he saw fit. there is no harm in beliving there is a god, the only problem is when his faith is used to make him a tool of another agenda that I have a problem with religion eg: interchurch fighting, religious crusades, fundalmentists, zealots. belief in god harms no one.

jenz58 ·

A camera is not objectivbe at anytime....it is capturing movement...a moment....but we have no idea as to the content....it is a fragment of of one moment of may.....

As people have said...we all interpret an action, object or picture in so many different ways...everything has more than one interpretation...one may be more true than the others if more facts are known...

People have been chasing the truthy for thousands of years....there is no one truth....maybe you think you've found the truth but more questions come up and the search goes ..... people who believe they know the truth are fooling themselves...so much more to learn

Maybe we are all the sons and daughters of God....what is meant by SON?

If God is the creator of all then we are the sons and daughters of God as well...

Buddha and Mohamed are also sons of God....both with inspired teachings....all three can be seen as Avatars... a god made visibly present..."Avatara" which means "descent" and usually implies a deliberate descent into mortal realms for special purposes

....as with Christianity...Islam has been corrupted by political tyrants

Buddism also but is perhaps the most tolerant...I tend to lean that way...but don't claim a religion as I don't like being too fixed in my beliefs...I like to be open and find good in all...they have all had their purpose social for centuries...to create laws for a society to live by...health...birth control...economics...social mores/morals/ethics

Jonno777 ·

Hey, a question for the Faithful, If God is without flaw, can he create something which is flawed (i.e. humanity). And don't say because we have free will, because If God exists then he created the laws to free will and they would be perfect, thus denying us any possibility of doing wrong.

I'm an atheist.
If God created the laws of "free will", they can be perfect and yet allow choice for evil or disobedience (Lucifer, the leading angel, wanted to be grater than God; Adam chose to eat of the forbidden fruit, etc). God's perfect laws can obviously allow tragic consequences.

To say God can't work with such a law is to make an assumption of what God's limitations are.

PS: Satanists must acknowledge God if they are sincere to understand where Satan came from. Satan himself acknowledges Jesus Christ as the Son of God.

[Edited on 20-3-2005 by Jonno777]

jenz58 ·

We have two fallen Angels Lucifer and Ahiman

Lucifer tempts us to dwell in the past, or rather to allow the past to overshadow the present. To the extent that our thoughts are of regret of our past actions, or inaction, or a stubborn reluctance to deviate from past approaches, we are firmly in the clutches of Lucifer. When we dream of what might have been “If only I had …”, Lucifer laughs at how easy it is to keep us locked in a trance of self-pity and martyrdom

Ahriman’s focus is to tempt us to keep our consciousness in the future. He continually seeks to fill us with fear, anxiety, and worry about future events that demand our immediate attention. We don’t have time to meditate as we have too many worrying problems to attend to, or escape from – into our favorite addiction. If Ahriman can keep us worrying and fretting about our future, we never experience the present. In succumbing to the temptation of Ahriman, we let the future into the present too early. In doing so, we have again removed our ability to attune to

It's all about balance...remember the past and learn from what we've done...good and bad....Dream of a good future....because dreams keep us going ahead...but live fully in the now...

It's a hard call hey? :jesus

eirecooled ·

I only dream of volkswagens! does that make me good or evil.


I am evil homer....I am evil homer....I am evil homer....I am evil homer....I am evil homer....I am evil homer....I am evil homer....I am evil homer....

jenz58 ·

...we live in the now with our VW's....

Hmmmm.... I think Ahriman has me sometimes when I'm dreaming too much of adding a splittie to my collection 😀

ColumBUS ·

wow, im out of touch with christianity...

when you want to talk about rastafarians, bhuddists, bahai or druids, let me know

Herbie ·

Still no proof of GODS Existence!

:vader

why cant we find a definition of God?

So far we have found God to be an Imaginary way to describe what we dont understand.

Some people may feel the need to "Believe" because it makes them feel warm and Fury, which is perfectly fine, thats a choice each person can make,

But if they cant prove it to be fact in the proper sense of the word, which doesn't need Blind faith, then they should Never never never present it to others as a fact, for they shall find themselves copping the scorn of their peers.

I would love to start a class action law suit against the distributors of the bible for not stating that "the following pages are translated,altered, hand chosen stories compiled to depict a certain view and should not in any way be confused with an unbiased account of history."

Heck thats what the Catholic church wants to do to Dan Brown regarding "The Davinci Code" however you can actually trace the steps of the Davinci code with much better eveidence of truths.

There is Safety in Numbers, there also appears to be gullability, and the desire for the like minded to join forces as a huge misguided cult.

What we see today is the result of some very old Cults, who as by the nature of Cults spend much time ensuring that they are the one true cult and must remove all other cults who oppose their beliefs.

Wisdom and awareness of their own environment has made more people think for themselves in recent times, as today, stories can be Quickly checked, cross referenced and then classified as true or false because of the advancments in communication technology including the internet.


Oh and "E", Johnny 777 has got a good point there, you cant have believe in satan without first believing in god.
The 5 spirits of the Pentacle cannot protect you from Demons without first believing that God Exists, which makes satanism just as illogical as Christianity or most other religions.
I studdied Crowley many years ago and soon found that it all added up to nothing more that Affirmations.
You dont need the candles or the bat sweat, you just need to believe, and then you're back at square one.

Anyone here got any proof of Gods existence?
I suspect not because to prove a god exists would mean that the god does not, for proof denies faith, and without Faith a God is Nothing.

Why was any of the bible written in Greek?

Perhaps to try to dispell their Gods, I bet that went down well.

Starbug ·

what... ALL their gods? ouch! thats alot of gods to dispell...

isnt it strange how many ancient faiths had not one god, but many gods? gods for everything...
seems a bit easier to spread the power amongst many than have one almighty controller!

sun worship... now theres something! were it not for the sun we wouldnt be sitting here pondering......... god.

pete wood ·

I explained why the new testament part of the bible is written in greek on page two.
Short answer, Alexander the Great.

bugboymatt ·

.........

byronbus ·

I havent read the whole thread yet and dont agree on all of what has been said and it appears some of it has been edited...BUT Tony, why cant people talk about what they want, you dont have to look at it...I hate american cars but you have in the past posted your interest of them on here, I dont mind, i just dont look at them...as is the tats thread or whats your drink thread...

Be tolerant dude, you dont have to believe or follow or even look at others views...

Bell just rang, gotta go and teach young people to respect eachother...
Herbie wrote:For the sake of people who aren't zombies, keep religious subjects off the forum,

This is Aussie Veedubbers, not the church of Aussie veedubbers.

Man made God not the other way around.
you will get vicious critisicm from me if you start preaching on my favorite Car related forum.
Just because I am out voted by Zombies doesn't make me wrong.
9 million australian smokers must be onto something, we should give them the benifit of the doubt,
Maybe the Chinese outvote the christians, I'm pretty sure they do, so you should drop you religion and see their light.
See my point?
you can have great numbers of mislead people but that doesnt make it right.
Every War in History comes from a group of people who think they have the answer to whats right, clashing with another group of people who believe they actually have the answer, truth be known they are most likely both way off on a tangent.

Keep religion off the forum and everyone can be happy.
I dont want to see it on here and I'm sure most other people dont want christian propaganda all over their Volkwagen Forum.
Why dont you do something useful with your free time rather than preach, learn more about how things really work in the real world, find out about things that can be crossreferenced as accurate with out Blind Faith, Anything can be sold to someone with Blind faith.
Learn about how cancer affects people and work out how to stop it or
why other people believe different things and consider that they might actually understand more about the world than you or your army of Zombies, and that you may actually have a lot to learn.

Why dont you remove this post and make you'r signiature not related to religion and see how you go learning to accept other opinions as Valid instead of Patronising me and summoning your brothers in gullibility to your battle.
This Is a VW Forum and Not an Open field for Christian Propaganda.

Your antireligous propaganda fellow VW enthusiast,
Anthony
[Edited on 21/3/2005 by byronbus]

Herbie ·

So,.....

Did the greek people just drop their many gods to adopt a christian god?
did the Greeks only decide that there was a god of thunder and a god of love etc after they decided there was a god of everything?
A readers Digest consolidated God! the sort of God that covers the general Gist of Everything rather than going into any great detail!

Seems odd that the Greeks would Sellout like that, bend over backwards as it were, instead of Bending over forwards as is more the traditional Greek Custom.

these gods have now joined the dole que

Uranus = Gaea
|
---------------------------------------
| | | | |
Cronus = Rhea Coeus = Phoebe Oceanus = Tethys
| | |
---------------------- Leto = Zeus Iapetus
| | | | | | |
Hestia | Poseidon | Demeter=Zeus | ----------------
Hades Zeus = Hera | | | | |
| | Persephone | | Prometheus |
Athena | --------- | |
| | | Atlas Epimetheus
--------------- Apollo Artemis | |
| | | | |
Aris Hebe Hephaestus Zeus=Maia Zeus=Dione
| |
Hermes Aphrodite



I bet If I disrespected the Christian beliefs and openly called it Mythology, there would be uproar!
How did it come to be refered to as Mythology?
What happens is people put forward some propaganda, some people buy it, some people object, so those people who object are asked to hush and are told "What Harm could it do to believe in this?" "just keep to yourself if you dont agree"
Then when they have enough gullible people who see all the other Gullible people think hey if my neighbors doing it then he must see something I dont see, I better join in, I would hate to be seen as unable to see something that everyone else see's and join the procession to wave the Flag of their newfound Belief, you will find that Gullible and Brainwashed People have just united against non believers and set out to convert them by outvoting them at every oportunity,
Thats why this week we will all be celebrating Easter and in December, Christmas, reguardless of whether we belive in any of it, because its conveniently become law in this Country and Many others, Public holidays etc have penalties for disobedience, IE an employer must pay more to have someone work over easter reguardless of what the employer or employee personally believe.
I personally will be enjoying the Biggest Rib Fillet Steak I can find for dinner on good friday, because I like steak and I refuse to allow lemming like mentality of people overide my own ability to make decisions.
Most people who dont particularly believe in christianity will be forced to eat fish on Good Friday as its easier to just eat Fish than to oppose the many who just follow the person in front of them and to be pointed out as a hethen and sepperated from others in society, nobody likes to be left out in the cold.

So theres some of the Harm involved in ignoring Christian Propaganda, if you ignore it, it doesn't go away it just festers and eventually becomes law.
Because thinkers/independants and nonthinkers/followers each get one vote, and the rest of our society is dictated by the majority, reguardless of how illogically they have come to their decisions.

Rather Pathetic really!
The story of the Emporers new clothes sure seems to tell an important story.

Its excactly the sort of divide and conquer mentallity that had the people of the middle east speaking Greek at all,
Think of what a horrific event would need to occur to make a nation or more of people change language, Did they just wake up one day and say "Hey This Greek Language is really cool, lets all speak Greek!"? No, I doubt it, I am sure you can research Alexander the Great and find all sorts of Violent carnage against anyone who opposes his Ideals.
This would leave just the Followers and weak willed people to breed and spread the word.

"Every Sperm is Sacred" Works real well to make more catholics, and yet the Catholic Church holds the major share in Ansell as I understand it,
Ansell, the worlds largest supplier of Condoms, This helps ensure that over time the Catholics become a much greater percentage of society with more power while any non catholics are encouraged to use contraception to ensure they dont reproduce and are outvoted out every Opportunity.

So the Christian "Mythology" Saga Continues,
Where is your Proof that your Imaginary God is not imaginary and actually Exists, Step forward and Present your evidence or should it be considered that you admit that your God is nothing more than a figment of the Imagination and should be represented accordingly in the interests of the majority of Gullible people who may believe your God to be Real, and continue to spread the brain infection for generations.

Rape and Murder Have been practiced for longer than Christianity but that doesn't make them acceptable now does it, just because they have been occurring for as long in Humans as they have been in the rest of Nature, doesn't make them tolerable to our society, even though they are as natural an act as eating food or reproduction.

Herbie ·

Christians can Ignore this thread too, ByronBus, No harm in them practicing what they preach, but they wont retract as it will be seen as a battle lost.
which is why this thread now has 7 pages, and you will also notice that this thread starts without the actual post that starts it all, and yes I have noticed that when I read back some of the posts are not as I recalled when I replied. I have only edited where I said {This will be revealed to be untrue} reguarding my silence as more fuel was added to the fire.

And Bruce, most american cars are pretty boring, they are disgusting displays of a society that manipulates the world to create cheap fuel for themselves.
All art is offensive to someone.

Oh, and I edited this one to add, that Johnny 777 retracted his post after our first few posts in protest and that was a respectfull and good action, however neither of us knew at that point that this thread would develop in such a manner.


[Edited on 21-3-2005 by Herbie]

byronbus ·

No wukkus

ColumBUS ·

bump - that ones for penguin 😉

i think this topic needs further discussion on topics...

we have debated whether god is real, if he 'exists', and why people believe in him. Weve talked about how shurches arent the holy places theyre made out to be.

what i want to know now is if anyone here follows a 'religion' or way of life separate from 'common law religion' ie christianity.

as ive said before i follow a mans teachings. many have called him a god, but he never did call himself anything more than a teacher. there is no 'faith' as such in what i believe, only logic.

10 points to whoever guesses the name of that man!

[Edited on 21-3-2005 by Kroozin_Kikko]

Oasis ·

About the egg and the chicken... Which one is smoking a cigarette?

Oasis ·

Kroozin_Kikko wrote:he already has... but heres my story

when we began as single cell organisms, we reporduced asexually... an exact copy of the original being, over time these cells evolved into muticellular amphibic life...
How can an organism that reproduces itself as an EXACT copy evolve into anything??

This is the first of many posts here, but I've been reading it for days and loving it.

vanderaj ·

Don't get too hung up on evolution, here's the hot goss:

http://www.talkorigins.org/

In short, let's move the debate to other, more esoteric areas instead of areas which have been settled.

Andrew

frenzix ·

1.jesus is jesus.. not god, he is god's child like many of us. The difference is he didn't sin, even though he was tempted... how can god be tempted? He was purely here to let people know that it is possible to live life without sin..to the end nothing more. (what is sin? read the 10 commandments)
(Matthew 3:17 "And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”)

2.There is no satan or devil (as the hebrew word for satan is adversary, when translated, also diablos, greek (devil) meaning false accuser or slanderer) Therefore a "devil" is ourselves and our temptations taking control.. no evil man with a little pitchfork..(Jesus once called his own disciple peter "satan" as this was normal talk for the day)

3.When you die you die, until jesus returns to setup the kingdom and judgment (on earth) (Genesis 2:7) (Ecclesiastes 9:5-6) (Acts 8:12)

There is no magic formula, or no perfect religion but God will judge every one of us one day when he sees fit, we have no control over the time when he'll Jesus will return.. the only thing i can say for people that are not sure is to find out for themselves and start reading.. If someone told you that if you read a certain book you would have neverending wealth you would at least try reading it right?

Churches that take your money, or pretend to speak in tounges or do anything that makes you feel uneasy etc are rediculous, all the pompous outfits and hierarchy that are in mainstream churches make the truth look bad. Jesus was fairly poor and would have definately driven a clapped out splitty with ultra rat potential, so all these wealthy churches and people are not godlike.

Anyway that's my 2 shillings, Tim

Oasis ·

I think you could say that God is by definition that which can't be defined, and I don't see what is wrong with this definition except its recursion.

Like a lot of people here I worked as a minister and was studying theology but then I saw the light when I saw what a mind prison organised religion can be. I think faith (i.e. believing/putting your trust in something) can be beneficial to many people, but no one has a monopoly on "absolute" truth. People only have an "individual" or "personal" truth based on their own life experiences in their tiny part of the world. There are no Christians or Atheists without faith. To know either of these viewpoints to be true would require absolute knowledge, and that would make you equal to God, or even God herself. That leaves you with your faith in whatever belief system most "resonates" with you. Perhaps it is your actual faith that saves you, not what your faith is in.

So far I have read many arguments with huge gaping holes in them, from every (both?) side(s) of the fence. The only thing that I do know is that I don't know anything. I am now very comfortable with not knowing and continually seeking the truth through discussion and conversation. Unfortunately I don't think any of you bible believers own the truth. All you can do is BELIEVE that your book either: 1) IS the truth, or: 2) CONTAINS the truth (depending on how brave and liberal you choose to be).

I certainly believe that it contains the truth in many ways. I also think that a flight manual for a Cessna does too. The difference is that one of these books will save your life.😉

Herbie ·

There can be no further inteligent debate about god here,
For no one has been able to prove that he is anything more than an imaginary, man made answer to Questions that nobody had answers for, a long long time ago and blind faithful followers have continued to devote their lives to something they cannot prove to be real.
Which is fine till they try to present it to others as real then you get debate, which is where we are, reading this.

So until anyone can prove any god exists outside their head, any statment reguarding any Gods body of Work is Null and void.

Like I said before 3+2=7 is a flawed formula so to accept it as anything else would make for wildly inaccurate and pointless neverending results.

Likewise God = real proveable actual and accountable thing that exists, is also a flawed formula, so to accept it as anything else would make for wildly inaccurate and pointless neverending results.

I'm waiting to be dazzled before I give any christian the opportunity to talk crap that they themselves dont truly even understand, to me, and call it true.

You can't build anything on imaginary basics exept imaginary concepts.

jumping the Gun is letting them off the hook, and a waist of time exept for entertainment.

I read a bible versus science type of website yesterday that argued that the bible walks hand in hand with science and backs that up by talking about the mention of dinosaurs in the bible, this website does the usual "Lets Look at this scientifically" line of propaganda and then proceeds to rely on the fact that a certain percentage of people are uneducated enough to fall for their story.
They Fail to mention that science has proven that Dinosaurs were extinct long before any man roamed the earth let alone a man advanced enough to write about what he or she actually saw.
They instead rely upon the same misconception that had hollywood make films where man and dinosaur cohabitated the earth, I am talking of old black and white films not jurrassic park.

http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/dinos.shtml
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Most of us loved reading about dinosaurs at some time in our lives. In 1993, the movie “Jurassic Park” stimulated the public interest in dinosaurs far beyond its previous level. As a result, increasing numbers of people have thought, “Since we have found all these fossils and dinosaur bones, we know dinosaurs existed. How come they are not mentioned in the Bible?”

Actually, dinosaurs are mentioned in the Bible, and we will prove it by doing the following three things:

Examining the Bible’s text and the related scientific facts.
Explaining the accuracy of the Bible.
Exploring what we are taught in school and through the media.


The Bible’s Text
The Bible refers to many the common animals we know today. The list includes lions, wolves, bears, sheep, cattle and dogs along with various kinds of birds, rodents, reptiles, and insects. What is interesting is that this extensive list includes three animals that we no longer recognize. These three are (in the original Hebrew language) tanniyn, b@hemowth (yes, it’s spelled correctly—at least as close as we can get in Roman characters), and livyathan.

Although we alter the spelling of behemoth and Leviathan slightly, we still use those same words in bibles today. However, tanniyn is always translated into another word when we write it in English. Tanniyn occurs 28 times in the Bible and is normally translated “dragon.” It is also translated “serpent,” “sea monster,” “dinosaur,” “great creature,” and “reptile.” Behemoth and Leviathan are relatively specific creatures, perhaps each was a single kind of animal. Tanniyn is a more general term, and it can be thought of as the original version of the word “dinosaur.” The word “dinosaur” was originally coined in 1841, more than three thousand years after the Bible first referred to “Tanniyn.” To make things clearer, we constructed the following table comparing the scientific names with the Biblical names tanniyn, behemoth, and Leviathan.

“Dinosaur” Names, Then and Now
Name and date first written in the Bible Scientific Name (best estimate) and date the name appeared
tanniyn (dragon) before 1400 BC dinosaur 1841 AD
behemoth before 1400 BC brachiosaurus 1903 AD
Leviathan before 1400 BC kronosaurus 1901 AD

How we got these new names is interesting. In 1822, Mary Ann Mantell became the first person to discover and correctly identify a strange bone as part of a large, unknown reptile. Her husband, Dr. Gideon Mantell, later named this creature an “Iguanodon.” From that time forward, these forgotten animals were given names chosen by the people who rediscovered them. Of course, the Bible, written between approximately 1450 BC and 95 AD, does not include any of these names.

Reading the Bible carefully, you will realize that no living creature matches the descriptions of behemoth and Leviathan. However, if you grab your kid’s dinosaur book, you will notice several possible matches for each one. Let’s examine those.

Behemoth has the following attributes according to Job 40:15-24


It “eats grass like an ox.”
It “moves his tail like a cedar.” (In Hebrew, this literally reads, “he lets hang his tail like a cedar.”)
Its “bones are like beams of bronze,
His ribs like bars of iron.”
“He is the first of the ways of God.”
“He lies under the lotus trees,
In a covert of reeds and marsh.”
Some bibles and study bibles will translate the word “behemoth” as “elephant” or “hippopotamus.” Others will put a note at the edge or bottom of the page, stating that behemoth was probably an elephant or a hippopotamus. Although an elephant or hippopotamus can eat grass (or lie in a covert of reeds and marsh), neither an elephant or a hippopotamus has a “tail like a cedar” (that is, a tail like a large, tapered tree trunk). In your kid’s dinosaur book you will find lots of animals that have “tails like a cedar.”

We would expect behemoth to be a large land animal whose bones are like beams of bronze and so forth, so whatever a behemoth is, it is large. A key phrase is “He is the first of the ways of God.” This phrase in the original Hebrew implied that behemoth was the biggest animal created. Although an elephant or a hippopotamus are big, they are less than one-tenth the size of a Brachiosaurus, the largest (complete) dinosaur ever discovered.[1] A Brachiosaurus could therefore easily be described as “the first of the ways of God.”

Comparing all this information to the description in your kid’s dinosaur book, you may come to the conclusion that “behemoth” is not a normal animal, it is a dinosaur—the brachiosaurus. We agree with that conclusion!

Note: Some paleontologists have found fragmentary leg bones, ribs, or vertebrae which they propose belong to “new” sauropods larger than Brachiosaurus. Examples of these include Amphicoelias, Argentinasaurus, Sauroposeidon, Seismosaurus, Supersaurus and Ultrasaurus. There currently is not enough evidence to really determine the size of any of these, and some paleontologists believe that they are merely large examples of known dinosaurs like Brachiosaurus or Diplodocus. In any case, only the “modern scientific name” of behemoth would change. The point would still remain that behemoth refers to a dinosaur, not a “modern animal” like an elephant or hippopotamus.
Leviathan has the following attributes according to Job chapter 41, Psalm 104:25,26 and Isaiah 27:1. This is only a partial listing—just enough to make the point.


“No one is so fierce that he would dare stir him up.”
“Who can open the doors of his face, with his terrible teeth all around?”
“His rows of scales are his pride, shut up tightly as with a seal; one is so near another that no air can come between them; they are joined one to another, they stick together and cannot be parted.”
“His sneezings flash forth light, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning. Out of his mouth go burning lights; sparks of fire shoot out. Smoke goes out of his nostrils, as from a boiling pot and burning rushes. His breath kindles coals, and a flame goes out of his mouth.”
“Though the sword reaches him, it cannot avail; nor does spear, dart, or javelin. He regards iron as straw, and bronze as rotten wood. The arrow cannot make him flee; slingstones become like stubble to him. Darts are regarded as straw; he laughs at the threat of javelins.”
“On earth there is nothing like him, which is made without fear.”
Leviathan “played” in the “great and wide sea” (a paraphrase of Psalm 104 verses 25 and 26—get the exact sense by reading them yourself).
Leviathan is a “reptile [1] that is in the sea.” (Isaiah 27:1)
[1] Note: The word translated “reptile” here is the Hebrew word tanniyn. This shows that “Leviathan” was also a “tanniyn” (dragon).

Unlike behemoth, who is huge, Leviathan is ferocious and terrifying. Many references (we have not listed them all) refer to the sea, so Leviathan is probably a sea creature. Although some bibles refer to Leviathan as an alligator or crocodile (and both of these are fierce) neither of these is a sea creature. They like the water, but they spend much of their time on land. Further, the question “Who can open the doors of his face. . . .” implies that nobody can pry Leviathan’s jaws open. Yet we are all familiar with “alligator wrestlers” who routinely pry open an alligator’s jaws. Alligators do not match the description of Leviathan—and we are not done yet.

The description of the scales is interesting. Several verses describe these great scales. Compared to Leviathan’s armor, iron is like straw and arrows ca not make it flee. Let’s face it, an arrow can do a lot of damage to a crocodile or alligator. This is not a description of either of them—or any living animal we are aware of.

And now for the key ingredient: fire. It is hard to read Job 41:18-21 without realizing the Bible is telling us that Leviathan breathes fire. That alone will eliminate almost every living animal. Yes, there is one animal that can spew fire in today’s world. It is called a bombardier beetle. This beetle is a native of Central America, and has a nozzle in its hind end that acts like a little flame thrower. It sprays a high-temperature jet of gas (fueled by hydroquinones and hydrogen peroxide with oxidative enzymes) for protection. Now, if a Central American beetle has a built-in flame thrower, so could Leviathan. By the way, crocodiles and alligators are out of the picture on this one, don’t you agree?

Before we leave the topic of fire, there are two more notes you may find interesting:

The history of every culture is filled with stories of fire-breathing dragons. If you think about it, in all the past ages wouldn’t someone have made up a story of a fire-breathing lion or something? Nobody did because the dragon stories are based on truth, and only “dragons” breathed fire. It is easy to imagine Leviathan as a member of the dragon (tanniyn) family. (Plus, Isaiah 27:1 strongly implies this connection.)
Many fossil dinosaur skulls contain unexplained, empty passages. Scientists have not been able to guess the reason for these passages. Would it make sense that some dinosaurs used these passages as “gas tanks” for the combustible mixture used to “breathe fire?” We believe it does.
Comparing all this information to the description in your kid’s dinosaur book, you may come up with the conclusion that Leviathan is a kronosaurus. We have heard (and read) other suggestions, but the kronosaurus is the best match of any known creature to the description of Leviathan.

The Accuracy of the Bible
Some people believe that the Bible is not a scientifically accurate book, and that it is only a “spiritual book,” that forgot about dinosaurs or described them incorrectly. This is not the case. Nobody has ever proven that the Bible contains any inaccurately recorded information. (If you think someone has such evidence, contact us and show us the evidence. We will post that evidence with our reply in our FAQ section for the world to see—literally.) You do not have to believe the Bible just because someone says you are supposed to. That is blind faith, and blind faith is something you do not need with Christianity. The Bible and Christianity have been proven to be true. (See our page called “How Do You Know The Bible Is True?”) There is no other religion or “holy writing” that can honestly make the same claim. You may also wish to get a copy of the book “Know Why You Believe” by Paul Little. It addresses the facts that support Christianity in clear and simple terms.

What We Are Taught (In School and Through the Media)
Since humans are in the Bible, we unconsciously think that dinosaurs were extinct—and therefore not mentioned in the Bible. As you have just seen, the Bible not only refers to dinosaurs, but has detailed information about two of them.

Unfortunately, our public school system and the media have convinced us that dinosaurs were extinct at least 60 million years before man appeared on earth. They have done such a good job in this area that we can not imagine people and dinosaurs living at the same time. The fact is that dinosaurs were created only one day before mankind, not many millions of years earlier—and we have evidence to support that statement. Click here to see our Creation and Evolution page, and a link to many sites that fully prove this.

There is a lot of quality scientific information available regarding dinosaurs in the Bible. In time, we will put together a list of links (or recommend a good list of links we find on the web). For now, we would like to recommend two excellent sources of books, video tapes, and audio cassettes on this topic.

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:puke

I love the way it also just states how "we alter the words slightly" and "It can be read as" and then proceeds to stand on those extreemely wobbly foundations while keeping your mind too busy to say, "Hang on, this is bullshit!" and then tries to hold their brand new unquestionably accutate and litteral fact up high as an argument.


I started reading the little book that Jehovahs witnesses give you if they think you are ready to be enlightened about 10 years ago, I got to about page 26 before I could not do myself the injustice of consuming anymore deception, they make mention of several somethings as a mere interesting thing or belief and then a few pages later they stand their argument up on the words they use to lay a foundation for further mind altering bamboozelment hoping that you will forget the context in which they were originally presented, they may well proceed to back them up by things they have relating to the original misconception further in the book, so it will tie itself up in a neat little bundle for the gullible. Every percent of society that fall for it is another percent of society that votes with them and gives them controlable power to affect the world.

This topic was started by religous propaganda diguised as one mans account of a near death experience where he went up to heaven and back, after being crashed into while driving his "69" beetle.


Untill someone can show proof of god rather than unverifiable fables from the Bible, this topic is dead in the water, everything else that relies on the existence of god being true, that gets posted here can be nothing more than a falsehood.

:jesus

Herbie ·

My Local Church

dodge ·

Kroozin_Kikko wrote:bump - that ones for penguin 😉

i think this topic needs further discussion on topics...

we have debated whether god is real, if he 'exists', and why people believe in him. Weve talked about how shurches arent the holy places theyre made out to be.

what i want to know now is if anyone here follows a 'religion' or way of life separate from 'common law religion' ie christianity.

as ive said before i follow a mans teachings. many have called him a god, but he never did call himself anything more than a teacher. there is no 'faith' as such in what i believe, only logic.

10 points to whoever guesses the name of that man!

[Edited on 21-3-2005 by Kroozin_Kikko]

hhhhmmmmm UM
stab in the dark here

Bob Marley? :P

Lams ·

what do you believe is the truth? you've heard my idea of it can I hear yours?

Yes I admit it's difficult or even impossible to prove that God exists if you do not think that the bible holds all the evidence you need. but then I don't see much evidence on the evolution or big bang theory either!

I mean I know that this is what science discovered a lot, but just as we cannot see the invisible God, I cannot see this big bang

Jonno777 ·

Herbie, you've used the "blind faith" term quite a bit, using it to prove Christian belief is anything but credible. What does or does not exist, in your opinion from what I gather, must be proven. Part of the problem is how you deem it proven.

Seeing is believing, I'm sure you'll agree, yet you've never seen your own brain to believe it exists. However, it is proven to you that you possess a brain because you were told that you have a brain.

When you are told over the intercom of an airplane that some turbulence is approaching, your blind faith is again in operation, and you act on that blind faith by fastening your seat belt.

When you look out over the wing of your airplane, you see the external paint, but underneath could be cardboard and scoth tape for all you know. Again, you base your faith in something you can't see, probe, or investigate for yourself, yet you believe certain things to be true regardless.

Whether you do infact have a brain, are appraching turbulence, or fly wings of steel, blind faith on your part is in no lesser degree than that of a Bible believer.

You are adamant that a person should know something to be true before believing it. I believe the Bible to be true, and therefore I believe it. You might know evolution to be true, and therefore believe it. But do not both beliefs require faith in the words of another man?

Unless you were around when the earth began, you only believe the earth began because you were told. The difference between you and I, is that you put credibility in science, and I put credibility in the Bible.

When a scientist proves with modern science that a certain drug is safe, you would believe that the drug is safe. If 30 years later it is proven that the drug was unsafe, you then change your opinion of the drug as science advances.

My understanding of God's Word can advance, but God's word stays the same, as God's Word is the same yesterday, today, and forever. I can wake up in the morning and know that God is true, just, and magnificent, and nothing can shake me.

:party

Jonno777 ·

Oasis wrote:
Kroozin_Kikko wrote:he already has... but heres my story

when we began as single cell organisms, we reporduced asexually... an exact copy of the original being, over time these cells evolved into muticellular amphibic life...
How can an organism that reproduces itself as an EXACT copy evolve into anything??
Good point, Oasis. I think they would say it's the mutations that bring about the course of evolution. It's those "accidental" changes that somehow advance every time. Like oneday we had a baby and she had wings, so we named her Boeing. We think that when she has kids, the wings will be a little bigger.. I don't know how the mutations know how to develop in the right direction....like, mutations have their own intelligence? ...but you don't question that...you just fuz it up in your mind that "..it just happens over fillions of years.." like a child who exclaims "it just happened" when he pees on the floor.

Nobody could explain the egg concept beyond a short and uncompelling paragraph, but I wouldn't expect them to. After all, "it just happened"

It's like the living cell. One living cell was required to start life. Living cellls are very complicated. The possibility of a living cell just forming from after a big bang in space, has the same possibility of an Airbus A380 being assembled by a tornado. :duh

penguin ·

Okay then Herbie and obviously kikko.

Faith: confidence or trust in a person or thing, belief which is not based on proof. In other words, if validation was possible, these concepts would stop being matters of faith and start being matters of fact. True?

Utilising your arguement those who have any form of faith would be those who have/share a belief in a form of God/Goddess/power/diety/being/way of life etc are convinced of the existence but therefore, have no incontrovertible, irrefutable answer to anyone who challenges them to provide evidence of the veracity of their belief systems' tenets.
They are left unable to contradict the popular arguement of 'where is the proof?' and unable to demonstrate that their inner direction is the right one, and so have to endure the constant harping of others who insist on verifiable proof of that which can't be proven.

Who said that it had to be belief in one form of God?
I have my beliefs and obviously you have yours.
For the sake of the next paragraph, lets call a system of beliefs = 'god'.

Can you prove that 'god' does not exist?
just because you can explain how or why an action/reaction occurs, such as fuel burning or breaking a stick, does not mean that you can prove that something does not exist. What is white and what is black? is white all colours and black an absence of colour? How can there be a vacuum when to be entirely void of matter means that space must exist there?

So just as you can try to prove that there is no 'god', a person who believes without requiring proof will still say that they believe because all you have done is reinforce their beliefe in something that cannot be proved.

If you were to believe in the bible word for word then I woudl understand you, not agree but understand. As that is a system of belief. I knwo that there are multiple contradictions within the bible, the easiest are an 'eye for an eye', but then you have 'turn the other cheek'.
To me, I have never found anyone who has said that the bible is more than a guide book (for want of a better term) that allows spiritual guidance, not directions. the same goes for any spiritual writings I have read or heard about. A good deal of them are basically an ancient code of laws and health system. Ever felt sand under your foreskin? got infected? wonder why the arabs and other inhabitants of that region use circumcision? (on males, that is, females are a different story) Pigs, long known for disease and worms, wonder why the locals of the Mid east used to steer away from pork? Hunting for the sake of hunting? ever thought that the animals would die out and you would not be able to feed your tribe in future years?
I do not agree with anyone who says that their way is the only or right way. Any belief is what the peson makes of it, to be honest to what you believe is all that can be asked. Does it matter to an animal if it is killed according to law? or does it matter to someone outside some branches of christianity that they eat meat on any friday in lent? what about alcohol if you aren't a muslim? pork if you are a christian? Doubt it.

Why bother aggravating someone simply because you do not agree with what they believe? feeling a little insecure in your own belief/s? I've seen people who have killed for the same, 'simply because you are not my type of person, I must kill you'. To state as an example that the Catholic Church is the majority holder in Ansell Condoms... where is the proof? can you show me where they are listed as the majority holder of Pacific Dunlop, the parent company of Ansell?
To then complain that you are penalised for working a public holiday which falls in line with a religious holiday (albeit that most are based on pagan and seasonal changes anyways). well, why not work the day and take home nomal pay, then give the rest to charity? no? oh but then you must be the employer, bet you can't discuss it with your employees logically that they can work for less and give the other payments away? why, because people expect it. Don't blame societies greed on religions, that is just using a scapegoat.

Agreed in a perfect world what holidays that are left might be non-aligned with all other holidays wiped out, because they all celebrate things that only one group of society believe or agree with, oh, and that would include weekends because Sunday is the Christian day of rest (Friday for two of the other larger religions). what about Labour Day, why no, because I do not believe in the power of the common man (or woman) or in equality. Queens Birthday, no, because I am a republican.

Perhaps this is a reason why I do not like to discuss religion with people who do not specifically seek out discussion, because it simply gets emotive and comes back to the arguement of trying to prove that which cannot be proved.

~air fooled~ ·

hey ive got a question.. who here has a supernatural experience? if man has nowhere to go in the afterlife other then the worms belly, then what does it mean when we see ghosts?

personally, i know my old man wasnt completely nuts as we both saw the same ghost at our house in the same week, and thats with me broaching the subject first without influence... that is more then enough to convince me that god exists... bible or no bible...

Oasis ·

Here here Herbie. I totally agree, and with Penguin. Air fooled, why does seeing a ghost prove God? If anything it only proves ghosts.

Herbie ·

Reality is how you percieve it.

if you believe that you percieve the sky as Pink, then to you, the sky is pink.
for all further intents and purposes your sky is pink.
But to declare it a fact rather than a perception will create all sorts of arguments.
to be happy with your pink sky should not affect anyone else and just give you joy, but understand that others may see the sky as blue or orange, and be happy for them as long as they dont try to hold you down till you admit it is blue or orange.

I personally dont mind if anyone thinks they shagged Gods Daughter behind the shed after school, good for them, but dont expect everyone else to believe you no matter how many of your friends say you did and no matter how long you go on about it.
what a person believes is totally up to that person, but if they try to convince others that they are right, they better be able to back it up, or just be happy to know they enjoy their individual beliefs, nobody came up with their religion on their own, they were all influenced by others,
others who may have been dismissed quickly if they were actually scutinized.

The chicken or the egg thing was explained in great depth for anyone enthusiastic enough to follow the link, if you didn't get it then thats maybe more of a reflection on your ability to follow up on or investigate evidence.

For me to object to something, there has to be something to object to, in this case its not what people independantly believe but the things that they state as undeniable facts that bear very little load when they are asked to prove it.

If the airplane pilot said, "Attention ladies and gentle men, God is a little concerned that we may be having a smooth flight and will be shaking the crap out of this plane in about a minute or so, could you please put on your seatbelts"
then I would also probably put on my seatbelt, because My life experience and study of physics at even a high school level has taught me that turbulence exists and I should be wearing my seatbelt should I like to prevent myself from getting injured or more importantly stop me from injuring others.
If the Pilot said "we are going to crash into a great big strawberry marshmallow" I would treat it with scepticism.

I know that people believe many things to be true, and theres nothing wrong with that at all, but if it cant be proven then it cant be treated as a fact, only a belief.

God is only a belief unless proven as a fact.

If by your own admittance God is believed unproveable then theres no harm is that,

you dont need to prove that God exists to Believe in it.

but to try and force it as true and convince others is called fraud.
the only reason its not illegal is because too many people believe it to be true already, and people make the laws,

Do not confuse the Law with Justice.

I'm not claiming "God" to be anything provable, in fact, quite the opposite.
For something to not exist requires no proof, it does not exist by default.

Oasis ·

Herbie, that's exactly what I meant when I said earlier "Faith (i.e. believing/putting your trust in something) can be beneficial to many people, but no one has a monopoly on "absolute" truth. People only have an "individual" or "personal" truth based on their own life experiences in their tiny part of the world."

I don't agree with your last sentence though: "For something to not exist requires no proof, it does not exist by default."

We don't actually know if something doesn't exist. We only have our own perspective. "It" may exist outside our world. I would say though "It can't be proven that something doesn't exist", rather than "For something to not exist requires no proof."

eirecooled ·

You want proof God exists!
You'll want to see Mr Barnard room 412


Excuse me is this the right room for an argument?

I told you once!.............

If you require proof that god exists read your household insurance policy. A legal document that states an act of God null and voids any claims.

[Edited on 22/3/2005 by eirecooled]

ColumBUS ·

okay back to the chicken and egg thing; you are quite correct it was not an exact copy, the cells gradually mutated in a form of mutation; but now you are just getting picky... end of chicken and egg conversation.

dodge: no, not bob marley... he was never a religious figure, but he was a religious man. in fact he followed the man i do. only like many misguided souls in his time and now he believed him to be a god, not a man with a brain.

jhonno: we can take photos of brains, touch planes and experience turbulence... all physical sensory proof of their existence.

Lams: there is proof that the big bang theory could have eventuated; proof through science not through heresay and a metaphorical book thousands of years old either.

widespread churches have indeed turned to deception and scare tactics in order to make more money in their holy crusade for whatever it is they want. everyday i pass my local church with the giant billboard (much the same as herbie's) reading 'save your sinning soul! join the church today!' note that it resembles the old 'uncle sam needs you!' slogan used in the second world war... propaganda and scare tactics if ever i saw them.

religions such as christianity, muslim, catholic etc. are about three things: telling you what to be afraid of, whos to blame for it, and who to turn to when one and two are believed...

sure the bible is full of great things; pointing out whats right and wrong morally and ethically etc. etc. but its the way the people who follow the bible twist and mould 'gods word' that gets me riled.
amen, herbie!

HotRodMatt ·

Yeah onya Kikko.

Rastafarianism forbids alcohol completely. End of story.

Haile Selassie (assumed name of Ras Tafari) not only shrugged that shit off he was actually offended. Probably the only redeeming feature of an oligarcical despotic tyrant.

You had your dreads made. That is also contrary to the system. No styling or cutting of hair is permitted. Full stop.

ColumBUS ·

10 points for hotrodmat

yeah i had them made. they were made before i found rasta though...

considering im not black and im not a slave: i intend to drink up.
the stories of haille silassi (ras tafari) are as numerous exaggerated and on many occasions false as those of jesus himself. i dont know what to believe about the man. but i do know that his beliefs on heaven (zion) and hell (babylon) being mentalities and not an imaginary reward.
and hey im not perfect... who is?

i follow the path to spirituality that haille silassi showed us. sure im not the greatest example of a rasta (im not black) but i believe the teachings of silassi will help me live a better life, even if i do drink...

[Edited on 22-3-2005 by Kroozin_Kikko]

squizy ·

Scientists and Christians can never agree....

ColumBUS ·

hmmm go back a few pages squiz you will find a link to a article about a young earth creationist teaching science at one of the uks finest schools... ah the english... making so much sense every day!

[Edited on 22-3-2005 by Kroozin_Kikko]

HotRodMatt ·

squizy wrote:Scientists and Christians can never agree....
I disagree. Science and the christian cult (as can judeaism and islam) can agree. There are many christian scientists - they are not mutually exclusive until the point of the existence of a god.

Where they can't agree is that science by nature cannot pick and choose bits of its foundations as orthodox christianity can.

HotRodMatt ·

Selassie's teachings are in his action not in comments dubiously attributed to him. If oppressing millions of people; maintaining, no strengthening, a feudal society; stealing millions from the poor; installing puppets and callinging it democracy are to lead to a better world then that is a world I want out of right now!

squizy ·

In a base form, Scientists require empirical proof of something before they believe it [is the Earth round.....etc, etc], where Christians will just go on blind faith alone.

squizy ·

So what I'm implying here is that both sides of this argument [and all the other bits in between], will never meet because of their completely different approach and backgrounds to the answer.

pete wood ·

Herb,
I can see you fell strongly about this stuff, but can you quit writing 2000 words essays? I've stopped reading them, they're too long. :duh

Oasis,
what was it that changed your mind about Christianity?

BTW, where did you study out of interest?

ColumBUS ·

HotRodMatt wrote:Selassie's teachings are in his action not in comments dubiously attributed to him. If oppressing millions of people; maintaining, no strengthening, a feudal society; stealing millions from the poor; installing puppets and callinging it democracy are to lead to a better world then that is a world I want out of right now!
Haile Selassie ruled as an absolute monarch, centralizing Ethiopia and instituting a number of reforms, including the abolition of slavery. In 1935, after the Italian Fascist troops of Benito Mussolini had invaded Ethiopia, Haile Selassie gained the admiration and sympathy of the world with his impassioned plea for aid from the League of Nations. The league was powerless to act, however, and Mussolini consolidated his gains and officially annexed Ethiopia to Italy. Haile Selassie was forced into exile. Ethiopia was liberated early in World War II, and Haile Selassie regained his throne in 1941. In the postwar period he instituted social and political reforms, such as establishing (1955) a national assembly. In the 1960s and 70s he worked for pan-African aims, particularly through the Organization of African Unity

...sounds like a real nasty dude matt. i mean freeing the slaves, how dare he! ill bet the slaves were real pissed off at him for that. he personally led his men into battle against the italians, but after realising he could not win, instead of wasting more lives he chose exile. the nerve of this man how dare he!

in the 60s a rebellion consisting of young british officers and anyone silly enough to listen to them did revolt, and selassie crushed this revolt, as any leader of a nation would stop rioting or attempted coos.
his army did revolt against him, but what you dont hear is that his army was governed by the british at the time, and orders were coming from the crown, not selassie. he was arested in 1974 and killed in prison in 1975, once again by british officers.

[Edited on 22-3-2005 by Kroozin_Kikko]

[Edited on 22-3-2005 by Kroozin_Kikko]

Starbug ·

sorry to burst your bubble lams, but they have seen the big bang... they see it all the time and anyone can pick it up on their tv and radio... youve no doubt both seen and heard it many times.

its called the cosmic background radiation, first predicted by george gamow in 1948, and discovered by arno penzias and robert wilson in 1964 (quite by accident!)

http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni/uni_101bbtest3.html

72FASTY ·

sooooooooooooooo.........

anyone read The DaVinci Code?

(sound of can of worms opening....)

Starbug ·

this is what it looks like

Starbug ·

yeah, i just finished reading it yesterday...

i thought it was very predictable, and i didnt like the way that the female cryptographer couldnt work out some stupidly easy codes... *sigh* i can see how people would like it but i really found it quite boring

ColumBUS ·

yes i can also see how it would have appealed to many, but not to me

Herbie ·

2000 word essays, heheheh
how did you get through the bible?.

Ok , heres a thought,

Lets say for the sake of making a point, I have seen many many swans,
I have seen swans in many lands,
and all the swans I have seen are white,
and all the swans My friends have seen are white,
all the swans I could find that have ever been seen and photographed for research have been white,
does this prove that a black swan does not exist?

NO!

Because someone may bring me a black Swan next week and then my "no Black swan" theory would be proven false.
but this one lone black swan by itself appearing to me even if only briefly, would undeniable prove that a black swan exists.

until then I can only believe that there are no black Swans but can never prove it as the appearance of one, one day in the future will dispell the theory.

So God or Black Swans or any Item for that matter can never be proven not to exist but can be proven to exist,
So when I witness a black swan or a God then I shall believe differently.
P.S. I have seen Black Swans. :thumb

Can anyone show me proof of the nonexistence of anything?

Herbie ·

reading the Da vinci code now but only up to chapter 6, But I ordered the "The Selfish Gene" and "The Blind Watch maker" both by Richard Dawkins from Amazon.com cant wait till they get here, then you can bet I'm going to be a real pain in the arse.:thumb

ColumBUS ·

honest lawyers dont exist :thumb

Herbie ·

I would agree that they would truly be rare, however you cannot prove that, as one day somewhere one may turn up, it would only take one, but thats all it would take, till then you would have to believe that no Honest lawyers exist,
I bet that a God wont be far away when the honest lawyer comes to town.:P

Oasis ·

Well the event horizon around the edge of a black hole is proof of the absence of light, or proof of a vacuum, or proof of gravity but I'm not sure if this example fits Herbie.

I studied at The Sydney Church Of Christ Theological College in Carlingford. I left college and Christianity for many reasons. I seem to relate more to how both Matt and Herbie think now, although a little different. I don't discount Christianity as a valid faith and way to live, but not for me. It seems to help many people. It also seems to screw a lot of people up. It is a choice to believe, and it is very much a faith based on myth, hearsay and metaphor. I mean this as a good thing, as it's hard to be dogmatic about a myth or metaphor. Unfortunately it is taken as fact by many, and although it may contain many facts, we don't really know what is and what isn't. Buy a synopsis of the gospels and see what I mean.

I am too aware of what I don't know and can no longer conclude anything to be absolutely true, but I'm happy enough to not know, and maybe say "that part of your faith makes sense to me". e.g. "Love your neighbour as yourself" makes sense to me as it leads to a peaceful outcome and can be understood in animalistic terms, i.e. all animals love themselves so the analogy makes intrinsic sense.
I understand "An eye for an eye" as it is a restriction on how far to take your revenge, NOT a request to take revenge, i.e. If someone takes your eye out, your first reaction is to want to kill them. Well the verse means you can do no more than take from them what they took from you. You can't kill them and their family.

My initial sojourn away from Christianity had more to do with the limited way people in churches believe you can experience God, and also that for some reason you ask for his presence when you're in church. What a crock of shit. I experience that every day and everywhere, AND STILL DO. I call it a different thing now though. The bible says that God doesn't inhabit temples made by human hands, yet people that follow that book ask him for his presence in church. (I know this doesn't apply to all denominations, but it's rife in most churches). I am a musician, artist and composer, and I almost always had a greater sense of God (whatever that means) when I was writing, playing or listening to music, art or poetry regardless of the content of such. It could be listening to the words of the Joni Mitchell song Hejira, or Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony. When did such banal crap as most praise and worship music get a monopoly on God's presence? I've played on heaps of Christian CDs, many of which you probably have heard or have, and they have been generally the least creative and least inspired things I have done. Also they have been the least rewarding financially and make much more money than all the jazz CDs I play on where I get paid properly.

Anyway I'm rambling. Watch Kerrie Anne tomorrow at 10am. I'm the one playing the piano...

jo_tas ·

really? i'll watch it kerri-anne for that :P

vanderaj ·

Herbie wrote:2000 word essays, heheheh
how did you get through the bible?.

Ok , heres a thought,

Lets say for the sake of making a point, I have seen many many swans,
I have seen swans in many lands,
and all the swans I have seen are white,
and all the swans My friends have seen are white,
all the swans I could find that have ever been seen and photographed for research have been white,
does this prove that a black swan does not exist?

NO!

Because someone may bring me a black Swan next week and then my "no Black swan" theory would be proven false.
but this one lone black swan by itself appearing to me even if only briefly, would undeniable prove that a black swan exists.

until then I can only believe that there are no black Swans but can never prove it as the appearance of one, one day in the future will dispell the theory.

So God or Black Swans or any Item for that matter can never be proven not to exist but can be proven to exist,
So when I witness a black swan or a God then I shall believe differently.
P.S. I have seen Black Swans. :thumb

Can anyone show me proof of the nonexistence of anything?
Although you use a correct logical conclusion (until you try to draw in God's existance by the black swan fallacy), you can't ignore what we have observed.

We have observed cosmic background radiation and there are many theories which fit the observed facts and explain them. We use their properties for valuable insight into how the universe works, and from that we now have a good idea if the universe is open and expanding (it is). These are the white swans. If God was a black swan in this scenario, how does He (or She or It or Them) fit the observed facts?

Science is open to change - when new observed facts come in, and the old theories can't explain them or need to be revised, they are. That's why our modern understanding of quantum mechanics has replaced classical physics at the sub-molecular level. Photons travel both as a wave and as a particle, and classical physics cannot explain this. Through the explanations of quantum theory, we have pretty much every modern electrical device from TV to computers.

Trying to make God fit in with observed facts is absurd. Deities and all belief systems cannot be proven. No hypotheses can be postulated from details written down in various religious texts. Thus they are faith driven, and to believe in God is to have faith. If you believe, you don't need (nor require) proof.

Trying to use science to prove the existance or otherwise of God does not help your cause nor is it a productive use of energies. Such energies would be better spent on your religion's primary teachings of the New Testament, such as compassion, tolerance, charity and forgiveness. Help those around us by all means, but don't waste time on meaningless pursuits. If you don't believe in the New Testament or take the Old Testament to heart to a greater degree, you should probably consider a related, but non-Christian belief system, such as Judaism.

Andrew

HotRodMatt ·

Kroozin_Kikko wrote:Haile Selassie gained the admiration and sympathy of the world
Even Edi Amin won world sympathy and support. And when the veil of his own press fell down what a bastard he turned out to be.

Kroozin_Kikko wrote:instituted social and political reforms, such as establishing (1955) a national assembly.
Full of sycophantic puppets.
Kroozin_Kikko wrote:...sounds like a real nasty dude matt. i mean freeing the slaves, how dare he! ill bet the slaves were real pissed off at him for that.
Yeah freeing slaves good one. Does that out-weigh running the country as a feudal system? The poorer the people the more they had to pay for the privilege of farming their own land.

I bet the Ethiopians would have prefered the hundreds of millions he stole from them to have remained in the community rather than in his private bulging bank accounts.

Before you continue to quote online encyclopaedia, read broadly and read sources that don't simply confirm your opinion. You sound just like an orthodox christian.

StenGuns ·

This free wheeling debate is taking on a hint of Pythonism

StenGuns ·

Arthur: I am your King.
Peasant woman: Well I didn't vote for you.
Arthur: You don't vote for kings.
Woman: Well how'd you become king, then?
Arthur: The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite, held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by devine providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. That is why I'm your king.
Dennis: Listen. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
Arthur: Be quiet!
Dennis: You can't expect to weild supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!
Arthur: Shut up!
Dennis: If I went 'round sayin' I was an emporer just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!.

HotRodMatt ·

There is always somethign to be learned in Python Rob.
ARTHUR:
Well, I am King!
DENNIS:
Oh, King, eh, very nice. And how d'you get that, eh? By exploiting the workers! By 'anging on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic and social differences in our society. If there's ever going to be any progress with the--
ARTHUR:
Then who is your lord?
WOMAN:
We don't have a lord.
ARTHUR:
What?
DENNIS:
I told you. We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week,...
ARTHUR:
Yes.
DENNIS:
...but all the decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeting...
ARTHUR:
Yes, I see.
DENNIS:
...by a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs,...
ARTHUR:
Be quiet!
DENNIS:
...but by a two-thirds majority in the case of more major--
ARTHUR:
Be quiet! I order you to be quiet!
WOMAN:
Order, eh? Who does he think he is? Heh.
ARTHUR:
I am your king!
WOMAN:
Well, I didn't vote for you.
ARTHUR:
You don't vote for kings.
WOMAN:
Well, how did you become King, then?
ARTHUR:
The Lady of the Lake,...
[angels sing]
...her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite, held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water signifying by Divine Providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur.
[singing stops]
That is why I am your king!
DENNIS:
Listen. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
ARTHUR:
Be quiet!
DENNIS:
Well, but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!
ARTHUR:
Shut up!
DENNIS:
I mean, if I went 'round saying I was an emperor just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!
I wonder which aquatic tart threw a sword at the House of Windsor (or should I say of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha).

StenGuns ·

You got that right..
OK thats enough seriousness.. You can have your silly post back now..

HotRodMatt ·

Well here's some seriousness with some Python thrown in.

Regarding the sermon on the mount...
Well, blessed is just about everyone with a vested interest in the status quo, as far as I can tell, Reg.
Sounds just about right!

StenGuns ·

Hallelujah Brother!

ColumBUS ·

HotRodMatt wrote:Before you continue to quote online encyclopaedia, read broadly and read sources that don't simply confirm your opinion. You sound just like an orthodox christian.
actually, these are quotes from his autobiography and historical texts that i own.

the difference between my way of life and christian beliefs is that i live my own life. i dont try and ram it down everyone elses throat.

rastas live a peaceful, tranquil life on the path to spiritual balance. they followed the religion of ras tafari; whose religion and political actions were totally separate manners altogether.

Che Castro ·

Wobert the wobber!

I'll watch out for you bill 🙂

I also tend to agree with you on truth, that the only real truth is only what you believe as an individual. Oh I don't particularly like Hillsong church (or the family first party), but you guys already probably know that 🙂

HotRodMatt ·

Kroozin_Kikko wrote:whose religion and political actions were totally separate manners altogether.
Kinda like taking Jesus out of christianity?

Or Joseph Smith out or Moronism, sorry Mormonism.

lowrider ·

HotRodMatt wrote:Well here's some seriousness with some Python thrown in.

Regarding the sermon on the mount...
Well, blessed is just about everyone with a vested interest in the status quo, as far as I can tell, Reg.
Sounds just about right!

....Blessed are the cheesemakers.....

ColumBUS ·

HotRodMatt wrote:Kinda like taking Jesus out of christianity?

Or Joseph Smith out or Moronism, sorry Mormonism.
no. more like taking john howards personal life out of his political actions. what he has for dinner has nothing to do with the war in iraq.


...be quiet bignose!

Lams ·

Che Castro wrote:Oh I don't particularly like Hillsong church (or the family first party), but you guys already probably know that 🙂
I don't either. But jsut because they speak in tongues doesn't mean every other Christian does too! Gotta be aware that there's a huge variety of denominations in the world nowadays

psychobuggers ·

Are you lot the Judean Peoples Front?

Oasis ·

nope, It's the Peoples front of Judea.

ColumBUS ·

well what happened to the Judean People's Front

...he's over there

:jesus

Herbie ·

I Love Python, part of why they are so funny lies in the fact they that usually offend someone, in these cases from the life of brian, they mock the ridiculous conclusions derrived by the masses.

We have observed cosmic background radiation and there are many theories which fit the observed facts and explain them. We use their properties for valuable insight into how the universe works, and from that we now have a good idea if the universe is open and expanding (it is). These are the white swans. If God was a black swan in this scenario, how does He (or She or It or Them) fit the observed facts?
Simple, God is believed to be phyically nonexistent until physically discovered.

you can't call a belief a fact till its proven, Facts need to be proven before the qualify as facts, until then they can only ever be theories.
You can believe a theory that hasnt been proven, but you cant call it a fact.
You can believe a fact once its proven
but to believe in something that is unproven is nothing more than a belief.
Theres nothing wrong with believeing in an unproven theory, however you should announce it not as a matter of fact, as does the Bible on the very first page.
It says "In the Beginning God created" blah blah blah;
But it should say.
There is an unproven theory that God even exists, all events and theorys and accounts herein after which relate to god, can be treated only as Theories and not as factual. and then date it in case things change unexpectedly.

If a white swan came along and vouched for the existece of a black swan or claimed to be the son of a black swan that doesn't actually Prove the existence of the black swan.
But it may help you BELIEVE that one does exist.

You cant reinforce beliefs as facts by simply quoting beliefs from a book of common beliefs, you can still only show your beliefs to be common beliefs, no matter how much you believe your beliefs.
Until Proven, they are not FACTS

as far as calling the Black swan/white swan analogy a fallacy, dont focus on the wrong part of the story, concentrate and pay attention.
If you dont concentrate and pay attention, you will end up beliving all sorts of crap.


Next thing you know you'll believe in :sandrine
Remember the theory, if you dont belive in fairies, they all die.
if you believe that statement then your logic missed that they can't die till they live and they cant live till you believe they do, and to require you to believe in them for them to BE at all means they are nothing more than figments of the imagination.
And Cute ones at that.:thumb

Herbie ·

Heres on for ya,

The Pope

He is very old and not very well, but the catholics seem hell bent on proping him up on sticks and destroying his dignity like "a weekend at Bernies"
Its a weekend at the Vatican.

Why dont they just let him die?
Surely they believe that the one they hold highest will be good with their god when he gets to their Heaven.

Furthermore, their God is calling out for him to come home, is that not the belief that is preached all round the world?

By the slow and torturist death of their pope they aren't doing much for the image of the faith they have in their own beliefs now, are they?

Why dont they let him rest? why cant they give him a break for his own good?

Surely that would be the Christian thing to do, not to be so selfish as to torture their Pope to death in Public.

penguin ·

herbie,
before you start talking about the Pope I would strongly recommend you find out a bit more than what you have demonstrated in your post. U2U me if you want clarification.

~air fooled~ ·

Oasis wrote:Here here Herbie. I totally agree, and with Penguin. Air fooled, why does seeing a ghost prove God? If anything it only proves ghosts.
how can a ghost exist without any type of god or afterlife i ask you? if i see an image of someone passed, that is just that, an image, how exactly is that projected in that exact form? if we are without god the owner of that image is rotting away in the earth somewhere unknown.. its a physical impossibility in regards to science...

god cant be justified with science, thats why its called faith. if you choose to have no faith then that is your choice, i have faith for what i have seen and felt and if i am wrong when my time is up then i have lost nothing.

i myself believe in god but see evolution as part of the whole plan of things... maybe an each way bet!? hahaha.....

Che Castro ·

I said I dislike hillsong, not other denominations. Most of those evangelical churches are the ones I dislike most. Their materialism is sickening, as is their terrible music 🙂

I think the current pope kinda strangely symbolises the church these days.

Herbie ·

I better go buy some easter eggs because christianity has trained society to ridicule and despise the non comformist.

Try tellin your girlfriend that you dont believe in god so you didnt buy her any easter eggs.

Penguin, do you mean that there is another reason why the pope has to be paraded right up till his death?

I Bet there is.

penguin ·

Bugger he left before I could talk.
Oh well. from a Cathiolic Church website:

'Although the Pope has repeatedly stated that he has no intention of resigning, many other critics have suggested that he is now too frail to continue the running of this vital Christian denomination. Continued health problems, including Parkinson’s disease, arthritis, and the effects of repeated surgery have only gone on to encourage his critics in condemning his physical abilities to lead the millions of Catholics worldwide.'

So why bother to bring up a point such as that? It has no real relevance to a sensible debate on this subject. Not that I believe that this has been a sensible debate. More like a series of disjointed statements from people who sometimes have taken things far too personally and have not learned to live within their own lives and feel compelled to force or deliver their personal views onto others as the correct one.

Herbie ·

Dont forget, todays science only encompasses what we have learned so far, not the whole of the story, we still keep learning every day.

the earth used to be considered flat, and was probably not really up for debate till proven otherwise.

HotRodMatt ·

Che Castro wrote:I said I dislike hillsong, not other denominations. Most of those evangelical churches are the ones I dislike most. Their materialism is sickening, as is their terrible music
Putting the money grubbing aside. There is a reason for their 'happy clapping' and the programmed singing. It is the same reason that monks chant and shaman dance and rastas smoke dope. The left brain shuts down. The right brain is then susceptible to suggestion.

Herbie ·

oh, and Penguin, this thread is a reaction to preaching about someones one true God.

to every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
This thread has a long way to go before its equal to the action it is opposing, and each time it gets topped up, it then becomes much longer.

ColumBUS ·

air fooled:

a 'ghost is meant to be the spirit or soul of a dead person. if ghosts were roaming the earth, that would mean that the souls of men and women arent going to heaven or hell.

serious hole in the god exists plan

penguin ·

PS. Easter eggs have very little to do with Christianity and its version of Easter. The celebrations, of which Eggs form a part of, are a combination of a number of religious celebrations (the dates are albeit set to Passover and the Western Orthodox Christian Calender) princiaplly for Christian and Jewish religions but has also got pagan ties thrown in.

As was in this or another thread ( relating to Christmas and Santa Claus) it is an example of good product merchandising move by someone/companies a long time back to sell chocolate.

penguin ·

Not really Kikko,
for the R. Catholics there purgatory. Did anyone have to say it was not based on/in this realm?

hole closed?

This is no longer a balanced discussion. The original post has been removed, therefore how can it now be balanced?

[Edited on 23-3-2005 by penguin]

~air fooled~ ·

Kroozin_Kikko wrote:air fooled:

a 'ghost is meant to be the spirit or soul of a dead person. if ghosts were roaming the earth, that would mean that the souls of men and women arent going to heaven or hell.

serious hole in the god exists plan
and for a soul or spirit to be roaming let alone exist justifies my arguement but shoots holes in yours matey... according to your scientific beliefs vs justification or not of god, matter can neither be created or destroyed.... what is this soul doin wanderin around when hes buried in the ground for worm food!? how can multiple people see the same image without being delusional? but hey, this is just my experience...

[Edited on 23/3/2005 by ~air fooled~]

ColumBUS ·


Putting the money grubbing aside. There is a reason for their 'happy clapping' and the programmed singing. It is the same reason that monks chant and shaman dance and rastas smoke dope. The left brain shuts down. The right brain is then susceptible to suggestion.
i think someone's paranoid...

chanting singing dancing and toking put you in a certain state of mind, but not in that way matt.

ganja (dope) is used by rastafarians in order to feel the peaceful state of mind that the hallucenogenic brings. it is said that this state of mind is experiencing zion (heaven on earth) and can be achieved permanently through meditiation and a healthy lifestyle. for many the use of ganja is no longer needed at all to live in 'zion'.

chant is used by monks in order to do the same thing. elevate the spirit to a new and higher mentality, to detach from the world of today and find a happier peaceful place within your soul.

shamans dance to elevate adrenaline in their systems.

all of the above practices are performed by people already devoted to their religion/way of life

i dont know much about hillsong church... and their use of songs, tongues and clapping.

HotRodMatt ·

Kikko. Go to an Anthony Robbins forum. His motivational (cult) fora use the same technique. The left brain shut down is used to slow rational thought and analysis.

But then again. Analysis is beyond some people who can only repeat.

HotRodMatt ·

Kroozin_Kikko wrote:
shamans dance to elevate adrenaline in their systems.
Have you seen one? I have - the only visions they get are from delerium from the combination of oxygen starvation, lactic acid burn from their activity and substances ingested.

When you go and see these 'traditional' shaman in the flesh, talk for hours to people of the same culture and have some intimate knowledge I might believe you have some idea of what you are talking about.

Jonno777 ·

Kroozin_Kikko wrote:air fooled:

a 'ghost is meant to be the spirit or soul of a dead person. if ghosts were roaming the earth, that would mean that the souls of men and women arent going to heaven or hell.

serious hole in the god exists plan
I've seen ghosts too, Airfooled, and understand them to be demons. Demons are not the spirit of a dead person, yet they can mould themselves into a person's appearance and character.

Kikko, if what airfooled saw was a demon, that doesn't rock the Bible's solidity at all, but merely confirms the spirit world.

I have seen people healed of diseases (deafness, blindness, crippled states) through the power of Jesus Christ, and have cast demons out of people in His name. Every instance confirms to me that God's Word is true. 😉

dodge ·

Kindness is a trait that belongs to no religion.
Every person is entitled to their own opinion and beliefs regardless of how they got them.
Please remember this.

~air fooled~ ·

hahahaha, bingo, hahaha... good point matt

[Edited on 23/3/2005 by ~air fooled~]

~air fooled~ ·

Jonno777 wrote:
Kroozin_Kikko wrote:air fooled:

a 'ghost is meant to be the spirit or soul of a dead person. if ghosts were roaming the earth, that would mean that the souls of men and women arent going to heaven or hell.

serious hole in the god exists plan
I've seen ghosts too, Airfooled, and understand them to be demons. Demons are not the spirit of a dead person, yet they can mould themselves into a person's appearance and character.

Kikko, if what airfooled saw was a demon, that doesn't rock the Bible's solidity at all, but merely confirms the spirit world.

I have seen people healed of diseases (deafness, blindness, crippled states) through the power of Jesus Christ, and have cast demons out of people in His name. Every instance confirms to me that God's Word is true. 😉
hey mate, im not sure as to who they are or what side they represent, but its more then enough to make me believe in god...

penguin ·

Well said Ms Dodge 🙂

(all parts of it)

Herbie ·

thats why Dodge is a godess of the forum


Johnny 777, perhaps you could post a link to the article that started this thread, as neither you nor I Knew it would make 10 pages of debate and any newcomers have no clue where it all began or why any debate really started.

Better yet, I'll repost the Link, "CLICK HERE TO SEE WHAT STARTED THE DEBATE"

Let me know if you found it somewhere else.

Heres the text from that link

---------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Night I Died ; My near-death experience

Written by John Helms


Used with permission.:duh

It was the summer of 1969 on a hot August night about 11:00pm and I was out cruising in my '69 V.W. Beetle down highway 51 just south of the Tennessee-Mississippi state line. I had just bought a boss crome, eight-track Leer tape deck that day, and was listening to Cream's new song, "Born under a bad sign", cranked up loud so I could get the most out of my box speakers mounted over the rear seat. All of the sudden I had the strangest vision in my head that I was locked into a head-on collision and there wasn't any way that I could avoid it. My stomach felt kinda queasy and I started to get scared.

Just then, a car came out of nowhere going at least 100 m.p.h. As he tried to turn the curve in the road, the left side of the car lifted off the road because it was going so fast. When it came back down, the car was headed straight for me! All I had time to do was to turn my steering wheel sharply to the right in order not to take a direct head-on hit. Then the car hit me with tremendous force and a loud "boom" and my car spun around several times like a child's toy top. I knew that this was the end of my life.

When my car stopped spinning, I was experiencing a great deal of pain and the first thing I did was to feel my arms and body to see if I was dismembered. After I did that, I looked down at my left leg and saw that it was bent at a left angle like a backwards "L". I wasn't as worried about my leg as I was the pain I was experiencing inside my body. I knew that all my ribs were crushed on my left side, and I was afraid that they were puncturing my lungs, since I could hardly breathe, but luckily I wasn't bleeding from my mouth.

I looked out my window a Highway Patrol car came flying past me with his lights and siren on. He was chasing the drunk driver who had just hit me. I waved my arm at him for help, but I guess he didn't see me me waiving or else he wanted to catch the drunk who had just hit me. I didn't want to die sitting in my car, besides I thought it might catch on fire. With this thought, I felt an adrenaline rush and I managed to push open my caved-in door and drug myself out of my car and onto the street on my belly about 10 feet away from my car and rolled over on my back.


I looked back at my car and and parts of it were strewn down the street. I then looked up to the stars and told God that if He wanted to take me now that I was ready. Shortly a crowd of people came out of nowhere and huddled around me. I heard somebody tell the crowd to stand back so I could get some air. Everybody was making negative comments that I wasn't going to make it. I was in incredible pain and in shock also. Suddenly, all the pain from my neck down was shut off like a light switch. Then I saw a tunnel of white light - I felt my spirit leaving my body and I started to ascend upward into this tunnel of light at a very fast speed. I was dying! My mind was totally focused on this and nothing else. I wasn't conscious of the crowd standing around me, of my physical body, or anything going on around me.

I rose up the white tunnel of light faster and faster and higher and higher until I was miles above the stars. Then I cam to a stop and felt myself engulfed in an overpowering unconditional love, the likes of which I have never experienced in my life. I was at complete peace. The Bible describes God's peace "a peace which passeth all understanding". Complete peace, tranquility and harmony. It was what I always thought heaven would be like, except it was better and much more beautiful. Everything made complete sense to me. My mind was at one with God's mind and I was at one with God and the whole universe. A mere thought and you were immediately transported there! I felt I was in the presence Jesus and He said," Come on John, come go with me-I want to show you something". As soon as he said that, we were hovering over a beautiful white, christen beach along side an ocean or a large body of water that was a pretty shade of blue-green. And as if I was on a camera boom doing a movie, I came to a close-up of the sand. Then Jesus picked up a handful of sand showed it to me and said," look at this sand, John" as he let it slowly run out of his hand until only one grain of sand was left in the palm of his hand. He said," do you see this grain of sand, John?" I replied," yes, Lord". Jesus continued," every crises and traumatic experience that you have or will ever experience in your whole life on earth is as small and insignificant as this little grain of sand that I hold inhere in my hand as compared to the glory and joy which awaits you here in Heaven. No more worries, no more sorrow, no more heartache or loneliness, no more pain, no more physical disabilities, no more disease or illness -all that will be left on earth." I then laughed to myself at all the things that I was so worried about. I felt as though I was going to explode with joy-that I couldn't take being in the presence of almighty God any longer-of the awesome power and glory of God's infinite love and mercy!

Just then I felt myself ascending even higher in the heavens in the tunnel of light. All of the sudden I stopped and a huge hand slowly came out of the tunnel of light with the palm of his hand facing me and said," no John, I'm not ready for you yet." I said," please God, I don't want to go back". As soon as I said that I felt my spirit descending as quickly as I ascended, and felt my spirit come back into my body and then I felt the pain come back and I saw the people all standing around me and a preacher was bending over me and was saying words to try and save my soul from going to hell. I told him that I was a Christian and that I wasn't going to die, although he and everyone else was quite convinced that I was. About that time the paramedics finally came on the scene and loaded me onto a stretcher and into the "meat wagon" and I was off to Baptist Hospital.

All of the doctors who helped with my surgery told me that I shouldn't have lived through my accident and that it was a miracle that I was still alive. I know God saved me for a special purpose in this life and I know that I am accountable to Him for what I do with it. I have gone through many difficult times since my "near death experience"-times when there didn't seem to be any hope left - I just wanted to give up on life and call it quits, but I always think back on my "NDE" and it reminds me that there really is a God in Heaven, because I met Him in a very personal and dramatic way. I know that what I experienced was real, even though other Christians think I'm nuts when I share my testimony with them. I also know that He does love me, even when I think He doesn't and everyone else has deserted me, I know that He is there for me. This gives me hope to go on when life seems hopeless and something to look forward to after my life on earth is over. Death is only a transition to an eternal life with God if we only accept Him as the Lord of our life and believe in Him through His son, Jesus Christ.

If you are going through difficult times or have doubts about God's promises and what the Bible says, just put your faith and trust in the Lord and pray to him for help and guidance even though nothing makes any sense now- then just take it one day at a time. I hope my real-life testimony has helped you in some way. You know, Jesus didn't tell us this life was going to be easy, but we can persevere with his help and by his grace.



Note from webmaster: John is a wonderful artist and I asked him if his NDE (near-death experience) influenced his painting in anyway?

John's Reply: Maybe in a subconscious way but what my NDE HAS taught me is to be kind to people less fortunate than myself - to be more giving of my time to people who really need a friend - when other people ignore or shun them, like an old lady who lives behind me an is lonely and needs someone just to talk to. She really appreciates me taking the time to visit her-same with a little crippled man I've known for years. He has no friends and sits alone in his wheelchair in a nursing home-all he does is watch TV and sleep and eat-he doesn't have any friends, except for me, I guess. and when I go to visit him or take him to Wal-Mart to buy some things he desperately needs, he really appreciates it and the time I spend with him. I don't have much financially speaking, but I 've found out that rich people as well as poor people want someone to spend time with them-seems like people are lonely these days and need time spent with other people.

God showed me that this time that we have here on earth, which is only a blink of an eye, is a test to see where we fit in eternity-in heaven or in hell.....What we do with our life and how we conduct ourselves is his test for each person on earth -to love one another as He loves us, and things that we don't understand - we won't have the answer to until we get to heaven.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

read this then go back to page 1 but realise that many people have edited their posts so it may not make total sense.

Enjoy.

penguin ·

May I ask why bother to repost that? From what I have read of this thread my thoughts as to the reason he deleted the post was that he was uncomfortable with the response from people and so he deleted it.

If its to keep the thread alive, good on you for a self licking ice cream.

As I no longer see a reason, I am out of here.

ColumBUS ·

Kikko, if what airfooled saw was a demon, that doesn't rock the Bible's solidity at all, but merely confirms the spirit world.

there is one word in that argument that makes it verrry shaky...

IF.
even christians have told us there is no hell and demons and the devil etc etc are merely metaphorical terms.

IF it was a demon, i'd believe it too. prove its a demon and ill follow you all the way

Che Castro ·

a disproportionate amount of the hillsong congregation is also under 25 as well.

Anthony Robbins is another thing, along with all those other "motivational" speakers. They all are quite a lot like cults. They talked about it on JJJ a while ago, how the seminars go for days on end and fatigue helps to coerce people into believing rubbish.

~air fooled~ ·

hey kikko, how bout instead of throwin up bullcrap arguements you try to prove what a ghost is then and how it fits into your rastafarian world?

Herbie ·

cool,

it serves to show why I reacted.

and gives anyone who also finds it offensive a chance to discuss the topic how ever they see fit,

I dont expect anyone who has invested their life in their beliefs to abandon them, but I would like them to consider that they are only beliefs and not necessarily facts, and to ponder how and why they believe what they do.

If what they believe is solid then there is no harm in cross referencing it, if it wont add up or make sense when it is scrutinized, then why try to convince others that you posess the truth?
Accept it is nothing more than an opinion or belief that you cant back up properly.

I am not offering an alternative religion, I am not claiming to have the answers, or the questions, I am merely pointing out how and why its wrong
to tell others that you posess the truth if you cant prove it.

If you dont like the heat get out of the kitchen or show me you have a true undeniable factual belief that bears any real scrutiny.

I have just as much right to present this argument as anyone who tells me that God Exists or that something is the work of God or the bible has anything to do with the existence of God etc.

So get yourself a cup o tea watch this unfold.

ColumBUS ·

i dont think ghosts exist. light refractions coupled with an imagination can make anyone assume anything. the same as when one walks outside late at night and hears a rustling in the trees... its gotta be a mugger!

if ghosts were to exist it would prove there is another dimension in which our souls travel to, however this dimension is parallel to ours and whilst they may not be afflicted by walls, etc. they all still walk our earth in one way or another... not some ultra peaceful land of happiness and certainly not the fiery pits of hell... unless the ghost is walking in gloria jeans, then its hell.

dodge ·

tea..... mmmmmmmmmm.....
the peacemakers drink 😉

ColumBUS ·

and i totally agree with herbie. dont tell me its fact if you dont have anything to back it up

Herbie ·

if it doesn't add up, why believe it?
and as far as Ghosts are concerned, what people see are apparitions, whether they are actually Ghosts or not is not proven, merely speculated, They might be something totally unrelated to ghosts that we dont yet know about.
Same goes for Demons, merely speculation, however, U.F.O's are a different story,
If someone tells me they have just seen a UFO, I tend to believe them, because U.F.O stands for Unidentified Flying Object, if they see something an object flying and they cant Identify it, then that makes it a U.F.O. even though there may well be a very boring explanation as to what they saw, if they dont posess the explanation then it was to them, a U.F.O.

~air fooled~ ·

Kroozin_Kikko wrote:i dont think ghosts exist. light refractions coupled with an imagination can make anyone assume anything. the same as when one walks outside late at night and hears a rustling in the trees... its gotta be a mugger!

if ghosts were to exist it would prove there is another dimension in which our souls travel to, however this dimension is parallel to ours and whilst they may not be afflicted by walls, etc. they all still walk our earth in one way or another... not some ultra peaceful land of happiness and certainly not the fiery pits of hell... unless the ghost is walking in gloria jeans, then its hell.
fair point, too bad two people saw the exact same thing in different areas in the same week though! as i had already stated... as for your alternative theory for if the ghost is real, with what evidence do you base this? are you not talking about something similar to this entire discussion which has a lot more evidence and proof going for it?

now i think your just waffling on about bullcrap that you yourself have no way knowing or proving....

no offense man, just trying to understand your justification for such statements..

ColumBUS ·

i never said that ghosts dont exist, im not trying to ram it down your throat. im certainly not waffling on about bullcrap. that is what i think occurs.

im giving my point of view. please dont call it waffle, bullcrap etc etc. im sure i never said anything of the likes to you.

it is known to have the same ghost or the same object seen by different people. in my opinion this goes back to the imagination.

a girl walking through the park at night hears a rustling in the bushes. her friend hd been mugged there before, so it must be the same guy.

penguin ·

Herbie wrote:cool,
it serves to show why I reacted. and gives anyone who also finds it offensive a chance to discuss the topic how ever they see fit,

I dont expect anyone who has invested their life in their beliefs to abandon them, but I would like them to consider that they are only beliefs and not necessarily facts, and to ponder how and why they believe what they do.

If what they believe is solid then there is no harm in cross referencing it, if it wont add up or make sense when it is scrutinized, then why try to convince others that you posess the truth?
Accept it is nothing more than an opinion or belief that you cant back up properly.

I am not offering an alternative religion, I am not claiming to have the answers, or the questions, I am merely pointing out how and why its wrong to tell others that you posess the truth if you cant prove it.

If you dont like the heat get out of the kitchen or show me you have a true undeniable factual belief that bears any real scrutiny.

I have just as much right to present this argument as anyone who tells me that God Exists or that something is the work of God or the bible has anything to do with the existence of God etc.

So get yourself a cup o tea watch this unfold.
I am back now, so can answer what you have written. I have work commitments that take me away from my computer and so cannot always state a reason to stay here and watch what is posted (no matter how relevant someone may feel the conversation to be)

I don't care about heat or kitchens so that means nothing to me. (PS I don't drink tea)

Now you say that you are not offering an alternative religion or claiming to know the answers etc?
but you are.... why, because you are saying that what the others believe is wrong.
Thats why I have a problem with this thread. Nothing you say will change what I believe, nothign I say will change your beliefs, nothing either of us says will change anyone else's beliefs. Why? because they arepersonal.
Sure you may have a beef with certain people and the way that they have broached the subject with you in the past, but is that a reason to deride others beleiefs when they were not the party involved?
If I was cut off by a driver of a datsun, does that mean that I can hate or deride all datsun drivers? Just beacuse I have never done something does not mean that I will deride or demean those that do.

Simply because you do not agree with their point of view does not mean it is wrong. People are different (thank god- pun not intended) and that is waht makes it all fun. What one person thinks is science is anothers fantasy. Was the world always round? or only after it was proved? did man walk on the moon? were dragons real? science can revisit lots of things after proving them, and realise it was wrong. Ever heard of string theory? heres a basic link to it if you haven't http://superstringtheory.com/basics/basic4.html
So who's to say that what we have believed up until now is more correct or that string theory is more relevant to the world?
So why does something have to be fantasy until it is proved? we believe that there are quarks, (as a component of matter). ever seen one? has anyone? no, why, because we have merely assumed them to be there because our calculations say that they should be there.

But anyway, enough for fantasy... or is that science?????

If you feel so strongly about this issue, which it would appear you do. What have you done about it? Written any papers calling for open discussion/debate? Challenged a theological scholar of any faith/belief (not meaning that any of the people here who have responded are less than scholarly) about the existance of a 'God'?

As for your right to argue (which I thought this was not, I thought it was meant to be merely a discussion) I have no problems with that, but after the first reason for the discussion is raised and then removed because (I assume) the poster felt that it may have caused offence, why continue? They obviously felt that it was not appropriate to remain given the response. They reached the point where I hope that most people realise where pushing your own P.O.view goes from polite, to just pushing.

What it has shown to me though is that given the right circumstances you too will act just the same as the people that you seem to have an arguement with. If you read your posts you may find that you are trying to push your P.O.view as hard as those that you seem to deride.

As you can tell, I enjoy pushing buttons and shoting at things (as I have obviously done already 😀).
So please feel free to continue.

[Edited on 23-3-2005 by penguin]

jenz58 ·

....OK I'm in here....but not going to read today... I will save my energy for next week when I get home....you nearly got me to read it ...

Gotta turn off this machine NOW...before I read AND then have to reply 😉:P

Oasis ·

~air fooled~ wrote:
Oasis wrote:Here here Herbie. I totally agree, and with Penguin. Air fooled, why does seeing a ghost prove God? If anything it only proves ghosts.
how can a ghost exist without any type of god or afterlife i ask you? if i see an image of someone passed, that is just that, an image, how exactly is that projected in that exact form? if we are without god the owner of that image is rotting away in the earth somewhere unknown.. its a physical impossibility in regards to science...

god cant be justified with science, thats why its called faith. if you choose to have no faith then that is your choice, i have faith for what i have seen and felt and if i am wrong when my time is up then i have lost nothing.

i myself believe in god but see evolution as part of the whole plan of things... maybe an each way bet!? hahaha.....
Well only if you assume a ghost is the spirit of a deceased person. What if a ghost is only what you see, i.e. it's a ghost looking thing that exists in this world we are in.. not some remnant of a previously living person from the past? How do we all of a sudden just KNOW what a ghost is? I've had a personal experience with a ghost but still don't see how it proves there's a God. It does prove that there's something I can't explain though.

I agree with you that evolution may be the method that God used to create living beings. Just a thought...

Also I have a strong faith, nor have I ever chosen not to have a faith... but faith is what you have for things that you can't see, not things you can, for to believe in things you can see requires no faith. That's why Christianity is a faith. You have to believe in things you can't see or prove, and for all those Christians that may want to shoot me down, your bible says, "without faith it is impossible to please God." You should revel in the fact that you believe in something that you can't prove.

Herbie ·

Penguin,

If you are unprepared to question how you came to believe what you believe, then you have more problems than we can help here.
You are obviously one of the percentage of followers who just like to follow without question, It takes all sorts to make the world go round.
Part of having an open mind is to question what is presented before you, you have chosen to accept that you should never question your faith in what you believe, so you are effectively locked in a box of iggnorrance, which is why you were told never to question your faith, once you are following, that will keep you in tow. A bit like being in a gongo line with Blinkers and ear muffs to keep you from outside distractions.
Like This 😀


Presenting an Argument is different to having an argument.

If you read slowly and be sure that you have comprehended exactly what it is that is written here, you may not actually object anywhere near as much.

I personally dont care what anyone believes untill it affects me, anyone trying to convince me that they have the Truth, needs to be able to prove it or keep it to themselves.

Alternatively, they can offer it up as a theory for intelligent discussion, but must present it as a theory or a belief, not a fact. (is there an echo in here? I'm sure that I keep repeating that)

How can I believe in string theory if I have never looked into it?
I shall endevour to learn more about it.
If I can prove it is hogwash, I'll let you know.

I can tell you what I do believe,

Some people in our society are not equipped to think for themselves, they could actually be dangerous if they do.
They need to be told right from wrong, mythology to remember little lessons to keep their minds baffled and keep everyone else safe.

I also belive that in every group of friends or people there is an idiot, if theres not one in your group of friends, then it might just be you.

If you never question, you will never know.

penguin ·

Be careful with you wording - what you have written could be taken personally.
I have questioned what I believe. And I am quiet happy with what I found within, are you?
Why believe that you are superior to anyone else by believing that you must instruct or direct them or that they are incapable of determining their own destiny themselves? why not let them discover their path and future themselves?

PS. As I know I am not an idiot, and we are all friends here, how are you? (TIC)

penguin ·

PS, why do you believe that I have not questioned? Do you know what my beliefs are? or what I have done to influence my life? Have I told you? I could be athiest or agnostic, christian or buddhist, I don't think I have ever said have I?
If what was written affects you, how does it still affect you after it was removed? and why (if you were successful in convincing some one to 'keep it to themselves') do you continue to push what you started?

Me, I don't care on this either way, but I can say that reading this is far better than reading MSDS's or preparing briefs on other matters.

Also I don't have a belief either way in string theory, but it is an interesting and contenious issue amongst a few friends who work in those fields that research this sort of thing. In this case I have accept that matter is present, and that it is formed from other particles of matter. I have no desire to explore that deeply a field that holds no interest.
I just put it up as a comparison between your 'can you prove it' arguement as the composition of matter is one of a number of vital underpinning theories within physics and critical to a lot of what is 'believed' by the scientific community.

~air fooled~ ·

Kroozin_Kikko wrote:i never said that ghosts dont exist,
previous page, not many posts ago...
Kroozin_Kikko wrote:i dont think ghosts exist.
hmmm, backed into a corner maybe or forgetfull? either way man, as i was sayin, this is nothing personal. if your interested in clarifying your thoughts and explaining to me how a ghost could exist without some type of afterlife or spiritual powers, then im all ears...

oh and ps- seeing as though your a fan of science and using it to disprove god, can i presume you are fluent in maths and therefore probibility? what is the probibility that two people could see the EXACT SAME 'REFRACIONS OF LIGHT' and combined with their seperate 'IMAGINATIONS' arrive at the exact description of a ghostly looking human figure walking through walls without coersion in the same week? you must be a gambling man my friend...

i am not asking you to believe in ghosts, just asking you how it could be if you believed?

you seem like a pretty smart kid, but some maturity only comes with age my friend...

~air fooled~ ·

Oasis wrote:[
Well only if you assume a ghost is the spirit of a deceased person. What if a ghost is only what you see, i.e. it's a ghost looking thing that exists in this world we are in.. not some remnant of a previously living person from the past? How do we all of a sudden just KNOW what a ghost is? I've had a personal experience with a ghost but still don't see how it proves there's a God. It does prove that there's something I can't explain though. [/quote]

i have faith but avoid the church cos it doesnt fully suit my beliefs and isnt going the direction i feel is approprite. that said i havent explored every option, its only my previous experiences. i believe in someone i call god, and i try to life my life by the 10 commandments the best i can, thats as simple as it is..

if your prepared to say that ghosts dont prove god (or as you said " I've had a personal experience with a ghost but still don't see how it proves there's a God") then i think you had better have an arguement to support that rather then "It does prove that there's something I can't explain though". with all the evidence 'proving' the existence of god, and ghosts being reagarded as part of the spiritual realm beyond our physical world, you feel you can still reject this as proof of gods existence and pass off a ghost as something you just dont understand? but have no suggestions as to alternatives? i would love a proper scientific explanation for what a ghost may be if anyone is up to it, but no more bull crap about refracted light and imagination..see my previous post... lets get imaginative cynics!

HotRodMatt ·

~air fooled~ wrote:with all the evidence 'proving' the existence of god
WHAT? Where?

~air fooled~ ·

notice the 'proving'... i was mereley stating that on one side of the arguement is all this evidence supporting the existence of 'god' and on the other side of the arguement was the explanation that 'its not proof of gods existence but of something i dont understand'.... evidence is heavily stacked on one side and im searchin for credible evidence of the other sides reasonings...

what is your opinion on this subject by the way matt? you seem one of the more objective and learned people floatin about here so im interested..

Herbie ·

claiming gods existence does not = proving gods existence.

I am only opposing the claim that god is real, and I keep opposing it while it keeps being claimed.

If you have questioned yourself and are happy with what you find then you are happy.

You dont sound happy, you sound cross that you are being asked to prove any claim you are making.
why should this opportunity to explain your thoughts be cause for your anger.

My comments or words might be taken as offensive by someone who believes that ramming their own view at someone is'nt equally offensive, IE post number 1

You could just post, I am happy with what I believe, regardless of whether I can prove it or not, but respect that I can't expect anyone else to adopt my beliefs when I cant present them as verifiable facts.

but I believe you will not.
Prove me wrong.😀

Oasis ·

~air fooled~ wrote:
Oasis wrote:[
Well only if you assume a ghost is the spirit of a deceased person. What if a ghost is only what you see, i.e. it's a ghost looking thing that exists in this world we are in.. not some remnant of a previously living person from the past? How do we all of a sudden just KNOW what a ghost is? I've had a personal experience with a ghost but still don't see how it proves there's a God. It does prove that there's something I can't explain though.
i have faith but avoid the church cos it doesnt fully suit my beliefs and isnt going the direction i feel is approprite. that said i havent explored every option, its only my previous experiences. i believe in someone i call god, and i try to life my life by the 10 commandments the best i can, thats as simple as it is..

if your prepared to say that ghosts dont prove god (or as you said " I've had a personal experience with a ghost but still don't see how it proves there's a God") then i think you had better have an arguement to support that rather then "It does prove that there's something I can't explain though". with all the evidence 'proving' the existence of god, and ghosts being reagarded as part of the spiritual realm beyond our physical world, you feel you can still reject this as proof of gods existence and pass off a ghost as something you just dont understand? but have no suggestions as to alternatives? i would love a proper scientific explanation for what a ghost may be if anyone is up to it, but no more bull crap about refracted light and imagination..see my previous post... lets get imaginative cynics! [/quote]

You have based your argument on ghosts being regarded as part of the spiritual realm beyond our physical world. That's a grave assumption that can't be proven. They may be regarded by you as that, and that's fine, but they could be something else, and if I could tell you what, I would be God.

HotRodMatt ·

~air fooled~ wrote:what is your opinion on this subject by the way matt? you seem one of the more objective and learned people floatin about here so im interested..
On ghosts or god?

~air fooled~ ·

thats the whole point of this.. none of this can be physically proven to the extent that some of yous want, but requires an open mind and the knowledge that science cant explain certain phenommenon within this world but some people here prefer to say ' well it doesnt make sense to be but im certain its not the work of god' because of their closed mind.

that is what makes me ask 'why' and 'what if' and leads me to believe in god amongst other things. maybe if you consider that ghosts MAY very well be proof of god and that ghosts cant be scientifically explained in this instance then no-one will have to bother proving to me how ghosts come to be if no god exists...

i just dont know how people can disclaim one therory without any type of proof or evidence or even idea pertaining to their own theory... if yous have absolutely no idea at least have an open mind and the maturity to consider that whilst you have an opinion and feel a certain way about a subject, you may not be right... open mind people...

oh by the way oasis, i would be interested in hearing your ghost story if you want to share... i have another one involving a physical presence..not mine actually, my nanas, but thats when it has the chance to become chinese whispers i guess...

[Edited on 24/3/2005 by ~air fooled~]

~air fooled~ ·

HotRodMatt wrote:
~air fooled~ wrote:what is your opinion on this subject by the way matt? you seem one of the more objective and learned people floatin about here so im interested..
On ghosts or god?
ghosts mate...

HotRodMatt ·

Similar to Oasis.

I have never put much thought to them except to say whatever it is that people call ghosts are very probably something of this world. I do not doubt that people have seen/felt them or whatever but I doubt they know what they have seen or felt.

~air fooled~ ·

just another unknown in this world, that begs the open mind to question things...

~air fooled~ ·

i'm off on holidays till the 4th, will get back to anyones questions or theories then!

Oasis ·

Quote "....maybe if you consider that ghosts MAY very well be proof of god and that ghosts cant be scientifically explained in this instance then no-one will have to bother proving to me how ghosts come to be if no god exists..."

I do think they may be proof of God, or at least point to something outside of our known world. My point is more that no one considers that they might have nothing to do with God. As soon as there is something that is too hard to explain in our "normal" physical world, people often cry "It's from God". It's both too easy and too difficult to say this. I don't think I'm actually disagreeing with you though, just keeping the options open.

Are ghosts echoes of dead people's spirits? Are they demons in disguise? are they apparitions? Light refractions? people whose bodies have died but they lived on? Angels? The Holy Spirit? Do they exist in this reality i.e. not from "heaven"? Are there millions of spirits walking around and we can only see some? How would we know anyway which of these (if any) are right?

My ghost experience was when I was in the old Bath Boathouse in Bath, England 3 years ago. I was in bed with my wife and someone/thing walked around our bed and actually lay down next to Louise. I heard the sound of someone in the room, and I could feel the bed depress but I didn't see anything. My wife saw him clear as day and described him to me afterwards. She was frozen in fear and shaking as she had this ghost next to her. She eventually hit me to get my attention and to ask me to hold her. He was occupying the same space as her on the bed. I rolled over and held her, and he left after a while. She didn't sleep all night.

[Edited on 24/3/2005 by Oasis]

penguin ·

Herbie wrote:claiming gods existence does not = proving gods existence.
I am only opposing the claim that god is real, and I keep opposing it while it keeps being claimed.

You dont sound happy, you sound cross that you are being asked to prove any claim you are making. why should this opportunity to explain your thoughts be cause for your anger.

My comments or words might be taken as offensive by someone who believes that ramming their own view at someone is'nt equally offensive, IE post number 1

You could just post, I am happy with what I believe, regardless of whether I can prove it or not, but respect that I can't expect anyone else to adopt my beliefs when I cant present them as verifiable facts.

but I believe you will not. Prove me wrong.😀
Herbie,

I am not angry, why would I be? this is not about me it is about something that has you worked up, ifyou have been about and read a few posts of mine before youwould realise what I am like when I do get worked up. I can see that you have assumed because I have taken a stance opposite yours that you think I am one of those that you seem to be vehemently opposed. With regards to my beliefs, I am perfectly happy with them, but more importantly, I am happy with other people having theirs and allowing them to express in the way they see fit (I do not think the same can be said for you can it?)

1. I have never claimed that god exists. Again I state that what I believe is mine, and for me. What you believe is for you.

2. Why should I prove anything to you? I haven't asked you to prove anything. I have merely decided to take an opposite view of yours. Mainly I guess to simply see what you would come out with next 🙂

3. The offensive parts of you my friend seems to be in two parts. Yes you are offensive in that you are ramming your views down others throats, just the same as you seem to be opposed to. I do not think that I have tried to return the favour to you have I? All I have written is merely taking a stance opposite to your views.
The other is reading between the lines of your other post and calling people idiots when you have very little idea of who or what they are. No my friends are not, and neither am I, so does that make you one?

You see, all I have been doing is fishing, and you have taken the bait far better than any Scientoligist, Mormon or fervent Christian ever has. Its been fun so far.

You see, I am happy with what I am, I don't profess my beliefs to be the answer for all, only the answer for me 🙂

Herbie ·

That great news penguin,
So let me get this right,
1. you are not telling me that God is real,
2. you are telling me that you belive god could be real but don't profess to know how, why and when.
3. you understand what the word "fact" means and can differenciate between facts and beliefs.
4.You like VWs
5.you understand that to oppose a view is free choice, but to present a veiw as an argument for disscussion means you need to be able to explain why you support such a view, and be prepared to have it questioned,
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I dont have any problem with people believing whatever they like, except for when it affects my enjoyment of life.
I Believe Everybody has the right to believe whatever they want, but should be mindful of how their beliefs affect others and that their view makes only 1/5 billionth of the total views of the world,

My involvement with this disscussion is predomenantly revolving around the use or abuse of the definitions of ...
1. Facts
2. Fiction
3. Beliefs
4. Opinions
5. Proof

Not what people believe,
but more that they profess their opinion to be fact and not fiction, but can't prove it.

Reacting with Vigour doesn't prove much more than passionate beliefs.
I understand that a belief doesnt need to be a fact to be embraced,
but it shall remain nothing more than a belief unless proven to be a fact reguardless of how tightly it is embraced or how many people embrace it.

You dont have to prove anything to me unless you want to oppose my veiw in a discussion, which is what you are claiming to do, yet it appears to me that you dont even understand what veiw I am even putting forward.

This is a logical disscussion regarding what is the difference between
Fact, Fiction, Belief, Opinion and Proof, and the Harm involved in the confusion of these things.

Your beliefs will only be disected and analised if you offer them up for discussion, thats part of interacting as intelligent human beings.
If you are uncomfortable with this then dont offer them up for disscussion, I am sorry if I have misrepresented your beliefs, that would be quite unintentional, possibly the result of you claiming that you have an opposing veiw to what you think are my veiws.

CB Hotdog ·

Any chance of agreeing to disagree??

Or better still - respecting each other's right to their view/opinion/belief/faith - whatever!!

Herbie - didn't you want to keep any kind of religious discussion off the forum??

Please give it a rest.....:kiss

StenGuns ·

I said before this thread had a hint of pythonism.. It has now grown into a full blown Monty.. If Chapman, Cleese, Idle, Palin et al were to read this thread, you blokes would get jobs as skit writers..

Thats why I've kept coming back.. It's brilliant..

StenGuns ·

M: Ah. I'd like to have an argument, please.
R: Certainly sir. Have you been here before?
M: No, I haven't, this is my first time.
R: I see. Well, do you want to have just one argument, or were you thinking of taking a course?
M: Well, what is the cost?
R: Well, It's one pound for a five minute argument, but only eight pounds for a course of ten.
M: Well, I think it would be best if I perhaps started off with just the one and then see how it goes.
R: Fine. Well, I'll see who's free at the moment.
Pause
R: Mr. DeBakey's free, but he's a little bit conciliatory.
Ahh yes, Try Mr. Barnard; room 12.
M: Thank you.

(Walks down the hall. Opens door.)

Q: WHAT DO YOU WANT?
M: Well, I was told outside that...
Q: Don't give me that, you snotty-faced heap of parrot droppings!
M: What?
Q: Shut your festering gob, you tit! Your type really makes me puke, you vacuous, coffee-nosed, maloderous, pervert!!!
M: Look, I CAME HERE FOR AN ARGUMENT, I'm not going to just stand...!!
Q: OH, oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse.
M: Oh, I see, well, that explains it.
Q: Ah yes, you want room 12A, Just along the corridor.
M: Oh, Thank you very much. Sorry.
Q: Not at all.
M: Thank You.
(Under his breath) Stupid git!!

(Walk down the corridor)
M: (Knock)
A: Come in.
M: Ah, Is this the right room for an argument?
A: I told you once.
M: No you haven't.
A: Yes I have.
M: When?
A: Just now.
M: No you didn't.
A: Yes I did.
M: You didn't
A: I did!
M: You didn't!
A: I'm telling you I did!
M: You did not!!
A: Oh, I'm sorry, just one moment. Is this a five minute argument or the full half hour?
M: Oh, just the five minutes.
A: Ah, thank you. Anyway, I did.
M: You most certainly did not.
A: Look, let's get this thing clear; I quite definitely told you.
M: No you did not.
A: Yes I did.
M: No you didn't.
A: Yes I did.
M: No you didn't.
A: Yes I did.
M: No you didn't.
A: Yes I did.
M: You didn't.
A: Did.
M: Oh look, this isn't an argument.
A: Yes it is.
M: No it isn't. It's just contradiction.
A: No it isn't.
M: It is!
A: It is not.
M: Look, you just contradicted me.
A: I did not.
M: Oh you did!!
A: No, no, no.
M: You did just then.
A: Nonsense!
M: Oh, this is futile!
A: No it isn't.
M: I came here for a good argument.
A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
A: It can be.
M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
A: No it isn't.
M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
A: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!

A: Yes it is!
M: Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.
(short pause)
A: No it isn't.
M: It is.
A: Not at all.
M: Now look.
A: (Rings bell) Good Morning.
M: What?
A: That's it. Good morning.
M: I was just getting interested.
A: Sorry, the five minutes is up.
M: That was never five minutes!
A: I'm afraid it was.
M: It wasn't.
Pause
A: I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to argue anymore.
M: What?!
A: If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five minutes.
M: Yes, but that was never five minutes, just now. Oh come on!
A: (Hums)
M: Look, this is ridiculous.
A: I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid!
M: Oh, all right.
(pays money)
A: Thank you.
short pause
M: Well?
A: Well what?
M: That wasn't really five minutes, just now.
A: I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid.
M: I just paid!
A: No you didn't.
M: I DID!
A: No you didn't.
M: Look, I don't want to argue about that.
A: Well, you didn't pay.
M: Aha. If I didn't pay, why are you arguing? I Got you!
A: No you haven't.
M: Yes I have. If you're arguing, I must have paid.
A: Not necessarily. I could be arguing in my spare time.
M: Oh I've had enough of this.
A: No you haven't.
M: Oh Shut up.

(Walks down the stairs. Opens door.)

M: I want to complain.
C: You want to complain! Look at these shoes. I've only had them three weeks and the heels are worn right through.
M: No, I want to complain about...
C: If you complain nothing happens, you might as well not bother.
M: Oh!
C: Oh my back hurts, it's not a very fine day and I'm sick and tired of this office.


(Slams door. walks down corridor, opens next door.)

M: Hello, I want to... Ooooh!
H: No, no, no. Hold your head like this, then go Waaah. Try it again.
M: uuuwwhh!!
H: Better, Better, but Waah, Waah! Put your hand there.
M: No.
H: Now..
M: Waaaaah!!!
H: Good, Good! That's it.
M: Stop hitting me!!
H: What?
M: Stop hitting me!!
H: Stop hitting you?
M: Yes!
H: Why did you come in here then?
M: I wanted to complain.
H: Oh no, that's next door. It's being-hit-on-the-head lessons in here.
M: What a stupid concept.

warb ·

haha..... damn, this post still on.....

CB Hotdog ·

hehehe...

CB Hotdog ·

They must have paid for the course of ten arguments!

Herbie ·

I'm not promoting any religion,😎
I am trying to promote intelligent disscussions/debate etc.

People getting wound up can't be reading the posts properly,
None of it should be cause for aggravation.:kiss

People who are getting mad, just chill and re read the posts.

StenGuns ·

I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid!

CB Hotdog ·

Believe me, I'm not getting mad - or annoyed, and I'm definitely not offended by the topic....Just kinda bored with it now.....

I just don't see where this is going or how it is going to end as you are not arguing over a fact - you are arguing over a belief/belief system (I may stand corrected coz I can't be bothered going into the detail of this entire thread - but that's the gist of it).

And I know I'll get the standard "don't read it/ignore it" - but c'mon.

What does everyone else think about this thread?? Silly andoutta hand - or intelligent adult debate ??

warb ·

StenGuns wrote:I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid!
I just paid!

CB Hotdog ·

CB Hotdog wrote:Believe me, I'm not getting mad - or annoyed, and I'm definitely not offended by the topic....Just kinda bored with it now.....
But why would you believe me just coz I ask you to - you should not believe this blindly, and I should present proof to back up my statement. Hmmm how to prove feeling? Does this mean they don't exist? Or does it just mean I should question them to be sure?? If I believe them without question - am I an idiot? Am I the idiot in my group?

God (no pun intended) what am i saying?? I have no idea who's theory/argument I may have just supported by that little spiel - but isn't it about as silly as that? (Or have I just raised a really highly intelligent philasophical question worthy of an adult debate)..ARRRGGH

CB Hotdog ·

I'm going for a 30 day free trial... the wonders of technology ...(you can download it at freeargument.com/10 sessions/good argument/or just plain boring argument)

StenGuns ·

No you didn't

\
warb wrote:
StenGuns wrote:I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid!
I just paid!

Herbie ·

you already stated its a feeling, you don't claim it to be a fact😀
if you did, we could start discussing that.

How will half the other threads finish? we dont know, I believe its a mystery!:blush
But I cant be bothered to call it a fact as it would take even more energy to prove that.

CB Hotdog ·

Uh Oh:duh

CB Hotdog ·

Did not:thumb

StenGuns ·

Go forth thou worthy arguer.. Having paid thy tithe for 30 minutes of argument you may abandon thy reason and blindly argue with all you see.. Do not tarry by the wayside of politeness or tolerance.. nor feel sadness for those weary of threadness.. Smite those down who dare to accuse you of faith or non faith.. For thou art worthy.. aaaaaraarrggh

Oh bollocks


CB Hotdog wrote:I'm going for a 30 day free trial... the wonders of technology ...(you can download it at freeargument.com/10 sessions/good argument/or just plain boring argument)
[Edited on 25/3/2005 by StenGuns]

StenGuns ·

Did so
:vader

CB Hotdog ·

OK I did - so????**she says with a tremulous smile**

(PS - learnt that word just today in a crossword - now I'm using it in a sentence - what a show off))

PPS - think I should not purchase after the 30 day trial is up - me thinks me can't argue very well - but my boyfriend would certainly disagree - he he he

StenGuns ·

Ohh.. you're a female.. sorry.. not allowed to argue with females.. They can become far too tremulous

[Edited on 25/3/2005 by StenGuns]

Stanley ·

This is the first time I've visited this post...thought it would be appropriate considering that this time of year religon is the main topic...plus after my 7 year old daughters easter bonnet parade she asked me if I believed in god.

Lucky she has a small attention span.

BTW i'm lost because I don't know what the original post was...i'm guessing it was deleted.

Oasis ·

But you're just contradicting me...

CB Hotdog ·

Do you have to pay extra to argue with females??

StenGuns ·

No.. you have to be bloody stupid!!!

CB Hotdog wrote:Do you have to pay extra to argue with females??

StenGuns ·

CB Hotdog.. I would just like to say that I am not responsible for that last remark.. I believe that an Alien entered my being, just as I was about to reply and made me type that ridiculous rubbish.. Of course you can argue with females.. Granted, it may cost a little extra in the long run.. But the making up is always worth it.. Now.. stopping bloody pissing around and start arguing!

CB Hotdog ·

lol

Maybe I'm not a female - maybe I'm gay - did you ever stop to question what you are led to believe??

(Now I'm getting the hang of it - might just take the 30 day trial offer up after all).

Prove it buddy!!

StenGuns ·

That hasn't stopped anyone else.. Just start bloody arguing!
kafer69 wrote:BTW i'm lost because I don't know what the original post was...i'm guessing it was deleted.

CB Hotdog ·

Oh yeh - and another thing - my new word for the day "tremulous" - check the dictionary - not sure you used it correctly when you put it in a sentence..:vader

- and if I'm wrong - i want factual data for proof

getting good at this now.....

StenGuns ·

Right then..... But you just blindly accepted that my body could be taken over by aliens!.. If you could possibly accept that weird proposition.. How can I possibly take you seriously.. You are obviously faking your gayness.. I don't think you know what you believe.. And further more......\aaaarrrgh

Ohhhh sorry, I need to pay more to keep arguing.. just going to the bank.. back in a mini..

CB Hotdog wrote:Prove it buddy!!

StenGuns ·

Tremulous is when your lower lip starts to tremble when you lose an argument..

By the way.. where have all the serious people gone?

CB Hotdog ·

Hmmm.....Ok ok I think I got it......

No I didn't - when did I ever accept that you were taken over by aliens and forced to make a derogartory comment against women????

Hey? hey??

I always knew that came directly from you!!

You'd not only better check what people say - you'd better check what they write..

(I think i'm winning now)

eirecooled ·

13 pages on this thread. awesome! now that we have lined up the bible bashers on one side and the great unwashed on the other. how about a small diversion? who believes that this life is it! you die, kaput! thats it all over red rover or do you believe your spirt or energy is stored and reused or goes up or down.

And if you could choose what you were coming back as, what would it be?

(ps: no supermodel undergarments or seats allowed)

CB Hotdog ·

StenGuns wrote:Tremulous is when your lower lip starts to tremble when you lose an argument..

By the way.. where have all the serious people gone?
Oh, Ok then (insert blushing smiley face that I can't find right now).

Yes I did want to say to the serious people - feel free to carry on - it'sjust much more fun now...

StenGuns ·

CB.. you have won.. I throw myself on the ground and beg for mercy.. Ohh Great Tremulousness.. please forgive me.. I am unworthy to argue with thee..

hehehe that was fun..

CB Hotdog ·

No thank you Stenguns

(She says victoriously raising her hands in the air - with one foot on your sad and sorry beaten heap lying on the floor in despair)

And yes, you may have mercy from my verbal tongue lashing that has become like a runaway train and gaining momentum every second.

😉

I think we may need to be prepared to pay the fee again though as our arguments may be required at some stage in the not too distant future!!:P

StenGuns ·

I agree.. but at least we lightened the tone a little.. See ya soon oh great victorious one



CB Hotdog wrote:No thank you Stenguns

(She says victoriously raising her hands in the air - with one foot on your sad and sorry beaten heap lying on the floor in despair)

And yes, you may have mercy from my verbal tongue lashing that has become like a runaway train and gaining momentum every second.

😉

I think we may need to be prepared to pay the fee again though as our arguments may be required at some stage in the not too distant future!!:P

CB Hotdog ·

Yes, we shall argue soon my son.....

(eww that sounds a bit weird)

Ps - love the little argument icon thingey....

Herbie ·

I much prefer the lighter tone of this thread for a bit, it was getting a bit too heavy and emotional,

O'Lord please dont let me be missunderstood.
Happy dead Jesus day, God Bless.

Herbie ·

Has anyone here seen "The Princess Bride" movie?

This thread reminds me of the duel of the wits between wessley and the short bald man who keeps stating things are "Inconceivable"

you know how it goes,

If you place this cup before me I can sumise that you want me to drink from this cup which is filled with poison,... but given that I know that you know that I am not a fool I clearly cannot drink from the cup before me, but you know that I know that you are not a fool and so clearly I cannot drink from the cup in front of you.

I love that movie.

[Edited on 25-3-2005 by Herbie]

CB Hotdog ·

Herbie wrote:I much prefer the lighter tone of this thread for a bit, it was getting a bit too heavy and emotional,


Yay..

Oasis ·

I like the logic from thet scene in the Life Of Brian, "How do you know she's a witch?"
"What else floats?"
"Very small pebbles?" etc, etc..

penguin ·

What is my other personality????? and where did that come from??? I almost had the crap kicked out of me by my GF at the time for saying that the loch looked 'not as big as on TV' (oh, and that the castles around there were only 'okay'):P

and I just realised, I had best change my title...
<<<yells 'ANDREW!!!!!!!'>>>

the closest I want to get to self flagellation is going to work...mind you,I think the whips would hurt less than dealing with my bossses!!

Oasis ·

Herbie wrote:Has anyone here seen "The Princess Bride" movie?
"Mawiage? Mawiage is but a dweam wivin a dweam......."

"have woo ve wing?"

Starbug ·

welcome to the pit of despair!!! dont even think *cough cough* sorry... dont even think about escaping...

one of my fave films 😀

in reply to eirecooled... i dont believe that we continue on after we die... we just get recycled and used as food for something, when the sun expands into a red giant, we get used as fuel, and when the sun finally goes supernova (a very long time away... dont worry too much about it) then we get used as stardust to make newer stars and planets... the afterlife doesnt seem to gel too well with me thinking about the law of conservation... having all these packets of soul/life energy floating around and not taking part in any physics/chemistry... if all the souls of living things just kept floating around we would have this huge energy deficit and physics just wouldnt work because there wouldnt be enough free energy to smash 2 hydrogen atoms together...
know what i mean? i think im quite happy in the knowledge that im going to get thoroughly recycled in a few billion years.

if my particular configuration of atoms had to come back as something, i would like to come back as a major part of an alien shipboard computer....

Herbie ·

I've had a modem meltdown,
Must be an act of god, trying to show me the errors of my defiant thinking ways!!!
couldn't possibly be anything else, like a power surge created from the dryer repeatedly tripping the safety switch on the same circut sunday morning.

I come to you courtesy of a borrowed modem but cannot remain on borrowed modem forever.

Cheers everyone,
BTW
Who actually Got what I was saying about facts and beliefs and the danger caused by the confusion of the two?
and who just got the shits that I dare attack their God!
and who just thought it was fun to read?
or who thought otherwise?😀

Lams ·

looks like this thread is about to be finished
Thanks to you guys for this discussion I really enjoyed it

hey anthony I think I parked behind you at Nambucca (how do you spell that?) last year! oh wait... all the herbies look the same - is yours the ragtop with the venetian?

Herbie ·

yep, thats mine, although Herbie didnt have a venetian, it seems a shame not to use such a cool accessory and I dont have any other beetles
which car was yours?

Herbie ·

To know the real Jesus would include the fact that what He really taught, and what He really did, is essential for eternal life. Praying to His Father, Jesus said, "This is eternal life: to know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent" (John 17:3, Revised English Bible, emphasis added throughout).

this is excactly the sort of stuff that creates this problem, taken fromA website pretending to be objective! {Click Here}

which I found from the link posted by Vanderaj in what I can only imagine was a move to restir the pot....after the subject had come off the boil.

Can you pick the loop in the first paragraph?
can you see how you must already agree to believe the story in order to be convinced?
or do you go.... hold on,
that doesn't make any sense, why is that belief being called a fact? and then why is it being backed up as a fact by another belief posing as a fact?
Its a bit like the shower cleaner spraypack that says on the back in its intructions...."First start with a clean shower"
isn't that the whole point?
To believe this is a fact you first need to believe this is a fact, and around the loop we go.
who was jesus supposed to be praying to? it says, "His Father," so is that Joseph? or is it God?
if it was Joseph, how does that affect anything?
If it was god? you would first need to believe in the concept of a god,then believe in a god and then to believe he is the one true god, and then this very same one true god would have had to have explained that he holds the key to eternal life!
heck, if you believe all that, then no one need try and explain anything to you ever again, they just have to be able to point to some part of the bible and make up a link to how this supports the story they are telling and away you go.

Is that offensive?

StenGuns ·

Wrong.. I believe this was due to innapropriate references toward the Pope on the day of his passing. Our community is a microcosm of the wider community. therefore we should respect all beliefs and not cause unecessary insult.
Herbie wrote:which I found from the link posted by Vanderaj in what I can only imagine was a move to restir the pot....after the subject had come off the boil.

dodge ·

Thats correct StenGuns.
It was not to stir anything up Herbie.

HotRodMatt ·

StenGuns wrote:Wrong.. I believe this was due to innapropriate references toward the Pope on the day of his passing. Our community is a microcosm of the wider community. therefore we should respect all beliefs and not cause unecessary insult.
Rob is right. That seems to be the reason behind Andrew's post.

However, posts being inappropriate regarding the Bishop of Rome are relative. His statements and writings are considered by a majority of the world's population as being inappropriate particularly where they relate to sexual equality, women's rights, prevention of disease and the rights of a person to their own life and body.

kombikim ·

near death experience in VW = read all this thread:duh in 10 minutes & then go out & try & drive in peak hour traffic

dodge ·

Thats true Matt. It brings up once again the issue of everyone having their own beliefs, but this forum is definately not the place to be airing opinions about the Pope. It will just bring up too many possible defamation issues.

Herbie ·

was it what I said about the pope?
or was it something someone else said about the pope?

dodge ·

no Herbie. I don't remember you making any comments about the Pope. It was recent comments made in the past week. The thread was removed almost as quickly as it was made....

StenGuns ·

"Whoa".. he says, holding his hand up and backing out the door slowly, "I aint buying into this one! .. No sirree!!"

HotRodMatt ·

dodge wrote:It will just bring up too many possible defamation issues.
The dead can't be defamed!

You can publish the most outrageous things about a dead person, true or false and libel laws do not apply.

[Edited on 6-4-2005 by HotRodMatt]

Herbie ·

cool, So I may have set fire to this topic again regarding something irrellevent to me,

Oh Well.
its all good fun.
He lived a long life and feels he did good I expect, so he should be happy now, in his heaven.

no need for tears, that would be self indulgent and inappropriate.
grief is often a selfish act, with little to do with the deceased and mostly to do with the living feeling sad for their own loss.

dodge ·

It doesnt' matter Matt. We'd still like to err on the side of safety.

Herbie ·

thats right matt, just look at jesus

ColumBUS ·

dodge wrote:Thats true Matt. It brings up once again the issue of everyone having their own beliefs, but this forum is definately not the place to be airing opinions about the Pope. It will just bring up too many possible defamation issues.
i think dodge was referring to an argument originated about the pope turning to personal issues.

eg:
pope sucks
no he doesnt... you do!
oh yeah... get F$%@ed!

but apart from defamation and the pope... i still agree with herbie.