For the last year or so, I have been developing a big brake package for the front end of BJ Beetles that I hope to manufacture and sell to other VW enthusiasts. Yesterday, I fitted my prototype package to the front end of my hottie Oval for road testing so I thought I'd take a few pics...
This upgrade consists of modified spindles and a hub and calliper bracket machined from billet. The calliper I have chosen is the common, low-cost and very effective single-piston sliding finned aluminium PBR Corvette/Holden calliper, commonly known as the 'VL Turbo' calliper used on VL-VS Holden/HSV V8s.
The disc is a 290/24mm vented unit made by DBA for an XR8 Falcon. Using as many OE parts as possible means there are no problems with low-cost spares supply in the future. Regular and high-performance brake pads, rebuild kits and rotors will be available almost forever.
The hub is machined with the correct 'spigot' size to positively locate the centre of the wheel, a common (and technically illegal) omission with aftermarket brakes and a common reason for refusal at engineering/rego time. Unlike some aftermarket packages, there is no increase in track and the bearings and seals are standard VW.
With more than double the pad area and a huge increase in heat-absorbing and heat-shedding ability, the braking effectiveness and fade resistance for super-quick street Beetles and Buggies (eg: WRX power, 1916cc, strokers, turbos etc etc) goes without saying.
I have designed the package to fit inside 15-inch or larger Porsche or Ford wheels. Due to the calliper's size (double that of std ATE/Beetle), they will NOT fit inside widened VW wheels.
My prototype runs a Ford stud pattern and Falcon AU 15x6-inch rims, which are a perfect fit under my standard guards. I chose these rims (and the Falcon PCD) for reasons of cost and popularity: Falcon wheels are piled up in wrecking yards, are cheap, and there is a huge range of factory and aftermarket wheels, too. EF-EL 'cop chaser' 15x6-inch rims (with less backspace) are an alternative for people who wish to 'fill out' widened guards, as are the later-model AUII-BA 16x7-inch steel rims. Of course, the Porsche stud pattern will also be available to those who wish to use or retain Porsche wheels. Note, too, that the conversion uses wheel studs - much more user-friendly than VW's original bolts!
After I am happy with the front upgrade performance (currently testing with T3 rear drums) and master cylinder choice, this front brake upgrade will be tested with a disc rear for a super-effective street legal (all-new parts - no restudding) high-performance Beetle brake upgrade.
[Edited on 30/3/2005 by VWCOOL]
[Edited on 2/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
[Edited on 7/6/2005 by VWCOOL]
Gibbo ·
Sounds great! Cant wait to see some pics!
Herbie ·
I can resize the pics for you if thats the trouble,
Just email them to tonedefunkster@hotmail.com
otherwise if its some other problem with posting the pics I'll just sit here staring at the screen till they appear, hahaha
You can understand my interest given I am running 3 times standard power at the moment with plans to more than double that in the future
Cheers Anthony
Craig Torrens ·
Had a look at these yesterday...................faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarken beautiful.
subaru.freak ·
Bit off topic, sorry, but Craig, are you a relative of GT?
Dasdubber ·
Sounds promising - the legality is something that a lot of people would obviously want confirmation for before going down this path. I know there was talk of national standards for such modifications but not sure if they are in place yet, so interstate enthusiasts will probably ask you these sorts of questions re. certification in their particular area.
Good stuff for developing something new though, hats off to you if it all goes ahead!
Craig Torrens ·
subaru.freak wrote:Bit off topic, sorry, but Craig, are you a relative of GT?
who's aking:duh😉
subaru.freak ·
ACP journo . . . Love his work in 4WD Monthly, even though it is Express...
[Edited on 29/3/2005 by subaru.freak]
Flintstones ·
VWCOOL wrote:The calliper I have chosen is the common, low-cost and very effective single-piston sliding finned aluminium PBR Corvette/Holden calliper, commonly known as the 'VL Turbo' calliper used on VL-VS Holden/HSV V8s.
The disc is a 290/24mm vented unit made by DBA for an XR8 Falcon.
VWCOOL, the standard commodore rotor thickness for the VL turbo caliper is 22mm.....
any reason for the thicker rotor?
Cheers
waltermitty ·
Sonds like the ticket . Nice work.
Will these be OK with drop spindles?
what happens for attaching the cailipers to the spindle? If drop spindles such as the CBs were used do you weild new caliper attachment points to them?
MiTcl
Turbo54 ·
keep me posted on legality, and rear disks. I have been looking at various sets of these but also want to run CB dropped spindles. Please keep me posted. Any chance of getting the rotor to a commodore stud pattern eg re-drill or use commodore DBA disks as my rims are commodore stud pattern. Are the disk you are using grooved and drilled?
Thanks
Turbo54
VWCOOL ·
VWCOOL ·
lol... what do YOU reckon is gunna take the punishment better?!
[Edited on 2/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
VWCOOL ·
Sorry about the lack of pics... there are some there now and more will follow.
Thanks for your responses. Some questions answered:
Dropped spindles: The standard spindles must be modified by machining on-centre with the stub axle (as per factory process). An offset spindle will mean custom set-up for machining... and it may mean clearance issue with steering arms etc etc.. so the answer is: Maybe - I will have to take a look! Same answer for Type 3s.. I am involved in a WRX/Fastback transplant at the moment, which will need four-wheel discs for engineering/rego, but I haven't looked that far ahead yet.
Legality: Legality and continued compliance with ADRs or state rego regs is the responsibility of the vehicle owner (ie: Really, you need to get an engineers certificate for this mod). I am very familiar with engineering certification for legal rego of modified cars and have had all the components manufactured accordingly. (eg: no welding; adequate clearance to rim, suspension and steering components; use of off-the-shelf components such as brake lines; adequate cross-sectional area for load-bearing components; provision for centre spigot, choice of OE studs/nuts, radius on all machined edges etc) I am proud to say that all components exceed OE quality.
Commodore rims: My original idea was to use a Commodore PCD so I could "share" wheels with my other car, an HSV. I bought two sets of rims to play with but I soon discovered the backspace/offset of the Commodore rims wasn't suitable. There is a choice of offsets for Fords (EF-EL run 100mm backspace; AU-BA run 125mm) giving the ability to cater for huge neg camber OR pack out flared guards (EF-EL) or keep things nice under standard guards (AU - like my own Beetle in the pics). There is also a 16-inch rim choice with AUII-BA. All things considered, the Ford rims are a more suitable fit and give a wider choice than Commodore. ( :cry: Yes, I'm a Holden man... when I'm not playing Beetles, that is!)
For reasons of cost and simplicity (if you are rebuilding a Bug from the ground up), I recommend using Ford rims. If you already have Porsche (or other) rims, I will be able to supply whatever PCD you like, complete with matching disc. The hub design and rotor I have chosen can accommodate up to 130mm PCD (Porsche).
Having said that, this brake package will fit inside 15x6 Commodore steel 'chaser' rims but the backspace (5mm more than AU) decreases shock tower and swaybar clearance on full steering lock too much for my liking. The AU rims don't suffer to the same degree (although, like most 6-inch fitments on front of BJ beetles, steering lock must be reduced and you can't run too much neg camber). My own car (IRS, BJ Oval) has 'bent' upper arms, camber eccentrics and clearanced shock towers to cater for neg camber; however, for testing I have replaced the upper arms with standard to ensure compatibility with customer cars.
22 vs 24mm rotor thickness: I put a lot of effort into finding the best rotors/pads/callipers/diameter/offset/cost/performance and "bang for the bucks" compromise. I spent months looking at everything from Audi to Subaru to Lexus to Range Rover in wreckers and parts catalogs for 'donor' rotors and callipers that would fit the Beetle without punching out the track width or fouling on the steering etc etc. Some of you may recall my posts here and on other forums quizzing on offsets, calliper piston diameters, etc etc when I couldn't find the info elsewhere. As it turns out AU Falcon (290/24mm) under VL-VS callipers (VL had 22mm, later cars 23mm rotor thickness) was the best match for diameter, rotor height and thickness. And thank goodness, they are cheap and readily available! Slotted, cross-drilled, standard... take your pick! I have had excellent results with slotted rotors in my other cars over the years so that's what I'm using again on my Beetle.
Against my hopes, I discovered today that the standard Beetle master cylinder must be upgraded. I installed a Kombi unit (larger piston) and all looks/feels good so far....
I will update this thread as my testing continues.:thumb
[Edited on 29/3/2005 by VWCOOL]
[Edited on 29/3/2005 by VWCOOL]
[Edited on 30/3/2005 by VWCOOL]
56astro ·
Love to see a pic of a beetle with Ford "chaser" wheels
Herbie ·
I have been considering a similar setup, I want Hebie to stop like he is tied to a tree, I have already wanderered through 2 intersections full of traffic with the brake pedal nearly broken under the force of my foot/feet.
But each avenue I go down has a common belief that the front will just lock and skid before anything else without rear brakes of a similar nature as the vw is to rear heavy for the most part, I guess this makes sense given I have locked the standard front brakes up many times long before the car was suffering any real braking forces.
I ran on my RX3 of a few years ago, chrysler centura front discs and VH commadore calipers, ...... boy did that baby have an anchor!!!! it used to stop as hard as you dared, it was very impressive, no doubt this setup will be similar but maybe only when accompanied with rear discs too,
we'll no doubt all be watching with eager eyes to see how this setup develops,
with all the cheap japanese {Metric} cars filling our wrecking yards, I think there must be at least one very easily modified disc brake setup that fitts the back of a VW, so many front wheel drive big brake setups lying around on dead wrecks.
watching with great interest to see how the testing goes,
Very impressed with the setup so far,
BTW RAV4 rims are ford pre AU pattern and are nearly all neg offset, {If that means they go mostly in and not much out}
I have a set for my Splitty and they are nice and wide look cool too. and were only $40
If that helps anyone!
VWCOOL ·
56astro wrote:Love to see a pic of a beetle with Ford "chaser" wheels
What, like this one?!!
VWCOOL ·
VWCOOL ·
I am keen to 'validate' the big front discs with T3 rear drums as many people already have this set-up on thier hottie Bugs and it would be nice to know you can fit the big front brakes with T3 rear drums and know it's all going to work. But of course, four-wheel discs are the ultimate...
The rear discs we have also been working on is adapted from the tried and tested Falcon EA setup. Many other Veedubbers have fitted these over the years. The Falcon rear hardware is relatively inexpensive, is compatible with cable handbrake, has spare parts backup and offers reasonably-priced slotted and crossdrilled options. The first set we built/adapted is Porsche stud pattern but hasn't seen the road yet (currently on a rolling shell).
The Falcon rear package will be installed on my car as soon as I have completed testing with the 'Big Disc'/T3 drum rear setup. To keep variables to a minimum, all my testing will be on 205/60 tyres on all four corners. Diffeent diamter tyres/wheels front-to-rear can alter brake bias slightly, resulting in premature lockup at one end or the other. I may find I need to alter front/rear bias with a proportioning valve. In the interests of keeping cost and complexity to a minimum, hopefully not...
(PS: I will not be testing with standard 1500 Beetle rear drums as I don't know of anyone who uses them in performance applications!)
For now, the prototype rear disc brakes use a machined and redrilled T3 drive plate but I am also investigating having new hubs manufactured to make the complete brake package absolutely 100 percent brand-new components with no re-studding/welding of hubs. This will cost me quite a few $ (I better sell some more Hoodjax, huh!) but I am keen to offer a no-ifs, no-buts, no-compromises, no-questions, 100 percent 'engineerable' and legal brake conversion for high performance VWs.
[Edited on 30/3/2005 by VWCOOL]
56astro ·
Awesome
great work G.
I'm having a little chuckle thinking what'd b like under full, non-skiding braking in a 800kg beetle with those mothers as brakes
:thumb
VWCOOL ·
56astro wrote:Awesome
great work G.
I'm having a little chuckle thinking what'd b like under full, non-skiding braking in a 800kg beetle with those mothers as brakes
:thumb
yeah, I love big brakes... I had 330mm twin-pistons on my old Commodore and it was great... I reckon these jobbies will be better!
[Edited on 30/3/2005 by VWCOOL]
MikeM ·
VWCOOL wrote:Against my hopes, I discovered today that the standard Beetle master cylinder must be upgraded. I installed a Kombi unit (larger piston) and all looks/feels good so far....
Which Kombi unit? Early single circuit or Latter duel circuit.
Was it a straight bolt in or did you have to modify something?
Maybe a picture would help. Thanks.
VWCOOL ·
It's a late-model (74-82, I think) dual circuit unit that I had to adapt with a bit of stuffing around. Looks similar to Beetle, but isn't... 😉
MikeM ·
VWCOOL wrote:It's a late-model (74-82, I think) dual circuit unit that I had to adapt with a bit of stuffing around
What did you have to adapt, what in particular was different, the way it bolts on? the way the plunger works? etc
VWCOOL ·
I had to shorten the pushrod, blank-off two line-outs and then add T-pieces to the remaining two line-outs to accept FL, FR, R lines plus brake light switch, re-make and re-route most of the brake lines, play with the reservoir hoses using new grommets (because the Beetle lines don't simply plug in), and use two new high tensile bolts and nuts to hold it in the car because the mounting flange on the Kombi MC casting isn't threaded like the Beetle one... apart from that, it was direct bolt-in! :duh. Just now, I bled the whole system and it seems to work okay now with a rock-solid pedal!:thumb
Let the tyre destruction begin!😉
[Edited on 30/3/2005 by VWCOOL]
[Edited on 30/3/2005 by VWCOOL]
tassupervee ·
VW Cool
If it help you.
There are one piece rear disc/hubs readily available (T-3) which are quite affordable.
These are the clobber of choice for disc brake conversions on Formula Vees
Bolt right on.
From memory, 9mm thickness which should be adequate for rears.
I cant see any reason not to be able to get them undrilled sos you can drill them for any stud pattern that gives you a stiffy.
The discs are plain but can be slotted easily.
This may be an option for you to consider as it will cut down on a few manufacturing processes.
L8tr
E
VWCOOL ·
9mm is to thin for the EA calliper... :cry:
Kafer Lover ·
This sounds the bees knees, what is your expected timing for having them 'on the market?
VWCOOL ·
Kafer Lover wrote:This sounds the bees knees, what is your expected timing for having them 'on the market?
As soon as I am 100 percent happy with how they perform. I have put lots of effort into this little 'pet project' and although I'm keen to supply them to others, having got this far, I'm not going to cut any corners. I want to rack up a couple of thousand test kays just to be sure - all is looking good so far - and then do final costings of all the components. Fingers crossed, and with other commitments considered (manufacturing brakes is not my 'real' job; like the Hoodjax that I also make, it's a diversion from the 'real world'!) I reckon four to six weeks 😀
[Edited on 31/3/2005 by VWCOOL]
Herbie ·
Although it may be condidered a patch rather than a design, space plates the same shape as the ea falcon brake pad, one each between the caliper piston and the brake pad, surely would do the trick, even an old set of pads with the meat machined off them and a relief through the centre for the spring.
This would allow the disc thickness to be variable,
Fiat used the same rear disc setup on heaps of different models, so they should be cheap and available to buy, they would be closer to the disc thickness of the other T-3 discs available, and they have a cable handbrake too, I held onto a set for years till one day I got all purge the rubbishy and chucked them out. They were Fiat 124 Callipers and discs.
Maybe this helps someone, Maybe I'm talking crap, who knows? its a mystery! :P
VWCOOL ·
Don't take this the worng way... 😉 but it's much better to use all compatiible factory original equipment components - to stay away from the problems of 'patching' with junk parts!
[Edited on 31/3/2005 by VWCOOL]
Herbie ·
yes I agree, do it once and do it right, thats my bodgee alter ego coming out,:P
VWCOOL ·
lol... I been there, done that!:thumb
tassupervee ·
The calipers a m8 of mine is using for his own disc brake kit for F-Vees are a generic single sided caliper found on dozens of small taiwanese/korean and hyundai comes to mind.
They are cheap and readily available new and may be another angle to enable you to employ one peice hub/disks.
Just another thought.
L8tr
E
VWCOOL ·
Flintstones wrote:
VWCOOL wrote:The calliper I have chosen is the common, low-cost and very effective single-piston sliding finned aluminium PBR Corvette/Holden calliper, commonly known as the 'VL Turbo' calliper used on VL-VS Holden/HSV V8s.
The disc is a 290/24mm vented unit made by DBA for an XR8 Falcon.
VWCOOL, the standard commodore rotor thickness for the VL turbo caliper is 22mm.....
any reason for the thicker rotor?
Cheers
After doing some bedding-in of the new rotors with old half-worn out pads, I have just fitted new Bendix Ultimate brake pads and although it's a 24mm disc in a calliper designed for one that is 23mm thick, they fitted okay!
VWCOOL ·
Did some testing of the big brake conversion today: I have just returned from a reasonable drive along some hilly twisty terrain to 'bed-in' the new pads against the vented and slotted discs. As explained earlier in this thread, I am testing my big brakes with the T3 rear drums that I have had on the car for years before I install the rear disc package we have been working on, for testing with the vented fronts.
For max traction during testing, I have fitted a set of 'chewing gum' semi-comp Falken tyres. My Beetle is fitted with a standard 1600cc 'mule' engine at the moment so it takes a fair while to get to 100km/h, but four back-to-back runs from 100-0 didn't result in any fade or even a whiff of distress from the front brakes.
When I get my (much quicker) 1916 engine back in, I intend to test with 10 back-to-back full-throttle 100km/h-0 cycles which as far as I know, is an industry standard fade test for OE manufacturers and most state rego authorities.
At this stage, as far as I can tell (by myself) the fronts are tending to lock before the rears but I will fit another set of tyres to 'destruct' for 'lock-up point' testing at a later time.
But with nose-dragging braking performance, it's so far, so good!:thumb:thumb:thumb
57kombi ·
Not trying to rain on your parade, But, disc kits are already available from places like CSP . these are German engineered , use General Motors replaceable parts and with these kits you do not have to modify the spindles and you can also keep your original wheels, even wide 5 bolt .
Kits cost about $1200,
Like I said its great that you are doing these things but why, when you have to do so much work and also go to the expense of fitting Ford wheels??
Cheers
Dave
bugboymatt ·
57kombi wrote:Not trying to rain on your parade, But, disc kits are already available from places like CSP . these are German engineered , use General Motors replaceable parts and with these kits you do not have to modify the spindles and you can also keep your original wheels, even wide 5 bolt .
Kits cost about $1200,
Like I said its great that you are doing these things but why, when you have to do so much work and also go to the expense of fitting Ford wheels??
Cheers
Dave
There tested to german specs too which i do believe are the most stringent there going !!!! So would have to be good to reach TUV approval in Germany.
[Edited on 2-4-2005 by bugboymatt]
57kombi ·
That is correct, they are the best you can get for beetles and kombis,
All I am thinking is the price of these ones would have to be less than $500 to make it worth while, as you have to have the spindles modified and also change the wheels, which isnt going to be cheap if you want a nice set.
Like I said I just cant see the point if they are not going to be very cheap.
Cheers
Dave
VWCOOL ·
lol... I know what's out there! And I'm happy to compare mine with thiers... but I don't think there is much of a comparison unless you're looking at a vented high-performance setup like.. well, like what? Is the CSP kit a high-performance vented kit? Er... no!
Most commercially-available kits seem to give roughly equivalent performance to standard Beetle front discs. Or with dodgy calliper/MC matching, worse performance. They certainly don't seem to have the specs or ability that I have designed into my little vented package.
Even with good pads and specially-manufactured slotted rotors, my Beetle's brakes (with T3 rear drums) used to fade when punished on-road and track. That's why I've gone one better and engineered big 290x24mm vented front brakes from a 1800kg V8 muscle car into my 800kg Beetle.
Originally, I did this conversion for myself and my own car, but was encouraged to 'go public' and think about supplying others by other VW enthusiasts who saw what I was doing.
Expense? The Ford wheels cost me $80. Uh, that's less than what most people want for a set of 15x6-inch VW rims... And as for $500.. you are dreaming. That doesn't even buy me the precision machining for one side of this upgrade, let alone bearings, seals, brackets, callipers, studs, nuts, rotors and pads! I am chasing an extreme level of performance from these brakes, not a low price.
These brakes are not for $3000 P-plater's cars. You want stock discs - buy stock discs. As I discovered years ago, stock discs are actually quite good (up to a point) with decent pads! You want cheap? Go right ahead!
But if you want almost one-inch thick, virtually fade-free ventilated front disc brakes with a big, sticky pad that will mate up with almost-as-serious rear discs and survive under a Scooby WRX transplant, stroker, turbo, healthy 1916, etc, be street legal in all states and be easy to maintain, I might be able to help 😉
[Edited on 2/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
[Edited on 2/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
57kombi ·
lol.
As a matter of fact they can be purchased VENTED. Just check any UltraVW mag.
They are CNC machined cast alloy hubs with rotors and wheel bearings installed, new 48mm GM calipers brake hoses and fitting instructions. and are TUV approved which is far superior to any approval needed in Australia.They keep the wide 5 so you can keep your standard wheels or the set of BRW's/Empis that you already have.
I mentioned the cost of the wheels.
Do you really think that anyone going to this expense is going to stick crappy Ford steel wheels to there vehicle after spending this amount of money, I doubt it, they will have to purchase some mags, that is what I was on about re the price.
Also on these disc brakes, no modification of the spindle is required.
If they dont suit your needs fair enough, I was only mentioning the fact that Vented discs are availabe in wide 5.
So what would you be selling yours for then.
Suprise me!!
Cheers
Dave
malcolm ·
it doesn,t matter if brake kits are tuv approved they need to be adr complient in australia and if you can use brakes that are used on australian approved cars it makes engineering easier and parts cheaper a very good rear caliper to use is a 1980/1984 front subi caliper great piston size cheap can use a kombi disk and has the cable handbrake actuator due to subi having the handbrake on the front.
VWCOOL ·
57Kombi, I mentioned earlier in this thread that my choice of Falcon wheels means you can buy ANY AU factory Ford or aftermarket wheel you like with $20 steelies for 'budget' and hand-built Simmons etc at the four-figure end of the scale.
In other words, spending big money on wheels in NOT necessary to use these brakes. So, if like me, you don't mind sticking $20,000 worth of engine and running gear under a $500 shell, ex-taxi steelies are 'the go'!
I also mentioned earlier, I have made sure this upgrade will fit inside 5x130 Porsche wheels that are a common fitment for 'show' and 'go' Beetles. They also fit inside Commodore rims (although Commodore rims are not as 'happy' under a ball-joint Beetle due to offset) which gives, in my opinion, an enormous range of wheels to choose from.
Not many people attempt to make serious street/comp cars or buggies out of pre-68 link-pin cars with the classic 'wide five' wheels. Lack of wheel supply/choice, lack of centre spigot (therefore difficulty balancing etc etc) lack of strength and adjustment in front end are just some of the reasons why.
[Edited on 2/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
[Edited on 2/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
VWCOOL ·
malcolm wrote:it doesn,t matter if brake kits are tuv approved they need to be adr complient in australia and if you can use brakes that are used on australian approved cars it makes engineering easier and parts cheaper a very good rear caliper to use is a 1980/1984 front subi caliper great piston size cheap can use a kombi disk and has the cable handbrake actuator due to subi having the handbrake on the front.
This is a front vented upgrade, not rear! See pic below - sorry it's sideways but I'm sure you get the idea!
For reasons of cost and ease of fitment, pre-EF Falcon is the best rear disc upgrade for VWs, I reckon
And Malcolm, you are right about the ADRs... they are the only ones that matter in Australia!
[Edited on 2/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
57kombi ·
Yes but if they can pass the German TUV, they will piss it in over any ADR.
Also I used the wide 5 as most on here have early vehicles but the CSP brakes are alos available in the later 4 bolt pattern.
For about the same price of $1200.
Come on how much are you going to sell yours for???
I only ask as before you edited I am sure a figure of $1500 was posted????
Cheers
Dave
VWCOOL ·
I have spent roughly $3000 so far in materials and contracted machining to get the prototype brakes onto my car to the stage where they able to be tested. When people started asking me, I figured around $1500 for the kit.... But with initial finger-count costings, it looks like it will be more than that
None of the engineers I know/use recognise TVU for aftermarket. They rely on inspection of components. And as for wide- fives... you should get out more. The 60s are over
[Edited on 3/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
ducky ·
This is fun better than reality tv. I like ingenuity.
bugboymatt ·
Tarox do some nice 6 piston calipers for veedubs 😉
bugboymatt ·
Dave, yeah 60's are over time to get rid of that old bus ya have there and get a modern one !!! Maybe a toyota Tarago or something !!!
Don't know what they'll give ya for trade in tho !!!!
VWCOOL ·
six piston... yeehah! :thumbBut I'm finding the single-piston sliding PBRs seem to work okay too!
bugboymatt ·
Just out of interest. What does it cost to get and fit good old porsche brakes here in oz! I think theres a couple of peeps using them !!
malcolm ·
complete steel porsche with single piston caliper $800 per arm alloy complete arms with brakes $1500 per arm if you want to use the porsche stud pattern its the best way to go and easier to engineer but I found a good supplier at good prices I got a complete 944 rear suspension for $700 but I sold the brake assem of the arms for $300 and will be using honde NSX rear brakes with the 5x 114.3 stud pattern the guy I got the porsche brakes from is a Honda wreckers in westall road springvale vic.
pete wood ·
I'd rather use something off a local performance car than the CSP stuff. I tried to tell people this before.
With local stuff I can go to repco and buy whatever pads I want from bargain stockers to heavy duty race pads, I can also pick up a whole new caliper for not much money. Or I can go to the wreckers and buy 3 pairs of caliper for a few hundred dollars.
I'm sure this is not the case for the CSP stuff. I know it's well made. But the ADRs are the most important things for local engineers. They couldn't care less about german regs. If they know what local car it's off they are much happier, otherwise they have to do wall sorts of weird brake tests to varify it. They'd rather avoid that and so would I.
Besides, who would you rather support, and aussie business or a german business?
MikeM ·
What is this CSP stuff everyone is talking about. Got any links or anything?
VWCOOL ·
pete wood wrote:I'd rather use something off a local performance car than the CSP stuff. I tried to tell people this before.
With local stuff I can go to repco and buy whatever pads I want from bargain stockers to heavy duty race pads, I can also pick up a whole new caliper for not much money. Or I can go to the wreckers and buy 3 pairs of caliper for a few hundred dollars.
I'm sure this is not the case for the CSP stuff. I know it's well made. But the ADRs are the most important things for local engineers. They couldn't care less about german regs. If they know what local car it's off they are much happier, otherwise they have to do wall sorts of weird brake tests to varify it. They'd rather avoid that and so would I.
Besides, who would you rather support, and aussie business or a german business?
... that's exactly the philosophy that I have, too, and the reason why I have used standard unmodified Holden, Ford and VW components as far as possible.
As I have mentioned before in this thread, using components designed and validated by their manufacturers (PBR, BTR/Dana, DBA, Holden and Ford) in Australia for 2000kg Australian V8 sedans means that local Recognised Engineering Signatories have no reason to be uncomfortable approving these brakes on a modified vehicle. Imported callipers not used on Australian market (ADR complied) vehicles (including aftermarket brands) do not offer the same confidence.
Brembo, Wilwood, AP is all sexy and very capable product when used in thier intended applications. However, individual components can be expensive and in many cases can never be legally installed on a street car due to lack of durability testing and track-only design (such as no rubber piston seals for dust exclusion). Yeah, they look good and you can brag to your mates... but I bought Bendix Ultimate brake pads at the local milk bar 😉 the other day and I think the calliper piston seals cost $8 per side. Yep... eight. Two of these :beer:
The callipers and calliper cradles are UNMODIFIED in my upgrade - other kits (for all sorts of cars, not just VWs) I have seen over the years use butchered OE cradles which are a durability and safety concern.
My upgrade's flexible brake lines are also unmodified for the same reason - safety, durability and legality.
As I outlined earlier, I have also researched appropriate wheels for this upgrade (the calliper is too big to fit inside a VW rim centre). As my pics show, I can confidently say that 15x6-inch AU Falcon wheels do the job under standard guards. Yes, there is a minor loss in turning circle... exactly the same as many of us experience with 15x6-inch VW rims under standard guards. This upgrade has also been designed for Porsche alloys - everything fits.
I would like to have been able to install this upgrade as a 'bolt-on' without diassembling the front end (ie removing the stub axle adding to the time required to install and upsetting the front end alignment etc) but I found it impossible to fit my big calliper, its cradle and a rotor of this size (290x24mm) to a standard VW stub without increasing vehicle track dimension. The track increases that some other brake kits force you to live with can upset suspension and steering geometry and force wheels to rub on mudguards.
There is no increase in track with my brake upgrade.
The calliper brackets and hubs I had made are one-piece items (no dodgy welding) that are laser-cut and machined from steel with appropriate (huge!) cross-sectional area and corner radii etc etc. These brackets far exceed the original VW's dimension for the calliper mounting 'ears' (bolt-holes). In fact, they are bigger than the brackets that HSV and FPR use on the 'Performance' brake packages for 300kW/1800kg cars...
The forged VW stub axle is machined (not gas-axed which can upset metallurgy etc) to accept the new bracket once again using appropriate machining practice.
But of course, the real reason I am doing this to my own car is because there is a very high 'operational ceiling' with these components.
In other words, ventilated V8 brakes on a Beetle ROCK!
[Edited on 4/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
Turbo54 ·
VW Cool, keep me updated with what your doing,
Cheers, T54
VWCOOL ·
yep I will be keeping this thread updated
Gracey ·
VW Cool, all I can say is Excellent Reading. Oversized brakes always rock, and these puppy's look huge.:thumb
1303 ·
Good to see some decent aussie engineering . I remember hearing that a common VL brake upgrade was to go for the early 4 piston Skyline caliper ... Apparently this was a bolt on swap , that would provide some serious stopping on a beetle.
[Edited on 4/4/2005 by 1303]
gayanne ·
There are a lot of valid points,bigger the brakes bigger the stopping power.VWcool your brakes are fine but are only cool for road use only.Using AP,Brembo etc are the best but are used mainly for racing just and over kill for road use but look fat under any car.I use APS and WILWOOD for racing and i would never use anything less for racing to risk less stopping power.JVLRacing
VWCOOL ·
gayanne wrote:There are a lot of valid points,bigger the brakes bigger the stopping power.VWcool your brakes are fine but are only cool for road use only.Using AP,Brembo etc are the best but are used mainly for racing just and over kill for road use but look fat under any car.I use APS and WILWOOD for racing and i would never use anything less for racing to risk less stopping power.JVLRacing
Generally, the bigger the brakes, the better the fade resistance. More metal means the brakes can absorb more heat before the pads get too hot and go 'off' or fade. Larger brakes (such this upgrade I have designed for my Beetle) are ventilated so have more than double the surface area for quicker heat dissipation.
Slotting (not essential, but I have chosen slots for my prototypes) helps deglaze pads (at the expense of some operational life) and helps allow gas emitted by hot pads to escape from between the pad and the rotor surface, helping redue the 'butter in a frypan' effect of a hot pad uselessly sliding over the rotor's surface on a layer of boiling gas.
On top of all that, a larger pad provides more initial 'bite', takes longer to get hot AND is able to dissipate heat quicker.
Mount these bigger pads in a finned alloy calliper like the PBR single-piston slider I have chosen (unlike the Beetle's steel ATE units) over vented discs and put them under a car of half the mass capability of the brakes and I would say it wil be very, very, very difficult to make these brakes 'go away'...
Gayanne, despite your concerns I don't see why these vented road-based brakes wouldn't be sensational for 'road registered'-class competition Beetles (ie not sports sedans with fabricated suspension).
Many aftermarket racing callipers (such as WILWOOD and AP that you have chosen) are delivered from their manufacturers with the prominent warnings "NOT FOR HIGHWAY USE DESIGNED FOR RACING USE ONLY", as they are not 'validated' for legal road use eg: they don't have piston dust seals etc etc.
From my experience with aftermarket brakes on drag and circuit Commodores etc etc it is also generally recommended they be diassembled and inspected after every race meeting. That is not something that I, or many other people, wish to do for a fast road car!!
[Edited on 5/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
[Edited on 5/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
Gracey ·
Just curious whats the weight difference between standard and your kit vwcool?
VWCOOL ·
Gracey wrote:Just curious whats the weight difference between standard and your kit vwcool?
Yes, I was curious, too, so I chucked 'em on Mum's dodgy old bathroom scales before I fitted them. The extra mass of the vented rotor, larger pads and bigger calliper is roughly 3kg per side: 12 vs 15kg balljoint-to-balljoint
Craig Torrens ·
57kombi wrote:Yes but if they can pass the German TUV, they will piss it in over any ADR.
Also I used the wide 5 as most on here have early vehicles but the CSP brakes are alos available in the later 4 bolt pattern.
For about the same price of $1200.
Come on how much are you going to sell yours for???
I only ask as before you edited I am sure a figure of $1500 was posted????
Cheers
Dave
Dave, I think you better do some more HOMEWORK.
This would be my suggestion for your study itinerary.
#1 Currency Conversion e.g. $1227 Euro to AUS$ or an easier one $696 Euro to Aussie$
#2 Product comparison exercise. (i) looking at pad size (ii) Replacement disc cost (iii) Parts availability (iv)Alloy caliper option.
#3 Customising options available on product order. e.g. Stud pattern options, slotted/cross drilled variants, pad material selection......
#4 Customs Duties,GST and Deliver costs of goods of more than $1000Aus entering into the country, and approx 30kg in weight.
Then maybe share your answers?
Cheers
Craig T
57kombi ·
Sorry I was a hundred dollars out.
At todays rate I can get them fro Roy at Classic.
For $1362.
Cheers
Dave
Craig Torrens ·
gayanne wrote:VWcool your brakes are fine but are only cool for road use only.
WTF..........
Craig Torrens ·
57kombi wrote:Sorry I was a hundred dollars out.
At todays rate I can get them fro Roy at Classic.
For $1362.
Cheers
Dave
And the pad size?
Replacement Disc cost?
Stud pattern availability?.............
I know the kit you are talking about........works well..........but NO comparison with this MONSTER brake kit.
[Edited on 5/4/2005 by Craig Torrens]
jakjones ·
57kombi wrote:Sorry I was a hundred dollars out.
At todays rate I can get them fro Roy at Classic.
For $1362.
Cheers
Dave
I don't like this brake set up , but at least its Australian components etc.
:party
:kiss
:jesus
This stuff is not relevant to the discussion, I hate editing but it had to be done - Moderator.
There is lots and lots of very valuable info in this post, but I suggest maybe take a look at what you are typing before hitting the post reply button - and ask is this still on topic? Is it useful for this discussion?
I am not trigger happy with the edit or delete button so wanted to give a little heads up first. :vader
That aside, I'll always commend someone for doing something different and sharing the idea/info for "useful" debate. It would be a shame to turn this into a shit fight.
[Edited on 5-4-2005 by Dasdubber]
VWCOOL ·
Gee, it's been a busy day!
Yes, this thread is still 'on-topic'... kinda! I'm not the first person in the world to install vented discs to the front of a Beetle and some people are questioning why I am 'reinventing the wheel' by doing it. Yes, there are other commercially available disc kits but like a lot of products, oils ain't oils!
I reckon my upgraded brakes are bigger (thicker discs and larger calliper and pads) and better (wheel choice, captive studs, PCD choice, spare parts, performance!) than the kits that are available, one of which appears to retain the same size brake pad as standard. That's why I put the effort into coming up with better brakes with a larger pad area and with V8-specification vented discs.
Questions, discussion and opinion about all this stuff is always good... as long as it is sensible and/or can be backed up with facts!
I'm off interstate for a week so won't be doing any more hard driving until I get back. I'll let you all know how it goes.... err, stops. 😉Then I'll install the rear discs for even more fun! :thumb:thumb
[Edited on 5/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
Peter Leonard ·
With what I'm currently working on, brakes are starting to become an issue, so I'm also interested in the end result. I've looked at quite a few different brake packages for VWs, and have come out of it with my head swimming with the complexities involved in selecting the right setup. Something about reading up on the variables involved with stopping lends respect to the investigation and construction of something like this.
Now. Time to start selling my body to science.
VWCOOL ·
Yes, as with any 'go where no man has gone before' 😉project, there are lots of variables... tyre pressures can influence how brakes work along with calliper piston size (I have attempted to match/balance performance front and rear as far as possible within OE specs for callipers), master cylinder (I found it necessary to fit a larger one to 'feed' the extra calliper capacity), brake pedal leverage ratio (I'm not playing with that!), friction material (I will be using the same high performance compound front and rear), wheel size (same 15x6-inch front and rear Falcon rims for now with sticky Falkens), weight distribution (can't do much about that unlress I put the engine in the front!:duh) yadda yadda yadda... I am busy dealing with all this stuff to get brakes on my Beetle that work to world-class standards
[Edited on 5/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
Gracey ·
Peter Leonard wrote:Now. Time to start selling my body to science.
I don't think science is that hard up dude:P:P
56astro ·
Gracey wrote:
Peter Leonard wrote:Now. Time to start selling my body to science.
I don't think science is that hard up dude:P:P
I thought all the (half) decent parts had already gone to science
57kombi ·
Jackjones.
Well that was a worthwile post wasnt it??
Cheers
Dave
winerot ·
you cant beat home made
winerot ·
:P
57kombi ·
Now that is funny.
57kombi ·
Jackjones.
Why are you so upset regarding me posting pictures of my bus?
Are you jealous?
Where is your vehicle and did you do it all yourself?
You must be driving a shitter as we have never seen any pics of it.
If you work hard and save up your pocket money, you to might have a vehicle as good as mine one day when your mum and dad let you go for your driving lessons.
I presume you are in your early teens as that is how you come across.
Cheers
Dave
barls ·
settle dave hes not worth it cause if he was he would have posted a pic of his car by now
Kai.A. ·
yeh dave, don't worry about it.
i've never seen a constructive comment by jj. in fact most of the posts are nothing but sh*t stirring!
back on topic tho'
vwcool, i like the look of what you've done, i really like the idea of using local easy to source parts.
good on ya for having a go!
apart from the petty schoolgirl bickering this thread has been a very enjoyable read!!
kai
jakjones ·
57kombi wrote:Jackjones.
Well that was a worthwile post wasnt it??
Cheers
Dave
Yep thanks Dave
I am not upset nor Jealous of your Bus
I don't want pics of any of my cars on here.
If you must know I don't like splittys but each to his own.
My Kombi is a T3 and will always do most things better than a splitty no matter how much u spend on it , but if looks are everthing to u then fine.
I have done several resto jobs, wouldn't like to count them.
I also do my own engine work.
Back on topic what size pistons on those calipers ?
gayanne ·
VWcool your points are valid but racers are not going to use some none proven Brakes that are not tested for racing use they will always use a proven brand name that have worked for years,matching your Brakes agaisnt big name brands is a big ask and a big statement.JVLRacing
gayanne ·
Craig Torrens wrote:
gayanne wrote:VWcool your brakes are fine but are only cool for road use only.
WTF.......... YDH.........you have no idea do you Craig.
Dasdubber ·
jakjones wrote:Back on topic what size pistons on those calipers ?
Yes please, keep it on topic, I hate flexing the moderator muscle but if people keep getting caught up in interpersonal bickering that has no constructive outcome on the original thread, it will be edited. I am sorry, but I'd rather edit than delete/suspend an entire post that has lots of useful info/discussion.
Craig Torrens ·
gayanne wrote:VWcool your points are valid but racers are not going to use some none proven Brakes that are not tested for racing use they will always use a proven brand name that have worked for years,matching your Brakes agaisnt big name brands is a big ask and a big statement.JVLRacing
So JVL.........
front discs and calipers used on a 1800kg vehicle, matched with rear disc and calipers also from an 1800kg vehicle, would not be a benefit on an 800/900kg car???:duh..........all being factory proven components.
This system WILL BE proven before it will be available for interested parties to purchase.
P.S There's plenty of VW racers (CT, JAK,Rudy,Greg,Ben,Myself, etc etc......) using far smaller brakes now...................As a racer I will be first in line to fit this package.
Turbo54 ·
Just interested and I know it's a bit below this package but I haven't heard anyone mention the Shermann conversions you can get. Are these similar setups with using local stuff and is the Shermann conversion 4 wheel disk setup adequate? Does anyone run these? The fact is we are all running light weight cars that really dont need huge stopping power unless we would be doing track work. When was the last time you experienced brake fade? Seriously.
T54
gayanne ·
Craig not once have ive said these brakes are no good, at this time being ther not a proven brake system until they are tested and have a star approval.And yes these brakes would be a benefit to a car under 1300kgs and yes if the affordability is there for budget racing you would buy vwcools brake system but if i had a choice ill still buy a proven brake system which has been around for years that are lighter,raceproven and approved buy many racers. p.s Craig ive built proven racecars and raced as well and crewed learning race craft over many years and what i have learned you dont take short cuts to risk anything.JVLRacing
[Edited on 7/4/2005 by gayanne]
Craig Torrens ·
Show me a proven race system that I can buy "off the shelf" for my street registered VW..................where it needs no modification from "me" (the end user) and is realistically priced, with the same potential stopping power.....................is there one?
What would you recommend JVL as an alternative (equal braking ability) to the system VWCOOL has developed?
And what would this system consist of........and all importantly what will it cost?
gayanne ·
Ok Craig good questions,To get a caliper of the shelf will take some mods. Alternative braking and if not better would be a Porsche 944 setup or other and this is a proven product which is worth $1500 plus i would say this will consist of rotors calipers and still will need to check what size master cyl. and yes mods are needed.Craig i know what you are saying its affordable ,adaptable and their big they need to be tested at all extremes. P.s my braking system for my car cost $35oo with mods calipers,rotors,master cys. track stuff only stopping power unbelievable.JVLRacing
Peter Leonard ·
Right... my body's listed on Ebay... aaaaany minute now...
q:duh y'all are doubting thomases. I gesticulate wildly in your general direction.
I'm interested in the brake package, because I've LOOKED at the pro stuff, and have found it wanting. I usually drive my car on the street, hardly ever in shopping malls, and even more rarely on the track.
Something to consider: the kind of racing/driving you're doing will determine what fluid you're running, what pad compound you're running, and neither of these extreme examples of specialisation are USEFUL ON THE STREET. Brakes, like engines have operating temperatures, and service lives, and intended uses.
Keep the info coming. Keep the raving to a minimum, and above all, please, please tell passing scientists about the bargains going on E-bay.😠
fullnoise ·
Good on you for taking on this project GT.
The Hoodjaks are a good idea that's well engineered and I hope these brakes turn out the same. They're looking good so far.
When you get your 1916 you're welcome to give me a call for a brake comparison test. My car has the typical 1500 front calipers with type 3 rear drums.
Our cars would be the same weight and similar power but the tyre thing would take a bit of head scratching. If you can do porsche pattern I have 2 sets of Fuchs with good rubber that we could each use.
A pyro would also be a good idea to measure the brake temps.
My brakes are reaching their limits. The drums tend to warp and the rotors wear faster than the Bendix pads.
CYA* CT**
* Short for See You
** Not Craig Torrens
56astro ·
Peter Leonard wrote:Right... my body's listed on Ebay... aaaaany minute now...
q:duh y'all are doubting thomases. I gesticulate wildly in your general direction.
Keep the info coming. Keep the raving to a minimum, and above all, please, please tell passing scientists about the bargains going on E-bay.😠
LOL
If only you would use your talent for goodness, instead of evil.
Still waiting for that ride BTW
jakjones ·
So what size pistons are in those slider calipers ??
GT ?
Jak
tassupervee ·
I need to ask JVL a question.
Given your setup cost you 3 and a half grand, It would be fair to say that your setup is not exactly exotic, such as carbon rotors and calipers made from Unobtanium right?
I would guess, Iron rotors and Ally hats and calipers??
Perhaps something like EBC "green stuff" pads or similar?
Dont get me wrong dude, I am not running down your choice of brand/setup at all.
Im sure it works well for you and a legion of others.
So, if the pad material/areas and the disk areas/diameters are similar, and the master/slave cylinders relationship are similar enough, disk material is similar (iron) and a similar pedal effort.
Ignoring any fitting issues, why would a generic Brembo setup such as yours be any different/better to this dudes setup?
Secondly, what needs to be actually "proven"
I would think all these components are already been well and truly "proven" They have been designed, built and tested thoroughly under some pretty tough conditions to pass ADR's
Its quite amusing to see brakes on test, especially when the piston seals melt and the fluid sprays everywhere and catches fire on a yellow hot disk!
At the end of the day braking effort is only an equasion of the disk speed and radius, pad area and friction co-efficient and clamping force (loosely: pedal effort)
The wheels wont really care what the brand name is if both brake setups are similar enough. Racing or road.
Quite often the only difference between a "race" setup and a "road" setup is the pad compound.
I made my own disk brakes for one of my superkarts. The disks were made out of plain (no slots/crossdrilling/vents) Bisalloy 80.
The calipers were machined in 2 halves out of some thick ally plate of unknown spec ( I scavenged it).
These brakes are the same diameter as the really trick cross drilled and slotted superkart specific Kelgate cast iron/billet ally clobber on my F250E superkart (250cc twin cylinder). The very best stuff at the time.
My home made jobs are far superior, in every respects, to the million dollar brand name racing stuff, even using cruddy No-Name pads out of small motocross bikes.
The upshot is that the right "combination" of components was hit on and all parts of the system worked together to produce unbeatable power, feel and control.
There is NO reason in the world, that this dudes brakes will perform any less than the very best aftermarket clobber.
I submit that actually getting a decent set of pad hot enough, for long enough may be the issue!
IMHO, he seems to have researched and constructed his package well and at the end of the day, more than likely the only difference will be the brand name scratched on the side of the caliper.
L8tr
E
gayanne ·
Well tass, My brakes are not what you are discribing and $3500 for my set up is cheap for the quality of my braking which i got from CCI Racing Components which these items value are a lot more. Wilwood Alloy Superlites 4pots fronts with AP alloy hats with still twin ventilating rotors running Tan Carbon racing pads.Rears AP Lockheeds 2pots on custom made drilled disc supply fluid is 2 AP Tilton racing 3/4master cly. worth another $800. Like i said earlier Tass iam sure vwcool brakes will work fine for people who dont want to make mods fitting to there cars.Iam sure your brakes work fine but ill prefer to use my package over the rest and its a proven package that most professional racers would use in sportsedan etc.JVLRacing
[Edited on 10/4/2005 by gayanne]
tassupervee ·
Thats K dude, Im not casting aspersions on your system but I just cannot fathom why you seem to dismiss VWCools setup based on some ambiguous pix and a short written description thats all.
Its just that your comments smack a little of "if it doesnt have a brand name on the side then it cant be that wonderful"😎
Nothing more sinister than that.
L8tr M8
E
gayanne ·
Tass my comments are not to bag vwcools brakes its about making people think before jumping into a pit before doing there homework and to prove the product ,get the star of approval then have a brand name so you are reconized.If you dont have a brand name how do people notice your product.I cant think to see how people can compare brakes to the likes of Alcon Brembos AP Wilwoods and Pbr even Porsche use the likes of these brands. P.s Good topic,Good debate.JVLRacing
malcolm ·
a friend used the pbr brakes on a balljoint front end as vwcools and the ford eb caliper on the rear the car a porsche speedster rep finished in the top 10 at the dutton rally. you can also legally use AP calipers on a street car with any brake upgrade front to rear balance is always an issue. at extra cost I,ll be using a decel pedal box assembly to maximize balance and allows the user to use ifferent master cylinders .
malcolm ·
how are you going to bias the front to rear , and are you going to get the complete assembly engineered and brake tested by a engineer because safty is the word. under hard conditions do the calipers expand causing pads to drop out .
tassupervee ·
gayanne wrote:Tass my comments are not to bag vwcools brakes its about making people think before jumping into a pit before doing there homework and to prove the product ,get the star of approval then have a brand name so you are reconized.If you dont have a brand name how do people notice your product.I cant think to see how people can compare brakes to the likes of Alcon Brembos AP Wilwoods and Pbr even Porsche use the likes of these brands. P.s Good topic,Good debate.JVLRacing
JVL
Dude, Im not suggesting at all that you have bagged VWC's clobber.
im just saying that you seem to have have dismissed his product based on lack of "being proved"
I dont understand? The products, as i have previously pointed out, are well and truly proven, on a far tougher and heavier testing ground that a relatively lightweight kraut.
I would submit that those components have been proven well in excess of your exotic stuff in a pre-production sense to gain ADR compliance on the vehicles they are currently on.
Of course, your stuff has been tested thoroughly in the field but what subjective pre-production testing has any of that stuff been subjected to as far as stringent ADR compliance.
I would say little, if not any at all. Id also go as far as to say that the development of that stuff is more an evolutionary thing based on feedback/destruction from race programmes with the benefit of regular stripdowns and inspection that that kind of hybrid lightweight "racing" clobber demands on a regular basis.
VWC's stuff is designed and tested under a extreme range of condition to their very destruction under controlled conditions in addition to feild testing, keeping in mind a long service life under little or in most cases, NO regular maintenance at all!
Again, if the various factors are similar, pad area and compound disk dia blah blah blah, the brakes will work equally as well as your brand name clobber.
I would go as far to suggest that VWC's equipment would comfortably match your clobber in overall performance and outlast your stuff to the magnitude of 5:1
There is NO real black art to ordinary brake design and construction at all. There are very few magical engineering techniques in the brakes we are debating that would set apart to ANY extent, your tricky name brand stuff to VWC's apart from sheer size and weight which would be a very important factor on any competitive race car.
There are no magical secrets in the centrifugal casting techniques of cast iron nor in the chemical makeup of the rotors.
The same goes for the hats and the calipers unless you are talking stuff such as the 12 opposed piston, one peice calipers made from unobtanium I have played with that are the stuff of the likes of F1, champcar blah blah! Those calipers cost thousands of dollars each (I forget exactly what now) but the cost was obscene. This kind of clobber is a long way out of our orbit!
Choose a diameter, an area, a material, a reasonably forseen weight of vehicle and working speed. Factor in clamping pressure and material of the pads and Voila! Brakes!
Equal in all operating respects apart from superior durability and most likely, slightly greater weight.
There is nothing to prove at all. It has already been done.
in this instance.
Your advantage with your 4 potters is possibly different leading and trailing piston sizes to equallise pad wear
Whether VWC's stuff uses this strategy I cannot say.
IMHO pay your money and take your choice.
L8tr
E
[Edited on 10/4/05 by tassupervee]
tassupervee ·
malcolm wrote:under hard conditions do the calipers expand causing pads to drop out .
Errrrrrrr..ummmmmm...I.............
Sure, this is a common occurrence in late model Fords.
The owners handbook has a detailed description of how to put them back in after hard braking adventures!
You 7 yo son could replace them easily on the side of the road.....M8:P:P😘P:thumb:thumb:thumb😉😉😉😉😉😉😉😉😉😉😉😉😉:duh
L8tr
E
gayanne ·
OK Tass now your rating vwcs brake set up to mind 5:1 you are joking,I think some home work is needed here mmmmm.Question wheres the balance in this system from front to back? What about sizes of master cyls,release of cyl.ratings after pedal push of after braking,do you use two cyls to compensate for ample flowing of fluid from front to rears ,all these technical egs need to be ask and you are telling me its all in the pads and all calipers work the same!mmmmJVLRacing
Che Castro ·
Whats the advantage/disadvantage of a sliding single piston caliper (like the holden PBR one) over a twin piston opposing fixed caliper (like the stock ATE units)?
VWCOOL ·
Holy fUkc! I go fishing for a few days and look what happens!
gayananne - these brakes are designed for my road car. They use all ADR-certified brake components from one of the worlds largest brake manufacturers PBR who supply OEs on every contenent on earth except Antarctica, where there are no car factories. The rotors are from DBA who although smaller and without the production volumes of PBR, do a sensational cast-iron disc. From the tone of your posts, it seems you are are a brand-name junkie with lots of stickers on his car....?
Me? I just want big, no-nonsense bolt-on brakes for my street Dubbie without the legal, enginering, legal, durability and expense and engineering and maintenance and fitment legal problems that aftermarket gear will give me. Using ALL OE ADR components as listed earlier in this thread give me that.... Read the posts - it's all there...
Ever seen a road car complied with comp-grade Wilwoods? No. Me neither. And that's for the reasons I outlind in earluer posts.
I fail to see why my brakes won't be a great upgrade for a Beetle used in comp such as sprints, hillclimbs and Targa events and that;s what I plan for my car. Plenty of Commodores, HSVs, Falcons and Tickfords in these events, I think you will agree...
You have failed to provide ANY reason why my brakes won't work in a comp car apart from the 'brand name'... Yet, there are MANY reasons why aftermarket callipers WON'T work for legal or durability reasons on the street. You really should read the instructions...
To Tassie, CT, Craig Torrens and others here.. thanks for the interest. Testing continues as soon as I get back from my top end fishing trip 😉
PS. I'm happy to provide a PBR sticker to anyone who is intersted... :P
[Edited on 11/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
gayanne ·
VWcool like i said for the last time,your brake set is ok ,not once have you told anybody about changing master cylinders to compensate for bigger brakes which they are,wheres the balance between front and back braking fluid travel ,ive givens enought egs you just cant put these calipers on and not think about this.Vwcool im not on here to knock your brakes but campariing your system with likes of my set up and other name brands mate thats a big call. P.S Saftey is my opinion.JVLRacing
Gracey ·
Gayanne, read the first page dude, Vwcool said he had to change to a kombi master cylinder not long after this thread started.
gayanne ·
Thanks Gracey i see,mmmmmKombi cyl 23mm to Beetle 19mm that covers fronts.JVLRacing
Craig Torrens ·
gayanne wrote:VWcool like i said for the last time,your brake set is ok ,not once have you told anybody about changing master cylinders to compensate for bigger brakes which they are,wheres the balance between front and back braking fluid travel ,ive givens enought egs you just cant put these calipers on and not think about this.Vwcool im not on here to knock your brakes but campariing your system with likes of my set up and other name brands mate thats a big call. P.S Saftey is my opinion.JVLRacing
JVL when have your brakes been "race" tested ? Has your car actually made it to the track for a competitive race?
And all of VWcools components are "brands".
As gracey said..............go back and read.
Alex Holzl ·
:thumb
Che Castro ·
lol
malcolm ·
just because the brake components are adr,ed on another vehicle doesn,t mean they will pass brake testing and ie balance between front and back amount of force on brake pedal to stop car without locking up brakes it goe,s on and when a engineer road test the car he will also be testing all of these things and you wont be in the while he,s doing the test .SAFTY IS THE KEY on dry roads and wet.
malcolm ·
pad to piston size better to have larger piston to pad than large pad to piston do to small piston flexing pad and losing contact area.moving mass in a vw is in the rear porsche found this out an increased rear braking capacity.
gayanne ·
Ok Craig my car has been to the track and brakes tested competitive and engineered to work to ther for potential for what they are designed for anything else Craig:P!mmmmJVLRacing
VWCOOL ·
gayanne wrote:VWcool like i said for the last time,your brake set is ok ,not once have you told anybody about changing master cylinders to compensate for bigger brakes which they are,wheres the balance between front and back braking fluid travel ,ive givens enought egs you just cant put these calipers on and not think about this.Vwcool im not on here to knock your brakes but campariing your system with likes of my set up and other name brands mate thats a big call. P.S Saftey is my opinion.JVLRacing
lol... 'My set-up... other name brands'... what a laugh! You made the comparison between my brake components and your aftermarket track-only Wilwood stuff... I never mentioned it at all, yet for some obscure reason, you keep comparing your track-only, non-engineered, non-compliant system made up of at least two different brands to the system I have manufactured for my road-registered Beetle.
Master cylinder? Ummm.. Try reading the first page or two of this thread when I mentioned the master cylinder upgrade... As I have already mentioned in previous posts, one of the procedures I am undertaking while sorting out my front vented brake upgrade is to ensure that this system has correct front-rear brake bias. This is essential for the performance level I want and for Engineer Certificate (eg: when registering a WRX powered Beetle). Front/rear bias can only be validated by on-vehicle testing, although preliminary design/specs can of course be done by calculation or comparison.. which of course I have done. Many, many months ago... how else would I choose the components I have?!
Safety is your opinion... Umm, it's my priority and in the eyes of the law, what you have (wilwood) on your 'track' car is (I'll say it again...) NOT SUITABLE for road use. By using ADR certified components and with some decent engineering of brackets etc, there is absolutely no reason why my front brake upgrade won't pass Engineers Certificate/report for legal registration on a modified Beetle in all states of Australia.
There is no restudding of standard VW hubs;
There is no modification of the OE calliper;
There is no modification of OE calliper cradle/bracket;
The brake lines are unmodified standard OE;
Calliper mounting bolts are standard OE;
There is no heating/heat treatment/welding of any components;
There are no alloy components (such as hubs)
There is adequate clearance between calliper and wheels when using suggested unmodified Porsche or Falcon rims;
The calliper adapter brackets and hubs are one-piece items machined from steel with appropriate radii etc where appropriate and no heat treatment/welding issues (welded brake and steering components are technically illegal unless re-validated or certified with paperwork after testing);
The hubs are machined with a centre spigot (ADR requirement from 1973 - I think! - and often a reason for knock-back by engineers on modified cars);
The upgrade uses OE standard wheel studs..
All reasonably simple common sense really... I just follow the rules. These rules are far and away more stringent than any 'race car' stuff I have ever seen.
Gayanne, you claim you are not here to knock my brakes... well, you are already on record in this thread as saying (words to the effect of) they would not be suitable for a track car or competition... yet despite my bewilderment, you have failed to provide any technical, legal or any other reason why you reckon they are unsuitable...?
Hey, I don't mind opinion and feedback (yours and others) and am happy to answer any questions about what I am doing, but don't make claims that you can't substantiate.
Who 'tested' your mix of AP/Wilwood components? You? Or some other governing body? I might be wrong, but I wasn't aware there was any CAMS or ANDRA testing/certification procedure in place for competition brakes? (apart from simple pre-race scrutineering?)
Or does the word 'testing' to you simply mean the brakes stop the car at a track...?
As far as I am concerned, 'Testing' in my vented brake upgrade's case means the brakes must not only slow the car down, but must satisfy the intent and requirements of Section 3.3 (Brakes) of the NSW Code of Practice for Light Vehicle Modifications, including on-road testing to meet any performance requirement which is unable to be justified by other methods (such as continued compliance using previously ADR approved components).
There is no opportunity for me to seek 'type approval' for my brake upgrade so each installation is subject to an individual Engineers Certificate, as is any other 'major' (non owner-certifiable) modification to a Beetle such as engine transplant, different seats etc. To allow the possibility of these upgraded brakes being Engineer-approved on other Beetles, it is my intention to test the performance of my brakes to ensure there will be no reason (such as incorrect bias or badly-machined components) for these vented brakes to be 'knocked back' by a Consulting Engineer.
If on-raod testing shows that I have to, I will re-assess and revise the specifications of master cylinder, proportioning valves etc etc to achieve my desired outcome which is, as required by the CoP, consistent brake balance and performance exceeding that of similar unmodified cars (open to interpetation by the individual Engineer, but with V8 brakes, I think I'll be right!!!) and with the fronts locking before the rears.
Gayanne, do your brakes satisfy the intent and requirements of the NSW CoP?
Just for fun 😉I also intend to perform what some car manufacturers call the 'Alpine Descent Test' or 'Abuse test' which is a measure of fade resistance involving full-throttle acceleration and braking from 100km/h to zero several times. Most brand-new cars can do this three or four times before a considerable degradation in braking performance, and an increase in braking distance, occurs. For 'customer satisfaction' reasons, HSV, FPV Porsche etc aim for 10 or more cycles before fade is noticeable... I have 'killed' the brakes on a Porsche Cayenne Turbo on both road (Thredbo to Tom Groggin, NSW Snowy Mountains - steepest road in the country, I think!) and track (Oran Park Nth) so it's safe to say that no braking system is totally hoon-proof!
All my 'Name Brand' PBR and DBA components have been tested and proven to destruction by thier manufacturers and because I am using them in unmodified form, those OE testing and durability/validation procedures remain relevant for my upgrade as far as an Engineer's Certificate is concerned. Try doing that with Woodwillies... lol
Keep in mind, the front brake callipers I am using were designed for a 5.7-litre Chevrolet Corvette before being adopted by Holden for the 1986 VL Turbo and V8 Commodore. Like the rotors that I have used , they are 100 percent legal, ADR-compliant OE fitment in Oz and have been tested for a long and trouble-free design life.
As explained earlier in this thread, after I have played with my vented front upgrade teamed with T3 rear drums, they will be mated to a modified Falcon rear disc assembly... engineered by the same company (PBR) to the same internationally-recognised standards for durability and performance.
Gayanne - or anyone else - unless you can provide ADR-recognised paperwork to the contrary, I will stand behind my assertion that Wilwoods are NOT designed to these high standards. The lack of durable componentry (as evidenced by the express instructions to inspect/rebuild after use) and FOR OFF-ROAD USE ONLY on the box is a hint...
Happy to discuss further.. now it's back to the testing!!
[Edited on 12/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
[Edited on 12/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
VWCOOL ·
jakjones wrote:So what size pistons are in those slider calipers ??
GT ?
Jak
54mm
VWCOOL ·
malcolm wrote:just because the brake components are adr,ed on another vehicle doesn,t mean they will pass brake testing and ie balance between front and back amount of force on brake pedal to stop car without locking up brakes it goe,s on and when a engineer road test the car he will also be testing all of these things and you wont be in the while he,s doing the test .SAFTY IS THE KEY on dry roads and wet.
yep, you are right... but using unmodified ADR-compliant components (ie: wrecking yard parts!) makes it possible for the vented upgraded brake package to be considered for legal registration as part of a Modified Vehicle engineering evaluation. Engineering certification usually includes an on-road evaluation of an upgraded braking system's performance so no matter what the parts are from (Daewoo to Daimler) the Engineer can be satisfied everythig works in a safe and acceptable manner. By choosing components that all 'roughly' match each other (master cylinder, front and rear piston diameters) I am confident my brakes will all 'work' without any problems. I can also add a proportioning valve if testing deems it necessary
As I have mentioned several times in this thread, I am testing these brakes on my own car so that I can be sure my upgrade will a) cause retina damage when you hit the brake pedal and b) satisfy an engineer. All simple procedure, really...
:thumb
[Edited on 12/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
[Edited on 12/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
Doug Sweetman ·
Mate, if (hopefully when) I had the $$ required I would jump at your kit on the front, XF - EB kit on the back and bigger master cylinder. That would stop anything that I would ever want to put in my car.
Will this setup work with an L bug macpherson front ? or is that setup different ?
VWCOOL ·
Doug Sweetman wrote:Mate, if (hopefully when) I had the $$ required I would jump at your kit on the front, XF - EB kit on the back and bigger master cylinder. That would stop anything that I would ever want to put in my car.
Will this setup work with an L bug macpherson front ? or is that setup different ?
If the demand is there, I will look at helping-out 'silly' 😉 Super owners who have too much go! Supers might be able to use the same bracket and stuff... Maybe it might just be a one-off machining operation of the strut with a new bracket using my standard hub and rotor... are the bearings the same? I'm not sure cos I haven't had a look!! I'm still working out things on my own car!!
[Edited on 13/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
[Edited on 13/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
Craig Torrens ·
Looking forward to :puke gay anne's response to that VWCOOL !😉
jakjones ·
VWCOOL wrote:
jakjones wrote:So what size pistons are in those slider calipers ??
GT ?
Jak
54mm
isn't 2 x 40mm pistons in the OE ATE caliper better than 1x 50mm in a slider caliper ??
Correct me if I am wrong please .
Jak
gayanne ·
Vwcool,you also need to read back at some of my quotes and understand some of those points,there are basic technical questions you have not comment on all mybe a bit hard for you to understand.Ill stand by my comment about your brakes and to say your brakes are as good to the leading brands you need to back that up.Vwcool like you said everybody has there opinion end of debate.JVLRacing:P
bugboymatt ·
Are these gona be servo assisted !!! Sorry if mentioned before.
gayanne ·
:kissJVLRacing
malcolm ·
a friend of mine has used the same brake set up that your building ,its been on his car for about 2 years and he is also using ford eb rear calipers with a 9mm solid disk and it was also power assisted.did have balance issues and know going to pedal box set up.vwcool the brake test the engineer will do is 15 stops 0-60-0 to pull .54g,s 2 stops 0-100-0 to pull .78g,s and a maxium brake force of 45kg or 425 nm , with thows test they like power assisted brakes I,m looking at using remote boosters because of the maxium force required on the brake pedal.I can see the different point of veiws its good and the effort your going to. the worry is some people might read what your doing and go out and tyr and build the system without proper understanding.
gayanne ·
Well done Malcolm,I new there would be a balance issue and some testing involved .Did he also upgrade rear brakes to a bigger size all was the powered booster good enought to run the fluid?JVLRacing
Flintstones ·
malcolm wrote:the worry is some people might read what your doing and go out and tyr and build the system without proper understanding.
Malcom, this really isn't rocket science, it's just being able to use a ruler and doing a bit of research. I've built a kit just like this one being discussed some time ago and it's not that hard.
Just like VWCOOL I've used VL Turbo calipers, VW bearings, Ford studs, 300mm rotor etc that have already been ADR'ed so there really is no reason for any engineer not to approve. My hub is a machined down VW rotor (VW Rotor is already ADR'ed) and the caliper adapter is made from billet steel.
The only part the engineer can assess is the caliper adapter as this is the only part that is being made. If an engineer doesn't pass this upgrade I'd suggest looking for a new engineer!!
Pity I won't be using it now as I've gone another direction....
cheers
[Edited on 12-4-2005 by Flintstones]
malcolm ·
he used the rear ford setup from the start.
malcolm ·
flintsones not everydbody is mechanically minded and the engineer will look at the application not just componnents .I spoke to my engineer about this topic and he is also an engineer at PBR brakes.Like I said discussion is and everybody learns.
VWCOOL ·
gayanne wrote:Vwcool,you also need to read back at some of my quotes and understand some of those points,there are basic technical questions you have not comment on all mybe a bit hard for you to understand.Ill stand by my comment about your brakes and to say your brakes are as good to the leading brands you need to back that up.Vwcool like you said everybody has there opinion end of debate.JVLRacing:P
Gayanne, you haven't really added anything to this discussion really... and I'm still wondering why you bothered to stick your head into this thread.
You seem to be good at dishing out 'stick' on product you demonstrably have little knowledge of and yet after several prompts from me in this thread, and responses from you, you haven't yet justified why you think an OE finned alloy calliper, from one of the world's most highly-regarded brake manufacturers and designed for use on a V8 Corvette, isn't suitable for 'track' work:duh.
Every aspect of my brake conversion has been discussed ad nauseum here on this thread. I have listed, and discussed and answered questions about component selection; Design process; Laws pertaining to modified cars; The machining I commissioned. I even found a budget-priced wheel that fits! Testing; Pad compound; Master cylinder; Bias; Code of Practice. I even added pics! Look! Wow!
And because I thought other VW enthusiasts would be interested (it seems I was right!) I'm sharing the testing of the prototype brakes, as it happens, to fellow forum dudes that are interested.
Either justify why you don't like what I am doing (as I have prompted you to - and pleeeze, no more 'leading brand' fetishes like what is fitted to your car... ) or offer us all something - anything! - constructive in the discussion.
[Edited on 12/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
malcolm ·
vwcool have you spoken to anyone that racers with that caliper ie brute utes etc I,m just woundering about caliper flex .
VWCOOL ·
malcolm wrote:the worry is some people might read what your doing and go out and tyr and build the system without proper understanding.
Fair point... But really, the machining involved rrequires a certain amount of brains. There is as much a chance of someone randomly building a system such as this as there is of a bloke with a garden hose thinking he can spraypaint.. :thumb
VWCOOL ·
malcolm wrote:vwcool have you spoken to anyone that racers with that caliper ie brute utes etc I,m just woundering about caliper flex .
No. Racing 'Brute utes' use a Harrop calliper, from memory.
But after having these 'Corvette' or 'VL Turbo' brakes pull up my 1500+kg modified, cammed, headed, yadda yadda V8 Calais for four years, I have very little concern about calliper flex in a Beetle, especially without the extra force of power-assisted brakes. The fins on the design help to stiffen the casting as well as shed heat. They are far stiffer than, say, HQ Holden callipers that although 30 years old, are often used for brake conversions.
Don't forget, these brakes were used in 'showroom stock' racing Commodore SSs in the early 90s and although they were never designed as V8Supercar brakes, they didn't seem to kill anyone famous! I reckon they are so far under their design ceiling with just 800kg of VW it's almost funny!😀
That's one of the reasons why I selected them.
[Edited on 12/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
[Edited on 12/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
VWCOOL ·
jakjones wrote:
VWCOOL wrote:
jakjones wrote:So what size pistons are in those slider calipers ??
GT ?
Jak
54mm
isn't 2 x 40mm pistons in the OE ATE caliper better than 1x 50mm in a slider caliper ??
Correct me if I am wrong please .
Jak
Dunno! Didn't look! Don't care! 😉I was looking at the area of the brake pad :thumb and attempting to maintain a good relationship with the rear piston size of the Ford callipers I will eventually fit when testing is completed with te T3 drums
[Edited on 12/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
malcolm ·
have you heard about anyone having the pads drop out
Flintstones ·
malcolm wrote:flintsones not everydbody is mechanically minded and the engineer will look at the application not just componnents .I spoke to my engineer about this topic and he is also an engineer at PBR brakes.Like I said discussion is and everybody learns.
You are right that the engineer will look at the whole application to make sure it all works and doesn't foul on anything, but at the end of the day is he/she not going give the go ahead because you used a vl caliper? the only part(s) they can only assess is the custom made components as most of the other parts are already ADR'ed.
Cheers
malcolm ·
no
VWCOOL ·
malcolm wrote:have you heard about anyone having the pads drop out
Absolutely impossible with the correct disc - I have matched a 24mm AU Falcon disc with a calliper that requires a 23mm disc (ie: VN-VS V8). But yes, I have heard of pad problems with dodgy conversions that use a big calliper (like a VT or AUII calliper) over standard discs that are too thin (eg: non-vented and the calliper is designed for a vented rotor). It's deadly when the rotor and pads wear a bit and the calliper pistons fall out :jesus
[Edited on 12/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
malcolm ·
I wouldn,t so impossible under racing conditions
VWCOOL ·
malcolm wrote:I wouldn,t so impossible under racing conditions
Racing, street, whatever... doesnlt matter. Like I said, it's impossible with correct design. Absolutely impossible.
malcolm ·
I,m into hi-end audio as well and this is like the argument valves are better than solid state and vice versa in what you use,its good to have commitment in what you do and do it well .all the best.
Che Castro ·
[/quote]
isn't 2 x 40mm pistons in the OE ATE caliper better than 1x 50mm in a slider caliper ??
Correct me if I am wrong please .
Jak [/quote]
Dunno! Didn't look! Don't care! 😉I was looking at the area of the brake pad :thumb and attempting to maintain a good relationship with the rear piston size of the Ford callipers I will eventually fit when testing is completed with te T3 drums
[Edited on 12/4/2005 by VWCOOL] [/quote]
Not trying to be rude, but I would have thought that piston area would be pretty important in acheiving the correct f/r bias as well as pedal effort required. I understand a larger pad would dissipate heat faster and resist fade, but actual clamping force would be a product of the surface area of the MC x piston(s) x leverage of pedal and pedal force, right? So the size of the pad would be irelevant regarding actual braking force. the actual pad is a lot wider than the face of the piston as well as the caliper being of a sliding design (so it moves around) so the pad would probably not be in 100% contact with the disc the whole time anyway right?
Not trying to slag you off or anything - just up for some healthy discussion. Just curious about why you said you chose it on the size of the brake pad. I have the EA/B falcon setup on the rear of my bug and I'd be interested in having something to match up front as well. Nice work so far though 🙂
malcolm ·
che castro whats your front brakes.
Che Castro ·
right now they are the early twin pin type 3 calipers. twin 40mm pistons. Mind you this is on my project car which I am in the process of building not on a running car
malcolm ·
try that combo first don,t forget your rolling mass is in the back and when vwcool gets his sorted out that could be the go or give vforce a ring and don,t forget to look at remote boosters.it doesn,t matter what kit you use its up to you to get it adr passed on the car.
VWCOOL ·
Che Castro wrote:
isn't 2 x 40mm pistons in the OE ATE caliper better than 1x 50mm in a slider caliper ??
Correct me if I am wrong please .
Jak [/quote]
Dunno! Didn't look! Don't care! 😉I was looking at the area of the brake pad :thumb and attempting to maintain a good relationship with the rear piston size of the Ford callipers I will eventually fit when testing is completed with te T3 drums
[Edited on 12/4/2005 by VWCOOL] [/quote]
Not trying to be rude, but I would have thought that piston area would be pretty important in acheiving the correct f/r bias as well as pedal effort required. I understand a larger pad would dissipate heat faster and resist fade, but actual clamping force would be a product of the surface area of the MC x piston(s) x leverage of pedal and pedal force, right? So the size of the pad would be irelevant regarding actual braking force. the actual pad is a lot wider than the face of the piston as well as the caliper being of a sliding design (so it moves around) so the pad would probably not be in 100% contact with the disc the whole time anyway right?
Not trying to slag you off or anything - just up for some healthy discussion. Just curious about why you said you chose it on the size of the brake pad. I have the EA/B falcon setup on the rear of my bug and I'd be interested in having something to match up front as well. Nice work so far though 🙂 [/quote]
No problem - happy to discuss. Keep in mind that brake pad backing plates aren't made of custard - they are stiff enough to transfer the action of the piston across the surface of the rotor... but yes, some OE designs do suffer from pad flex and uneven pad wear when 'pushed too hard'.
But as I memntioned earlier in this thread, there are a lot of factors apart from just the size of brake pad to consider when stuffing around with brakes. Your theory/background on brake pad area, piston size, load distribution etc etc is all correct and if I had to design and manufacture the calliper from 'scratch', I would have had to give those factors a lot more thought. But hey... PBR has already done all that hard work!
All I had to do was choose callipers from the wreckers that will fit the wheels, fit the rotors I have chosen (that match the calliper specs), fit on the Beetle somehow and work effectively with other components in the system that I have either specified myself (Kombi master cylinder) or for reasons of architecture or engineering, can't change (eg: Beetle brake pedal stroke)
The perfect solution to any brake transplant is to use a complete system from another heavier or higher-performance car with similar architecture - discs, callipers, master cylinder plus any prop aids. EG: a T3 Wagon braking system is a great upgrade into a Beetle. Everything bolts on (callipers, drums) and is designed to slow down more mass than a Beetle's. This 'reserve strength' in the T3 parts means a Beetle with T3 brakes can stop quicker, for longer.
Similarly, a VT-VY Commodore brake system (twin-piston callipers designed for 2000kg) is a great upgrade into an old 1980s Commodore (around 1350kg). It's not quite bolt-on like a Type 3 VW upgrade into Beetle, but you get the idea..
I have simply used this really simple engineering philosophy to fit brakes from an 1800kg V8 police car onto a little 800kg Beetel for what I reckon will be stunning brakes.
By staying as close as possible to factory specifications (disc diameter, thickness, master cylinder size etc etc) for my vented brake upgrade, the only 'variables' or 'unknowns' I have to consider are weight distribution (Beetle engine in the rear rather than Falcon's in the front) and therefore brake bias.
Due to design, there is no late-model Falcon front calliper suitable for the VW BJ front end. But by choosing a Holden calliper with similar piston size (and teh bonus of better durability charcteristics - finned body etc) and subsituting a master cylinder with similar size to the OE Ford and Holden setup (all run similar size - around 1-inch) , I have managed to stay close to the specs of a full 'factory engineered' braking system with its inherent durability, bias and performance characteristics.
[Edited on 13/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
VWCOOL ·
malcolm wrote:I,m into hi-end audio as well and this is like the argument valves are better than solid state and vice versa in what you use,its good to have commitment in what you do and do it well .all the best.
lol.. but people don't die if they choose the wrong amp, huh
(There is no real 'argument' or 'committment' here.. I am simply explaining what I have done, the rules I had to follow, and why I did what I have done... but for some reason, some people don't seem to be able to accept it!)
GTMac ·
gayanne wrote:Ok Craig good questions,To get a caliper of the shelf will take some mods. Alternative braking and if not better would be a Porsche 944 setup or other and this is a proven product which is worth $1500 .JVLRacing
Cool, next time Im at Pick'n'Payless at Blacktown I'll grab that 944 setup, Im sure there is one sitting in between the 5022 Commodores and 9213 Falcons!
Honestly, some people need to pull their head in. Im in line for a VWCOOL setup and happy to know I can walk down to Repco for replacement parts. He aint going to flog these off before fully satisfied with testing on his own vehicle. Questions, queries, all good as its thought prevocing and possibly leads to a better well thought out package but some of the critism is just plain rediculous.
In saying that and eating my own words cause I had to get on the thread, "Gayanne" with your intelligent contribution to this thread you honestly should take a hard look at your log on name cause I cant wait to see that road/race package develloped and distrubuted by JVLRacing, cause thats a name that stands in line with PBR, DBA, Ford, Holden..............what testing would these hacks do?
VWCOOL ·
VWCOOL wrote:
Doug Sweetman wrote:Mate, if (hopefully when) I had the $$ required I would jump at your kit on the front, XF - EB kit on the back and bigger master cylinder. That would stop anything that I would ever want to put in my car.
Will this setup work with an L bug macpherson front ? or is that setup different ?
If the demand is there, I will look at helping-out 'silly' 😉 Super owners who have too much go! Supers might be able to use the same bracket and stuff... Maybe it might just be a one-off machining operation of the strut with a new bracket using my standard hub and rotor... are the bearings the same? I'm not sure cos I haven't had a look!! I'm still working out things on my own car!!
[Edited on 13/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
[Edited on 13/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
Type 3 installation will probably be next on the 'to-do' list. My little crystal ball tells me there will be one or two Porsche-killing Subaru WRX powered sleeper Type IIIs cruising the streets of Sydney in the not-too-distant future...😉
Brad ·
Good work VWCOOL, good to see someone putting their design and work out there to be criticised by so many arm chair racers.
Keep up the good work, look forward to seeing the finished product.
VWCOOL ·
:thumb If it wasn't so serious, it'd be funny!
(Criticism is no problem... But it MUST be justified or backed up in some way... and I'm still waiting for some people to justify thier criticism of this PBR equipment)
[Edited on 13/4/2005 by VWCOOL]
Herbie ·
Tall poppy syndrome demonstration in effect
keep up the good work vw cool, I'm sick of wandering through intersections with my brakes held hard, doing EFF ALL.
Andy42 ·
Yeh VWcool if there were more people like you out there trying to solve the shit vw brake issues instead of just bagging those who try to do just that we would be better of.
Oh do not supose you have a set of brack caliper mounts to suit beetle to thing front hey????
[Edited on 14/4/2005 by Andy42]
VWCOOL ·
Andy42 wrote:Yeh VWcool if there were more people like you out there trying to solve the shit vw brake issues instead of just bagging those who try to do just that we would be better of.
Oh do not supose you have a set of brack caliper mounts to suit beetle to thing front hey????
[Edited on 14/4/2005 by Andy42]
You mean some Thing things? :thumb No, I don't. But it should be easy for a machine shop/engineering company to make a set
Andy42 ·
yeh we can get them made i just thought..... you know if you had a set laying around somewhere :P
malcolm ·
vwcool hows the brake testing going
VWCOOL ·
Update!
Due to a bunch of work-related trips etc, I have done nothing on my big brake upgrade in the last couple of weeks! BUT I pick up teh rear discs from the machinist on Wednesday 4/5 and I hope to have them on the rear of my test car this weekend. Thsi will alow me to (at last!) validate my calcs (fingers crossed!) for F/R bias etc... and sort out the handbrake cables!
It will be interesting to see how the rear EA-based discs work with the big AU Falcon fronts - my testing has demonstrated to me and others that have driven the car that upgrading the front brakes without the rears (ie retaining T3 rear drums with standard linings) isn't worth the $$ or effort...
More info soon!
VWCOOL ·
Update again! Just spent a pleasant hour or two fitting the rear discs to my Beetle. I used fully reconditioned Falcon callipers (good fit for Beetles and Type 3s) and like my vented front upgrade, use DBA slotted rotors and Ultimate pads. People that are familiar with what I am doing will know that I retained the Falcon stud pattern. My rear guards are flared a little (1 inch or so by pulling them out!) and I run a fair bit of neg camber up front (which leans the wheels in at the top) so I reckon I'll fit some EF rims, which have less backspace and will 'fill' the guards a little better. The AU Falcon 15x6-inch rims are a perfect fit with standard guards.
I had a quick spin around the block. Naturally, with only 2 or 3km on them, it's really far too early to judge. But all feels good so far... More info soon!
[Edited on 8/5/2005 by VWCOOL]
Doug Sweetman ·
I had a quick read the other day of my vw manual, and it looks to me like the spindle dimensions are identical between super beetle and ball joint front ends. Certainly they use the same bearings and the same brake calipers as the standard BJ front discs, so it would tend to suggest (which is logical) that the whole setup is identical. My 73 has the girling type caliper if that means anything.
Can you run me through why you need to machine the spindle ? I must be missing something.... (U2U me if you dont want to post it) as I though the hub (which I am assuming is complete custom ? ie not a machined down disc or anything like that ?) in conjunction with the caliper bracket would provide the correct positioning of disc to caliper, and you already mentioned the setup used standard vw bearings didnt you ?
Cheers
Oasis ·
I think you're doing a great job VWCOOL. I'm just wondering with ths size of the brakes if they will get hot enough to work to their proper capacity, or will they be so over engineered that it won't be an issue anyway? Well researched too and a good read.
NigeType3 ·
Dude check out the latest Ultra VW they have done an artical on the CSP wide five vented & drilled disk brake conversion.
THey look piss weak compared to yours it uses single piston Vauxhall/ Opel calipers and you need to upgrade your master cylinder as well.
Just thort you'd be interested Nige.
VWCOOL ·
Oasis wrote:I think you're doing a great job VWCOOL. I'm just wondering with ths size of the brakes if they will get hot enough to work to their proper capacity, or will they be so over engineered that it won't be an issue anyway? Well researched too and a good read.
Unike competition, track-only pads, standard 'road' friction material is required to work at 100 percent efficiency from cold (standard late-model cars don't needs thier brakes warmed up) so by using road-style Bendix Ultimate pads that work 100 percent when cold, there is no problem with on-road performance. And if they are big enough to pull up a 1600kg cop car from cold (or hot!) I reckon they will do the job on a Beetle, even when being punished on a track.
Doug Sweetman.. you have made me realise that I should have used the words 'machined front brake mount'... the 'stub axle machining' is not of the 'axle' or bearing area, but of the area where the calliper bolts on. The original two bolt holes are machined off and a purpose-manufactured bracket bolted on to mount the Commodore calliper. As outlined earlier, my big vented brake upgrade uses a brand-new hub machined especially for the task; it accepts std Beetle bearings and a late-model Falcon 'hat style' vented rotor. There is no change (increase or decrease) in the VW track so there are no issues or guessing games with guard/wheel clearance. In other words, if you have 15x6-inch wheels with a particular offset and they don't rub/foul anywhere with your current alignment settings, then nothing changes.
By careful selection of parts, I made sure the hub design has enough 'flexibility' to be configured with Porsche or any other PCD between 114.3 (Falcon/Magna/Subaru) 120 (Commodore/BMW) and 130 (VW/Porsche) or anything in between, in either four or five stud.
The only objective I didn't achieve with my design was compatibility with 15x6-inch widened VW four-stud steel rims. Rim-to-calliper clearance with the internal shape of the VW rim and my chosen Commodore V8 calliper made it impossible... trust me, I tried!!!
For my own car and the prototype hubs, I chose a Ford stud pattern as I wanted to use cheap Falcon wheels (15x6-inch) and experiment with offsets: There is a 25mm difference between 1990s EF-EL and late model AU-BA.
As photos earlier in this thread show, the cheapo AU1 15x6-inch wheels and 205/60/15 tyres are a perfect fit under standard steel front guards. With 25mm less backspace, the EF rims (also cheap!) stick things out further to 'fill' fatter Aero-style guards OR can be used for street/comp cars with greater neg camber to allow more clearance to the front shock tower and swaybar. My BJ car is currently running only about 1/2 to 1 degree negative camber and there is plenty of clearance everywhere, even at full steering lock.
[Edited on 30/5/2005 by VWCOOL]
VWCOOL ·
THIS WEEK'S UPDATE!
Instead of working, I spent another pleasant afternoon mucking around with my big vented four-wheel disc brake upgrade. Today's challenge was to get the handbrake working. With advice from a few others on this forum (Alex, Jak, Dave - thanks!), I decided to investigate using the standard Beetle handbrake cables to save on the cost of getting 'proper' custom Falcon/Beetle jobbies made.
I had to muck around with the cable at both ends (spacers at the lever end, plus extend the cable mounting bracket on the Ford calliper) and 'buzz' out the inside diameter of the 'hook' on the VW cable, plus drill a new hole on the Ford handbrake lever to 'speed up' the operating lever length, add some bolts to attatch the VW cable ends and voila! Now I have a handbrake! There are 12 'clicks' on the VW handbrake lever and with six clicks, my car is immovable!
Yeehah!
I will probably refine the design to cut down on the number of extra parts required and make it more 'DIY friendly' but for now, it all works like the makers intended.
I think I mentioned earlier; previous testing showed me I had too much front bias - the big vented front rotors and Commodore callipers were locking before the EA Falcon rears. After discussing things with a few people, I decided to instal an adjustable bias valve in the front brake circuit. Unconventional... yes, but according to a couple of brake specialists and my rego engineer, it's an acceptable modification as long as the bias is not easily 'fiddled with'.
Unfortunately, my Beetle is now unregistered (bit hard to get rego with no handbrake!!) so I can't go caning up and down the Old Pacific Highway to get the bias spot-on... Yet!
I'll get rego later this week... stay tuned for the next exciting episode!!!
MikeM ·
Good work, good to see someone getting an Aussie Big Brake kit under development.
Are you using a completely custom front hub or are you using an AU falcon front hub with some machining performed to it? I understand you are using falcon rotors but I can't find where you've mentioned which hubs you've used.
Keep up the good work, and thanks for the updates.
Brad ·
Adjustable bias valves are illegal in QLD, I use one to setup then get it bench tested and a fixed one made to suit, maybe you could do the same
VWCOOL ·
Buggy Brad wrote:Adjustable bias valves are illegal in QLD, I use one to setup then get it bench tested and a fixed one made to suit, maybe you could do the same
My engineer in NSW (who does national work) reckons if it is hidden (ie: buried under a fuel tank or somesuch) and/or has its knob removed, all is good... I'd like to get a 'fixed' unit made, but with so may different cars these brakes can go onto, it'd be difficult to decide on the correct one-size-fits-all bias
[Edited on 31/5/2005 by VWCOOL]
VWCOOL ·
MikeM wrote:Good work, good to see someone getting an Aussie Big Brake kit under development.
Are you using a completely custom front hub or are you using an AU falcon front hub with some machining performed to it? I understand you are using falcon rotors but I can't find where you've mentioned which hubs you've used.
Keep up the good work, and thanks for the updates.
A very nice, very high quality, very expensive custom hub unit on VW bearings and stub...
Oasis ·
Thanks for that. Have you tried them in the wet? My brakes are greatly adversely affected when it rains. It virtually doubles the stopping distance (They work incredibly well in the dry). I don't know if it's because of the pads, or temperature??? Have you tested this out yet? I drove past you a little while back on Galston Rd. Your car is absolutely beautiful.
VWCOOL ·
Oasis wrote:Thanks for that. Have you tried them in the wet? My brakes are greatly adversely affected when it rains. It virtually doubles the stopping distance (They work incredibly well in the dry). I don't know if it's because of the pads, or temperature??? Have you tested this out yet? I drove past you a little while back on Galston Rd. Your car is absolutely beautiful.
lol.... you didn't look too close... my poor little Oval looks like a piece of sh*t! Poor little fellah needs some attention, which it'll get when the big brakes are sorted and the big engine put back in.
No, I haven't driven in the rain. But my HSV pulls up a-okay in the wet, so I don't see why a VW with almost the same hardware shouldn't...?
[Edited on 31/5/2005 by VWCOOL]
pete wood ·
The only issue might be tyre grip. There is less weight in a beetle hence less footprint/friction for the same tyre size.
But i'm sure you're already ahead of me there. Smaller tyres on the beetle right? 😉
VWCOOL ·
pete wood wrote:The only issue might be tyre grip. There is less weight in a beetle hence less footprint/friction for the same tyre size.
But i'm sure you're already ahead of me there. Smaller tyres on the beetle right? 😉
Actually, I'm running a 205/60/15 all round which is a little larger than I'd like under the front... but my super-sticky tyres came at a good price and Falken don't do a 195/60 in my chosen (sticky) compound. I used to run a 195/50. Low pressures in the 205s help, but the lack of weight over the front end is a factor in my having to reduce the front brake bias by installing a valve in the front brake circuit. Craig's hillclimb car has its battery mounted up front to keep some weight over the front wheels and I NEVER used to circuit-sprint my car unless I had an almost full tank of fuel...
[Edited on 31/5/2005 by VWCOOL]
VWCOOL ·
Well... what a few days. The Oval 'test' car is once again registered and after a marathon weekend of work, now has been nearly totally rewired, has its 'bent' front upper arms reinstalled (I removed them to check on teh fit of Falcon AU rims with my brakes), new Noltec bushes in the rear suspension, new softer rear dampers (I took out my Bilsteins and replaced them with Cofap gas... for an experiment!) and a whole lot of other little 'tidy ups'.
But it is the brakes that are perplexing me... after initial testing showed the fronts were locking up, I now have the situation where the rears are locking, even with my new bias valve backed right off! It seems to me that I should have given the rears more time to 'bed in' before I started passing judgement on the system's bias...! Possibly, my front/rear bias with the Commodore/Falcon callipers was correct after all! You live and learn!
I have also learnt there are at least three different handbrakes used on Beetles from 1968-on. Sorting out the handbrake for the Falcon EA callipers has been easy, but time consuming. Several others on here (Jakriz, Alex Holzl et al) mentioned that the standard VW handbrake cables were a drop-on fit. Not for me they weren't! However, I have sorted out most of the issues with cable length and mounting. I drilled another hole in the handbrake levers on the callipers to get the best 'swing'. I will be playing with the three handbrake levers to determine which is best...possibly this afternoon.
And then I must swap the bias valve from the front brakes to the rear brake circuit and go out and play some more...
To be continued!
[Edited on 7/6/2005 by VWCOOL]
VWCOOL ·
VWCOOL ·
[Edited on 7/6/2005 by VWCOOL]
VWCOOL ·
Here's a shot of my rear hub showing the centre spigot that locates the wheel - better way of doing things than relying on just the wheel studs. Depending on costs (!!) I would like to get these manufactured so I can supply them to others. This would be far better than the usual welded hubs....
pete wood ·
what are you using for a caliper bracket on the back?
VWCOOL ·
If it wasn't 8 pages long, I'd say read the thread! 😉 I have attempted to explain every detail of my big vented brake conversion. Rear is (almost) standard Falcon, front is a machined bracket that I had made to suit the Commodore calliper and vented AU disc
[Edited on 7/6/2005 by VWCOOL]
pete wood ·
how much for a pair of brackets and 5 stud rear hubs? I'd go to the wreckers for the rest of the stuff.
VWCOOL ·
The machining of the front BJ stub axles and design and manufacture of the prototype front brackets and hubs cost me $2095.50. Callipers are anything from free (I pulled mine from my own V8 Calais when I fitted Group A brakes) to new at $190 ea; Ultimate pads were $150-ish, bearings were 30 bux I think, new wheel studs were $100 and rotors around $130 ea.
The modification/machining of the rear Falcon calliper brackets and re-manufacture and restudding of the hubs etc to allow them to be mounted to the Beetle trailing arms cost around $500 (I can't lay my hands on the tax invoice). Once again, not counting the cost of callipers/brackets ($80 at wreckers) and rotors (new $130 ea).
I will determine retail prices when I have completed all costings and testing.
[Edited on 7/6/2005 by VWCOOL]
pete wood ·
I'm really only interested in the falcon rear brakes. The brakes I have for the front are already bordering on too big. Buggies have no weight in the front, so instant lock up is a real issue.
MikeM ·
Are the rear hubs custom units as well or are they machined down VW units of some sort?
jakjones ·
VWCOOL wrote:This would be far better than the usual welded hubs....
wTF wich part of the hubs is usually welded ?
VWCOOL ·
MikeM wrote:Are the rear hubs custom units as well or are they machined down VW units of some sort?
As with most disc rear conversion I have seen, they are Type 3 VW components that have been welded, machined and restudded. I also added a sleeve/spigot added to the 'nose' as I wish to have the weight of the car supported by the spigot rather than the wheel studs. Although I personally have no issue with welded and restudded hubs, I am aware of rego/engineering certification 'resistance' to hubs modified in this manner. It is my plan/ambition to have new one-piece hubs manufactured when I am confident they will a) work and b) I can sell enough to justify my $ investment in design/tooling costs!
[Edited on 8/6/2005 by VWCOOL]
Edit: The modified hubs mentioned and pictured here, fitted to my own car, are for my own testing/development purposes only - the are NOT intended for sale!!!
nn[ Edited on 4-8-2005 by VWCOOL ]
Che Castro ·
For the rear hubs you can turn down some drums I think.
VWCOOL ·
jakjones wrote:
VWCOOL wrote:This would be far better than the usual welded hubs....
wTF wich part of the hubs is usually welded ?
The 'old' holes for the wheel bolts. Plus, the back of the drive plate to build=up the rear surface so all five new studs (PCD change) sit at the same height... Of course, if you retain the VW stud pattern the welding isnt required. But for Porsche, Holden or Ford, it is
56astro ·
OK VWCOOL,
What's the latest news?
How long before we can buy these suckers?
VWCOOL ·
56astro wrote:OK VWCOOL,
What's the latest news?
How long before we can buy these suckers?
I am still racking up kays on the prototype (my own car) in between doing my 'real' job and doing a couple of engine installations. Last weekend I installed my freshened 1916 engine into my own car (Oval/IRS) and am running-in, in preparation for the Eastern Creek Powercruise this weekend. I HOPE I can get out there and punish these big vented bastards for all they are worth! Fingers crossed...
Good news for nuts Type 3 owners... I am working on making these big vented brakes fit Type 3s, too. GTMac and I did a WRX engine conversion in his Fasty and it needs these brakes as part of his Engineering Certificate for legal rego in NSW.
However, my machinist is a little busy... As of last Friday, he can't tell me when he can have the first Type 3 front stub axles completed. But, that's good news for any T3 owners who wish to have big horsepower and the brakes to match.
As pictured in this thread, my car is currently using 15x6-inch AU Falcon wheels. I made the choice at the time for several reasons: a) to eliminate the need for a stud pattern change with my chosen Falcon-spec discs (saves on machining $) and b) the Falcon 114.5mm PCD allows a choice of offsets for different cars (to suit flared guards etc) thanks to the fact that EA-EL and AU Falcons have different backspaces (approx 95mm and 125mm).
However, in practice, I have found that the AU rim with front 205/60 tyres is not quite the 'perfect' fit that I thought it would be for cars, especially on Beetles with lots of caster and camber, such as my own. Test-mounting EA-EL rims show that although my intentions were good - and I'm not 100% sure yet - they look to widen the track too far, even for 'wide' guards.
For standard guards, the wheels really need to be out another 10mm or so to keep the tyre from fouling the BJ beam shock tower. I do not wish to use spacers so I am considering a change to a Commodore/BMW stud pattern that will give me another 3-5mm clearance. (which you may recall from earlier in the thread, is what I considered in the first place!).
Since I did all my initial measurements, I have discovered that different Commodores have different offsets/backspaces depending on model. I will need to check all this. I did my measurements with 1997-on VT series rims with a 42P offset, but other model rims with a 37P offset rims should be a better fit under std VW guards and get me 9mm more clearance compared to the 46P rims I have now.
This is something that I wish to trial on my own car... but the machinist is busy... so I will have to wait a while longer until he can re-stud my custom hubs. The downside to the Commodore stud pattern is that the rotors will be 'custom' with a Holden PCD and not simply off-the-shelf Falcon items.
I am also investigating having rear hubs manufactured for the Falcon-based rear discs that I wish to supply to match the vented fronts. I am aware there are 'blank' hubs available elsewhere, but there is a considerable wait for supply and I wish, if possible, to use a hub design with the wheel located 'hub centric' using the centre hole of the rim for centricity, rather than being 'stud centric' relying on the wheel studs for location of the wheel.
My own car is running a prototype of this 'spigot' type of hub based on a Type 3 drive flange. My machinist is sourcing a quote from one of his suppliers and I have another shop in Sydney that I need to check with. Doing the hub centre splines is a specialised process not usually undertaken by most machinists.
In the meantime, investigations AND testing continues...
It's a bit frustrating isn't it!
nn[ Edited on 4-8-2005 by VWCOOL ]
56astro ·
VWCOOL wrote:It's a bit frustrating isn't it!
Nowhere near as much for me as it would be for you.
:thumb
VWCOOL ·
Che Castro wrote:For the rear hubs you can turn down some drums I think.
Yes, that is agood way to do it, but you still have the original four holes that must be welded shut if you want a stud pattern change..
Che Castro ·
you can get blanks that have no webbing on the back but are thicker overall than the webbed factory ones.
rose ·
I think they use the same brakes on VN commodore and they never stopped any good. And also I think the front brakes are also used on 1979 Sigma this is not good.
:jesus
VWCOOL ·
rose wrote:I think they use the same brakes on VN commodore and they never stopped any good. And also I think the front brakes are also used on 1979 Sigma this is not good.
:jesus
You think... uh, yes, as you read in the thread, they're VN-VS Commodore (or Corvette) callipers, designed by PBR for a 1500kg car fitted with a 250hp V8. They should be easily capable of stopping a 850kg Beetle with 150hp, wouldn't you agree?
nn[ Edited on 4-8-2005 by VWCOOL ]
VWCOOL ·
pete wood wrote:I'm really only interested in the falcon rear brakes. The brakes I have for the front are already bordering on too big. Buggies have no weight in the front, so instant lock up is a real issue.
If your front brakes are too big, fitting discs to the rear will - technically - not assist you, per se. Think about it this way: Adding bigger brakes to the rear without reducing effort at the front will unload the fronts... resulting in even earlier lock-up...
Let me guess... Buggy... you have larger-diameter tyres on the front than the rear? I reckon you need to adjust the bias by installing a bias valve. Cheaper than rear discs and probably a better result
nn[ Edited on 4-8-2005 by VWCOOL ]
malcolm ·
vwcool if you weld the orignal holes on the hub it is illegal in vic and maybe in other states
VWCOOL ·
malcolm wrote:vwcool if you weld the orignal holes on the hub it is illegal in vic and maybe in other states
Yes, as mentioned in this thread, welded hubs are not accepted for legal rego, even though it is a practice that has been going on for eons. Any welded suspension/steering/etc component is a big no-no. That is why I am attempting to source brand-new blank rear hubs
VWCOOL ·
For all those that have been following this thread, I will have my Oval with these prototype brakes fitted at Sawtell this weekend. Some components are still under development etc, but come and take a look if you want. Ask me nicely, and I'll be happy to take a wheel off for a closer look. Jeez, I might even take you for a drive...!nn[ Edited on 23-8-2005 by VWCOOL ]
PrettyBlueBug ·
I don't even have a racing Beetle and I want these brakes! Poor 'lil Bug loves to lock up. 🙁
pete wood ·
VWCOOL wrote:If your front brakes are too big, fitting discs to the rear will - technically - not assist you, per se. Think about it this way: Adding bigger brakes to the rear without reducing effort at the front will unload the fronts... resulting in even earlier lock-up...
Let me guess... Buggy... you have larger-diameter tyres on the front than the rear? I reckon you need to adjust the bias by installing a bias valve. Cheaper than rear discs and probably a better result
I think you mean larger tyres on the fron than the back. I have already gone to a slightly smaller bore caliper on the front, (same size pad) and it helped. Having said that, I still want rear discs at some stage.
VWCOOL ·
Pretty_Blue_Bug wrote:I don't even have a racing Beetle and I want these brakes! Poor 'lil Bug loves to lock up. 🙁
I assume you mean in normal conditions...? It shouldn't do that. Some of us on here have doen track time/racing successfully with standard Beetle and Type 3 brakes with nothing more than a front pad change. No lockup pulling a Beetle up from 140km/h+ when all is perfect...
seagull ·
VWCOOL
I have the jig to hold the ford backing plate in the lathe > this allows you to hold and machine the center out and thickness >allowing direct bolt up to vw .
I also have two jigs ( hardend quality steel ) for the pcd holes for Australian & over seas cars ( no can do wide 5 ) the hole jigs fit the ford disk or ( type three flange ) allowing you to drill the disk or blank hub to your PCD required .
Let me know if your interested as I no longer are making my kits in the west , seagull
Special Air Service ·
Any updates
VWCOOL ·
Type 3 kit will be finished real soon! I will be installed on a WRX-powered Fastback that I have been involved with.
As for the Beetle versions of these brakes - I have now racked up close to 4000km on the street and couldn't be happier with thier faultless performance
The only thing that disappoints me is the time that it has taken to get this far with the kits' development... but almost there!
[ Edited on 20-12-2005 by VWCOOL ]
DIY-DUB ·
im gettin more interested in your project vwcool, my plans will be needing big brakes, waiting in anticipation for results info on the completed package etc
VWCOOL ·
1stcarbug wrote:im gettin more interested in your project vwcool, my plans will be needing big brakes, waiting in anticipation for results info on the completed package etc
Lemme guess.. you have a Super, right? Means I gotta make another kit to suit...
56astro ·
Just get the std kit done first :P 😂
Any ideas on where I can source Ford wheels to suit the volksie? Or maybe Porsche bolt pattern is a better option.
VWCOOL ·
Another update:
(wow...another four months has disappeared...)
For all those that are interested in the V-Force wheels. I saw Richard and Alex Holzl at the Nats and we determined that my big brakes DO FIT inside the 15x6-inch V-Force wheels which makes fitting these big brakes even easier (and less expensive) as there is no stud pattern change required.
Special Air Service ·
VWCOOL,
How are these suckers travelling, how did you get on with engineering ?
Is everything go or did you have issues that had to be sorted ie. F+R bias adjuster etc ?
Cheers
Brendan
Craig Torrens ·
I have driven this car hard for over 1000kms, the brakes are 👍
VWCOOL ·
I have done close to 5000km on these and I am still shocked at how well they pull up. My doors now pop open with full braking on the flat...
However, for a number of reasons (too much work, basically...) I still haven't:
a) cooked them at a track
b) been successful with having rear 'core' hubs manufactured for legal stud conversions, and
c) determined a RRP for the front brake package
These are three things that I wish to do before I begin supply.
Bias - an aftermarket prop valve is fitted to the front line under the fuel tank on my car (Oval, IRS, 1916, 205/60/15 Falkens all round) so no dramas with premature front or rear lockup (yes, it will be legal as it is not 'driver adjustable').
There is also a second set recently installed in a WRX-transplant Type 3 (GTMac's car). Apart from the fact I personally love omifukkengoawd braking effort, this is the main reason I have put the effort into these V8-spec brakes - to supply legal, ventilated front disc brakes for the increasing number of VWs with engines transplanted from cars (usually Subies) that have vented front brakes from the factory. This is a requirement of most states' Code of Practice: brakes that meet or exceed the OE fitment must be fitted when transplanting engines. ie vented/vented etc.
I am also in the early stages of another rear disc brake design that will be smaller and lighter than the commonly-used Falcon brakes, and hopefully offer better size, appearance and performance compatability with std Beetle front discs as a 'rear only' upgrade. If I go ahead with this kit - only playing at this stage - it will be 4-stud only to keep costs down and be a perfect match for std Beetle/Type 3 front discs. It will offer a worthwhile, budget-priced increase in braking for hottie air-cooled-powered cars used hard on the street and only ocassionally on the track.
Oh, yeah, and I'm also investigating getting the cost - but not quality or effectiveness - of the front brakes down to under the $2K+ I have spent (just on front hardware - not R&D!) so far.
A lot of stuff and I can only devote about an hour a week to it all!
Thanks for the interest - U2U me if you want to know more
[ Edited on 31-5-2006 by VWCOOL ]
VWCOOL ·
Craig Torrens wrote:I have driven this car hard for over 1000kms, the brakes are 👍
lol... if I can keep you happy, you maniac, they must be okay!
[ Edited on 31-5-2006 by VWCOOL ]
VWCOOL ·
Another update!
Development continues... Due to the surprisingly large costs involved in having custom front hubs made, I have decided to base the front big brakes package on standard VW front discs machined down to its hub.
The advantages? I will be able to offer the brake package at approximately $800 less than with the billet front hubs, allowing me to reach my $ target of around $1500, rather than $2300++ which was too much $. I know... I paid that (and more) for the prototypes!
The disadvantages? None, really, except the PCD with the big brakes will be VW four-stud only. There will also be a slight increase in track of around 6mm per side compared to the billet hubs.
The remainder of the hardware remains the same - a tough billet calliper bracket on a machined VW spindle, mounting a Corvette/Commodore V8 finned alloy calliper over a 287/24mm ventilated, slotted disc.
I am waiting for DBA (disc brakes manufacturer) to produce the rotors that I require - they are on 'back order'. Then I will - at long last! - be able to supply the big brake package to people with hi-po Bugs (BJ front end only) and Type 3s. If enough people ask, I will also offer teh big brakes for S and L-Bugs.
As mentioned in an earlier post, I have been playing with a high-performance rear disc conversion, too. Like the front brakes, it uses easily-sourced street-legal Australian PBR brake callipers with an integral handbrake and 260mm diameter DBA rotors. As many of us know, Type 3 hubs are hard to find these days so I have based this new kit around a standard VW Beetle brake drum machined to create a 'hub'. It, too, will be VW four-stud PCD as I really don't like the idea of redrilled etc hubs and my efforts to find a manufacturer of 'blank' splined hubs have been fruitless.
Overall, these components are smaller and lighter (less than 9kg total mass per side) than the Falcon discs for cars whose performance levels (eg naturally aspirated etc) don't require a massive brake.
Being smaller (260x10mm) these brakes fit inside a 14-inch wheel. That will make them appeal to those of us with fast street/weekend hoon VWs as an alternative to finding, reconditioning and installing Type 3 drums.
My prototype kit hasn't been fitted to my own car for testing yet but of course, I will test these rear brakes almost to death and make sure they work properly with both standard 278x10mm VW front discs and master cylinder, and my big 280x24mm vented fronts (that requires a 25mm master cylinder).
As with the front brakes, I have spent plenty of time and $ to get it all to 'production' and final costs are yet to be determined, but I intend to make it a nice, budget-friendly package. I'll keep you posted...
[ Edited on 31-8-2006 by VWCOOL ]
56astro ·
GT
Did I recall correctly that the disc package does not fit within the pace provided by the std VW 4-stud wheel?
If so, and the fronts only come in 4x130 PCD, where does that leave the wheel options? Not many 4x130 wheels out there! (or is there?)
VWCOOL ·
56astro wrote:GT
Did I recall correctly that the disc package does not fit within the pace provided by the std VW 4-stud wheel?
If so, and the fronts only come in 4x130 PCD, where does that leave the wheel options? Not many 4x130 wheels out there! (or is there?)
That's correct, the big vented fronts won't fit within widened steel VW rims. I was very keen to offer different stud patterns to keep everyone happy, but the extra cost of the hubs required (as outlined above - in excess of $800) was enormous and apart from Porsche, the only wheels available that offer an approx 37P offset suitable for a VW BJ front end with a bit of camber is Ford AU (as fitted to my own car). Even then, it's only the 15x6-inch steelies that fit under standard guards - the alloys are too wide. Aftermarket alloys for VWs - such as VForce's rims - will required to use my brakes. Possibly, I can offer Porsche PCD if the demand is there, or manufacture the brakes on a 'we-do-yours' basis (rather than outright or exchange) for people who already have Porsche PCD machined onto thier VW hubs.
But the new rear discs that I have been working on (in the pic) WILL fit under standard OR widened VW steelies in 14 or 15 inch, making them a good physical match for standard front discs (278mm VW F, 260mm R). Due to the design of DBA's rotor casting and to keep costs down, these will be four-stud only.
Will let you know more soon!
[ Edited on 31-8-2006 by VWCOOL ]
brendo_83 ·
Would it be possible to machine down front discs from V-force, as I think they sell blank front discs that can be studded to any pattern?
VWCOOL ·
brendo_83 wrote:Would it be possible to machine down front discs from V-force, as I think they sell blank front discs that can be studded to any pattern?
yes, it's possible in theory, but I have never, ever, ever seen a 'blank' Superbeetle style front disc with a uniform face thickness (ie no ribs) that can be machined to another stud pattern
That's why I originally had custom billet hubs designed and made - to allow Commodore, Ford and Porsche PCD
Then you gotta do the rear...
Lots of work and expense for no real benefit, I reckon!
[ Edited on 6-9-2006 by VWCOOL ]
hellbugged ·
i'm running front discs, porsche pattern WITH uniform thickness on the back.
no they have not been re-drilled. they were made from blanks.
johny rotten ·
Blanks are available,...................... you would think an Expert like Glen would have seen plenty.
Who would buy brakes from a Journalist ?
I wouldn,t..
Euro_67 ·
Check out brake system 1, all the work has been done including a billet hub to fit a machined beetle stub, AP four piston calipers and ventilated and cross drilled rotors.
Does that help at all, I'm really keen on getting some nice performance brakes and running ford rims on my eureka.
VWCOOL ·
dumone wrote:i'm running front discs, porsche pattern WITH uniform thickness on the back.
no they have not been re-drilled. they were made from blanks.
Yep, I know they do exist, but this little dakker has never, ever seen them, let alone been able to find someone that is willing to supply in retail quantities! Sad but true... it would have saved me a lot of $!
The closest I have come is a set of Porsche PCD rotors I own, an undrilled casting that retains the four reinforcing ribs behind the wheel mounting surface, with one stud hole kinda bored into the side of it... yukky!
Dumone, are yours p/n DBA 911s from Disc Brakes Australia? If so, these are "no longer available"...
[ Edited on 7-9-2006 by VWCOOL ]
hellbugged ·
yep thats the part number alright, they were also available as blanks too
VWCOOL ·
johny rotten wrote:Blanks are available,...................... you would think an Expert like Glen would have seen plenty.
Who would buy brakes from a Journalist ?
I wouldn,t..
There are 10 pages of information here, Johnny. A lot of it is juicy information about big vented four-wheel disc brakes for high performance VWs. But some of it - unfortunately - is little more than whimpering from the small kids who sit down the front...
Maybe you could put grab a dictionary - to help with all the big words - and do some reading! :thumb
[ Edited on 7-9-2006 by VWCOOL ]
malcolm ·
vw cool when I spoke with dba about blank rotors they said they will do them at a end of a run but you could wait a month.my engineer worked for pbr he might be able to help.
VWCOOL ·
1964_Notch wrote:Check out brake system 1, all the work has been done including a billet hub to fit a machined beetle stub, AP four piston calipers and ventilated and cross drilled rotors.
Thanks for making the comparison to what appears to be a nicely-made kit: 290x22 mm vented cross-drilled rotor (mine is 287x24mm and slotted only - cross drilling is available if you wish) and a 2.9kg calliper (mine is 3kg, not including pads)
But there are other differences:
My package does NOT require 16-inch Porsche pattern wheels (ie: 15-inch alloy wheels can be retained), mine uses Australian-made, ADR-certified components (allowing easy street-legal engineering certification in all states - something that is impossible with many 'race only' callipers), plus the pads, rebuild kits etc are available at your local Super Cheap or Repco...
And I think you'll be happy to discover that mine will be a lot less $, too, after converting from Euros and shipping your old steering knuckles to Europe! 😂
[ Edited on 7-9-2006 by VWCOOL ]
VWCOOL ·
malcolm wrote:vw cool when I spoke with dba about blank rotors they said they will do them at a end of a run but you could wait a month.my engineer worked for pbr he might be able to help.
Thanks Malcolm, you are right - the 'blank' rotors must be produced within a normal production run, done from month to month - or less - depending on demand. I have 287x24mm vented rotors on back-order for my Beetle/Type 3 vented front brake package, but sadly it seems the solid VW 'blanks' are no longer produced
[ Edited on 7-9-2006 by VWCOOL ]
malcolm ·
the next thing is 2 peice disc & hat up to $1200 a set give Race Brakes a call their in Sydney & Victoria Howard reynalds in vic is excellent .
malcolm ·
I guy I know had new dba rotors with twin piston pbr calipers on a ball joint front end try this who helphim out
http://www.hoppers.com.au/index.html
Hoppers Stoppers Big Brakes disc brakes performance repairs upgrades Australia Custom Car Restorations Corvettes Mustang Ford Holden Plymouth Chev Impala Chevrolet Dodge charger valiant fj lo-riders hot rods car detailing brakes hop-up customising VT big
VWCOOL ·
brendo_83 wrote:Just noticed they do rears as well.
Does that help at all, I'm really keen on getting some nice performance brakes and running ford rims on my eureka.
Yep, I am pretty sure V-Force can supply the EA Falcon-based rear brakes, as can Custom Off Road in Qld. Give them a call
[ Edited on 7-9-2006 by VWCOOL ]
Euro_67 ·
I was hoping to check out your brakes if you picked up the dizzy ?
VWCOOL ·
Ohh shite, forgot about that!
Euro_67 ·
hows the testing on the brake upgrade going ? any final results ?
VWCOOL ·
Been out "thrashing" on the Old Highway today, in fact. After advice/discussion from a few other people who have installed Nissan rear brakes with Commodore fronts on other comp and rally cars, I decided to install the prop valve in the rear circuit, convinced there would be too much rear bias, that would need correction...
Bad idea!
As with the Falcon rear/Commodore fronts under the tail-heavy VW, the fronts continue to lock prematurely. So, next weekend, I will once again install the prop valve in the front brake circuit, to 'pull back' on front line pressure and allow the rear brakes to do a greater share of the work and reduce the tendency for the fronts to lock.
It's all fun and games!
I am also mucking around with the location of the rear calliper bracket to give the best location for handbrake cable etc.
So yeah, development continues...slowly but surely!
The next plan is to try the Nissan rear discs with standard 1500/Super front discs, upgraded with decent pads, of course. I reckon that will be a great "budget" upgrade for fast street Beetles!
[ Edited on 24-9-2006 by VWCOOL ]
Euro_67 ·
good to see its developing
VWCOOL ·
Another update: With one of the engineers involved in all this, I have completed the jig required to re-drill the Nissan calliper mount brackets to suit VW and I have continued testing the Nissan callipers/discs in tandem with the vented fronts.
However, I once again became concerned about an apparent 'dragging' problem with the rear brakes - after driving without touching the brakes (eg along a freeway) and coasting to a stop, the rear brakes were obviously quite warm, a situation I first saw with the previously-installed Falcon-based rear discs last year. With the car jacked up, it's possible to turn the rear wheels by hand but there is some gentle drag. So with some advice from Steve C, VW54 and some others, I went looking for a possible cause of this heat, beginning with the handbrake adjustment, then some sort of residual pressure valve in the master cylinder or a collapsed rubber hose that could cause a pressure build-up.
To cut a long day (story) short, I rebuilt my master cylinder and replaced the four flexible hoses in the rear circuit (one to the trailing arm and one to the calliper, each side) I also had to replace both callipers with rebuilt ones, when a hose snapped off one calliper....
The rear brakes still get warm. I've discussed it some more with a couple of people (particularly Nathan - bat69)and this an operating characteristic of these callipers (Nissan and Ford) with integral handbrake to reduce pad 'knock-off'.
The adjustable proportioning/bias valve is now installed in the front brake circuit to reduce the tendency of the fronts to lock prematurely, and to make the rears work harder. I did some fine-tuning of the valve (it's mounted under the car near the MC) during a particularly harsh full-throttle repeated 100-0 thrash. Unlike my other cars (usually V8 Commodores) over the years fitted with DBA discs and Ultimate pads that worked well from cold, the ones on my VW seem to like a bit of heat in them.
I went as hard as I could 100-0 until my engine oil temp told me to stop after five or six back-to-back runs. With my tyres clean and almost lolly-sticky from the straight-line work, I did a couple of hard 'Old Highway' runs (had to cool the engine off a bit first!) just to make sure everythig was to my liking and there was no tendency to - for instance - lock one front wheel when hooking into a corner.
I am really happy - :thumb the brakes are now superb with nose-dumping ability and good pedal feel and balance; no tendency to lock either end.
I'm happy with all that. So now it's time to test these Nissan rear discs with standard Beetle front discs and twin-pin callipers. You may recall, I reckon the Nissan rear brakes will be a good 'Stage 1' or 'budget' upgrade for fast street cars, with the vented front discs being like a 'Stage 2'. I've kinda done my testing in reverse, with 'Stage 3' (Vented Falcon/Commodore fronts, big solid rear discs) and now 'Stage 2' (vented fronts, smaller solid rear discs) all a-okay so far!
[ Edited on 3-11-2006 by VWCOOL ]
Euro_67 ·
Good to see this is still progressing. Will it be at the shootout for a look see ?
VWCOOL ·
top idea, I'd like to sell some Hoodjax, too but I'll be up at Bathurst for the hillclimb event
Euro_67 ·
Good luck at the hillclimb
Euro_67 ·
Glen,
holmart has some VT Commodore disk brake kits for sale. It might offset the cost of the machined hubs required for the right backspacing and pcd for better wheel choice. They seem cheap for NOS kits.
The latest news is: after four months of no activity, it's been a busy two weeks! We have installed a set of the 'Stage One' 260mm rear discs to two cars: Bat69's Pobjoy-powered 1916cc hill climb race car and my own 'new' L-Bug (stocko 1600cc for now!!) to check the performance of the rear discs with the two respective chassis - Torsion bar and strut - and the two common types of callipers; standard L-Bug with the funny round pads, plus new replacement 'twin-pin' callipers on BJ front beam, plus these twin-pins on the L-Bug front. Phew!
Bat69's car is BJ/IRS and I'll let him add to this thread in his own words. Suffice to say, the brakes worked beautifully in competition two weeks ago with NO requirement for any rear bias (there was a bias valve installed, just in case, but it was fully open). Bat is racing again this weekend (Grafton) and although hillclimb doesn't put much heat into the brakes, it's a great test of feel and bias under heavy-braking conditions.
On my road L-Bug, I was also very happy with the results. Fitted with Bendix Standard pads and teamed with standard L-Bug front brakes of unknown mileage and pad material, the rears tended to lock just before the fronts on my fast-as-1600cc-can-go-downhill Old Highway runs, meaning the rear discs were 'doing thier fair share of the work' with, possibly just a touch of bias intervention required. (It's always better to have too much brake, and be able to bias it back, than too little)
After flogging the poor old thing for several hundred kliks, I installed the twin-pin front callipers that are, these days, fitted as replacement to many Beetles. On disassembly, I noticed the 'old' L-Bug front callipers, pads and discs were in very poor condition: for instance, the inner front pad on both discs was covering little more than half of the disc surface and the outer pads had 'cocked' in thier slides. It was obvious the front brakes weren't working to full potential. Maybe this was altering the front/rear bias and causing the rears to lock a little earlier than ideal...
So, this week, I installed fresh front discs, new twin-pin callipers and performance pads (same as what is often installed on L-Bugs) but have not driven the car yet (it is raining like hell in Sydney)
All indications from this car, plus Nathan's on-track testing, are that the 260mm rear disc brake package is a perfect, easy, bolt-on fit to any Beetle with no other modifications required to front brakes, master cylinder or handbrake.
I am happy-as! :thumb
As for the front vented disc brakes: I have added another thousand or so kilometres to my Oval's odometer using fresh slotted discs with new Ferodo pads. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I reckon the Ferodos are a very good-value ($40) performance brake pad but I needed to test them and make absolutely sure....
The only test I am yet to complete is the "try-kill-'em" ten-in-a-row 100-0km/h fade test but with discs and callipers designed for a V8 weighing double what the VW does, I have little doubt the brakes will pass this "abuse" test with flying colours.
I am, of course, also working on the final $ figure.
At this stage, the 260mm rear kit looks like it will be:
*brand new hubs
*brand new 260x10mm discs
*eight brand new studs and nuts
*bearing housing spacers
*all machining and mods completed, ready to bolt-on
*second-hand callipers
Second-hand? yes. These callipers are no longer available new, but rebuild kits are readily available. To manufacture, I need to source the calliper brackets to machine and it's simply less hassle - for myself and customers - to supply them 'no-exchange', with the second-hand callipers bolted to them, than exchange.
The vented fronts:
*brand new hubs
*new bearings and seals
*new billet calliper brackets
*new 287x24mm vented, slotted DBA disc with VW stud pattern
*new studs and nuts
*modified stub axles (exchange stubs)
...Everything ready for the customer to install new or second-hand PBR-manufacture VL-VS V8 Commdoore front callipers and thier choice of pads
So, that's the latest!
[ Edited on 9-6-2007 by VWCOOL ]
VWCOOL ·
Euro_67 wrote:Glen,
holmart has some VT Commodore disk brake kits for sale. It might offset the cost of the machined hubs required for the right backspacing and pcd for better wheel choice. They seem cheap for NOS kits.
yeah those red ones work great on a Commodore! Thanks for the links; I looked at VT callipers (fronts and rears - I have a spare set in my garage) and those hubs several years ago as a potential for the VW stub, but even though the fit inside a Commodore 15-inch wheel, they are too large for a VW rim. Plus, they are heavy...
[ Edited on 10-6-2007 by VWCOOL ]
bugzla ·
:bounce looks fantastic was looking at a swap with mazda discs and calipers from a place in canada but was a bit scared to out lay money to something thatwont comply with qld rego
VWCOOL ·
bugzla wrote::bounce looks fantastic was looking at a swap with mazda discs and calipers from a place in canada but was a bit scared to out lay money to something thatwont comply with qld rego
No worries with rego; one of the primary requirements of all these brakes is to be engineer-approvable (is that a word?!)
*The discs and callipers are sourced from Australian-market cars so are 'validated' for the safety, durability and performance aspects of ADRs
*Modified components are machined to exacting standards
*New-components (brackets and studs etc) exceed OE requirements: eg: wheel studs are high tensile
*As mentioned in this thread, I have tested for thousands of kilometres to ensure it all works to a standard that will satisfy any Recognised Engineering Signatory
[ Edited on 10-6-2007 by VWCOOL ]
bat69 ·
Having completed two (2) full motor sport events (including practice days) using these rear disk brakes and, Im more then happy with their performance. They are an excellent upgrade from the standard T1 drum I was previously running. I will be doing more testing with the race car / rear disks on the track through out the year, so Ill keep you posted.
bat69 ·
UPDATE RE DISK BRAKE REAR END:
I have now completed a number of motorsport events with this disk brake conversion as well as driven a number of klms on the road in normal every day driving, both in the wet and dry. The performance of this disk brake conversation has been better then what I expected.
I run T3 front disks/calipers and VWCOOLS rear disk brake conversation. I initally fitted a bias valve in anticipation the rear brakes may have been a little strong. This was not the case. The rear disk require no bias at all and the front / back ratio is excellent. Having driven some very hard klms in testing on the track, the rear brakes continue to pull up stop after stop. Even in the wet the front back braking ration remaind th same. Having driven this combo in traffic, the hand brake performs well as well. I have also pulled a few hand brake turns during competition (although I dont recommend it) the hand brake still performed well. So after some hard testing I would recommend these rear disk brake combos.
Happy motoring.......
1SlowBeetle ·
I have been looking for this kind of thing and was wondering if the kits now have a price and are available. Sounds like bat69 is a pretty happy. I'll be in Sydney soon so I would be keen to check these out as an option.
Cheers...
Craig Torrens ·
Kits are in production as we speak................front and rear.
kroozzn63 ·
hmm ,Glenn all you need some magnesium wheels i know a bloke whos got some cheap ...
GTMac ·
Ohh shite, this ugly thread again........lol
Well for those keen eye people you will see my front brake kit is Glenns PBR unit and the rear is his Ford jobby. Have I tested them, well 7000 miles with a 182kw atw Type 3 Fastback, hell yeah, they have been tested and have never given up.
All the bickering (glad to see with some forum name changes some people have kissed and made up). All I can say is Glenn doesnt do things half hearted and has done much R&D and forked out much more of his own $$$ than most would in doing so. He could have bought some pretty name brand brake packages for his Beetle and made many people go oooooooooh ahhhhhhhhh but they would not have been his own.
They have helped me out of some sticky situations. One happy customer 😘😂
JVLRacing ·
Well i have been one of those critics! i bite my tougue and have to say well done Glenn.If people are happy! that proves they are becoming a proven item.....
JVL😎
VWCOOL ·
Hey tbanks for the thumbs-up Macca, I reckon you have done more miles than me now with these brakes
I am a little embarassed at the time this project has taken, but I am having 10 sets of these big front brakes made right now (jan 2008) to suit BJ Beetle.
That production run will allow me to announce final cost, too, which seems on-target for under $1500 with all new parts:
Stubs will be exchange and there will be an 'option' of second-hand or rebuilt callipers for the real right-arses!
Craig Torrens ·
VWCOOL wrote:I am a little embarassed at the time this project has taken, but I am having 10 sets of these big front brakes made right now (jan 2008) to suit BJ Beetle.
No Probs..........take your time............its only been about 4 years now😂😂
Mick058 ·
i saw some of these callipers the other day, huge.
Now VWCOOL, i read most of the post, but there is alot there!
I have a set of fuchs 16x6 up front, do these system work for that wheel choice?? Can i run type 3 drums with these kits up front and how much does the master cyclinder upgrade cost?
I'm looking at engineering my ride soon, so may aswell do breaks now.
Also, your in Syd right? Any sneak peaks?
BiX ·
Also will the bj front fit on a super?
VWCOOL ·
Mick058 wrote:i saw some of these callipers the other day, huge.
Now VWCOOL, i read most of the post, but there is alot there!
I have a set of fuchs 16x6 up front, do these system work for that wheel choice?? Can i run type 3 drums with these kits up front and how much does the master cyclinder upgrade cost?
I'm looking at engineering my ride soon, so may aswell do breaks now.
Also, your in Syd right? Any sneak peaks?
Hi, yes I will initially be offering the CNC-machined hubs 'off the shelf' in VW 4x130 and Porsche 5x130 stud patterns so the 16x6-inch Fuchs will be compatible!
Jap 4&5/100 and Ford/Holden will also be available by special order.
All my vented front brake testing has been with rear discs (two types: 260mm and 280mm as mentioned in this thread) as it was my intention (and recommendation) that these big front brakes be fitted as a 'stage 2' upgrade AFTER rear discs have been fitted. However, testing with Type 3 drums may be a good idea just so we all know if it works! The MC upgrade will be less than $200
You are welcome to take a look; my development car is now in Newcastle area. There are pics of the brake hardware earlier in this thread or I can email.
Depending on other commitments, I hope to have the car/brakes on show (and on the track!) at Bug-In and Nationals at Easter
Bix, I will be offering these brakes to fit 2-bolt struts (L-bug cars with the 'better' neg-scrub front end geometry for handling) and as with the BJ stubs, they will be offered exchange. 3-bolt cars will be offered later, depending on demand
Mick058 ·
Sounds good. Keep me posted. I will probably engineer around May/June but not sure if i'll have the dosh to go front and back. What kind of MC do you use? Easy to fit?
VWCOOL ·
For sale: ventilated high performance front disc brake kits for Beetles!
From $1250
This ventilated high performance brake kit features a massive 287x24mm ventilated disc rotor and brake pads with more than double the surface area of the standard VW equipment. It provides 'Supercar' bite and fade resistance for high-performance VW Beetles and VW-based vehicles without supercar expense.
ROTORS:
The rotors are top quality from Disc Brakes Australia (DBA). It features a unique ‘Kangaroo Paw’ internal pillar design that increases the rotors’ heat-shedding ability and reduces disc thickness variation (DTV) when hot compared to conventional straight- or angle-vaned rotors.
CALIPERS:
The calliper is a PBR alloy single-piston unit. It was designed for the GM (USA) Corvette V8 and Holden (Australia) Commodore V8. Unlike many aftermarket calipers, this design features the rubber seals required for long-term on-road durability and hassle-free street certification/registration. Installed unmodified (no machining) maintains the integrity of PBR's original design and the validity of its OE durability testing.
HUBS:
The hubs are CNC-machined from steel (not cast iron) and designed with appropriate back-side radii and face thickness to exceed OE specs. It is NOT a machined-down VW disc with ribs on the back.
OTHER HARDWARE:
The calliper brackets are a one-piece unit CNC machined from steel. The design is 'ambidextrous' (left and right are the same) making installation foolproof.
OTHER INTERESTING STUFF
Using components designed for large V8 sedans weighing in excess of 1500kg means these brakes are ‘doing it easy’ in VWs of half the weight, even in extreme performance situations. Special ‘high performance’ pads are not required as the pad area and heat-shedding ability of these calipers and rotors over standard Beetle discs means all materials remain way below their operational ceiling. They are not stressed beyond what thier manufacturers intended.
The hub and calliper brackets are electro-plated to prevent corrosion. The spindles (provided on exchange basis) are inspected for damage and wear before being CNC machined to accept the calliper bracket and although degreased prior to machining, are provided ‘as supplied’.
These brakes fit inside most 15-inch and larger wheels (eg Porsche Cookies and Fuchs, V-Force, Empis, Performance) but NOT widened VW steel rims.
This kit requires a master cylinder upgrade and an adjustable bias valve in the front brake circuit to prevent premature front-brake lockup. I can provide both for an extra $200.
This kit was developed for and is intended as a ‘stage 2’ upgrade for Beetles with rear discs already installed and all testing (in excess of 6000km) was performed using VW Beetles with rear discs installed. However, the many different rear discs fitted to Beetles means some cars will require extra attention to front/rear brake bias on installation.
As well as high-performance air-cooleds, these brakes are the perfect upgrade for Subaru or rotary engined VWs where 'equivalent to donor car’ vented front/four-wheel disc brake system is mandatory for engineering/mod plates and legal street registration.
AVAILABILITY/OPTIONS
The kit is available ‘off the shelf’ in 4x130 (VW) and 5x130 (Porsche) stud patterns for Ball Joint (both early/small tie rod taper size and late with the large tie rod taper) and L-Bug (2-bolt).
Any stud pattern is possible on the CNC machined hub by special order: for example, Ford/Honda/Nissan GTR (5x114); Holden/Opel/BMW (5x120); ‘Japanese’ 4x100/5x100.
The base kit includes two hubs (studded - standard VW/Porsche thread); two modified spindles (exchange); two caliper brackets; two wheel bearings/seals kits; DBA 'Kangaroo Paw' slotted (left and right) discs and all non-VW bolts and washers required. It does not include the callipers, allowing you to choose either new, second hand or rebuilt calipers.
I can provide brand-new PBR calipers and Ferodo ‘street performance’ pads for an extra $300.
Installing the kit is simple R&R. VW rubber brake lines are compatible with the PBR caliper. You must retain your dust caps, bearing washers and stub axle retaining nuts.
Add $100 for Porsche stud pattern.
‘Custom’ stud pattern $POA as stud prices/availability varies.
Pick up/delivery Newcastle and Sydney or I can ship anywhere on the planet.
reub ·
Congrats👍
andrewmurphy ·
THEY HAVE ARRIVED!!!!!!!!
They look AWESOME. i am dying to get my hands dirty. I will be installing them over christmas. i should be receiving the gear box that Dave Butler has built for me.
I just have to figure out how to put them together.
Glen, I think that you have to to start a thread to summarise the final product range. I am sure that the moderators would allow for the thread to be a sticky.
Again a HUGE thanks to both Glenn Torrens and Dave Butler for their patience with me and also for doing the VW community a massive service.
VWCOOL ·
Good stuff Andrew... I should have shipped over some red caliper paint too!
3 years on and mine going strong, yes I was one of the testing guinea pigs and lived to tell the story 😘
STIDUB ·
any idea whats better between these & 944T brakes? stopping wise, ease of install etc ive been curious for awhile, oh glenn, ill be down there in early jan, mite give you a call if i have a free day 👍
pete wood ·
I can't tell you details, think about it this way. you'd be buying holden pads instead of Porsche pads. which do you think will be cheaper in the long run. 😉
VWCOOL ·
Thanks Pete, and you are correct...😎
STIDUB, I'll be out of town most of Jan... PM me for dates and details and we'll work something out