VW judging question?

If someone adds a ragtop section to there vw(no matter how well it is put in) why are they not judged under the modified section and not the original/restoration section. Do not give me the ragtop is an option argument as it is not. It is a factory build number with a different "m" code. it is easy to police as they are built with a sr series number. it is a major modification and should be classifed as such. It devalues the "real "sunroof factory cars and creates an unfair advantage to a restored vehicle when compared to an original non sunroof model...........time to ponder:duh

....hmmmmm....I think you are talking about Bel here hey...I hope you're not infering that I'm cheating the system....I don't hide the fact that it was not originally in her....I enter her under her year

Her pop-outs windows are not original either...

No it doesn't create an unfair advantage....a nice dub is a nice dub....sunroof or not.....I just loved the idea of having a nice Goldie sun roof...was lucky enough to find one and have it expertly put in....

I don't make the rules....and there is always debate in these areas....I can enter her under modified if you want me too???

I've been to some shows where the club committee are judges and followed them around listening to comments - less than impressed I can tell you and thus stopped entering the show and shine coz of it.

Gold Coast Club is about the best categorised I've seen - they go by categorised year so everyone who walks/drives in can vote on the car they like the best

Some I won't attend anymore because the committee tell you what category you are in :jesus where other clubs class you differently :duh no wonder everyone get's confused.

I think all results should be put on notice at shows too.... I've known of some cars getting a HEAPS lower point score and comming first in thier catagory when there where other cars that where obviously far superior and got a higher point score.

The only award that matters is People's Choice.

unless the judges publish a list of criteria, judging is a subjective thing. Its up to the persons tastes and likes etc. Iam not a big fan of resto's (i can see there point, but would prefer a nice modified car). others don't like the idea of a modified car and therefore this means IF i was to judge a car, i would probably mark a modified car higher.

Most clubs try and do the best they can for judging, and i like teh goldcoast way, as that way the public majority should work. but even with a list of criteria, how do you judge it, is a car with a perfect paint job but a 50c peice of rust better than a car with no rust and slight orange peel..... etc etc etc

We are not playing for sheep stations? its a chance for every one to get together, talk and look at each others cars.

HRM... I agree in a way... but if the show has alot of non VW people crusing thru they tend to like the shiniest thing there and that's not always the best.

As HotRodMatt said, the day I won people's choice was the day I stopped entering car shows...the only award worth winning, devoid of politics and all the associated bull@hit!

....I enter just because I'm there...Bel always gets entered even before her resto....it's about joining the rest of your fellow dubbers....talking about your ride if they ask....meeting up and sharing a common interest

My biggest buzz at Easter was on the road....the journey there and home but it was so cool winning the trophies we did....while with me Bel will not go on club rego...she is to be driven and enjoyed.....and I do

I restored her to save her....and I did things such as the rag top for my enjoyment when I drive her....so nice to have that roof open:kiss

There are some very nice rides being restored at the moment...so next year it's someone elses turn for sure....

From being on a club committee this year I know they are always asking questions about how to improve judging ...or adding a new category.....not sure how these issues will ever be fully resolved...there will always be some one not happy with the results

I hope it's not refering to Bel, Jen. That your rag is a golde therefore means to me that all you've don't is added a piece of original equipment to your car....it is not after market. Therefore your car remains unmodified.

Where's Birch to answer this one?

....I don't know.....the description made me think it was about Bel...or at least using her as an example.....I've not had anyone, at the 3 shows she's been in, question the category I enter her under...

BUT this is what the forum is about...being able to debate things....someone has expressed an opinion....

What about two pack paint, radial tyres, laminated windscreens, silicon brake fluid, synthetic oils.

The only shows I enter in as judged (if there is a choice) is the ones where it is peer judging.

I was not specifying any single vehicle I was opening a debate on what classes VW's should be judged under and where the line should be drawn.
I had the pleasure of seeing Bel at the Nationals and a lot of other beautiful VW's and I think that the judges should be comparing apples to apples and making sure the categories achieve this.
Adding a sunroof is not the same as adding a set of pop-outs, it is a cut and shut job no different to a chop top or a sardine job as far as i am concerned. It is changing a base model to a more exclusive model.
VW have a very specific accessories brochure that covers any add ons and the sunroof is a specific model not an option.
Judging is always going to be difficult and yes politics will always be added to the mix. Peoples choice is the Holy Grail for most enthusists I am sure.

Colour change is not going to match up with the production plate either

....how pure can we make each category....it's a mine field...

Pop-outs should be on the VIN number if they came in the car??...I'd have to consult my books on that and don't have the time right now...

[Edited on 28-4-2005 by jenz58]

hey way cool...if its ppls choice...i'm sure edith has a chance then...

i just gotta bribe like ...how many ppl???...how much do they want???

😀

but my car didnt even cost me that much...:jesus

back to the drawing board...rigging the votes again......anyoen know how i do that and NOT get caught??? :duh

lol

only kidding ppls.... im only going to meet u all...

I don't really see adding a Golde ragtop as exactly the same as a sardine roof. Completely different league. The only way you could pick them apart is if you stripped the roof back to bare metal or if you pulled apart the headliner (if there was no effort made to hide it on the underside)

I think it's getting a little anal, like helbus said. They didnt have 2 pack paint, radial tyres, CD players, TMI repro interiors etc from the factory either. At least the Golde roof was a factory option. You could start getting really anal and picking out brazilian/mexican bits, spade terminals instead of screw terminals. It just gets stupid.

Adding a golde roof does not make any decrease in value IMO. As it had to be taken from another car which had it originally fitted (and you would have to be able to tell it was added as well). There is no increase in golde ragtops as there are no reproductions.

eirecooled wrote:If someone adds a ragtop section to there vw(no matter how well it is put in) why are they not judged under the modified section and not the original/restoration section. Do not give me the ragtop is an option argument as it is not. It is a factory build number with a different "m" code. it is easy to police as they are built with a sr series number. it is a major modification and should be classifed as such. It devalues the "real "sunroof factory cars and creates an unfair advantage to a restored vehicle when compared to an original non sunroof model...........time to ponder:duh

It does't get any more anal than that, What a dumb thing to say, you are the reason people stay away from cars shows with nice cars, wake up!

ah...... the anal retentive response. I was waiting for this. I was at the nationals and there was a lot of cars in the car park that would have given a few of the show cars a run for there money. why did they not enter? maybe just, maybe they did not feel the the playing field was level! how many trophies are in your cupboard Mr Becker?
I was only asking a question not attacking anyone. get off your high and mighty position.

eirecooled wrote:ah...... the anal retentive response. I was waiting for this. I was at the nationals and there was a lot of cars in the car park that would have given a few of the show cars a run for there money. why did they not enter? maybe just, maybe they did not feel the the playing field was level! how many trophies are in your cupboard Mr Becker?
I was only asking a question not attacking anyone. get off your high and mighty position.

I have a few Racing trophys, I don't enter cars shows usually, I am happy to display cars, None of my cars are show quality cars anyhow, I just feel that competitive judging brings out the worst in people, and would rather not be involved, there is always someone not happy with the results.

Your comment about putting in a factory sunroof is a modification and should be judged in modified section just rubbed the wrong way, where would you stop? radial tyres, 10 points off!!, 12volt conversion another 10, oh, I don't think that key ring is original!!, seat belts?,white wall tyres?, floor mats?, it's all too hard.

Peoples choice is best.

Hi

I’ve judged at many VW shows and I think that in the main judges try to get it right. Unless you’ve judged at a car show you can’t begin to know how hard it is to get it right, the only way that you could get it absolutely 100% correct would be to line-up every car according to category entered and do a comparison of every cars good and bad points and continually cross reference the results. I don’t believe that any entrants would want to wait a few days for results from all categories to be finalised or want to pay $100s for the judging process.

In the end its someone’s opinion on the day, if you don’t like it run your own car show or buy your own trophy and award it to your self.

I agree about people choice award as long as know one can slew the results by hassling people to vote for a particular car.

And I thought dog shows were bitchy.



eirecooled, wherer would you find this M code on the car?

Steve

lost wrote:from my experience it is a dark science this car judging. The most important qualification seems to be that one has to be a member of the club hosting the event. They seem to make up their own rules as they go along and "conflict of interest" is a foreign concept to them.

I must say that at the VWDCQ Action day, my bus won
best original restored kombi and
Presidents Choice
Although I am not a member of that club.
Great day by the way

Roy

.....you're just a plain whinger....you would gripe no matter the result by the sounds of it.....an anal retentive...opinionated person who makes excuses for not entering their own car and complains

Yes there are many nice rides out in the car parks at these shows...maybe they just love their rides and not interested in club participation or entering shows....not because they hate the politics of clubs or clubs...maybe just that they have other more important interests.....people do sometimes make these sorts of choices....

Also some leave their rides in the carpark...one because they are a nice ride and two they can pick up a trophy for' best in carpark'...

Honestly we could to and fro all night couldn't we :duh

TYP-114 wrote:Oh....one other point.....A judge should not have their car entered in the show.....how can that car be judged fairly???? At some shows, the judge will not judge his own car, but rather ask another judge to judge his car. His car is then judged on a different scale than all the other cars were judged by....

I WILL BE THE JUDGE AT THE ' BLAST FROM THE PAST' SHOW TO BE HELD THIS SUNDAY 1ST MAY AT BERRY . IT WOULDN'T BE RIGHT FOR ME TO JUDGE MY OWN CABRIO AS I AM THE ONLY ONE WHO KNOWS HOW MUCH EFFORT HAS BEEN PUT INTO ITS REBUILD . 'MANGO DREAM' WILL BE ON DISPLAY AND ONLY BE JUDGED BY THE PUBLIC IN PEOPLES CHOICE .
HOPE TO SEE YOU ALL THERE !!

eirecooled


I dont think you can comment of this subject ( or anyone ) untill you have either organise, run a car show or actually been a Judge.

You welcome to Judge at next years VW Nationals Just let me know.


I enter my car in the show VW Nats and others ..... and have nuthing to do with the judging ... apart from counting the Peoples choice vote and trying to organise the actual people doin the job.


Oh and my 56 Oval and 65 Sea Blue are FACTORY origional sunroofs...

4 got to say

This subject could be talked about till your Old n weary.... and as Steve said its

the Judges opionion on the day

By the way..what is it with people bringing the same car year after year...the result's become so boring and predictable, give the newbies a chance!

SPRINTSTAR wrote:By the way..what is it with people bringing the same car year after year...the result's become so boring and predictable, give the newbies a chance!

probably because most people drive the cars that they take to the shows..... do you think people should change their car each year? or modify it each year?

ohoh...can i have a different one each year???

pls pls pls pls...

There were a good few new ones this year 🙂

First up I enter show and shines because it supports the club running the show and we get to gasbag with people we don't get to see all that often.

Plus I think that most shows we have been to lately eg: Klub VW fest-- Dubs by the Pub--Gold coast Vee Dub show ; are peoples choice so I don't think it matters what class you are in people will vote for what they like.

one more thing you get to park closer to where you are sitting but I am lazy :-)

Of course these are my thoughts and they only mean something to me.

:thumb

Marc

[Edited on 29-4-05 by Midlife crisis]

I was not knocking the show organisers or the judges. The point I was trying to convey was that there has been quite a few sunroof clips (not accessory) added to cars that are high grade restorations but no consideration is given to the unfair (I think) presentation that this gives a person over a standard VW no matter how good the resto. I would not like to see the day that 2 high quaility sunroof VW were judged and the psuedo bug won. Originality must score some points.
I think it is a good idea to encourage newbies and get them out of the car park. show organises might like to consider "newbie" or encouragement awards for them and some general awards like "car I would most like to drive home in" "too cool for fools" "how did this get in here" & entrants choice. please do not crucify me, it makes it hard to eat M&M's :P

perhaps we could also have an award for
"car i think will most likely be towed home"

....that way, mine can win at least one....:P

SPRINTSTAR wrote:By the way..what is it with people bringing the same car year after year...the result's become so boring and predictable, give the newbies a chance!

The answer to this to bulid a better car than the one that wins each year, if we used your idea the standard wouldnt keep lifting each year. I said this to a club member a few years ago, this year they won their class.

The car park cars, this is a problem we have tried to address, we have even had club members standing in the carpark grabbing the drivers of good cars trying to convince them to enter, most dont want to tie up the whole day or feel that the car is not clean enough etc.

Steve

[Edited on 29-4-2005 by 1303Steve]

To all those who park in the carpark instead of entering their cars in the show. At Klub Fest this year ALL cars are welcome to come on in and park with the other Beetles, Kombi's etc, even if you do not wish to enter the Show and Shine.
We would much prefer to have as many cars as possible at the show for everyone to admire, than to have people who have great cars parked out in the car park. We also found last year that lots of 'non VW Club' people parked their cars out on the road as they didn't know what to expect.

Come on in and have some fun - it is Peoples Choice voting.

Kathy

I help run a Chapter of Klub VW in Brisbane and Bayside (Redland Shire).

Until last year 2004 I had not been involved with running or organising an event such as a show. I have helped with small cruises and runs.

I would have to say that now that I have experienced my first show (2004) and this years (2005) Klub Fest a lot of time and effort goes into these events behind the scenes. We have a great group of people that help and we try and make things are equal and fair as possible due to the variety of people that attend these types of shows. When you line up to go through the gates we give you the list of what sections are up for grabs so that you can select which one YOU WANT TO GO INTO. When you get to the gate to pay you have had some time to select which section that is best suited for your VW.


Last year and this year we had 17 Categories up for grabs as well as Club Choice making 18 Trophies. We have even split the watercooled section. Sedan's are seperate from the Van/People mover as if you have both in one section... 9 times out of 10 a Sedan / Hatch / Wagon will win over a van / people mover.

Our show is PUBLIC Choice. Sure some people will vote for whats shiny and lots of bling bling and you also get some people that vote for the plain and original VW.

Just on another note, we have done the final count and we had 212 VW's in the park. Sure was a nice sight standing up at the front gates and looking down.

I can honestly say it was the biggest SWAP / TRADE Sites section I have ever seen at a VW Show. We had 28 Sites Registered.

As KLUB FEST was advertised in the Brisbane / Bayside papers as well as in the Motoring Section of the Courier Mail 14/05/05 I have had phone calls from other clubs offering to do a joint cruise / run and sometimes this subject comes and I have found no matter what type of vehicle that you are into or what type of craft or aeroplaine models or even the little remote controlled cars and boats.... you will always have a question about what section you fall into and always people will be quick to say something either good or bad.


The main thing is you get to catch up with friend and people that you can exchange ideas with and just to get out of the house.


Moniek

Thanks everyone for coming along.

What happens when dudes start putting these Creative corner window and roof pressings into 50`s-60`s kombis, do we start calling them 23`s or converted kombi`s..in my book the bus will be more valuble (for future) kept as an original kombi rather than chopped to a 23..still if I had an Oval hardtop with a spare Golde section..i would be very tempeted.....keep the busses original..

I have an original Raleigh chopper...alll these repros and NEW! choppers do is cheapen the original.takes the eliment of uniqueness out of the thing.
kieran