Sorry to say, but.. · Aussieveedubbers

BenettonVW · 29 Apr 2005, 4:16 pm

If the forum continues with its negative attitude and bitching and fighting constantly, then we are going to lose members, which may even include me. I've had enough.

There has always been fighting and little tiffs, but not what it is like these days with big fights, lawsuits, and all sorts of bitching about prices of things and so on..

People don't want to come here anymore folks. Thats what it has come to. Been coming for a while, granted, but now more than ever, there is more active members here due to mandatory sign ups than ever before, and we are putting on a big shitfight show for the whole world to see.. not good enough.

I'm sick of warning people. I am sick of banning people and the headaches that go with it all.

I didn't make this thing so people could fight on it. It's now becoming more descructive than constructive to the VW scene in Australia, and if it doesn't change, I will consider simply shutting the doors, or leaving.

Sorry to see it get like this, and don't blame anyone for it. I believe it is an attitudinal problem that people are now starting to associate with this site.

When this site all started and the ball got rolling, people were encouraging each other, the topics were positive, and whilst opinionated weren't offensive to other peoples views, and so on.. Nowadays, forget it. Shot down within minutes. There is someone there waiting to jump down your throat all the time it seems. People don't follow rules, no matter how much you ask em, and then wonder why their posts get removed...

Well I'm over it.

Robo · 29 Apr 2005, 4:20 pm

Thats true
But there are those of us who are doing the right thing and I for one don't want to see the end of it! I spose you should just have a one strike and your out policy. Hopefully those of us who are sensible will outlast the riff raff.
Rob....

57kombi · 29 Apr 2005, 4:32 pm

I mentioned this last week.
I dont post as much as I used to. it just doesnt seem the happy chilled place that it was a while ago.
I am the first to admit that I have started some posts to get reactions but they never had a go at anyone personally.

Its the same with this bad attitude section.
I cant see why we need it on a VW forum.
If I wanted to talk about my sex life or to see how big I am by seeing how many swear words I can include in one sentance, well there are proberbly sites you can do this on.

I now visit another site more than this and it is a refreshing change as they help and encourage each other.

I expect I will get slagged off for my comments anyway.

Cheers
Dave

squizy · 29 Apr 2005, 4:39 pm

The unfortunate thing is that people put in negative comments, and stir people up on purpose.....people are making a cognicent effort to be negative towards others.

It's pretty simple to be nice to others, peoples. If you have a problem with that on the Forum, go and take it out elsewhere - or not at all.

BiX · 29 Apr 2005, 4:41 pm

there seem to alot of older members who arn't here, or don't post as much as they used to. The forum has changed ALOT.

I try and limit how much i post and in what forums, eg stick to the racing and tech sections...........

see what happens in the future?

squizy · 29 Apr 2005, 4:46 pm

I'm with Dave on BA too.....whilst I've been on there, perhaps it's not what we need afterall. It was worth having ago, but has perhaps created some walls between people.

All good karma to everyone. :sandrine

bajachris88 · 29 Apr 2005, 4:51 pm

I'm a bit of a noob here, and i have seen the evil darkness of this forum. Its very prominent.

I've been roused on (pretty nastily) cause i was new for not knowing about the search funtion, or about polls etc. I was roused on and had a persistent guy jumping down my throat because he took offense by misunderstanding my language. By all means, its still a great place for info (Hence why im still here), but it does have its scum. (im not refering to anyone particular, otherwise they would jump down my throat AGAIN).

But it is an issue. fancy adults like you guys (well the majority) pickin' on me (a 16 year old). Ive been called a fuck wit and everything here. And i have only been here for a couple of weeks. There are the good people around, theres no doubt about it. (which is great, there warming welcome and understanding of my NOOB ways is also what kept me here).

But ITS GOTTA STOP.

MikeM · 29 Apr 2005, 4:52 pm

When you promote a forum with a "bad Attitude" section it's not surprising that people develop "bad attitudes". By the same token this "Bad Attitude" forum has taken allot of the "non vw posts" out of general chit chat and other sections.

The forum has changed allot, but everything in life does. Things wax and wane.

More then ever this forum is developing a commercial face. There are allot of people with a commercial interest posting on the forum. People may have a problem with this commercial interest over their hobby.

I still find this forum useful so I plan to stick around. I apologise if I am one of the ones you want gone.

[Edited on 3/5/2005 by MikeM]

BiX · 29 Apr 2005, 4:58 pm

"the only constant in the universe is change"

just hate to see what society changes into in 20 yrs time.........:cry

HotRodMatt · 29 Apr 2005, 4:58 pm

From a member of a forum that is explicitly designed to "piss off the purists" and where taking the piss out of each other is expected in every other post...

I don't think at one moment you could have looked at me and didn't see a huge smile (or giggle) . It was just so amazing to be around all these incredible people who are so real, and true to themselves, and I sat down at one point in the evening and thought, it's those damn vw's that brought this group together, though really everyone was there to meet each other, then I thought, yeah all those other groups that i have been apart of have got it all wrong, this is what it is supposed to be like!

EgeWorks · 29 Apr 2005, 4:59 pm

It makes me sad to think that the forum has got so bad that one of the most important people here doesn't like it anymore.

I don't go in the BA forum, but it seems that since it's recent creation the problems havn't got better, they may have gotten worse.

I think this place was and can still be the best dub site on the net if only people would think before they act and just be a bit more careful before they decide to stir the pot.

I don't post here that much, but I try to make all my comments relevent and in good taste. It's not rocket science, I don't have to try very hard...

Just have some respect. This place is too good to go to the dogs.

Eden.

Robo · 29 Apr 2005, 5:06 pm

Thats the best answer I have seen. I totaly agree.
Rob...

dodge · 29 Apr 2005, 5:18 pm

I agree with squizy and Dave. I think the BA forum isn't doing us any good.
I don't come on as much as I used to, even though I'm a moderator.....
Its not even fun to moderate anymore!!! And the only U2Us I get nowadays are ones for reported bad posts!!

Lets go back to being one big happy family.... PLEASE!!!!!

Che Castro · 29 Apr 2005, 5:25 pm

I've been on the forum since the ezboard days and it didn't used to be so bitchy. It has turned recently turned that way. People on other forums often mention how bitchy it is on AVD. There is the bulk of regulars that are pretty cool and laid back, it's just a few people who stir shit. I think as a whole we need to relax a bit more, we are all a bit too uptight sometimes

I havent been on the BA forum yet, but i'll check it out soon

[Edited on 29-4-2005 by Che Castro]

bugeyedbabe · 29 Apr 2005, 5:28 pm

ege works...

u cant solely blame ba....the negative vibes came before that...i think that was why ba was actually set up (or oenof the reason)

In the forum there is very little bitching & back biting going on...unless a post from general chit chat actually got moved into it...

(which we've seen...and here is my fav...once a post or two, which were in general chitchat and then moved ..(due to the concern to the moderators)...ppl stopped posting on it...there r very few posts being made too it now....)

sure there are silly posts, but if someone hurts someone..or found something they said/posted upset someone else...the person who committed the offending post tends to remove it or apologise for it straight away....or both.

so before u say its BAs fault....check it out again...no anger...no fighting between the main ppl who post....its really just sillyness in there........

I cannot say for same in other forums....

BUT u know what, there is a point u made which i do fully agree with. its about respect....

not every one thinks the same...& u have to have respect for the differences that exist between parties, as much as anything else, in order for any forum/democracy to work...

and honestly, it comes down to this...if u wouldnt say something to, or about a person, whilst u were standing in front of them...then it is not appropriate to do it thru a forum...any forum...

So if anyone is having trouble working out what is good a good post to place up...compared to bad....just think of it like this...

What i am about to do/or say & the reactions i cause... ...would it make my mum proud???

VDUBXTC · 29 Apr 2005, 6:04 pm

i have noticed a lot of the older wiser dubers missing lately too.
it seems to have started when everyone started to try and achive a certain mark or beat someone elses post counts.
we started to get silly comments thrown in here and there just to add another number higher.
people are like sheep, they follow each other with everything they do.
so when someones gets away with being smart the rest will see that and continue on the same lines.

I'm not sure if the BA forum was a good idea, as someone else has said to me. It has taken all the people who made general chit chat a little interesting away from it and into BA to talk crap.

anyways, thats my dribble for the week😉

VolksFolks · 29 Apr 2005, 6:23 pm

Hey Guys,

Mike please understand that the commercial face you mention, re me and Roy, we (and other sponsors) put our hands up and paid good money to this forum in sponsorship, we therefore do have a right to recomend parts etc for sale, it is our business's, like others go out to work in pubs,hospitals,tradesmen etc, i now do most of my business over the net and will have a new website up and running next week, please dont take it the wrong way bud!

anyhow, i use BA but i feel it is BN (bad news) dump it, also dump the post counts, just have member since blabla, ppl will know when you joined the site. we need more project stories etc, i know i have a few on the go, my 2c worth

Andy

[Edited on 29/4/2005 by VolksFolks]

killakornkobb · 29 Apr 2005, 6:31 pm

i'll admit i did the whole post count thing last night.. didnt get very far..and it was only cos mikem sed he'd beat me... but i think scrapping the post count is a good idea.. registered since, is plenty of "status"

i remember when coming here was to get away from the flamewarz of OCAU

and bad attitude - should vW's be associated with bad attitudes?

btw i love this website, and love to see it continue to run, and be a great place of the VW community in Australia to be able to hang out, and chat when there isnt a show on🙂

sax · 29 Apr 2005, 6:47 pm

This is a worry.
We need to save this forum whatever the cost.
(even if it means I have to behave myself)

I admit we have a commercial face now but that is great,
the traders belong here and the more the merrier. We need them for our hobby and they need us.

BA forum is a good laugh but will probably die out eventually.

Anything else to help this place and Im all ears.
I agree. the agro is getting outta hand. I ve seen other popular forums suffer due to this and it aint good. The best brains end up giving the place a miss.

pod · 29 Apr 2005, 8:02 pm

i agree with Sax ,we need to save our forum ,the traders are good to have on here as they know what you want and where to get it:thumb
the post count needs to be shot out the window , and the ba forum .... well its not really VW is it,the for sales etc is good as have bought some great stuff from there,but people must respect what others think there stuff is worth ,if they dont like a price they dont need to buy,but instead they post crap about the item,Guys thats not on ,as i`ve read what others have posted ,this is the best Veedub site and would miss its information and some of the laughs ive had so far🙂
Just my 2cents worth as well

77bay · 29 Apr 2005, 8:02 pm

I don't know if my opion counts for much if people only look at how many posts I make. I've been visiting on and off for over 12 months but only became a member after I finally got my kombi. In that time I have seen alot of change in this site with the way people treat each other.

I am forever telling my kids "if you wouldn't like someone doing it or saying it to you, then don't do it" or " will I get into trouble for saying/doing this; yes, well I better not do it" but it seems people are now on here to cause trouble. Maybe they see this site as a way to get easy compensation for slander or defamation of character, who knows. This wasn't the reason I finally got my kombi. I just wanted to finally mellow out and enjoy life.

I had my time in my late teens/early twenties where I wanted to punch everyones light out etc. and am over all that. It seems there will be stirrers not matter what happens and some people can take it better than others. But you will find most of the trouble makers are also the biggest whingers when the shoe is on the other foot. Gutless little wonders who can dish it out but not take it themselves.

I enjoy most posts put on here and ignore the crap when it surfaces. I have also gained some very useful information and contacts from this site. I would hate to think this could all be lost because of the minority.

That's my two cents worth, peace.:kiss

ruckus · 29 Apr 2005, 8:31 pm

I'm for the 'registered since' idea instead of post counts. Might have a surprisingly soothing effect.

Just want to acknowledge the mods too as their workload must have significantly increased since memberships and posts have risen. Thanks to you guys I have learnt so much in a little under a year, and I doubt I could have anywhere else.

Just my 2c

bugboymatt · 29 Apr 2005, 8:36 pm

It's a sad day when it comes to this. The guy that started it all, who we have to thank for this. Actually states as he did his feelings on what is happening to this forum.

I read alot more than i post on here. I can see the change that has gone on. I must admit i look at the posts and more often than not head to Volkszone.

I would spend ages somedays on here reading threads, but alas not much nowadays.

Change is always going to happen. But I hope this wave of change doesn't cost us this forum. I joined this before i even migrated to live here in oz, after seeing Jim's ride in volksworld.

I just hope the direction changes to one of the old days of AVD before it's too late.

MickH · 29 Apr 2005, 8:37 pm

I post bugger all because there is nothing of relevance to post about anymore. You read the same crap every day,someone having a winge or a swearing session on BA. What happened to all the VW talk??? Most definetly going the way of the dodo....unfortunately😠

pyr0 · 29 Apr 2005, 8:43 pm

i too have noticed this.....when i 1st joined up i could go for days just reading before i would post anything, now days theres not much worth reading 🙁

i also hope that things start to swing back to the old ways 😎

mhbourke · 29 Apr 2005, 9:03 pm

I love this forum. I have seen it go down hill with repeated bagging and stupid replies.
Just remember if you can't say something nice don't say it. Prices are between buyers and sellers, if you can offer a better price or where to get it start a new post don't hijack.
As far as the commercial side being on the forum, Its great, some can be iffy sometimes but no bad comments should go on the forum. Personal u2u or email if available and people are warned without a cat fight

sax · 29 Apr 2005, 9:10 pm

So how do WE start again and reduce the signal to noise ratio?

I hate to say it but BA has to go, we all know who the sickos are now so let it
go and then maybe vw posts will return instead.

Old timers and smart vw folk need to be encouraged back.

Moderators must adopt a slash and burn approach to any bullshit.

MickH · 29 Apr 2005, 9:13 pm

sax wrote:(edited)

Old timers and smart vw folk need to be encouraged back.

Moderators must adopt a slash and burn approach to any bullshit.

Finally some good reading

pod · 29 Apr 2005, 9:18 pm

sax wrote:Moderators must adopt a slash and burn approach to any bullshit.

hear hear

helbus · 29 Apr 2005, 9:27 pm

It is good to know there is some positive thoughts about moderation. Some have other views and in fact there have been times when people are downright disrespectful to moderators. Threatening to sue (blah blah) is included in this.

In fact I am going to go right ahead now to post some positive VW stuff. Who want's to join me?

mscabrio · 29 Apr 2005, 9:36 pm

I am more than happy to contribute to the positive VW stuff Helbus

:thumb

bugeyedbabe · 29 Apr 2005, 9:43 pm

sax wrote:....
I hate to say it but BA has to go, we all know who the sickos are now so let it
go and then maybe vw posts will return instead.

.......
Moderators must adopt a slash and burn approach to any bullshit.

the first part cracks me up no end...

y, cause sax..u posted there...
also the following have posted in ba...
volkfolks...which u have already admitted too.
vanderay - moderator
jenz - moderator
peter leonard - moderator
Manx Xtc - u posted only 2 days ago....

but my all time favorite would be ......drum roll pls.....
BENNETTON VW!

yes! the man who created aussie vee dubbers...he was there to meet and greet us....checking it was in fact password protected...btu there none he less.....i dont think he has posted since....but he was there...

and sax...im sure i've seen u post there too...provided pics too didnt u??

so...next question i guess is who determines who the sickos r??? what level do the sickos need to show to be deemed sick??

hahaha...

but in all honesty, i doubt closing it will make much difference...and not because ppl will leave of whatever, but because the ppl who were there weren't always the ones causing problems....

yes....i did cause problems...for what, a whole week, if that...but i am only one person....since then i have apologised, ceased my ways, and post only when relevant. i dont make negative posts...and i dont bag ppl...especially not newcomers..

its not only abotu keeping the old timers interested...that is important...but its also about embracing the new ppl...

without newbies (and u all have been new at some stage) the info will die.... it wont get passed on....and then the question wont be keeping old timers...but getting new blood too.

so u have to find a way to embrace them all...

if u take out BA cause it doesnt relate to vw...then the next question will be what about general chit chat.....before bw came along...many threads were noted that general chit chat didnt relate to vw...especially those which were purely social, and for ppl to catch up on....

as for the post count being rmoved...go ahead....most of the the ppl in BA supported the statement that it not come back...

i know it is certainly not something i miss having around...

but also...i wanna say the moderators are doing a GREAT JOB...

some states:
from the 19th April 2005, we have had 232 ppl join aussieveedubbers....that is because joining became compulsory...however prior to this, it took 52 days to have that same numebr join....

the sad part is, of the 232 that joined int he 10 days...only 31 have become active.....

where as over 134 were active from the same number...

the average amount of tiem it takes for a member to become 'active' ie plac a post, is often one to two weeks...

so if all the pple joining see is a newbie getting flamed...for a silly indiscretion...then they wont post....for that same fear...

and why to the old timers tend to post information....cause they like to answer questions...ppls who place most questions, one would think...is a newbie who is just learning...

these r just my thoughts...and i'm sure i will be persecuted for them....

cheers
donna

sax · 29 Apr 2005, 9:51 pm

Maybe i is wrong about killing off BA, just think the novelty of it has worn off already and we are facing crisis talks back at the vw table.

bugeyedbabe · 29 Apr 2005, 10:07 pm

sax...i think the big thing is not killing ba, but creating more positive vibes...

i thought about this ages ago...and i know this is really out there...and i have my own ideas on what some r, and how to fix it...but really...i'm nto game enuf to put it up for fear of getting flames again...

i mite send it onto a moderator when i'm game enuf....its a way to bring oldtimers back...and introduce new ppl into avd...create better relations between ALL clubs ...hopefully increase patronage to the shows....its pretty easy...and invloves 1/2 volunteers from each state...

one day when i'm more game perhaps...

DubCrazy · 29 Apr 2005, 10:18 pm

can i just say...............

to lose this site would be a MAJOR set back to all things vw. i moved to this fine land a few years ago from the uk. when i got here i was having real problems in finding anyone or anything to do with vw's never mind were to get the rarest parts or the highest lift kit. coming from the uk i could get anything from anywhere mainly becasue the countrys so small compared to here. when i found this site and its opened up the whole of this country to me and thanks to many people from this forum i have found parts,shops traders online that i would have never found if not for this site

so on that note... please dont shut it down cuz of a small amount of foolishness keep it going and help out others like me who are looking for like minded people.

i do understand it must be a rear pain in the ass to run here with all the crap that gets thrown around but look past the crap and see the friends uhave made or that hard to find rare part u got ... is it worth giving all that away cuz of some idiots? ...

.............steff..................................

VDUBXTC · 29 Apr 2005, 10:30 pm

bugeyedbabe wrote:
sax wrote:....
I hate to say it but BA has to go, we all know who the sickos are now so let it
go and then maybe vw posts will return instead.

.......
Moderators must adopt a slash and burn approach to any bullshit.
the first part cracks me up no end...

y, cause sax..u posted there...
also the following have posted in ba...
volkfolks...which u have already admitted too.
vanderay - moderator
jenz - moderator
peter leonard - moderator
Manx Xtc - u posted only 2 days ago....

but my all time favorite would be ......drum roll pls.....
BENNETTON VW!

yes! the man who created aussie vee dubbers...he was there to meet and greet us....checking it was in fact password protected...btu there none he less.....i dont think he has posted since....but he was there...

cheers
donna

Yep i admit i posted there.
3 times i think in hole. YAY.

whats your point?

bajachris88 · 29 Apr 2005, 10:34 pm

Guys, like u know, im the new guy no one likes (well, im sure there is a fellow vee dub fan somewhere in here of mine. Its there?) Anyways...

We all can't lose this forum. I have never had so many questions anwered here. Finally, ive found a place where i can ask questions without annoying Mike Sharp (according to Manx_xtc, u know him already. hence why he said i shouldn't post anymore info on Mike or KlubVWoffroad or www.sharpbuilt.com.au).

But still, this is a great place. I suggest we all go right now and post a vw question. Even if it has been done in the past, it can recharge our brains and become fresh again. GO NOW.

bugeyedbabe · 29 Apr 2005, 10:55 pm

manx...my point is u cant paint ALL the ppl in the one forum as sickos...and demand it be closed down for that reason...

different ppl posted in BA for different reasons....and not all bad...

some had jokes...some car adds..some politcal views...some religious...

sax said close it its bad (and not him alone) ...and then went on to say "we know who the sickos r"....

but u dont...not really...i know ur not sick rite....but u posted there... and bennettonvw is definately not sick either....but he posted too....and how is it defined..by number of posts/pics placed up/perhaps the type of pics.....

in some cases its just the threads/posts arent good for kids to see...
especially the yo momma jokes (hey, they mite use 'em on me :duh)

just dont close a forum because it doesnt suit some ppl...find more positive ways to fix it....

first is find out what problem is...where is began....how it started...main players involved...gather the evidence to support the case..

if oldtimers r leaving....ask them why...was it ba, or others fighting...does a particular arguement stand out for them...were they offended by something...were they badgered...were they simply bored??

when i joined...i read a similar argument...but since i had only just joined...i wasnt at fault, and ba wasnt around....so why did they leave??

think about 15 particular oldtimers u ant back...and chat to them...take notes....and then work it out...

like i said...never assume...

just cause they say...it got bad about a month ago...doesnt mean it was ba....perhaps it was prior...or even outside ba...

just a thought...

cheers
donna

sax · 29 Apr 2005, 11:14 pm

All the BS about BA aside, what the forum needs now is to grow
and put forward a professional face especially if there are sponsors involved.

Troublemakers can get whatever the Bali 9 get. Bambang.

This site, if properly handled could generate heaps more coverage both here and OS but even The Samba being huge manges to deal with this sort of thing.
So should we. I'll load up the Dachshunds and get ready for an all out assault
on evildoers, trolls, and dub-bots who keep infiltrating this sacred
piece of cyberspace.

bugeyedbabe · 29 Apr 2005, 11:24 pm

**packing my bags then***

hears dogs at the dog.....

lol

Dasdubber · 29 Apr 2005, 11:25 pm

Well I just typed a massive reply with all my views on the matter just to have a crash when I hit reply (computers fault not forums) .....so in summary, Jim I hope you can continue to see your "baby" grow and flourish rather than mutating into an ugly monster.

I am happy to continuing contributing and moderating until my resto project is finished as I know a lot of people are interested in seeing the progress, but will re-evaluate my inovolvement once it is finished unless attitudes of people (yes a minority I acknowledge) can change.

I know three good vw mates who no longer visit the site (who could have provided a lot of useful information) because of the irrelevant ramblings and ranting and general $hit that provides no benefit to the vw scene.

I hope this trend does not continue so fingers crossed people can grow up and get back to helping eachother and talking about what brought us all together (volkswagens). Remember to not say anything you would not say to the other individuals' face - too many people hide behind their computers as they provide a perception of unaccountability. Think before you type please.

Alan

VDUBXTC · 29 Apr 2005, 11:30 pm

bugeyedbabe wrote:manx...my point is u cant paint ALL the ppl in the one forum as sickos...and demand it be closed down for that reason...

cheers
donna

Ok
i can agree with the fact that it doesn't need to go. some people have found a place they enjoy on the forum, which is fair enough.
But i think atleast the name should be changed, because its as you say not all bad stuff.

And please bugeyed tell me where i have ever said anyone that hangs out there is a sicko?
I try not to generalize people so if i have please point it out so i can modify the comment.

sax · 29 Apr 2005, 11:35 pm

So Bad Attitude becomes ' Just shit really' or will we call it ' The Waffle House' ?

bugeyedbabe · 29 Apr 2005, 11:50 pm

no, manx - wasnt saying u said it...said sax had...I was just trying to point out that mayeb by generalising like taht good ppl are being called a name they may not like...

but it seems sometimes ppl post bad things about BA, and they haven't visited it....

I agree also, that in time, it will settle down...

A change of name is agreed.....i'd prefer to not have 'bad attitude' in the title......howabotu nothing neg in title....will think on it too...

And another thing maybe to ask ppl in there to be awar the titles of their posts are seen in topics and perhaps offensive to more sensitive viewers...including kids... that what i try to keep in mind when i put post in there...

VDUBXTC · 29 Apr 2005, 11:59 pm

mynameischris88 wrote:We all can't lose this forum. I have never had so many questions anwered here. Finally, ive found a place where i can ask questions without annoying Mike Sharp (according to Manx_xtc, u know him already. hence why he said i shouldn't post anymore info on Mike or KlubVWoffroad or www.sharpbuilt.com.au).

.

Dude.
OK firstly I have never said don't ask questions on AVD

secondly i have never said not to ask mike sharp questions or to not ask questions on Kluboffroad or sharpbuilt site.

What i did say is if you can't find the info by looking then ask the question on here. someone will answer them, yes you will get a few odd comments, but post a unhappy smilley, they will get what you mean. hopefully they won't continue.

But anyways this thread is not about your probs or mine its about the future of this forum.
If we can't stop naming names and bagging each others things then maybe the right thing to do is shut the place down.
I for 1 hope this doesn't have to come to this, but Jim is the creator and i am sure he will do as he sees right.

BUGEYEDBABE.

I can see your points with the BA forum and i can understand that you don't want to see it struck off.
as i wouldn't like to see the offroad forum struck off either.

no one can say that its all the BA forums fault. and i don't think anyone has said that.
I for 1 think that its not.
although i am not a fan of that part of the forum, other people use and enjoy it, but its a contributor, as is the for sales and general chit chat, and most of the other forums, the only one that doesn't contribute to the problems is help out a dubber forum.

VDUBXTC · 30 Apr 2005, 12:02 am

OH and ps

I am thick as a brick so it may take a little while to understand some of these comments😉

Boozer · 30 Apr 2005, 12:23 am

sax wrote:So Bad Attitude becomes ' Just shit really' or will we call it ' The Waffle House' ?

Let's call it the "Misfits Clubhouse". I like it.:thumb what? stop looking at me like that...

seriously now.

I've been here a little while now, and I'd like to think that i'm a fairly well known and at least a little bit respected and liked on here. Yes the forum has changed and gotten a bit negative, but it's still a far more interesting place to me than STF. Here's what I think will help:
1. Banish Post count permanently- or just make it invisible to members and have people go up levels normally, just you can't see when=no competition. I used to be a post freak, me and Blackmat/Riaan (lazy bastard), but I was an idiot that wanted to be like the regulars.
2. BA Forum: Feels like a 2nd home/AVD to me. But then I'm a freak. I'm mean shit, there's Zombies in my backyard, angry mobs in my frontyard and baja's and bugs inbetween. I personally think it should be kept as it has settled down now and it's become like KK's Late Night Dubbers thread.
3. If this place goes, my list of friends will decrease by about 98%- no kidding.
4. I think moderator do need to take more of a active stance, earlier it wasn't needed and there was peace and harmony and then the misfits like me and KK and $2.63 and the rest of the mob showed up. *SPLAT!* The trick will be to not become tyrannical and nasty with the moderator stuff. There's a sense of community here that needs to be kept.
5. If I'm a moderator i'll fix this problem once and for all! Seriously.

STOP LAUGHING! Screw you all!
6. I can't think of anything else cept that everyone needs to take a chill pill and remember that we are not interacting with computers or non-existant things, but real people who need to be respected and acknowledged for their differences, belief, knowledge or lack of and so on. Long Live AVD.

Herbie · 30 Apr 2005, 2:17 am

Maybe rename the bad attitude section as the Sealed section or Adults only section, that doesn't sound as bad,

Its true about the dont say anything that you wouldn't say in person, and I will quickly admit I can bite, react and even slog out of line when its a hot post, Often its hard to communicate in text when you cant show inflection or Jovial Sarcasm or other emotions too successfully, and you dont realise you have offended anyone till you get a whack back.

As far as not saying anything you wouldn't say in person goes, I can be quite forward and shocking in person with a warped sense of humour, something that doesn't always read too well when you type it.
This gets me into all sorts of scrapes on the forum.

It only takes 2 people to bump like that and it can be a bit ugly, often a simple misunderstanding can escalate into mayhem that cant be diffused by typing, typing more sometimes just makes it worse.
And even just down to the fact that the most knowledgable VW enthusiast may not be the best communicator can make the information pear shaped.

The post counter sadly makes dribblers look like they have had a lot to contribute, so maybe just make the post count visible to the indvidual in their own profile, for their own interest and not allow it to encourage meaningless dribble post races.

There is also the mention of the older wiser enthusiasts not being as prominent anymore,
I think partly, its like buying car magazines, eventually you get to the point where you have read it all before and find that you dont buy them as much, after all, theres only so much to learn about cars before you have a pretty good grasp of whats what.
Its not like we are even covering much in the way of new technology here, I think most of us have old VWs, less of the New VW people are generaly enthusiasts as many of them buy the new VWs as just cars to get from A to B, although we do have a few very enthusiast New VW owners on here, and thats good, they are all cool cars.

Everything comes in waves.

vanderaj · 30 Apr 2005, 4:37 am

We have yet to receive a reported post from Bad Attitude - basically, I think that section has a certain type of person in there, and they're getting on fine. I'm one of them, but I honestly don't think Bad Attitude is the problem. If there was a lot of real aggro in there coupled with a lot of reported posts, then it would go. That's simply not the case.

Buying and Selling along with our more commercial posters (not sponsors!) on the other hand has been the source of all of our lawsuits. The commercial aspect is also responsible for about 60-75% (or more) of the reported posts, mostly to do with compliance or "I got in first".
My views on keeping Buying and Selling have never wavered - I think eBay is a far better place for this activity, mainly as they are paid to take care of the rubbish that goes backwards and forwards when things go wrong.

General Chit Chat makes up nearly all of the remainder of the reports, and basically if many of those posts had been made in a forum like Bad Attitude, I doubt they'd be reported. Only the 1916 threads of yesteryear made an impression outside of General Chitchat.

However, I have noticed a definite deterioration in courteous discourse in the last few months (prior to Bad Attitude, mainly), although I see it continuing out in certain threads in General Chitchat. I echo Jim's sentiments that I don't like to ban people, but if that's what it takes, that's what it takes.

I am definitely in the mood to turn off post counts; some threads exist for nothing else, so basically I'm not fussed if we turn the outward display of that off to discourage zillions of one or two word posts.

Andrew

mscabrio · 30 Apr 2005, 8:41 am

sax wrote:So Bad Attitude becomes ' Just shit really' or will we call it ' The Waffle House' ?

I like the Waffle house !

bajachris88 · 30 Apr 2005, 10:05 am

Really, this bad attitude swampin' the forum is not just deteriorating the forum itself, but its also deteriorating its members.

We are beginning to fight more often, calling each other shit this, fuck that etc.etc. People just need to be enforced that by all means, say something against someone (if you disagree or have a suggestion), but do it in an appropriate and friendly matter.

Eg.

Bad attitude 1 : "Chris is a fukwit (yada yada), next time, use the search function"

Good attitude 2: "Ay mate, just to inform you, there is a search function that you can use if you need information on this topic next time. Its been posted in the past, and has what your lookin' for"

Now see the difference. Just play friendly. Its good for the forum, and its good for you.

Octa · 30 Apr 2005, 10:24 am

Sadly, it seems to me, most the issues/concerns raised by some of the replies in this post are symptomatic of an on-line form and people's attitude of virtuality. More and more I have seen it happening in other forums (thesamba, etc) because people believe they are untouchable due to being online. Someone mentioned (in another post I think) that when you post on this site it should be as if you were face to face with the person. Just because we are all sitting at our lounges/study/work/garages/etc does not mean that manners can be forgotten. I commend the attitude (which is very mature) of Chris (mynameis...)due to the fact that he can see how sentences can be composed to lend a hand or provide feedback rather that display frustration (that most times are not derived from the forum but rather personal circumstance). I myself have never been in BA and that is because I do not see the point. I frequent the general forums because I like to chat (about anything) wiht fellow dubbers, the members rides because it inspires me and educates me, the tech sectiosn because I learn and sometimes I can help others, and the sale/swap because I am always looking to see what is out there. I also believe is great how sponsors are also members and do suggest that they have a specific part for sale, because without them we would never have some specific parts to slam or accessorise our cars.

I am a Libra and thus always try to lobby for balance, and it seems the balance has gone asthray. We share a common passion/hobby/etc. I know that there are infinite personalities and that not everybody can get along, however, we should all strive to be civil to each other. Eventhough what you read is oly words, who wrote them are people on the other side of the keyboard, just like your brothers/sisters/parents/close friends/etc treat them like so. :thumb

bugeyedbabe · 30 Apr 2005, 10:26 am

1/ i agree...get rid of post counts PLEASE...

everytime someone brings this issue up...i get u2us privately...and i am so fed up of it....nothing i did was good enuf...i stop doing guys, i apologise profusely...and i still cop flack..even now...

so i AGREE...get rid of post counts, just make the invisible like we had them b4.......please andrew...

2/ change name of BA....i like VW Misfits Club...i think it summarises us pretty well really....most of us dont feel we fit anywhere else....and pls, dont tell u ALL come just to chat vw and nothing else.....if all u wanted was tech info and buyig & selling....u'd just go visit ur mechanic...he has all that stuff...u come, maybe not as much for, but for a little the social side.....to meet other like minded people...whether it is in offroaders rats & rods or chitchat...its where we go in between the meetings....to talk to ppl who have a love for the VW....we're unique...we own a car few understand...or understand why we love it....

3/ and like chris said...lets just try to keep it nice guys....its not what u say, so much as how u say it....i know i post sometimes, and it hurt someone...but if i find out...i either change/clarify the post, or remove it..

there are real ppl watching/reading all this stuff....and they have real emotions...what u say can have a positive effect, or negative effect. I personally choose to try to be positive where ever i can.

i think its the mother thing in me....

anyway...it cant be a bad thing to be nice....unless u let ur mum walk out the house with her dress tucked in her undies cause u were too nice to mention it....:P

Octa · 30 Apr 2005, 10:30 am

hey bugeyed, we almost posted the same thing 🙂

bugeyedbabe · 30 Apr 2005, 10:34 am

great minds think alike...

bajachris88 · 30 Apr 2005, 10:35 am

bugeyed, ur a champ. (and of course, everyone else who wants to improve this highly worthwhile forum)

Just remember this everyone:

"Don't let the world bring you down, no everyone here is so fucked up and cold, remember why you came and why your alive, experience the WARMTH before you go..." [Incubus, Warmth. Great song, especially from my guitarist point of view.]

So if ur copin' crap, stay, cause there are good guys 'n' girls around who will help ya be good mates.

bugeyedbabe · 30 Apr 2005, 10:41 am

just trying my best to bring good vibes into the world....:kiss

bajachris88 · 30 Apr 2005, 10:42 am

Your doing a great job. We're proud of ya!

Spook · 30 Apr 2005, 11:53 am

Being the arrogant prick that I am, I'll say it out loud;

I TOLD YOU SO & WHAT'S MORE, I TOLD YOU SO TWO F#CKING YEARS AGO!!!

My reasons for thinking the place has gone to shit are well known, particularly by the officious bloody bureaucrat I hold personally responsible.

We don't get asked about changes anymore, we get told. Or we get asked AFTER the event, which amounts to the same thing.

We don't get asked to pick moderators anymore & yet there seems to be a shitload of them.
But, all of a sudden we "NEED" a seperate section for people who "keep brushing up against the forum rules", which shows the same moderators can't do the f#cking job.
Simple logic really.

General chat is chock full of drivel. there's just nothing to reply to anymore.
I've gone from 10 posts a day to one or two a month.

Drop me a line when you make a new one Boss, I'll be there in 10 minutes.

bajachris88 · 30 Apr 2005, 12:02 pm

I don't think your an arrogant prick.

57kombi · 30 Apr 2005, 12:07 pm

I do and I agree with him.

Cheers
Dave

Starbug · 30 Apr 2005, 12:56 pm

heres the problem as i see it:

if someone doesnt like something that someone has said/done/posted/is wearing, then instead of telling that particular person, they tell alot of other people and get a whole lot of superfluous people involved in something that could have been sorted out in an email between the first 2 ppl.

i make about 2 posts to general forum maximum per day... i used to make many more. why do i make less now? because everyones just bitching like a bunch of 14 year old girls.
its not highschool, its not your workplace, so no-one gains anything from gossiping or bitching here.
we are all adults here (even the youngest of us) so why not start acting like adults?

if you have a problem with someone, please tell them so, in a civil way, by email. sort it out between yourselves because most of us dont want to know about it, and the fact that its being made public for everyone to see is just turning ALOT of people off... myself included.
if i wanted to watch a bunch of people bitching and tearing eachothers throats out, i would go watch some teenagers shopping in the city...

on the other hand i have been posting 3-4 times per day in the BA forum... why? because everyone behaves like civil adults in there... even when they are being gross or not talking about vw-related topics... but its not accusing or offending anyone in the forum, no-one is bitching about anyone else, no-one is getting anyone else involved in their personal problem with another forum member.

you dont read a book or watch a movie that you dont want to just because you see it on the shelf/its right in front of you, so dont read a forum that you dont want to read just because its there... if BA shits you, then dont read it... its choice, simple as that.

i agree, BA should probably get its name changed to something a little more tasteful, and i also agree that its slowing down in there, not so many postings... maybe it will just turn into one of those funny stories/venting/shit thats funny but isnt related to the main forum parts... theres nothing wrong with that, alot of forums that i subscribe to have a seperate forum for people to just vent silly shit, no-one takes offence... why should anyone?

post counts have to go... thats unanimous.

everyone needs to chill out... thats also unanimous.

jenz58 · 30 Apr 2005, 1:23 pm

....so where was the fighting and bitching happening...I've been off line for a couple of days....from what I've seen it still happens out here with some guys getting off side with each other...

As for post counts who really cares...yes get rid of them as they don't really serve a purpose and seem to attract lots of bad vibes...yeas mine are high and I do talk dribble a lot of the time while waiting to add a decent comment somewhere of interest in the VW related areas...

BA has been a lot of fun....it's not everyone's cup of tea but it is only there for people who take the time to register...you don't have to go in and look...it can be totally ignored....people in there aren't being agro at all ...far from it...but yes a lot of the content may offend some....It is not a necessary part of the forum so it could easily go

...but if I'm reading the start of this thread right the problem was probable out here in the general forum....bad attitude out in the open yet again...

bajachris88 · 30 Apr 2005, 1:32 pm

"Why can't we be friends, why can't we be friends"

Ha ha, if anyone has watch the "Chubb Chubbs" 3d cartoon in the extras section of the "Man in Black 2" DVD, then they would know that phrase.

bajachris88 · 30 Apr 2005, 1:35 pm

My suggestion,

regardless of the BA topic, we need FORUM POLICE. That is, non-corrupt individuals who warn others that if they continue there bad actions, they get the kick.

I suggest that there should be 3 warnings given , and then they get the kick. And the warning count restarts about every month or two.

How does that sound for an idea?

jenz58 · 30 Apr 2005, 2:25 pm

Admin and moderators try their best...and I guess are the 'forum police'....the thing is when we do act there are always complains about censorship etc etc....

We can't be online all the time...and sometimes dson't know an event is going on in a thread...some members to let us know if things are getting out of hand..

Yes the 3 offences and you're out is often discussed....admin are the ones to issue these type of warnings...

We will always have cowboys on here....it's the nature of the internet....so safe to sit at home and dis

Boozer · 1 May 2005, 12:01 am

mynameischris88 wrote:My suggestion,

regardless of the BA topic, we need FORUM POLICE. That is, non-corrupt individuals who warn others that if they continue there bad actions, they get the kick.

I suggest that there should be 3 warnings given , and then they get the kick. And the warning count restarts about every month or two.

How does that sound for an idea?

ME!ME! ME! Do I get a gun?

62deluxe · 1 May 2005, 12:02 am

I gotta agree with Jen, I don't like where this place has been heading but you can't change human nature.

I say get rid of the post counts. I've been on here a fair while now, but I really can't be bothered posting much anymore because of all the knockers and piss takers......

It really would be a shame to loose such a valuable tool- hell I've bought a loota crap off this forum and made a lot of friends and contacts.
Like I've said before though- If you can't say something nice shut the
F#$K UP. No need for it, never was never will be.

It seems to be a problem with society in general these days (god I sound old!!), people have no respect for others anymore, really I see that this forum is just a reflection of that attitude in the broader community.
Look at alot of kids now- itching to punch your lights out just for glancing at them. No respect for anyone. (sorry to generalise kiddies)

I don't know what the answer is, maybe we just need to stop and think before we post- is it necessary? is it constructive?
Would I say that to someone if they were six foot six and standing in front of me? I think in alot of cases the answer would be no.......
It all comes down to respect, respect for yourself and others.......

It's up to all of us to do something, not just the "BOSS" or the moderators.
Another scrurge of modern society- NO ONE will stand up and take responsibility for their own actions (or words!).

We shouldn't need big brother watching over us, it's up to the entire forum community to take a little bit of responsibilty for what happens on here......
Remember think before you type...........
😉

foxy_fuchsia · 1 May 2005, 12:55 am

🙂 Hi I have been on this site since I owned my first bug back in 2001 but only rejoined a few months ago. I think AVD should be a place for friendly chat, VW talk and everything else vw related. I think it’s important to still have discussions on non related VW topics, this being kept in general chitchat and BA (with a change of name), I love catching up with everyone and I don’t always want to be talking about vw’s.

I think you should form a ‘points’ system on avd, for example when you are trying to get your license…on avd you start off a learner for 3 months with 4 points, then after 6 months you get your P’s and your points go up to say 8 points and once you have been a member for more then a year you get your opens and 12 point?!

If someone loses all of there points they go on a 3 month suspension, if they come back and the same thing happens then next time it’s a suspension for 6 months ect.

And yes you need to be harsh whether these people kick up a stink or not! If they are serious dubbers here to share there love, they aren’t going to be affected. If people want to be negative and offensive outside the approptiate areas then kick em.

I do think the BA forum should atleast be restructured to make it more appealing…change the name and have things catagorised. Boozer you had a good name idea, influenced by KK ‘LATE NIGHT DUBBERS CLUB’ or just simply ‘OVER 18’S’ or ‘NOT EVERYONE’S CUP OF TEA!’ thanks to Jenz58…that’d be cool 😀 And I think you should enforce one rule if people are going to be posting in BA - 1. Don’t enter if you are offended easily, have fun and respect each individual who posts there.

foxy_fuchsia · 1 May 2005, 12:56 am

:sandrine It would be a good idea to come up with a brand new thread that’s exclusive to ‘old timers’. Where you have to be a member for a certain amount of time? Just ideas…

I think what bugeyedbabe said is very true, just as important as the old timers are the newbies. My first experience coming back to AVD a few months ago was a negative one and I know others can say the same. I almost left because I was very annoyed…people actually thought I was someone acting with two different nick names! I had to prove I wasn’t this other person and people didn’t trust me to begin with. I thought…I came here to talk about vw’s and these people are accusing me of being someone else!

People need to be understanding with newbies, they don’t know what topics have been discussed a million times over or how things work! We all need to be more helpful and kind I think.

We really just need to accommodate for everyones needs here, remember that people have different opinions! And well spoken 62deluxe, it’s not just up to one person it is up to the whole community and everyone has to take responsibility for themselves and not place blame

Che Castro · 1 May 2005, 1:32 am

I've never cared about post counts, but some people did or do. So if they get taken away from the title. I would like to have it in my profile though, so I can see.

I dont think a rating system or anything that makes anyone else more exclusive is the way to go. We should all be on a level playing field.

rice_girl · 1 May 2005, 6:00 pm

I must live in dreamland because I never knew the bitching even existed let alone this badly.... :duh

Just remember, there is a big difference between constructive criticism and downright nastiness

bajachris88 · 1 May 2005, 6:16 pm

Its called debating, not bitching. (well, in this case, thats my opinion.) Something needs to be done, even though it is impossible to cure the issue, but at least it can be diluted.

Stanley · 1 May 2005, 7:26 pm

Well after being overseas for a week the first thing I wanted to do after greeting my family was browsing AVD to see what I'd missed while I was away.

Well It seems I missed nothing...Still the same stuff that has caused this thread. It used to be that if you missed a day you could spend an hour catching up on what people had been up to with their VW's. There used be posts from certain members that were compulsory reading, but sadly these members post rarely now, if at all.

As a relatively new member compared to some, but of the more mature age group (mature in age only) I can see where Jim is coming from.
Take the "bad attitude" forum for example, one of the rules I live by is ''is what i'm doing or saying setting a bad example for my kids", well my oldest son is 18 and is more than welcome to log onto that forum, however I've never posted on it but would be rather embarrased if he were to see some of the crap that comes out of there.
I thought this was a volkswagon forum. Lets stick to volkswagenism and not "who's got the best manicured love gear"

To all those positive posters, keep up the good work and share the love.

bajachris88 · 1 May 2005, 7:45 pm

good on ya kafer69, thats the wisdom we all need. 😀

vanderaj · 1 May 2005, 9:28 pm

Spook wrote:Being the arrogant prick that I am, I'll say it out loud;

I TOLD YOU SO & WHAT'S MORE, I TOLD YOU SO TWO F#CKING YEARS AGO!!!

My reasons for thinking the place has gone to shit are well known, particularly by the officious bloody bureaucrat I hold personally responsible.

We don't get asked about changes anymore, we get told. Or we get asked AFTER the event, which amounts to the same thing.

We don't get asked to pick moderators anymore & yet there seems to be a shitload of them.
But, all of a sudden we "NEED" a seperate section for people who "keep brushing up against the forum rules", which shows the same moderators can't do the f#cking job.
Simple logic really.

General chat is chock full of drivel. there's just nothing to reply to anymore.
I've gone from 10 posts a day to one or two a month.

Drop me a line when you make a new one Boss, I'll be there in 10 minutes.

Thanks Spook. Tell us what you really think.

Mods have NEVER been selected by the membership. I'm not saying that this is how it should always remain, but I refute your attempt at re-writing history. Never let the facts get in the way of a good spray, but here goes anyway:

In the early days, all the mods and admins are literally friends of Jim. Then there were a couple who are friends of Brad. I was brought on during the transition from ezboard to help run the back end. This is a job few can do within the current team.

After the initial batch of moderators, most were selected on the basis of who was even handed and most importantly here on a regular basis. VW54, Jen, and others fall into this category, and they have done a sterling job.

The last two batches of moderators have been selected using a slightly different way - it's documented in the Newbie section, and the process hasn't really changed since 2003. We put up a few names in the Moderator's Paradise area, and wait for the current mods / admins to have a say. I like to wait until at least one or more of Brad and Jim have had a say, or a week whichever comes first. If there's general agreement, then the members concerned are bumped to Moderator access. Sometimes, the members ask, most of the time, we notice who is the most helpful, even handed, well liked and here a lot. In general, these mods (such as Helbus and DasDubber) have been very successful.

It's true that moderation haven't been that effectual recently, but the reason is two fold:

1) THere's been a lot of posts, and we simply cannot read them all. I read maybe 20-30 posts a day.
2) Whenever we delete something, I seem to recall that people call "censorship!". In fact, Spook, you are the WORST one for this, especially a few years ago. The pain of proper moderation is so much, that we rarely if ever delete posts. This has really contributed to our current woes.

Contrary to your views on the matter, I rarely moderate. In 2004, I think I moved maybe ten threads - mainly due to your unfounded and unreasonable hatred of me and the formented cries of "censorship" every time a thread is (rightly) deleted. I felt so burnt by the experience when I tried to moderate, only the most defamatory of posts was deleted, and the nasty ones were often left in place.

Not long after to moving to XMB in 2002, we started receiving threats of law suits. At that point, no rules was no longer possible, even if you can't see it. Jim's, Brad's and any of the moderators involved - our houses and so on were at risk from having to defend baseless defamation actions. We run this place for nothing more than the warm glow it gives us. Brad pays the hefty hosting charges which are not covered by advertising income, and now he sponsors this place and has had to step back from running it as it's otherwise a conflict of interest.

There were unwritten rules up to that point, but selective and arbitrary enforcement of unwritten rules will not satisfy people banned or those who had posts deleted.

So we brought in a few rules so we wouldn't have to delete so many posts or come down heavy on members. You and many others helped refine them. The post discussing the rules is still there - I am not making this up. Many of your points were valid, and the rules reflected your input. In fact, I believe your posts were some of the best in that thread, even despite your ugly, unfounded and unwarranted hatred of me.

Back to the topic, you'll be surprised at this, but we (as in mods and admins) tend to talk about what we do in terms of the rules - some people have got off fairly lightly as the current rules don't cope with their behavior.

I don't think you're getting the picture spook. Both Jim and myself are sick of the back biting, the law suits, and the general nastiness exhibited by posts such as yours. It's not another forum which would be created, but the slow death of this one. We'd wash our hands of it if it gets much worse.

If you don't like the rules, especially as you helped create them, leave. I certainly wont miss you.

Yours in official bureaucracy,
Andrew

VWFOOL · 1 May 2005, 10:00 pm

wat a shame the forum came to this

helbus · 1 May 2005, 10:14 pm

This whole thread is an interesting read!

Anyway who wants to come and read some positive VW stuff and lets all have some positve replies.

I am really playing a lot with our bus at the moment, Baybuscamperkid has nearly got his kombi ready for rego, Jay is getting a kombi, Slowbay70 is fixing his clutch, Golde60 has it's engine in. There is so much happening.

Don't miss it. Get in and contribute with either your experiences, or what you would like to do, what you have seen.

<Helbus saunters away in fishnets, one fist in the air> chanting "Vee-dubble-yew, Vee-dubble-yew, Vee-dubble-yew, Vee-dubble-yew, Vee-dubble-yew, Vee-dubble-yew, Vee-dubble-yew, Vee-dubble-yew"

jenz58 · 1 May 2005, 10:22 pm

From Spook
".....

But, all of a sudden we "NEED" a seperate section for people who "keep brushing up against the forum rules", which shows the same moderators can't do the f#cking job.
Simple logic really.

....."

It's just that the people who brushed up against the forum rules would get others egged up over censorship....the new forum was set up so people could air their views and not not have others complain....thing is the people airing their views and stirring stuff up at the expense of others are still out here....

Unfortunately we seem to have stirred up moral issues now as well...from raising 3 kids now healthy young adults...these subjects do not influence or corrupt...they are a healthy normal part of adult joking and story telling...for over 18 year olds...but these things would be in conversation well be fore this age....nothing that has been posted is in any way a criminal offence.....some of us feel more comfortable with being open and having a bit of fun....and it is not out in the open...it is people's choice to go in and see no one is forcing them

$2.63 homebrand baja · 1 May 2005, 11:16 pm

Boozer wrote:4. I think moderator do need to take more of a active stance, earlier it wasn't needed and there was peace and harmony and then the misfits like me and KK and $2.63 and the rest of the mob showed up. *SPLAT!* The trick will be to not become tyrannical and nasty with the moderator stuff.

:vader leave me out of this, B4 BA I posted BS but would routinely delete the most offensive stuff. I haven't been censored yet, and worked out, early on, the ebb and flow of the place. I have only really been overly nasty to one member because he smelt like cow poo and deserved it.
I will not be labled a misfit, nor be accused of having any form of mob mentality.
I read and appreciate a lot of the tekkie stuff,etc, just don't post crap in there as it's not the done thing.
Thanks to BA I can say with confidence in comparison to some of the frootloops in here I am quite beige :puke
Perverts :duh

bugeyedbabe · 2 May 2005, 12:21 am

i think we're getting closer to what we can try to improve a bit more...especially to outsiders..

1/ get rid of post count
2/ Change name of BA
3/ BA subjects and post NOT be included in the Topic Activities....unless ur looking for it....and have applied for the password...dont show it in the topic activities...
4/ RESPECT for each other, and the differences that exist between us all...and be nice in voicing ur opinions.

Good place to start i'd think....

vanderaj · 2 May 2005, 12:45 am

Bad attitude's topics are not visible to people who have never typed in the password. However, I was notified of a bug where you can see it if you don't know that it existed today. I'll fix that hole in a few days time.

andrew

Spook · 2 May 2005, 3:59 am

vanderaj wrote:Mods have NEVER been selected by the membership. I'm not saying that this is how it should always remain, but I refute your attempt at re-writing history. Never let the facts get in the way of a good spray, but here goes anyway:
Andrew

You want to argue the history of this forum with me, you put your money where your mouth is.

Wes was made moderator by popular vote.
Jay was made moderator by popular vote.

Do you want me to keep going? There are others.

I voted for these people Andrew. That it happened before you became a member does not change that & never will.

I was nominated thee same time as Wes.
At that stage, I hadn't met Brad & to this day, have not met Jim.
So your 'early moderators were close friends' theory doesn't hold water.

What is going to become history is; the place is going down like the Titanic, ON YOUR WATCH.

helbus · 2 May 2005, 8:36 am

Spook wrote:What is going to become history is; the place is going down like the Titanic, ON YOUR WATCH.

You may find that it is on Andrew's watch that the forum has progressed in a huge and positive way. With the help of hundreds of dubbers.

Yet again I go off to post 'relevant and positive VW stuff'

Come join me Spook, you may actually enjoy it!

$2.63 homebrand baja · 2 May 2005, 10:00 am

Last year was a really feel good year in here, people were tolerant of eachother, newbies were welcomed, clubs posted events there was a really great thing happening. People posted silly things or behaved in a foolish manner. Some were warned most behaved. It was friendly, easy going and in general very inviting to curious dub owners new to it all looking to connect with others with the same interest.

Lately it has all shifted, a select few for some reason see fit to degrade the efforts of others, bag clubs, bag rides, bag newbies, bag opinions etc. Others within the forum have perhaps become sick of clicking on a thread only to have to read some shit about someone else. Arguments or opinins which have absoultely nothing to do with the reader. Arguments or opinons which should be kept offline. Fuckwits on a mission to destroy the happiness of others thinking they are winning some pathetic imaginary battle as the oponant has simply dissapeared without a fight.

Ok the BA is bad bad bad.... but if anything the vibes are pretty good in there, numbers are growing, people are communicating freely, not dissimilar to last years crop of dubbers....................... :duh go figure

This forum is in some ways an extension of the real life dub scene. Posting crap about others may seem great in here, but in reality there are a whole string of people who read, evaluate and comment beyond the realms of the internet. In most cases the offending parties are put into the moron category.

The BA is not the problem, its the BA of people in here, and the bad manners. No wonder people are dropping off, who wants to post about a club run or event idea, when all that happens is a host of idiots get on thier high horses and bag it? Who wants to share ideas about vw's, favourite type etc, when they are going to be attacked for not conforming to the viewpoint of the masses? Lets all complain about how the place is being run yet not lift a finger to help..............

Get over yourselves what a bunch of wanks.

koolkarmakombi · 2 May 2005, 10:22 am

BA plays fair because there are adults in there.

Bleatings by a few stuff it up for the many? Remove the few, they can go to www.bitchy.com and play there.

I cannot believe ppl expect to be treated fairly when they dont treat others the same, wanna bleat about how you are so unfairly treated, make it all personal??? well demand your money back and fuck off.

I joined to get some further education and exposure to vw stuff. If I want to talk shit with ppl I go elsewhere. What are we going to do dating next???

I would hate to lose the sale board etc, Could it be a view only, no replies system? Stop any crap thatway, wanna ask a question ring/u2u them.

Jim, dont throw out the whole barrel because of a few bad apples, chuck the apples.

kkk

bajachris88 · 2 May 2005, 10:23 am

Maybe instead of post count, either have nothing, or i suppose the rank could be decided upon how many months/years the person has been a member for. i dunno. just a suggestion.

foxy_fuchsia · 2 May 2005, 10:28 am

Exactly what I was thinking! Get over it! I hate how people try and blame ONE person. It's such a cowardly thing to do. Instead of directing all of your energy into this why not turn it around and do something for once!! It's not about who's right or wrong it's about the forum and talking with people who share a common interest. I have witnessed people bagging others pride and joy, think before you speak, these people have put so much money, blood and sweat into building there dream car and it's all bought down by some immature, insecure and pathetic people! Obviously we don't all like the same things. Some like classic VW's, other like hotted up modified VW's. The key is to have an OPEN MIND!

KruizinKombi · 2 May 2005, 3:32 pm

Hmmm, this thread is an interesting read. I have been lurking around in the background for a couple of reasons of late:

1) I just don't have the time I used to.

2) the negative attitude than Jim speaks of; I've certainly noticed it.

3) I was a moderator on here once. Through moderating a post in a manner I felt was more than reasonable, the person whose post I moderated took offense to the point where he could not be even slightly civil to me even in person, even though on prior meetings I felt I had been friendly towards him. I have enjoyed meeting people from here in the past, but that one experience soured things for me. I just don't feel that it's worth putting my head in a noose by being a moderator.

Everybody makes mistakes, including myself. I have offended people here in the past, sometimes by getting users mixed up, sometimes by just not thinking before hitting "Reply", and other times because I was taking out my otherwise-sourced frustrations, but I believe I have done my best to apologise, explain or make amends. I don't believe that a "One strike" policy will work. I do however think that people need to treat others how they wish to be treated.

Spook, I appreciate the fact that you speak your mind, as I like to do the same. You won't mind then if I tell you without any bias whatsoever that I feel that you go out of your way to target Andrew beyond any degree of rationality. This thread is about bitch-fighting and bad attitudes, and I believe your attitude needs to improve. Whilst I agree with several of the points you have made about Andrew (I'd like to be asked about changes too, and I don't think a week's notice is enough), I don't think you're being fair or reasonable.

My recommendations:

Remove the post counts.
Rename BA
Ask current moderators (and admins of course) about potential new moderators.
Create an agreed procedure for moderators to follow when moderating posts. Eg. Make and keep a copy of the original, make the changes and notify the original author and admin, so they know how many 'strikes' a user is up to.

Spook · 2 May 2005, 7:50 pm

Oh, it's fair.

From the day this goose was given some power, he has banned things without any consultation, added things without any consultation & changed things without consultation.

The problem with doing things that way Col is, when the shit hit's the fan, THERE IS NO ONE ELSE THAT CAN BE TO BLAME.

Right here, right now, we have the man who started this forum wanting out.
So I would suggest that the shit has truly hit the fan.

From memory Col, your another one that we were asked before you were made a moderator.

frenzix · 2 May 2005, 8:49 pm

fucking hell dude, it's just a forum get over it. You sound like your whole life revolves around it.

Jay_1965vw · 2 May 2005, 9:19 pm

I've stayed out of this until now - although I have noticed the whole place sliding down a big hill...

Unfortunately Spook - I'm with Kol, you are NOT rational about Andrew. A lot of what you say about this place in general has merit, but you do seem to have an unreasonable grudge. Would you like him to leave? The place would fall over. Andrew is what makes this place tick (the little cogs behind it, not the day to day what you see on the surface).

I hope everyone will learn to play nice soon. I'm about to go do teaching practice with grade 1s and 2s... I'd like to interact with adults when I get home 🙂

For the record, I'd like to see the post counts removed from easy view.

*off to read some positive vee dubbin*

Jay

jenz58 · 2 May 2005, 10:20 pm

...kol nice to hear from you again :kiss

Spook....what to come into bad attitude and have a mud wrestle with us to get over it all a bit....

I doubt when there has been explainations of actions you have read them with the intent of listening to the words ...

Yes it would be an incredible loss to the VW community here in Australia is this forum folded because of a few hot headed idiots who have rarely contributed anything constructive to this community

vanderaj · 2 May 2005, 11:15 pm

Colin,

generally, if a moderator hasn't read the Moderator's Paradise in a week, then they never will. We can't wait for a few weeks for every decision. I don't want to have weekly "Staff Roll Calls" like I experience on other forums as I feel it's demeaning.

There have been moderator guidelines for more than two years. See post 5982 from 5/4/2003. New moderators know that I send them an e-mail when they join stating this as well. Suspended posts has existed since at least 28/2/2003.

I think the idea of the general membership voting in new moderators is a good one. Maybe next time, we'll use that (modulo Jim's and Brad's thoughts on the matter).

Andrew

vwombat · 2 May 2005, 11:38 pm

RIP Thorun
RIP Heather
RIP Ducky
Slowly flatlining - Frenzix
Ditto but faster - Moi!

At least I've gotten to meet these people and become friends. Wouldn't have been possible without the forum. Thanks all responsible!

As for the rest of this self righteous blah - it's so petty and passionate - who'd want to be a regular contributor anymore? Methinks a few people need to hone their social skills out in the real world for a while before returning to AVD.

What a pathetic storm in a teacup!

Spook · 3 May 2005, 6:14 am

Am I passionate about this forum? Yes, & I make no apology for that.

Jay, the place was here long before Andrew & in case you haven't noticed, it is falling over.

What would I like him to do??
After outright calling me a liar in this thread, I'd like him to come within arms reach. That I don't forgive.
Failing that, get back to asking about changes before making them.
We are members, not disciples.

kombi_kid · 3 May 2005, 6:30 am

its very sad it has come to this!!! its sort of sounds like the things you here off your grandparents complaining "ah it just isnt like the good ole days blah blah blah" but unfortuantely time does roll on and it is th "new days" things run differently people just have to accept that there is nothing anyone can do about it not even back to the future can save us know!!
anyway spook dude ill catch up with ya for a :beer next time im down your way and we will talk positive VW stuff:thumb:thumb:thumb
cheers
rhys

blutopless2 · 3 May 2005, 7:14 am

i dont think that there is much that can be done about the way people interact on here... things change... sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse... censorship is not the answer.... restriction is not the answer... you cant control all of the people all of the time... since i joined this forum there has always been the nasty side of it.. and when provoked i have been guilty of participation in that side also... but in general the forum has been a great place to be and and a great source of information. It has also enabled me to participate in VW events interstate and meet forum members from interstate that i probably would not have ever met.
I think the positives of this forum far outway the minor negatives that you will encounter no matter what you do.
Just my 2c

helbus · 3 May 2005, 9:07 am

Spook you seem to have so much anger!

Did you know I play with the bus every weekend now? We pat the dash and say we love it? The Beetle would sleep in our bedroom with us if it would fit through the doorway and didn't leave oil stains on the rug?

It is all about fun and laughs. 🙂 I enjoy VW stuff, I enjoy people talking about the oddities in their life, I enjoy just hangin' out with you all. I can log on to any number of Google - Searching 8,058,044,651 web pages if I want something different.

This place is what we make it and you are adding anger. Blind Freddy can see that! :kiss from Fleur, :kiss from the Beetle, :kiss from the Bus, and well 🙂 from Me!

frenzix · 3 May 2005, 9:09 am

the 2 above posts are great

byronbus · 3 May 2005, 9:44 am

I apologise for any shit stirring, changing my ways, encouragement all the way...

dsk member

helbus · 3 May 2005, 9:48 am

"Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare
Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare"

jenz58 · 3 May 2005, 10:02 am

lol

...u idiot Pete 😀

Bruce good to hear :kiss 🙂

frenzix · 3 May 2005, 10:05 am

thats all we need more krishnas up here.

theverybigtallman · 3 May 2005, 10:09 am

i think
- post count needs to dissapear. drag racing is usually interesting, but not when your racing numbers.

- any non constructive and/or non vw bs need to be kept away from the stuff that is relevant. it ain't fun when there's nothing interesting to read.

- any thread-hijacking comments need to be deleted. a thread might go from me trying to find a 1200 motor for my car to discussing what someone had for tea or what someone else did to their windows last night. it kind of defeats the purpose of me asking.

- i also think this register-before-you-view thing needs a fix as well. 200+ new members is good, but if stuff all of them are posting, what's the point?

that my $0.02

foxy_fuchsia · 3 May 2005, 10:21 am

All I can say is ***ANGER MANAGEMENT!!***

People shouldn't use this forum to vent there anger, go do it elsewhere! Anywayz, I am soooo over it. Most people arn't going to change and we just seem to be going around in circles! I am going to stick to the areas I want to and keep out of this shit.

CIAO!!!

jenz58 · 3 May 2005, 11:20 am

This is one forum's handling of this issue

Trolling other Fark members: Fark is a site whose mascot is a squirrel with huge nuts, and whose favorite pasttime is boobies and beer. Funny and weird news stories are how the ball got rolling. Most of the comments made here threaten bladder control. Unfortunately, disagreements can and will happen - but there is no need for them to become personal.
TotalFark accounts come with an Ignore Feature. If posts from a particular user are intolerable, they may be added to your personal ignore list. Personal attacks made by anyone including name calling, threats, and any other form of directed attacks against other users will result in suspension of posting.

Messages containing public OR private information: We are aware that most of this information can be found using Whois, or Google, or a phone book - however, posts containing email addresses, phone numbers, street addresses, credit card numbers, etc. are not allowed. (See "messages exhorting others to commit illegal acts" above, in particular the harassment section.)

Hate speech: Criticism is not hate speech, but inflammatory comments directed at a particular ethnic group, sexual orientation, religion, etc. are unacceptable

Messages exhorting others to commit illegal acts: Murder, extortion, and any other felony are expressly forbidden. DoS attacks, hacking, flooding, and all other related computer crimes will be dealt with immediately and in fullest cooperation with local and federal law enforcement. Also, posting copyrighted software, music, etc. is forbidden (for example, linking MP3s of bands other than your own).
Also included in this is harrassment -- for example, encouraging people to call someone on the phone, flood a website/mailbox, etc because they were mentioned in a linked article. (See also "messages containing private information" below.)

Repeatedly reposting something that was deleted: Usually posts are removed for a reason (see above). Reposting it repeatedly, or complaining about it (also see above) is not recommended. Reposting a deleted inline image as a link instead is generally OK (also also see above). Posting something on behalf of someone else that was banned is also uncool

Repetitive messages: Cross-posting, flooding, spamming, advertising for a website, etc. If there's a website out there that people need really need to see - or if you would like more exposure for your own - please use our Classifieds section (and gird your servers for the incoming traffic).

jenz58 · 3 May 2005, 11:21 am

...and I thought this one was good

Messages devoid of content: Posts like 50 lines of the letter "J", arrows pointing at the Personal of The Day (there is a Fark Personals Forum if you wish to make comments), "First Post", "who cares", "why was my post deleted", off-topic posts, threadjacking, complaining about links, unedited non-original images in Photoshop threads, repeated filter evasion, and trolling (see below).
A note on off-topic posts: There are four Forums provided for off topic chatter and questions: Fark Forum, TotalFark Forum, Fark Personals Forum, and Fark Photoshop Forum. Questions/advice about Photoshops should be confined to the Photoshop Forum. Attention whoring should be confined to the Personals forum. Intentionally posting off-topic or trying to derail a thread ("threadjacking") is very seriously frowned upon

jenz58 · 3 May 2005, 11:27 am

I think having an ignore option is good...if no one can see a repeat offender who annoys them then that person will soon get bored by the late of response...

I actually think that our problem people have had it very easy in here but at least we've given them the option of tidying up their act .... but maybe at a great cost to the forum...

I think the ones who cries censorship once more, after a thread has been withdrawn, will be the one to go first in my opinion...they are only insighting others

kustomkool · 3 May 2005, 12:20 pm

lets get back to strickly VWs and leave all other topics for other forums.

amazer · 3 May 2005, 1:11 pm

There's a way to fix it. Any controversial posts with the word "YOU" in them get removed. Just leave the ones with "I THINK" "MY OPINION IS" as soon as someone says "YOUR OPINION" it gets chopped. Probably over simplifying it but you get my drift.

A strictly VW site to me would be boring. And as for bad attitude being killed off, i think that would suck. I think that sledging threads should be killed from there as well as anywhere across the forum. Just leave it there for the more explicit topics (which arent causing any problems, there is no trouble in those).

72TWINCAB · 3 May 2005, 2:25 pm

Why do people take everything so seriously.......

We all drive Vee Dubs and should be laid back.

If I see something I don't like on the forum I don't continue to read it and look for something that does interest me. There is plenty of good reading on the forum so embrace it.

This thread was a real eye opener as everything seemed pretty cool to me.

Come on people stop your whinging and start posting good VW stuff.

PS: Bad attitude is cool. Keep it.

Boozer · 3 May 2005, 3:11 pm

$2.63 homebrand baja wrote:
Boozer wrote:4. I think moderator do need to take more of a active stance, earlier it wasn't needed and there was peace and harmony and then the misfits like me and KK and $2.63 and the rest of the mob showed up. *SPLAT!* The trick will be to not become tyrannical and nasty with the moderator stuff.
:vader leave me out of this, B4 BA I posted BS but would routinely delete the most offensive stuff. I haven't been censored yet, and worked out, early on, the ebb and flow of the place. I have only really been overly nasty to one member because he smelt like cow poo and deserved it.
I will not be labled a misfit, nor be accused of having any form of mob mentality.
I read and appreciate a lot of the tekkie stuff,etc, just don't post crap in there as it's not the done thing.
Thanks to BA I can say with confidence in comparison to some of the frootloops in here I am quite beige :puke
Perverts :duh

Sorry $2.63, I didn't mean you were offensive or anything just that along with other's (myself included) we are not "normal" as such. No offense was intended, I was kinda tired at the time and your name was the only one I could think of at the time.:thumb

This issue is getting hard. There is no simple answer as I can see as everyone thinks something different should be done. I can't think of anything else to say, but if this place goes I don't know what I'm gonna do.

amazer · 3 May 2005, 3:22 pm

Make another area where NO non volkswagen talk is allowed?

excuse me if its been sugested, I dont want to read the middle 4 pages.

VWENVY · 3 May 2005, 3:28 pm

foxy_fuchsia wrote:All I can say is ***ANGER MANAGEMENT!!***

no need to yell!

foxy_fuchsia · 3 May 2005, 10:56 pm

oops this is the internet and 'caps' mean yelling lol...I simply wanted to make that statement bold, I wasn't yelling!! I promise!! :kiss

vanderaj · 4 May 2005, 2:47 am

Although I love a good vent, do we reckon this thread has had enough airing for now?

Andrew

frenzix · 4 May 2005, 2:49 am

yep

BenettonVW · 4 May 2005, 8:38 pm

Well, let me finish this thread off then.

There has been some very valid points.

Firstly, thankyou to ALL for your input. Spook, you know my opinion of you, and it is definitely one of respect. A lot of people on this site no longer know who you are, but mate, for us old skoolers, we know what you are like, and to me thats not bad at all, but only cause of our hours of conversations making us know each other quite well. I still look forward to our first beer mate. Thanks for your input.

Secondly, it was unfortunate that this topic was side-tracked a few times, and I thank the members that tried to maintain the focus of the topic. One thing I found interesting was the minority of traditional trouble makers posting on the actual topic itself, and all the 'positive' type of people, or 'good apples' posted, urging that the forum not shut down. The 'bad apples' weren't heard of.
No meaning. Just interesting.

Lastly, the suggestions that have been made are quite good, and I notice that Andrew has already implemented some of those. Thanks Andrew, and we do appreciate your work around here. The post counts are gone, and I will be posting suggestions for mods soon, as, if we are going to need some 'firmer' policing of some things, we need more mods. There is a fair bit of responsibilty that goes with it, which some of you may not take seriously, but I need you to as if there is such things like lawsuits and so on, then it is my ass on the line again too. You'll have your chance to put your hand up..

I hope this can be a positive place. Thats why it was built. Thats why people used to come here. Thats why I come here.

Thats why I still want to come here.

Doug Sweetman · 5 May 2005, 11:20 am

Best post I've read all day.

Its a sad sad day when the man responsible for creating the best online vw resource in Oz (arguably one of the best in the world) becomes so disillusioned with it that he considers leaving.

I'll fully support whatever changes you need to make to keep this place a rollin along. I'm not a heavy poster (just cracked a thousand, but it took me two and a half years) but there is so many informative posts and interesting and knowledagable people on here that its a daily routine for me to waste an hour or so every day trolling whats going on in here.

Cheers