Type3 auto into an early Beetle

For those interested-I started this yesterday. Stripped everything from the pan yesterday afternoon and made a measuring jig to keep a check on the alignment of the frame horns during the work.I made a solid bar to take the place of the original bellhousing mounting bracket to keep the horns together and put braces up to the shock towers. Finished the IRS conversions today using some I cut from a Beetle pan.Will make up a jig next weekend to keep the lower engine mounting holes of the bellhousing in the correct position in relation to the frame horns.Will need this to locate the auto in the exact original position so the engine fits the engine bay correctly. I have taken plenty of pics so far and will put some up soon.

I thought the Type 3 auto was too wide?

I think you have to cut some of the horns and then re-inforce it.
Must dig out the pics of my Brother's race beetle.
His was done by CBB at Penrith.
Did you get a Good Box? My brother had a lot of trouble getting a good one, was usually the diff section that was
stuffed.
Also do you know how much power they can handle?
I thought on shop talk forums they said up to 150 H.P.

When I cut the horns to clear-there was not enough left to strengthen properly.Have cut them off completely and am using another set and will mount them wider apart to allow trans to fit in and then weld them in and reinforce.Have just finished cutting a section from the torsion bar tube each side of the centre anchor and welding in some flat plate-this allows the trans to come forward another 20mm to try and get the motor to fit the engine bay better.The trans came from a car that was going-but intend to get it overhauled and get bigger clutch packs and a high stall convertor.From my research I have found that the diff is the strongest part-supposedly bulletproof.The diff sits in it's own cast iron housing inside the aluminium diff housing.Because I'm running a big Type4 motor-will need all the usual beef up stuff that gets done to all auto's.Hope you find the pics of your brothers-always good to see what other people have done which is good for ideas.

I thought the box was too long so you have to cut the torsion bar tubes etc

id like to see some pics of this one please

To replace those lost-in the first one you will see where the original frame horn bolts went.

To let you know if you get the spacer in the clutch pack ground down you can fit 1 more clutch in, allowing you to hall more ass .You will also find the nose on the converter will leak ( most do ) the trick is to fit two seals the cast iron section of the trans , when your there and the box is apart , get hold of holden diff breathers ( or from a 4x4 ) and run these high up the fire wall out of the way from road grime , the rubber ones go hard and seal up ,forming pressure in the housing and pissing oil out .I have been playing with an hydratrak from a HSV holden to fit the type three auto diff .

seagull

Thanks Seagull-knew about the converter seals but not the breathers-will do that while it's apart.Sat it up between the horns last night,just a small amount of clearancing now.Better fit between the hornsthough.I am going to cut the arse out of a wreck I have,leaving just the skeleton around the engine bay seal area and and the bodywork above the centre torsion bar tube.This should be helpful in getting it all to fit and lined up.I have ordered the spring shackle bushes like you use,the Valiant ones are too stiff and too big.I have a 1600TP that can be slipped in to line it all up.I still can't get my head around why they made the output flanges sit 35mm higher on an auto compared to the manual box.Do you have any issues with this for you conversions.It seems that in a standard Type3 Auto, that the CV joints would be always working at much greater angles than a manual box.

Seagull-this is what I mean-the bellhousing is in exactly the same position as a manual box and the back has to come down only a very small amount-see how far the output flanges are above the frame horns.I have made my frame horns
about 30mm lower than standard-but even B4 I cut them-they were about 60mm above the horns.There is no way you have to flatten them when doing the IRS conversion like when using a manual box. nn[ Edited on 1-7-2005 by nbturbo ]

Only had this afternoon to work on it-didn't get too far.Cut the arse out of a wreck to check for clearance of the motor.Had to cut the inside bit of the horns-the lip that was used to spot weld the 2 halves together.I cut 30mm each side and will weld back in some flat bar.The whole thing sits in perfectly now,with the motor having an even gap around the seal lips.Because I cut the lips off the inside of the horns,it is real easy now to get the trans in and out.This will be good if it has to come out once the body is back on.I will have to cut a small section from the body below the back seat to clear the hump at the front of the trans.Should be able to make it a removeable panel,which will help to adjust the front band as well.
Will spend some nights this week to fab up the mounts.

Another day and a half on the job.It's finally in position with all the mounts made and the gearchange cable fitted and clearanced.Have just got to patch some holes I cut on the inside of the forks for some more clearance and around where the cable goes into the pan.Had to modify the bracket that supports the cable at the trans to give the cable some clearance against the pan.Next weekend will only have to weld the patches and fit the gearchange lever,and it will be all over.Need to run a 10mm and 8mm fuel pipe for the fuel injection,then it can be blasted and painted.Should have the body back next weekend,so it's all finally coming together.nn[ Edited on 17-7-2005 by nbturbo ]

Had to go back to using Valiant mounts so I could get them far enough forward to clear the the engine fan shroud.Will get some new mounts and tidy up the brackets B4 painting.Used the Toyota spring shackle rubbers for the front one with a 12mm X 8.8 bolt.

Looking Good NB, Glad to see it's all come together well.
Cheers

Yeah, I agree. Top work! Might consider an auto in front of a Sooby EJ20T if they are able to be toughened as good as what you say...

This is a GREAT project, great work. Will the drive plate of the Type 4 engine fit up to the Type 3 torque converter ????

Does the type 4 engine have a cut out below the drive plate so you can get access to the 3 bolts on the torque convertor ???

Will u use the stock Type 3 axles are they longe enough

just posing some questions in case you hadnt thought about some of the issues but it looks like your solving them

more pics please

Yeah Dave the PCD is the same for the 3 mounting bolts.I haven't put the 2 together yet,but the auto has a cut out at the bottom to get at the bolts,and if there isn't enough room there,can use the hole in the crankcase above the top bellhousing bolt.Checked the Type3 drive shafts and look good for fitting.I have an auto and drive shafts from a Kombi as well,so may even be able to use these shafts and CV's.For anybody contemplating an auto conversion into a Beetle and wanting to keep the engine in the original location-think long and hard.It's been a real head fxxk trying to squeeze it all in.If you were doing a buggy or Baja and could have the motor a few inches further back,then it would be fairly straight forward,but still heavy going.If you could fab up a cage and get rid of the frame horns all together,even easier.

Not much progress-visitors on the week end.Got into it last night again.Have completely finished the left hand side,with a relief cut into it where the cable goes into the pan.Have drilled a big enough hole so that the cable will not hit under hard accelleration(will use a big blanking grommet with hole cut in it) Where I cut the side out of the frame horns,I have welded in gussets out of 3mm plate,B4 closing them up.Ended up cutting the original fuel and heater cable tubes off completely.Will be making a heater system using electric fans,and using 2 new bigger fuel lines anyhow.nn[ Edited on 26-7-2005 by nbturbo ]

have you looked at shorting or if you have to shorten the trailing or swing arms as well

yes it would be easier to fit into a buggy great work making it fit a bug

have you looked at shorting or if you have to shorten the trailing or swing arms as well

yes it would be easier to fit into a buggy great work making it fit a bug

No Dave-at this stage I think all the type3 stuff fits-don't have to shorten anything.Will pull all the torsion bars,spring plates and trailing arms from the pan I have already converted and restored(it is all Type3 stuff) will just have to swap the drive shafts for the auto ones.This pic is of the other frame horn that I have just finished and also ground down all welds and polished.

Finished at last at the back end-welded up the holes where the heater cable tubes came from,welded a couple more gussets where the frame horns attach to the torsion bar tubes and made and welded the small brackets that hold the brake pipe unions to the pan.Cut all the unused pipes from in the tunnel-( had to cut an access hole in the pan near the back-will weld it back after I have put the new fuel lines in)2 heater tubes,original fuel line and the clutch cable tube. Fitted the gear change lever and the covers.Will have to fab up something to go up under the gear lever cover to glue the carpet to.Gear change is all in and adjusted-works OK.

Fitted up the Type3 pedal assembly last night.The 2 holes that attach it to the floor just by the throttle pedal were stripped,so had to weld them up and rethread them-a simple job that took ages.Cut the original battery hold down bracket of and fabbed up a new one to hold the battery like modern cars-using the lugs around the base of the battery.Found the clamp in a 73 Bug I wrecked recently-they all must use this set up.Run my first fuel line thru the tunnel(8mm one first) and bought it thru the original hole at the front and alongside the throttle tube at the rear.Put some thick heat shrink on where it goes under the pedal shaft.I silver soldered it to the hand brake tube where it goes past the access hole I cut. Have put the 10mm one on the opposite side at the rear, right where I can mount the high pressure FI pump.

I have to say, that is quite impressive.nn[ Edited on 3-8-2005 by pete wood ]

Thanks Pete-finished the fuel lines and mounted the FI pump alongside the trans.Will shorten both fuel lines and flare the ends when I pull the auto out for the last time this weekend-pan is going in Monday for a blast and paint.Silver soldered the 10mm supply line to the hand brake lines inside the tunnel and then welded the hole up.Have bought the 10mm pipe out the side of the frame at the front and made up an aluminium bracket to stop it flexing.My low pressure feed pump is mounted on the left hand side of the front beam and will feed into the 10mm pipe. The 8mm pipe coming out the original hole is for the fuel return.

One after I welded up the hole and one of the auto from underneath- it doesn't hang down below the pan-just that the rear cross brace is a little lower-but still plenty of ground clearance.

very neat job - I've often wondered how much work is involved in doing this and now I know.... its shitloads 🙂

Great pics and story....
Have spoken to 2 people who have type 3 autos in Beetles in the USA - one said it was bloody hard, the other one [who had a metal worker welder do the job] said it was easy..???
Its too bloody hard for this black duck....
Have You thought about a removeable rear valance ?
It makes pulling the engine so easy... You can take the engine out with all wheels sitting on the ground....
Best of Luck

Lee Noonan 68AutoBug

Doug Sweetman wrote:very neat job - I've often wondered how much work is involved in doing this and now I know.... its shitloads 🙂

Lee, I couldn't find any body who had done it B4 I started this to have a chat.B4 my computer crashed,I used to visit a site about auto stick Bugs,that you also used to visit,but can't remember it's name.Do you still go there? Is that where you found the 2 blokes you mentioned? Yes,thought about the removeable rear panel-about a month after I had just finished welding in the new one,which I really welded in-didn't expect it to ever have to come out again.With the auto,I reckon I can remove the rear brace,and it will swing down real low pivoting on the front mount,which will aid in getting the motor hooked up easier,then just jack the whole lot up to fit the rear brace.

a subaru fitment made easy

2

while your there get a EH / HR sway bar and mount under there , pick ups for the rods of your arms , just close your eyes and think about itnn[ Edited on 7-8-2005 by seagull ]

Had my eyes closed for a while-still don't see anything.Been a few years since I have done any work on one of those.Does it hook into the 2 holes in the lower shocker mount???

I post a photo for you in the next day or so .

Thanks.

Come on Neil-pics please.

How about the pics Neil?????

Seagull Neil-what happened to the pics?????????nn[ Edited on 24-9-2005 by nbturbo ]

shit I get on to it , sorry

I'm following this thread with great interest, been wanting to do this conversion myself (into my manx) for years. I've got 4 automatic boxes etc sitting in my shipping container just waiting for me to get couragous and attack my floorpan. Was thinking of supporting the gearbox with a frame from on top.

Sorry I forgot this in my first post, If you want to know how the trike buiders attack the problem check out http://www.dingbobtrikes.com/trikeframe_03SA_2.htm .Also I don't know if this the right site mentioned by nbturbo about autostickshift beetles but here it is anyway http://www.vwar.org/

Manx-if you do it like mine and it's in a buggy-you don't have the issue of trying to get the motor to fit properly in the engine bay so it seals up.You don't have to worry about the correct height either-just have to get it central.If you had a decent roll bar set up-you could fabricate something like Seagull does on his trikes and do away with the frame horns altogether.I wanted mine to look like a Factory set up from the outside as much as possible.Thanks for those links-they are good.Want to build a Trike one day with the motor up front like a normal bike-the blokes building the trikes will be very handy.There are a couple more pics in Members rides under Ovals progress.

Here is a '57 Oval I've been trying to get for the past 12 months. Unfortunately no progress yet.

as is

this is the only real damage to the body apart from stone chips to the insides of the guards "star fracturing" the paint on the outsides

sorry here's the photo

The sunvisor and centre gauges in the dash were fitted by the dealer when purchased. There is also a hubcap style toolkit (unsighted).

Sorry I'm have trouble with the size of my photos

Not much progress of late-got the body back on with motor and trans bolted up-everything fitted perfectly.Trans is in Adelaide at the moment getting overhauled and beefed up.Convertor has been modified and the front clutch hub is being machined for an extra plate.Will be another fortnight until finished.Doesn't look like I will be able to run an external cooler-the trans doesn't have any ports in the lubrication circuit to "T" off for a cooler.Have had all the new mounts,shock tower braces and dipstick tube coated in a gold passivated finish to look a bit flasher than being painted.

[ Edited on 29-3-2006 by nbturbo ]

Looks great

Any progress?
Looking to do something similar to my 62 ragtop with type 4 turbo.

Hermann

You must be Physic-going to Adeaide this weekend to pick the trans up-has had a full rebuild and some beef up mods done.Will get stuck into the refit next week.Still have to fit a kickdown switch and find a vacuum supply for the modulator.Will keep you posted.

At last-fired the motor today and have had the car move in both directions.still need to add a little more trans fluid.Got a small fuel leak issue at the "T" piece I made between the 2 carbies.Have to get a couple fittings in the morning and can then drive it.
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This is set up as a top mount , it can be fliped up side down .I be doing this to the 60ie bug

This would be the cheapest mod to your bug to make it hold the road .The units from a hr holden front .Most modern cars have units fitted

Find a new ford in a car park and have a look under it

Thanks Neil-have already put that job on the 'to do' list-still have to round up a good one for the front.

Pulled the shifter assembly out again and pulled the lever out.When I put the lever into "Park",it was too far forward and a pain to to get at-so I applied some heat and bent it so that it now sits vertical in "park" and is real easy to use.Must be good steel,because it didn't tarnish with the heat,so just polished on the buff and it looks like chrome.
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I have a shift lock system you can make for this , works off the alarm

How's this project going these days?

I have been driving it now for about 18 months.It's everything I hoped it would be.Had a lot of trouble with the fuel injection which took a couple of months to sort out.I put it on the road around September 07 and haven't had to repair,adjust,bend or modify anything.It has a slight weep from the auto pan gasket which is a cork type.I will make a new one from gasket material when I change the oil and check the band adjustments(probably won't need doing for at least 12 months) I have had it on the Drag Strip and changed gears manually.Had trouble working out when to change up just B4 it hit the rev limiter.Too busy to watch the Tacho.I am now definately going Auto in my Drag Car-I am in the middle of modifying it to fit a Kombi auto.Much better diff ratio than the Type 3 auto.

For Dave-VW54.Good for a read.

Thanks Gary

Some great info there

Hi guys.
I signed up last night and wrote a big long post on here about your conversion, which I believe is awesome by the way, however it didn't seem topmost. Maybe it was too long?
Anyway, in short, I did the same conversion about 30 years ago when I was about 19 years old. My conversion didn't quite have the finish of yours unfortunately, but worked very well none the less.
What I really like about the way you did yours was the mounting bracket and the widened tuning forks.
With mine, my conversion to IRS was done without a jig or similar, and I just used a spirit level on the wheels until I had the camber I wanted, and then welded the brackets in place, and the engine mount, being an overhead mount, was a piece of tube fitted to the bodywork and bolted with plates either side of the inner wheel wells. Then another piece of tube welded from the outer plate to the shocky tower. I removed the tuning forks altogether. That gas axe and grinder was working overtime on mine.
Where you cut the square access hole behind the seat, I just removed the whole panel, which wasn't very good for sound proofing, but I was more about street racing in Newcastle back in the day, so a bit of noise didn't bother me, and at 19 years old, neither did the smells from a hot engine or the fear of fire. We did some silly things back then.
I often wonder if my old brown bug is still out there. It was distinctive as I had wheels with a very large offset and I wasn't a fan of fiberglass flared front guards so I cut the front guards off just in from where they bolt to the bodywork and moved the whole guard out 2". This gave it a very wide look as the headlights were wider by 4" as well because of the technique. I used fiberglass flared rear guards, although I still had to increase the flare to cover the rear wheels. The technique used on the front was much handed on the back due to the angle the guard meets the bodywork on the rear guards.
Anyway, I just wanted to say I really like your work. The box mount in particular is a great design. Unfortunately taking lots of pictures wanted a priority to a young guy who was more interested in racing than anything else, and FaceTime meant actually standing in front of someone in 1982, text was written in books and forums was where people gathered. I might have one front one pic I took at work if your interested in the low wide look of the front guards however.
I now work as an engineering teacher working with FSAE Uni students in the CAD/CAM/CNC, teaching them how to design race parts for manufacture and not just cool looking, but impractical 3D models.
Greig

Here's a question for you about your conversion.
Did you find it would sometimes have trouble deciding which gear to select.
I knew very little about auto's back when I did mine, and it would hunt gears around 60kph which was painful around town. I played wi vacuum lines etc but it still wasn't perfect. As I got older I had more understanding but it's always bugged me that I never sorted it completely.
It finally dumped a heap of trans fluid one day, and I was told by an "expert" it was because they trans was weak and couldn't handle the power of the engines I was running. I sold the car after that and after spending thousands of dollars on my obsession, and bought a Z1 Kawasaki, moved to QLD not long after and haven't owned a dak dak since.
Originally I had built a beach buggy when I was 13, and bought an engine off a guy called Wes Shadlow. He had a backyard VW business in Kurri Kurri and raced off road buggies with a guy called Neil. Their buggy was called Shadrock. I remember as a young guy in the late 70's going their with my dad and seeing Karmann Ghia's and the like and really falling in love with VW's. He had bought a Kombi at one stage that had a turbo corvair flat six that he and Neil had bought for the engine. They were going to put it in a buggy.
After a few years of playing with my buggy and amassing heaps of parts, it was a natural progression to build a VW as my first road car. I bought the car I eventually converted to auto from a guy who had just built a really tough 1835cc through Wes which was a rocket. I went through 4 engines, 7 diffs and a gearbox before going to the auto........lol........ I was always working on it. I could finish work on a Friday afternoon, come home, drop the engine, swap out the trans, engine back in and out racing someone that night. We had an A-frame that I would run a sling under the rear bumper mounts, drop the engine, then using a wire pulley on the sling, lift the rear of the car to get the engine out. Those were the days!!!
Anyway, I didn't mean to hijack your thread. You've done an amazing job!!!!...... Racing it brought back some great memories. Thanks for that.
Greig

Sorry about some of the spelling or strange sentences. I was using my Ipad which obviously has spell check turned on.....doh
I'll stick with the laptop in future.
Greig

Yes Greg,a very long post. I had the auto fully overhauled with the main pump pressure boosted. It has never had any gear change issues when driven as an auto. I sometimes have issues when driving it manually at the drags- I hit the rev limiter about the same time as I shift it,it then has trouble shifting up. I tried to build it so that it resembled a standard car- so the body could be lifted if needed like a standard Beetle. It has proved to be strong enough because I have belted it many times at the drags with no faults appearing. It's an absolute pleasure to drive with power the engine puts out. Stop light starts are awesome.

What engine are you running?
The conversion I did was from a station wagon. Is there much difference between kombi's and the wagon style auto? I'm thinking seriously about doing another VW. I've looked at a couple of different projects and had thought about doing a clubman, but I really like the idea of a low, chop top, auto VW with a mild engine to start with and and something hotter later on. I think I'd like to run nitrous later for the occasional run down the strip. Our street tyred but stretched swing arm Hayabusa ran 8.23 with a dry shot( about 90hp), and I'm a bit of a nitrous fan.
What trans would you recommend to run and what stall can you achieve with a modified converter.
Do you know if you can modify the valve body to run a transbrake?

Greig

Good day Greig-I have a fuel injected 2.7 lt Type 4 in the Oval with a Type3 auto. The Type3 use an alloy diff housing with a 003 auto.Kombis had cast iron diff housings with 003 and 010 autos. The 003 auto will do fine for any street car with a fairly stout engine. The 010 auto has larger diameter clutch packs and 4 gears in the gear set instead of 3 in the 003. The 010 can be built to handle really big horsepower engines. From memory my Oval has a 3.23 final drive and my Drag car with the 010 auto is 4.3 with much larger gear set.

Unbelievable-still driving it,still Drag Racing it and still having issues with the Haltec ECU.Still haven't had to do anything to it as far as adjustments/modifying/bending or any failures.Have changed the engine oil and filter a couple of times and it still drives like a dream.

great to hear these conversions working out

Been giving it plenty of seat time lately-in fact it's the daily driver for a while-it is still awesome to drive.Bought some new wheels for it after 8 years.Went from a 17x7 to a 17x7.5 up front(can still use same tyres- 225/45) and went from 17x8 to a 19x8.5 (255/40) at the back.Really upped the final drive gearing with the new wheels.

Can't believe it's been about 14 years since I started this.I have always had trouble starting it.I used to isolate the battery when it was not being used.Reckon that was causing trouble with the ECU losing something.I now never isolate it,but use a trickle charger.It starts way better,but sometimes still does a lock up while cranking.The Bloke who sorted my Drag Car reckons he can fix it.I am using a Hall Effect dizzy which is the size of a 009.He thinks that it is shooting a spark back to the next post while its coming up to the correct one which it will fire up.He is 2 hours away,and I haven't got it there yet.Bought an Oval horn button clock for it and just fitted it.Good quality.