Is unleaded fuel ok to use in a beetle motor?
I have been using it for the past month in my 1776 without any noticable changes to the motor (heaps more grunt though).
Aren't the valve seats hardened in the factory? (therefore lead free fuel is ok to use).
Purple Martin ·
I heard about that recently (either here or on another forum) so I switched to PULP in my 2L Kombi and it seems to run fine. I'm sure an "expert" answer will be posted soon!
this has been discussed to death but we will keep on telling people to keep VW's alive.
You can do a search as well
ALL VWs since 1967 came with hardened valve seats.
Leaded petrol has not been sold in the USA for approx 15 + years.
You will do NO damage with ULP.
If you run stock compression <8:1 you can run ULP
> 8:1 CR and i would strongly suggest PULP
If you run LRP i will NEVER talk to you again and i will personally come around and take your VW off you 😀
Next question?
vdbleu2002 ·
isn't LRP just PULP but with some sort or additive?? So we could use it with no ill effects???
Menangler ·
PULP = Premium Unleaded Petrol
LRP = Shit 😀
Craig Torrens ·
Dave, would you suggest any additives with PULP.
vdbleu2002 ·
Dave
what evidence have you got to back up LRP is shit.
or is it here say??
Bug ·
:sandrine
My son works at a garage he was saying that LRP is just PUL with valve master &
other lead suppliments & dyes to make it look red like SUPER.
BUG (o\|/o)
Tazzielittle ·
I run vortex in the 1915....
It has an upper cyl lube in it....
I club member has a 1641 stan.. and he was told to use an upper cyl lube in it..
plus its sposed to higher octane....
i'm no Ex either but hey....
When i was running PULP it pinged....
Now it dont and its got better fuel econ...
:thumb:thumb
Woozy ·
LRP ....... IS ........ just ULP with additives. It is the additives which screw engines up (dunno why) but you will get EXCESSIVE carbon buildup and then you will need to pull plug's heads whatever else to clean it and fix it.
Upper cyl lube cannot hurt, i ran redline then something else (i forget what) with ULP in my 1600tp after using 3 tanks of LRP and having to fix stuff up. Everything ran fine with NO problem's (and i am not gentle with my engines)
I have been running PULP ever since i got the 1835 without any additives as i know the heads are ready for ULP.
Best advice is ALWAYS use PULP and nothing else and if you dont know if your heads are ready for ULP then add some upper cyl lube just to be on the safe side.
nobody should use LRP for anything, different petrol Companies use different additives which may not be compatibale, most use Mangenese as a component & this can leave reddish rust- like deposit which can cake up your combustion chamber & spark plugs. you should only use ULP or PULP depending on the Octane requirement of your car, with a reputable additive like Flashlube which was originally developed to lubricate valves & seats on cars running LPG, which is a "dry fuel" & therefore even worse than ULP. When ULP came out my wife & I were running 2 1964 Humber Supersnipes as daily drivers which DO NOT have hardened valve seats ,mine doing 19000km much at high speed & Jenny's 10000km per year, I decided to use this as a test & ran mine on ULP + Flashlube & Jenny's just on ULP with no additive, after 4 years there was no change in Jenny's valve clearances.
High revs & heat are the main cause of valve seat recession & as the VW a/c motor is not normally a high revving motor, it should be able to use just ULP with no additive.
we have never put anything but ULP in the Kombi
is that enough??
Roukis ·
I just got in to work - no pc at home.
Thank you all so much for your great responses. I'm happy to hear that LRP is crap and will use ULP. I don't think I will use the PULP cause I don't know what compression my motor has.
Hey is Cylinder lube just added into your fuel tank like those Whynns products??
eric ·
Generally all engines with Alloy cylinder heads regardless of when they are made should be able to run unleaded petrol with no ill-effect since engines with alloy heads have to have hardened valve seats anyway.
teamfaulkner ·
Okay, so for the newbies like me, having read the posts, and the longer linked discussion:
1. The lubricating element of "leaded" is not an issue for VWs so unleaded is fine 🙂.
2. But the non-Fuel injection raises questions about the octane rating - which is linked directly to potential engine damage :o
3. We're not sure about the amount of additives in fuel (which lowers the octane raiting) 🙁 - so best to go with the higher octane rated fuel that you can :thumb
This right?
Peter
[Edited on 27-2-2003 by teamfaulkner]
kombikim ·
Alloy heads go back to the '20s it is best not to assume that a pre mid 80's car has hardened valve seats in either a cast iron or alloy head, if you can't find out for a fact, then it is a safe & cheap bet to use an additive, Flashlube is used at 1ml per litre & costs about $20 a litre, beware of the really expensive highly visible additives that are around that can cost up to $10.00 a tank
kombikim ·
Peter,
the additives do not affect the octane rating, although there are aditives you can get to raise it. It is best to use the LOWEST octane rating your car will run on (and much cheaper) use normal unleaded, find a hill & put the engine under a bit of load going up it, gradually putting you foot to the floor if it starts making a pinging (clattering) sound & your timing is right then you will have to use Premium unleaded, a standard Kombi in correct tune will only need normal unleaded as it has a low compression ratio. Octane requirements are determined by the compression ratio & combustion chamber design
eric ·
kombikim wrote:Alloy heads go back to the '20s
Actually they didn't even start adding lead to petrol until the 1930s, many cars from before the 1930s were actually built to run on lead free petrol.
it is best not to assume that a pre mid 80's car has hardened valve seats in either a cast iron or alloy head,
It is not possible for an Aluminium or magnesium cylinder head not to have hardened valve seats, given the soft nature of those metals, Iron heads aren't as soft so hardened valve seats weren't considered necessary for leaded petrol, hence pre 80s iron heads often don't feature hardened seats but all alloy heads have hardened seats because it is absolutely necessary for them to have hardened seats
72TWINCAB ·
After reading everyone’s opinion on this topic I decided to check with my mechanic at Manx Buggies @ Coopers Plains, Brisbane of his thoughts on the ULP vs LRP debate. He advised that his advice from VW is that unless you have a Cat Converter you should only use LRP.
I also sent an e-mail to Kruzinwagon at Kingswood, Sydney. This was their thought on the subject.
"Lets clarify something here first, Expert, hahahaha, we are Enthusiast here, not experts. We play with them all day everyday, we actually reconstruct buses here bit by bit, everyday, and we think we know them pretty well now days, but I don’t think we are experts, we don’t know everything there is to know about Volkswagens and their workings. Thanks for the prase though. To the Fuel problem though.............
Well this new fuel is still all a bit new and knowing the end result of anything it does to the motors is difficult unless some one is doing a fair dinkum test, using one motor for ULP and one for LRP and stripping them down after maybe 20k klm at a time. I am no real expert on that subject and that makes it hard to pass an honest and accurate opinion.
Consider this though, ULP does require a CAT converter, (that’s actually the Law. EPA) as it is more cancerous than LRP or even leaded fuel that’s why CATs are required by law on new Vehicles and its a large fine if you are caught without one.
ULP does make the motors run hotter, we have noticed, after talking with customers about the use of ULP in their buses. We actually don’t recommend the use of the ULP to our customers with reconditioned motors, only because we haven’t tested it 100% as yet, and because of the legality side of the pollution laws, and its harmful without a Cat. I don’t feel I have the right to advise someone to use something that could harm them or their family. You know that rotten egg gas you smell behind a new car when it first starts up.. Don’t breathe it in, especially your kids, the CAT is not at operating temp, so it’s not burning off the poisonous gas, but emitting into the atmosphere.
That Ethanol they have been caught adding to the fuels will cause dropped valve seats, as it will over heat the heads and will perish the fuel lines very quickly, we have noted that quite often.
See we don’t really know if it’s the fuels or the ethanol that blowing the heads to bits, at this point in time.
In saying all of that.. We have been testing one of our own 2ltr Buses on the ULP, but we haven’t stripped the motor as yet and it hasn’t done very many miles/kilometers to date, so we don’t really know the end result. We are filling this bus from the same Mobil service station only, all the time and it drives several hundred K's a week. If it becomes noisy by 20k K's we'll pull it down and check it out, if its still sounds and responds Okay, we'll have another think about it then.
We also have a 1600 bus that we are running on Lead Replacement and are doing the same sort of test, filling at another Service Station, and using that one every time, for the LRP.
So.........Bill, so much for our expertise, But I can not give you a 100% honest, accurate opinion just yet. I can speculate all day, and tell you all sorts versions of things I have read in Magazines, but that wouldn’t be Honest and accurate, as an expert would tell it.
Sorry Bill for not making it black and white, and thank you for considering us experts..
Cheers Kimm Garland."
Robo ·
I have been worried as to what fuel I can safely run my Kombi on, I dont wish this to be interpreted as any attack on anyones opinion, I just thought that the manufacturer (factory) should have the best knowledge and advice, so I Emailed Volkswagen, and asked them, this is a copy of the letter I recieved!
Dear Miss White,
Thank you for your resent correspondence regarding unleaded fuel for
your 1977 Kombi microbus.
The use of standard unleaded fuel has the potenial to cause long term engine
damage with your vehicle.
It is recommonded that you continue to use leaded or lead replacement fuel
in your vehicle.
Volkswagen Group Australia, in conjunction with our dealer network, remain
committed to ensuring our
customers receive the highest levels of service and support. I assure you
that Volkswagen Australia's
commitment extends to ensuring both quality and service levels remain
commensurate with the prestige
and quality of the Volkswagen product.
Sean Quigley
Technical Support Specialist
VOLKSWAGEN Group Australia
Unit 5/476 Gardeners Road
Alexandria NSW 2015
I have been driving the SAME VW for over 30 years, I have owned old Holdens and 3 LPG powered vehicles (including my wife's current vehicle), and have studied fuels for many years.
The USA has had unleaded fuels for more than 15 years and do not have LRP - all their VWs have to run on unleaded or stay in the garage! That's ALL aircooled VWs, including the pre-65 engine with "softer" valve seats (read on).
We lost Lead in fuels 2-3 years ago and many VWs here (including mine) have run on unleaded since that time with no ill effects.
The UK has just lost lead in their fuels and a lot of VW owner's are jumpy because they are getting mixed messages about the leaded/unleaded issue.
Here's a a brief ouline of what I know about fuels and the VW engine:
1. Tetra Ethyl Lead (TEL) in fuels did three things - increased the octane number, provided protection against Valve Seat Recession (VSR) and provided some lubrication to valve stems.
2. The VW engine does NOT need lead in fuel, for any of the reasons above - it has hardened valve seats (even the early bugs less hard seats are still HARD), the bronze alloy valve guides don't need TEL lubrication, and the octane requirement is met with normal unleaded petrol (91 RON Octane).
3. LRP is similar to PULP but has (in Australia) an additive called Methylcyclopentadienyl Manganese Tricarbonyl (MMT). This replaced the VSR protection that TEL used to provide. But it's not as effective, and it has less of a residual effect compared to TEL (Source: - BP and Shell Technical Advisory Service), so if your engine NEEDS VSR protection, then you must use LRP all the time. Only cars with "soft" cast iron heads need VSR protection - the VW engine does NOT need LRP. Because the VW engine runs hotter than it's water cooled cousins, it causes the MMT in LRP to foul plugs, causing hard starting and rough running. DON'T use LRP in an aircooled VW engine.
4. Oxygenates in fuels cause problems for carburetted cars. Adding Ethanol or Methyl Tertiary Butyl Ether (MTBE) to petrol reduces the amount of "fuel" in the fuel, since they contain used oxygen, but in small quanities, they can have a beneficial effect on the envionment and help raise the octane number of the fuel (Ethanol is about 129 RON octane and MTBE is about 116 RON octane). Modern computer equiped cars cope with these fuels by richening the mixture on the run, but aircooled VWs which HAVE to run on these fuels will need a larger main jet, otherwise the engine will run lean and hot. E10 (10% ethanol) petrol is available in the eastern states, and some stations around Sydney have been adding up to 20% ethanol to petrol and not telling the motorist - the VW engine will REALLY suffer if run on these fuels. WA and SA have no ehtanol in their fuels - it's outlawed. Woolworths PetrolPlus fuel contains up to 7% MTBE. WA and SA have outlawed the used of MTBE in their fuels.
Quote from the post above:
>ULP does require a CAT converter, (that's actually the Law. EPA) as it is more cancerous than LRP or even leaded fuel that's why CATs are required by law on new Vehicles and its a large fine if you are caught without one.
Oh please - it's the other way around. Catalytic converters were developed to help clean the exhaust of the worst pollutants, and it was found that lead in fuels quickly destroyed the CAT - coating the precious metals used (the actual catalyst), and rendering them useless - so THAT's why unleaded fuels were developed.
So it's not the law to use a CAT with unleaded fuels, but it's a requirement of CAT equiped cars that you DO use unleaded fuels otherwise you'll kill the CAT.
The problem is that the components in petrol with the highest natural octane numbers are the aromatic compounds like Benzine, Toluene and Meta-Xylene, but these are also the worst environmental components of petrol. So the first unleaded fuels needed more Benzine, compounds to replace the missing lead so that the octane number stayed high, but those same benzines were causing the most envionmental damage (they are carcenogenic).
The fuel companies these days are trying to reduce the amount of aromatics in petrol, but it's difficult to do so whilst keeping the octane number up to the required number.
PULP is a higher octane unleaded fuel - 95RON.
BP Ultimate, Shell Optimax and Mobil Synergy 8000 are even higher octane unleaded fuels - 98RON.
Just putting a higher octane fuel in your car will NOT make it go better - the octane number is just a number which describes the fuel's ability to resist detonation, and if your engine needs only 91 octane, it will not run better with 95 or 98 octane.
But if your current unleaded fuel has ethanol or MTBE in it and you switch to PULP or optimax for example, you might find an increase in performance, not because of the higher octane number, but because of the fuel composition - all hydrocarbons rather than being mixed with oxygenates for example. So you have to be very careful when talking about an engine's fuel requirements that you are not mixing apples with oranges.
Thanks to Robo for the address of VW in NSW - I've fired off a fax asking them to clarify what they said above (lots of stuff similar to the info in my post above) - I'll let you all know the minute I get a reply (don't hold your breath).
amazer ·
Volkswagen Australia know absolutely stuff all about anything that is not on their showroom floor today.... Well in fact thats not entirely true. When I was asking questions about the turbo passat they knew stuff all about that too.
From a different point of view the flashlube (or sumthin) rep all but told club vw sydney that you dont need it. And he sells it for a living!
I was talking to a mate who works for a VW dealer last weekend at Bulli. If they come across something obscure they are left on their own to figure it out, despite having god knows how many millions of cars worldwide that have already had the same problem.
I would like to know what the response would be if you wrote to VW asking the firing order of a 77 kombi!
I have used every single type of petrol in my VW. and to be honest I never noticed any difference in running. Some people say they run crap on the LRP, I never noticed that, although I didnt use it for long. Just experimental. The optimax is also said to give more power and economy. I say bollocks, but thats my opinion. It does leave the insides of your engine shiny and clean though. LRP, no name fuel, woolworths, unleaded, premium. never noticed any difference in any car. Only thing I notice is the hole in my wallet. I think its foolish to spend more than you have to. I use normal unleaded from wherever is cheapest on the day, with the occasional tank of optimax when cheap to clean things up a bit.
amazer ·
I also think this current ethanol debate is stirred up by the media and is a load of crap.
68AutoBug ·
blue74l wrote:ALL VWs since 1967 came with hardened valve seats.
Leaded petrol has not been sold in the USA for approx 15 + years.
You will do NO damage with ULP.
If you run stock compression <8:1 you can run ULP
> 8:1 CR and i would strongly suggest PULP
If you run LRP i will NEVER talk to you again and i will personally come around and take your VW off you 😀
Next question?
and if You can't find them, I'll come down and help You.... for those people who insist on using the Garbage called LRP - (It will soon be unavailable and then You Will have to use UNLEADED) The only VW engines it will damage? are if You had a NOS 50's Cylinder head and NOS 50's Valves... the valve stems would be too tight in the valve inserts in the NOS heads... without lead or some other lubricant - If YOU are NOT using this Combination -- DON'T WORRY.... Use ULP or PULP....😀:o:thumb:thumb:bounce:bounce:bounce
70AutoStik ·
Well, it seems most points were well covered, but I'll argue a couple of points anyway (because I enjoy it.)
Firstly: Someone said LRP should not be used for anything. This is not true - it's perfectly OK for cleaning parts (or making molotovs, creating firebreaks and disposing of lawyers.)
Second: A number of people have commented on the use of hardened seats being the reason '68-on heads are OK for unleaded. Actually, as someone else wrote, VW heads have always had hardened inserts: In '67 they moved to an even tougher material (but the earlier seats have never suffered recession to my knowledge) and in '68 introduced hard-chromed exhaust-valve stems. As the latter-style seats and inserts are used on any properly rebuilt heads, unleaded fuel can be safely used on any VW. If you happen to have original pre-68 heads, the difference in life will probably not be noticable - if you are driving a completely original vintage dub, flashlube is the favourite of such clubs.
Thirdly: Does this really matter - LRP is due to start disappearing in the very near future...
:beer:beer:beer
[Edited on 28-2-2003 by 70AutoStik]
OvalGlen ·
LRP disappearing will be great !-we wont have this same arguement next month.
The only thing will be " do I have to use additive ? " so lets answer in advance " NO".
Jay_1965vw ·
I had Wolf serviced on Friday... when I pickedhim up, my mechanic said the valves were REALLY tight... and asked if I had been using LRP. I said I was a while ago, but had stopped. He said they are now recommending NOT to use it because of the evidence they are seeing in peoples engines.
My 2c
Jay
bus914 ·
I also think this current ethanol debate is stirred up by the media and is a load of crap.
if your car is carbureted, and the jets are stock, when you come up for the Nationals get a tank full of Fairfield's finest (ULP). Let us know what happened.
reub ·
My car is unleaded being wrx powered. A number of my friends have early model cars and simply run a fuelstar cell in their fuel line.
i'm skeptical of catalysts. if it was that easy wouldn't the refineries use this technology or production cars be fitted with them?
amazer ·
I dont believe in the catalysts either. I cant see why there are so many different sizes. Presumably there would be 1 with 6mm fittings and one with 8mm.
But getting back to it, it doesnt matter which method you use. They are all wasted money cos they arent needed.
I will fill up at Fairfield if its at the right price. I'll need it to get home.
Where exactly does the fuel get laced with ethanol? All the oil companies deny it. The media says its there? Is there a dodgy little refinery somewhere adding it? Or are there ethanol tankers cruising the streets early in the morning topping up all the independant stations. Usually motoring bodies such as NRMA jump on these things, but they havent to date and yet the issue is supposedly widespread. The only thing the NRMA has done is to warn of the consequences of it, and surveyed the oil companies' stances.
Maybe it is there. But I am a paranoid conspiracy theorist (i bet the bastard CIA is responsible for all my SPAM) But I would like to see some evidence from someone other than a TV network. If it isnt a myth its probably the big refineries secretly lacing trucks going to independants to scare the public back to their own higher priced stations.
[Edited on 2-3-2003 by amazer]
kombikim ·
It was great to come in to work today & see Aussiebugs reply, it is the complete factual answer to the problem,full of info & big words I couldn't access at work, Amazer & Blue 74L summarized it in simple terms, Volkswagen Australia sent typical form lettered crap.
One other problem with LRP becoming evident involves the very short shelf life of petrol these days, & because very few people are buying it, it is sitting at the servo for a very long time, a freind of mine using it suddenly had a hell of a lot of trouble starting his immaculately maintained car after filling up, it was only solved by draing tank & refilling with ULP, the servo (in well to do area) said they hardly ever sell LRP anymore & had not topped up their tank for "yonks"
aussiebug ·
amazer wrote:Where exactly does the fuel get laced with ethanol? All the oil companies deny it. The media says its there? Is there a dodgy little refinery somewhere adding it? Or are there ethanol tankers cruising the streets early in the morning topping up all the independant stations. Usually motoring bodies such as NRMA jump on these things, but they havent to date
[Edited on 2-3-2003 by amazer]
I had a long chat with the technical director at the RAA (Sth Aus) last week, after the RAA did a check of SA stations for ethanol in fuel (it's illegal here in SA to have ethanol or MTBE in fuel). The RAA check found NO traces of ethanol added to SA fuels.
He was VERY knoweldgable about the problem in Sydney - he said that is was an ethnic "family" group of independent operators in Sydney's south-west... apparantly the same group who were responsible for lacing fuel with Toulene (imported as paint thinners to avoid fuel taxes) a year or so ago.
I'm not going to say which ethnic group the RAA guy specified as I don't wish to tar all people in that group with the one brush.
In the toluene case there was no actual detriment to the engine since toluene is a natural ingredient of petrol anyway, and is very high octane - 120. In fact Shell used to advertise years ago - "over a pint of Methyl Benzine (toluene) in every gallon of Super Shell". (I used to race go-carts many years ago and ran straight toluene in a high compression engine - it's a good fuel).
It was an "avoid tax" issue and as a result - all toluene imported into Aus now has an added tax - thanks to that group.
BP has had E10 (10% ethanol) in many stations in NSW and QLD for several years, but those pumps are clearly marked - "E10 - contains 10% ethanol".
There is no federal law which requires companies to signpost the fuel ingredients like ethanol, so some places are taking advantage of the lack of laws. Some states (like SA and WA, DO have laws which prohibit the lacing of fuels with any type of oxygenate (alcohol and MBTE are the most common oxygenates added to fuel).
I guess it comes down to - if you buy from one of the major oil companies you'll have no problems (they have a reputation to uphold) but if you buy from independent and then find you car running like c##p, switch to another station and see if that helps. If enough people do that they would soon get the message :-)
bus914 ·
unfortunately petrol station owners stand to gain big time from adding ethanol.
1. It causes fuel injected cars to use more petrol. (more litres sold)
2. They don't pay the excise collected from the consumer on every 5th litre sold when 20% ethanol is added. (clear profit)
...and as yet there is no penalty in NSW for getting caught except embarrassment by the media.
Unmarked tankers adding piss to the fuel in the early hours of the morning would look a strong possibility.
NRMA's Open Road told the story well, but their suggestions for dealing with the issue were an absolute joke. they've lost all my respect for their handling of this problem.
Aren't all big name petrol stations run as franchise operations? I suspect owners in western Sydney don't give a thought for the reputations of their parent oil companies when larger profits can be made. It’s not just the independents, I never deal with them anyway.
[Edited on 3-3-2003 by bus914]
aussiebug ·
BUs 914 said:
> It's not just the independents (adding ethanol)...
Well - maybe it isn't, but the RAA technical guy seemed to know a lot about it - it was the stink in NSW which made them carry out their own checks here in SA to make sure we weren't getting the Ethanol blends.
Another thing that bothers me is that BP (on their web site) talk about the method of blending the ethanol into the petrol - it can either be poured in and stirred or a much better way (I forget the term BP used now) but it meant that it mised better and stayed mixed, so the fly-by-night ehtnaol additions would almost certainly be pour and stir - no garrantee that it will stay mixed so you might get 10% at one part of the tank and 30% at another.
And I have yet to find out if it's normal distilled ethanol or anhydrous ethanol which mixes with petrol - or whether it even makes a difference.
If you distill and water/alcohol mix, you get only 96% ethanol - the other 4% water is chemically bonded to the ethanol molecules.
The remaining 4% must be removed chemically. So if "normal" ethanol is added to petrol, does the 4% water cause mixing problems??? If would certainly add to the lean-running problem for carburetted cars like the VW!
As far as I know - the "trick" ethanol was being imported as mouthwash base or something like that (to avoid any taxes) - I'm sure the 4% water would not be removed for THAT purpose.
All I can say is that I'm glad I'm not filling up in Sydney (sorry Sydneysiders)!
bus914 ·
hmmmmm.....water.
maybe that's why my fuel cap rusted out from the inside?
70AutoStik ·
I happen to know someone rather high up with BP and I'll ask him about your concerns, AussieBug. As for some of the others: ethanol will mix with petrol quite effectively up to about 70% (ethanol to water) - I did some experiments in my younger years. However, at higher water levels it will start to settle out over time. 90/10 mix actually seemed to produce more power (mixed in at 10-30%) than straight petrol in my two-strokes!
Alcohol is hydroscopic (it has a tendancy to absorb water) and any alcohol-based fuel will absorb water from the air over time; but after about 15-20% the rate of absorption decreases dramatically. Small amounts of water (say, 4,5%) will show no noticable effect on performance and even larger quantities can be run effectively on a high-compression motor - at a lower temperature.
This tendancy of all alcohol-containing fuels to contain water does present a problem for metal fuel tanks and lines and can produce excessive amounts of corrosion, but again it's not such a problem if you go through a lot of fuel (and run a modern fuel filter. Some fuel line material (rubber) can be rather adversely affected by alcohol - it's worth checking.
Adding alcohol (usually in the form of metho - or denatured alcohol) to fuel that has been contaminated with water has long been known to be effective and has been common practice in these rougher parts of the country for a long time. The alcohol added (some more experienced practitioners suggest up to 10-30%) does lean the mixture, but the higher octane rating, combined with the boost of the water, tends to couteract it and produce a quite useful fuel.
P.S. Sorry about the long post guys: especially as I have seen some data on diluting of fuel in NSW I can't legally share. Take the advice of the guy above who tells you to avoid stations where you've received dodgy fuel - unless you live in the country, where the owners have a bit more to deal with and a bottle of metho will probably fix it (or the next tank.)
amazer ·
OK well maybe I will have to eat my words. I found some ethanol. Did my usual trick of checking out the 3 petrol stations on the way to school, stopped at the cheapest on the way back. Each bowser had a sticker on it "octane enhanced with ethanol"
Had to go back to caltex. Mind you, it would probably make my kombi run better seeing as its so rich at the moment.
aussiebug ·
70AutoStik wrote:I happen to know someone rather high up with BP and I'll ask him about your concerns, AussieBug.
Thanks - I'll be interested in your info.
As for some of the others: ethanol will mix with petrol quite effectively up to about 70% (ethanol to water) - I did some experiments in my younger years.
Interestiing - that's a LOT of water content to get mixed into the petrol.
Alcohol is hydroscopic (it has a tendancy to absorb water)
This tendancy of all alcohol-containing fuels to contain water does present a problem for metal fuel tanks and lines and some fuel line material (rubber) can be rather adversely affected by alcohol - it's worth checking.
Agreed - newer synthetic rubbers can usually cope with alcohols, but your old rubber lines might start leaking is you use E10 or similar petrol (containing alcohol).
Adding alcohol (usually in the form of metho - or denatured alcohol) to fuel that has been contaminated with water has long been known to be effective
In absording any condensation in the tank - yes. But Metho is a mixture of Methanol and Ethanol (the original name is methylated alcohol) - which is done to make the ethanol undrinkable by the way - makes it more of a problem fuel. ethanol contains 39% used oxygen so a 10% mix with petrol makes the VW engine run 3.9% lean. That's bad enough, but if you use Metho - the methanol contains almost 50% used oxygen - then 10% (for exmaple) metho in petrol will make it run even leaner. Lean means hot and hot means it will need higher octane. As 70autostick said above, the nature of alcohol can counter this to some extent (evaouprative cooling is improved and it has a high octane number) but the engine won't be happy if it has any significant amount of alcohol mixed into the fuel, unless you increase the size of the main jet, and maybe even the idle jet (since it supplies some fuel up to about 2500rpm).
Purple Martin ·
I've heard of people using water injection to make the engine run cooler (and cleaner) and increase performance. Does water absorbed in ethanol have a similar effect, or am I just getting my chemistry confused?
56astro ·
Purple Martin wrote:Does water absorbed in ethanol have a similar effect, or am I just getting my chemistry confused?
"Absorbed" is not quite the right word.
Water will mix with polar sovents such as alcohols, they are soluble in water.
Water will not mix with non-polar solvents such as petrol, oil, diesel.
70AutoStik ·
As for some of the others: ethanol will mix with petrol quite effectively up to about 70% (ethanol to water) - I did some experiments in my younger years.
Interestiing - that's a LOT of water content to get mixed into the petrol.
Oops! typo! For petrol read water - at that ratio the water will settle out rather quickly (and will sometimes form a "gel" - I'm not sure exactly what it is, my home laboratory was inadequate to analyze it!)
[Edit] BTW - the amount of Methanol in metho is rather small, just enough to make a normal person puke if they drink it - it is still enough to send alcos blind if they drink it long enough, though. (pretty sad to even think about.)