How much does a pony cost?

Jak and I were talking the other day about how Paul wants to run NOS and 20+pound 1.because it will be ridiculously quick and 2. if it blows up then he goes and grabs another for $800 and is back on the road in a weekend.
Apart from the initial set up for a specific motor, what will it cost you per h/p to replace that same engine. On Jaks 195hp it is $4.10 per hp, I am hoping for 250hp which is $3.20 per hp.
My 2332 cost $8000 and would have made about 150hp, which is $53.33 per hp. There are people paying $11000 for 130 hp....wait for it....$84 per hp!!!
I went for a bit of a drive tonight, discovered M3 BMW's are slow, and thought to myself... this car screams, is relaible, smooth, fuel efficient, sounds like Darth Vader and if I want I can thrash the crap out of it because its only $800 if I screw the motor, and I dont have to wait for someone to rebuild it!

I think my journey to the dark side is complete........
:vader

DEpends on what you want but some good figures there

Thats True Matt, its all black and white:vader JVLRacing😉

Thats True Matt, its all black and white:vader JVLRacing😉

Thats True Matt, its all black and white:vader JVLRacing😉

WOW that got the poitn across ^^^^^^

triple post, repition insures that its remberd :duh

Nah, it's all grey... that's why I play with getting power out of air-cooled VWs instead of being sensible and putting money into my HSV's V8...

Well in Glen, I can always count on you for a quick response....

VWCOOL wrote:Nah, it's all grey... that's why I play with getting power out of air-cooled VWs instead of being sensible and putting money into my HSV's V8...

sensible = HSV !?! :duh

all the same from my perspective. the HSV is still a nasty old pushrod engine. They don't rev and cost an arm and a leg. Anyone can make HP from a 5 litre engine.

But if you want to play with aircooled motors, that's cool.

Now I'm just waiting to see who comes and disagrees with me, but I have a hunch about who it might be....😉

You didnt tell me you were going fishing today Pete.

boof2332 wrote:On Jaks 195hp it is $4.10 per hp, I am hoping for 250hp which is $3.20 per hp.

Those suby motor's certainly are cheap. After selling the gearbox and junk from the front cut my remaining V6 motor cost my $1750, and I have 200HP (althought that is flywheel), so mine is about $8.75/flywheel HP.

More expensive than the subi's, but I'll just tell myself mine is more exotic 🙂

If my car wasn't an offroader I would've actually went for the Mitsu 6A12G twin turbo 2L V6. I'm just a sucker for a hi-po jap V6. If the mod rules change I might supercharge my KLZE.

You guys are doing well to find the EJ20's for $800 though. Around here you either buy the front cut, or buy the engine for almost the front cut price anyway. And the EJ20T, my KLZE V6 and the Mitsu V6 are all around the $2500 in front cut form around Brisbane. Unless I am just looking in the wrong place...

Yeah where do you buy an EJ20T for $800? They cost allot more then that up here in brisbane. Either that or I've been following Wes to the wrong places. :duh

Well, my 1835 cost me about $3500 all told, and I guess it makes about 85hp on a good day. Thats about $41 / hp.

Yes, if I was building the car again, it would have either EJ22 / EJ20T or 13B power in it.

Would love to be able to do that now, but $$ are an issue.

Having said that, there is something special and nice about a hipo VW motor, and its a lifestyle choice more than anything what you choose to power your vw with. I also can appreciate those who just want to tweak what came with the car as far as possible (the person who comes immediately to mind is Adam Debiasi (I think) with his turbo, intercooled FI'd 1916 green machine).

boof2332 wrote:You didnt tell me you were going fishing today Pete.

sometimes I just can't help myself.

I haven't done the maths on my motor. Coz of when I did it and how I did it, I know it's not as cheap as you guys. But it's still a few grand cheaper than a VW motor of similar specs.

I see:duh a debate happening!!!JVLRacing

Doug Sweetman wrote:Well, my 1835 cost me about $3500 all told, and I guess it makes about 85hp on a good day. Thats about $41 / hp.

Yes, if I was building the car again, it would have either EJ22 / EJ20T or 13B power in it.

Would love to be able to do that now, but $$ are an issue.

Having said that, there is something special and nice about a hipo VW motor, and its a lifestyle choice more than anything what you choose to power your vw with. I also can appreciate those who just want to tweak what came with the car as far as possible (the person who comes immediately to mind is Adam Debiasi (I think) with his turbo, intercooled FI'd 1916 green machine).

Ideally, I think most of us would love to own something like Adam's motor (except bigger of course :thumb), but it's hard to justify it when you can buy something better that's cheaper and OEM, even if it's not a VW.

I have a TLE type 3 motor in my garage at home. I'd love to build it up really tough and turbo it for something. But in reality, it will probably just end up a 1640 with mostly standard internals. My mate has a notch and I'm trying to con him into putting in that, but when the standard motor is so smooth, it's hard to explain why you'd want to spend thousands getting to run right with EFI and an intercooler. That said, he used to own a 350 monaro, so I'm confident he'll feel the need for more power sooner rather than later.:P

Amen.

Would be nice to do, but hard to justify unless $$ arent an issue or you have a business to advertise.

What i cant justify a T4 stroker with all the goodies +Turboed costing over 16,17,18 ooo $$$ + Producing roughly around 200 to 300 estimated(i stand corrected) Where i can build a Subie motor for $7000 with 300+hps.Theres subie motors on this forum which cost $3500 producing 195hps.Lets be honest which one would you want?:duhJVLRacing

Doug,

Put your 1835 on the forum for sale and buy 2 ej20t's...you know..one for the rainy day!

Look in any Fast 4 mag and they are advertised for $800..one place bench tested in front of you!

Matt

jvl054 wrote:What i cant justify a T4 stroker with all the goodies +Turboed costing over 16,17,18 ooo $$$ + Producing roughly around 200 to 300 estimated(i stand corrected) Where i can build a Subie motor for $7000 with 300+hps.Theres subie motors on this forum which cost $3500 producing 195hps.Lets be honest which one would you want?:duhJVLRacing

Before we get all holier than thou about subie motors, lets talk aout real subie race motors. I was at MRT afew years back and one car had 50K worth of stroker motor in it, and that was before tuning. And what about the Group A rally cars? The firm that builds them in the UK charges 100K plus for a motor that only produces 300hp (albiet ridiculous torque). Real race subies can produce 500hp plus with a proper build up. Ring the Rigolis and ask them how much one of those would cost. I'm guessing you'd be in Pauter spending territory by then.

So no, a type 4 stroker isn't cheap, but then neither is any stroker motor.

I just went to the shops to get some cough mixture..its about 1.5km away. It took me an hour....just kept driving. Nothing worth a mention had a run except a Honda NSX-R, at first I thought it was a 355 behind me and I got a bit excited at the thought of spanking my first ferrari..not to be.

The short sump seems to be fine, and I drove the car all day today without any problems. The rear intercooler with the ducting and fans works a treat. Intake temps drop to ambient...tonight 10degrees.

Matt

pete wood wrote:

jvl054 wrote:What i cant justify a T4 stroker with all the goodies +Turboed costing over 16,17,18 ooo $$$ + Producing roughly around 200 to 300 estimated(i stand corrected) Where i can build a Subie motor for $7000 with 300+hps.Theres subie motors on this forum which cost $3500 producing 195hps.Lets be honest which one would you want?:duhJVLRacing

Before we get all holier than thou about subie motors, lets talk aout real subie race motors. I was at MRT afew years back and one car had 50K worth of stroker motor in it, and that was before tuning. And what about the Group A rally cars? The firm that builds them in the UK charges 100K plus for a motor that only produces 300hp (albiet ridiculous torque). Real race subies can produce 500hp plus with a proper build up. Ring the Rigolis and ask them how much one of those would cost. I'm guessing you'd be in Pauter spending territory by then.

So no, a type 4 stroker isn't cheap, but then neither is any stroker motor.

I can walk into MRT & buy an US STI 2.5 L (brand new) short block for $3500 & just bolt on all my heads, manifolds turbo exhaust etc, why spend $50'000? I would consider that extremely cheap, especially when these 2.5 motors can punt a rexxy down a 11 second 1/4 mile & sub 50second lap times at Oran Park.
But I seriously doubt that I would be able to handle that kind of power, although I'm sure that there is someone on the forum that probably thinks they can.

Pete, for sure the Rigolis have ther shit together.Deffently next project will be a 2.5subie.These are my facts : i run a 2L subie with no STI gear,big heads,TDo5 cleaned up 14psi at 1 bar,modified wastegate,modified pipe flow work etc costing $7000 300hps @272foot pounds of torque.Now those race subie motors costing 50k and getting 500hps!.Ill guarantee another 2or5k i will get somewhere close to that fig. of 500hps without spending 50k.The 2L subie has so much potential its mind blowing for such little money that we have to spend on it.I feel holier of my acheivement JVLRacing😉

I spent about $7200 on my 2110cc an I figure I've got close to 100RWHP.

$72 per HP
.
.
.
.
How much was your conversion again Jak? $3800

I can understand a karmann, split, oval, '67 etc keeping the aircooled engine but hey I have a 1302 and it is not regarded as a "classic" by the puritans. I wouldn't cut a good classic VW to fit any engine/turbo/supercharger/double overhead fangers etc.... but a super beetle, a baja, a manx (as long as I didn't deface the look of the kit), a bay window...... you bet.

Cheap reliable HP. If I had only known before I started my engine build.

Brendan

$7200 for 100hp @ the wheels, u got a bargain mate! some people pay $10000+ for 100hp @ the wheels (in reality)
Hey where did your bottom pic go? the car looked great, can u email it to me?
regards
Jak

PS I got my new wheels, did u want to try my old ones on?

jvl054 wrote:Pete, for sure the Rigolis have ther shit together.Deffently next project will be a 2.5subie.These are my facts : i run a 2L subie with no STI gear,big heads,TDo5 cleaned up 14psi at 1 bar,modified wastegate,modified pipe flow work etc costing $7000 300hps @272foot pounds of torque.Now those race subie motors costing 50k and getting 500hps!.Ill guarantee another 2or5k i will get somewhere close to that fig. of 500hps without spending 50k.The 2L subie has so much potential its mind blowing for such little money that we have to spend on it.I feel holier of my acheivement JVLRacing😉

I think you'll find that there is a law of diminishing returns. As the power level rises the amount of money you need to spend to get more increases exponentially. So yes, for 2-5k you might be able to get an extra 100-150hp without to many issues. Heck, for that you might even get 600hp. The real question is, at those levels, way outside it's original design spec, how long will the motor last? Will it just be a grenade?
Coz lets face it, if it is, $800 every race meeting isn't looking so cheap. :duh

And we haven't even started discussing what 500hp does to a gearbox when driven in anger....
mmmm, food for thought. :o

Yeh your right about the gearbox,deffently would explode.Most subies will explode if the boost of the Turbo is not set up right all goven proper.This can lead to internal problems without a doudt.Internally these motors are strong,breathing of subie motors are week.If you get it right skys the limit.$800 dollars every meet!!!!195hps at $3500 .5 meets ayear at $800 dollars a blow up =$4000. Vw stroker $16000 around ball park fig interesting.:duhJVLRacing

Youre a bad man 😀

But as if you'd want to replace your motor after every meet, and that's assuming it would make it through the whole race.

That said, if you were to do it like that you could buy in bulk off the local wrecker.😉

Although, all the other subie parts customers might get cranky with you very fast. And you wnat to factor in the cost of oil, turbos and new timing belts.

Yeh your right i wouldnt like to replace my motor every meet,just aint practical.Its without doudt a very strong motor and plenty more homework to go even STI would be proud:P:PJVLRacing

Jak,
I did the build myself and scoured around for parts so the 7200 was just for parts and machining. As you know I never built the motor as a HP monster but one that had plenty of torque and was fun to drive on the street. I got what I wanted. Having ridden in yours I know you got fun and street driveable with plenty of HP.

That photo was taken by Squizy on the F3 on the way to the Hunter a few weeks ago.

I'd love to try the wheels but will be away and won't have a weekend available until the 17th. I'll drop around on the weekend to have a look at the new ones though.


Brendan

If you 'set up' a Subie properly with stock management, and don't fiddle with it - has anybody on here done that except for Buggy Brad? - they will last just about forever. I've seen the inside of several with 300,000km on them and they look like new (except for lifters which fail). But many people like to compulsively fiddle ("Get more power") and end up running into problems by doing so!

You have to factor in the actual conversion costs, too - radiator, managment, rewiring, bigger brakes, labour. Great if you can do it yourself, but not everybody can! A modded air-cooled VW engine is 'plug n play' and great fun. But yes, not as powerful as a Subie/rotary etc

Having said that, I've had plenty of fun with my 1640s and 1916s over tHE last 15 years... and now it's been rebuilt HERE WE GO AGAIN!

[Edited on 22/6/2005 by VWCOOL]

As long as u are content with the powerplant that u have & there are hot vw's roaming the streets, regardless of the powerplant, thats all that matters as far as I'm concerned.

I'm hoping to get my $850 with my engine, it's running 6 pounds less boost than factory, & also had some timing taken out of it so that I can run any fuel from any servo without fear of damage on boost. A few of the rexxy boys that I have been speaking to have another 50000ks+ on their engines that I have with double+ the boost & they flog them daily. Mine hasn't stopped running since Pauly & i first fired it up, hopefully it will stay that way, it should since I'm not greedy for power.
Jak

VWCOOL, what sought of $$$ dollars are you looking at to rebuild your 1916? JVLRacing

I had a liberty 1991 model, the EJ22 in it had 180,00km on it and was still sweet when I replaced it with a 110,000km EJ20T. I then did about 35,000 kms with that and it NEVER skipped a beat.

Fantastic little engines.

But I'm with Jak - so long as there are hot vw's on the streets I'm a happy lad.

oh and PS what are you road registered guys paying in insurance with you EJ20 beetles ?

jvl054 wrote:VWCOOL, what sought of $$$ dollars are you looking at to rebuild your 1916? JVLRacing

Just paid $2.5K to have Stan do replacement case and new heads around my old P&Cs, rods and crank. The old ones died from old age...!

[Edited on 23/6/2005 by VWCOOL]

Doug Sweetman wrote:oh and PS what are you road registered guys paying in insurance with you EJ20 beetles ?

$285 for comprehensive from Shannons, 2nd car (low milage) up to 8000kays a year. That gives me $8k worth of cover for my EJ25 buggy. I could get more, but that's all I can afford at the mo.

Keeping in mind i'm 32 and have no prior convictions or accidents in the last 3 years.

Excellent value I reckon. Only 30bucks more than 3rd party property.

damn you peter thats less than my green slip this year :cussing

[Edited on 23/6/2005 by barls]

far out thats an incredible price. I cant wait until I'm an old fart too 🙂

just kidding, I'm only 25 though, so not quite out of the age issue with the insurance companies. That is an excellent rate though, I'm impressed.

I guess the fact its a lowkm's ploicy makes a big difference ?

Mine is about $1100 a year form Shannons, but it's valued quite high & I have track (race) insurance & I also have unlimited klm's which I need.
I also get my car back no questions asked if something should ever happen to it.
regards
Jak

I figured around the $1k mark for a daily driver insurance. How much does the track insurance add to it ?

barls wrote:damn you peter thats less than my green slip this year :cussing

Barls you turkey, it's less than my greenslip too! And thats for modified car insurance! 😀

But seriously, I'm really stoked about it. I only drive the car about once a week coz I catch the train the rest of the time. I've also got salvage rights just like Jak was saying.

Even for you young guys, it might be time to give them a call. It you don't drive the car much it a real boon. 😉

yeah but my insurance is about $600 for the stock bug im driving where as my greenslip is $370 cause im under 25, but chaos will only be 800 for full insurance

Dam good insurance for great Subie hps!!!!:PJVLRacing