Stiffening chassis on a type I

I did a search both on here an on google, and didn't find much of use... I'd like to know how to stiffen an early Beetle chassis enough to cope with 320bhp. First off, and I know a lot of you won't like this at all, a roll cage is OUT OF THE QUESTION - period. I know that Kafer cup braces are used on the rear frame horns, and that there's some sort of "chassis stiffener" that mounts between the torsion bar housing and the bulkhead, but I couldn't find any info about it. I also figured that the convertible pan reinforcements might prove to be useful as well... Any other suggestions or ideas?

What engine are you running?
And what will the car be used for?nn[ Edited on 3-7-2005 by VWCOOL ]

Seam welding might help. I found on my '58 that a lot of the factory spot welds had pulled from 40+ years of use. There were also a few tears in the actual sheet metal around the rear parcel shelf. This is where a few of the spot welds had pulled. There is a lot of factory seam sealer over them at the back though which is quite difficult to remove. I did a few stitches over the rows of spot welds all around the back. Also thinking of doing a few around the front of the body too.

all i can think off are what you mentioned above.

build a really good brace in the back, that ties the horns, torsion bars, shock towers all together ( 5 pieces kafer cup?). seam weld, and vert chassis.

what about a rear engine mount of some kind, that mounts onto the bumper brackets? or even a offroad style bash plate running from infront of the torsion tubes, back to the bumper braket mounts an tie stuf into that?

Hi

Im interested in this subject as well. Im building a WRX powered 1303. Ive had a really good look over the Targa Tasmania & London to Sydney rally car that was built at Vintage VW supplies in Sydney. One of the things I noticed and will use are radiused sections at the base of the A & B pillars just like a cabrio. Something I have given some thought to is the rear seat support that runs between both B pillars, Im going to make this stronger and have it going up each B pillar a bit and have it bolted to the middle of the pan. Im also going make a angle steel section that will fit under chassis were the pan bolts on, then the usual cup braces at the rear and a strut brace at the front and seam welding the pan & body. Im still researching this subject and would welcome others thoughts on this subject.

Steve

Depends on whether you mean 'chassis' or the car, hence my question re engine/car

Try stitch-welds (not seam!) the frame horns both sides, inner body shell (each factory seam from gutter to floor plus inside wheel wells) support braces from body to frame horns etc etc. Also front shock towers, buggy support braces between beam and body, delete pan/body seal for stiffer assembly and radius door corners.

I am considering converting my early shell to late-model 68-on door catches (cut and shut B pillar etc) to prevent them from flying open: testing my new brakes, the shell flexes enough to allow them to pop open... which is kinda a mix of :thumb and 😬

Use a late body for serious performance. As well as better door catches, they are stiffer

nn[ Edited on 4-7-2005 by VWCOOL ]

i also am interested in these processes, do you have any pics of what you mean steve?

as we all know..pictures tell a thousand words


Anthony

Hi

Next time I go over to Vintage for an ale I will take my camera.

Steve

Whats the difference between a stitch and seam weld?

First off I will be running a custom supercharged EJ25 which as I said should be good for over 320bhp. The project is more of an engineering/hotrodding showcase really, and will NOT see any track time, just the occasional prod of the right foot :P

The car (a 1955 Oval) is to be sandblasted, which should remove all the factory seam sealer and expose all the spot welds, so that shouldn't be too hard...

BiX, could you please describe this bash plate you refer to in further detail, or better yet point me in the direction of pics? I know its a cliche, but a picture is worth a thousand words!

Keep the good stuff coming guys! :thumb

The cabrio radiused braces sound like a good idea. Anyone ever tried putting the kabrio reinforcement rails on a normal sedan? Hey VWCOOL, does deleting the body to pan gasket make a noticeable difference? did you just use some kind of silicon to seal it instead?

It was just an idea i had, was just trying to think outside the sqaure.

basicaly like a hideaway buggy engine cage, which you could then tie engine mounts, forks and mabye a kafer cup style brace into.

Chewy wrote:Whats the difference between a stitch and seam weld?

Stitches don't crack all the way along thier length - a crack (if it happens) is restricted to just one 'stitch' and can't travel to the next one. Much betterer...nn[ Edited on 5-7-2005 by VWCOOL ]

seam welds are long continuous welds. stitch welds are when you do short seams that are spaced apart. Stitch welding is preferable when you don't want to put as much heat (and distortion) into the workpiece.

Seam
_____________________________


Stitch
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

So guys... any pics or new ideas?

what about a 2 inch body lift like in a baja it does do the job rather nicely

that way it stiffens up all the way to the front as well

Hydra,what you are suggesting without a rollcage is never going to be as effective......I would be thinking with some sort of box section cage work at rear engine area Joining the forks of chassis to stronger points of body bulkhead.....With front joining from beam down to tunnel of chassis back to Door Pillars.You are right pictures tell you a thousand words.Think of a shape like the letter "X" this would be the bracing shape.....VWcool stitch work is:thumb ups and maybe look at what 1303 is suggesting.JVLRacing

have alook how porsche mount their motors and brace them remove the floor pans an use box steel on the outer where the bolts run through to the body and have a full cage linking through the body to pan and have a intrusion bar to stiffen the door area and a box section where the door hinges are .Also if you are running the 55 pan you wont pass the cc size to orignal weight of a oval @ 760 kgs ,my car is a 56 and I,m using a 74 pan to get pass vic roads new reg when it takes affect .to many chassis modes and your car might have to be registered along the same lines as a kit car .Seam welding isn,t safe or practical for street due to the fact if the car develops a tear it will run the lenght of the weld stitch is better and using a late model engine orignal ecu must be used in vic and maybe other states as well and some engineers look for the map sensor coming out of the ecu box which is a give away on after market ecus.Altonics have ecu boards that replace the orignal boards and maybe Richard Albort could provide an exsternal map sensor all the best anyway.

I'll bring this post back up to the top again as I've finally found the site where I saw some chassis bracing... It may help with ideas.

http://www.eyeball-engineering.net/

Good luck
Jeremy

Hi

I like those floor pan stiffeners, does anyone know if 1 1/4 x 2 inch tube is avaible here? I prefer the CSP style Kafer cup brace. Im hoping to make mine from VW tie rods, thats if I can get the correct ends in the metric thread.

Steve

Hi

Just did a search 50.8 x 31.8 x 1.6 Edcon Steel have it listed.

Steve

Hydra,Buy the latest hotvws mag 20/6/05. Inside there a race bug inside .....Christian Stelzer 2.6 drifter....he uses cross bracing tube for stiffening of car.Great info check it out! basically what i said in my firt post.JVLRacing

jvl054 wrote:Hydra,Buy the latest hotvws mag 20/6/05. Inside there a race bug inside .....Christian Stelzer 2.6 drifter....he uses cross bracing tube for stiffening of car.Great info check it out! basically what i said in my firt post.JVLRacing

or check out the same car on the wesite
http://www.vw1303rs.de/

Nice car, and he's had it for ages and improved it as hes gone.

Cheers
Jeremy

Hi

Sorry to dig up an old post, I found these photos on my camera of some A & B pillar strengthening on a friends bug.

Steve

Looks good.. but keep in mind this sort of strengthening is not allowed in some comp classes and MAY be frowned upon for engineering for street rego purposes

Hi

I hadn't thought about it with rego in mind, its basically what's done on factory cabrios. My car would be considered a sport sedan by CAMS I suppose anyway.

Steve

Hmm - did something similar on mine too - but not as nice as that.

Hi

They were made and installed by Kurt Martenson, he’s a renowned car restorer, street machine and hot rodder in the Gong. He painted VW54s Sea blue sunroof bug and his orange smoothy, he also painted my old yellow bug, that's why they look so good.

Steve

ive seen a few hack job convertables done the same way
i cant see how theyd be a problem with rego

Hi

I suppose that they could impede entry and exit from the car, you wouldn't want to get your seat belt caught in them and try to close the door.

Steve

just thinking that the roof section where the hoodlining goes could be closed up and stitched this wold help with the twist on a hard launch

DUB74L wrote:ive seen a few hack job convertables done the same way
i cant see how theyd be a problem with rego

By the book, because they are a 'major change' to the OE body of the original car they may raise an eyebrow at engineering/rego time

Don't get me wrong, I think it is a great idea, just pointing out the 'officialdom'

Hi

I'm doing some work on the the top of the B pillar as well as the in the roof area, just putting a small 45 corner in the B pillar to aid stiffening. Maybe I should start another post under body stiffening?

I sold my old 1302 because it had developed some small cracks and I was getting a groaning sound going over driveways etc. after very high mileage and hard use, the guy that bought it was aware of the cracks.

I've since discovered the source groaning sound, it was the ends on hood lining bows, my trimmer didint fit new ones, so when the body moved slightly they groaned.

With the 1303 I'm building now I'm determined to make it a strong as possible so that it will last me a long time.

Steve