009\'s in stock engines - performance or poo-formance?

Hi all,

Heres something I have been wondering for a while, but something came up during the week that made me ask this question....

I feel that the 009 in my 1200 has caused what little performance the engine had to turn to poo-formance...read on and see if you can help/suggest anything....

I understand that the mechanical advance only style dissys have their place in the VW world - particularly in engines with BIG cams that have an unstable vacuum signal at lower revs, but are they really the best alternative in standard (or near standard) engines?

My reason for asking this question is: I used to run an original style (big) dissy in my 1200 powered '63 bug. It worked fine, but the points eventually required replacement. Upon enquiring about replacement parts I was told to 'stop mucking about with that shi...er...rubbish and stick an 009 in it' (to quote my brother, who works as a VW mechanic). I just happened to have a second hand 009 in a collection of stuff that I had been given by a friend after he sold his VW collection, so I fitted it with a new set of points and a new condensor and dropped it into my 1200.

Yep - it runs, but it just doesn't seem to have the same torque as it did when it had the vac advance dissy in it - not that 1200's have a lot of torque - which is just my point - when you have very little power/torque, any loss is noticed.

Initially I thought that it was just my perception so I left the 009 in the car. I still wondered just how good it was, but it ran reliably so ...if it aint broke....

During the week, a friend of mine (and fellow forum member) reinstalled his 1200 in his car and had a few minor problems getting it to run reliably (another story), during the fault finding process (done verbally, over the counter whilst I was making pizzas at work) he mentioned that his engine seemed to be lacking something - ever since fitting the 009....hmmmm - sound familliar?

Has anyone else noticed this? I feel that the smaller engines really suffer when they don't have the vacuum advance as they appear to rely on the changes in load (and manifold vacuum) to change the advance and therefore generate the torque that you REALLY need in the 1200/1300 engines.

I would be interested to hear what others have done in regards to this problem (no - I'm not interested in upgrading the size of the engine, so don't even suggest it!) Is converting back to a mechanical and vacuum dissy the best way to go? Any particular model work better? Could I mod the 009 to give me better performance or should I just bin it?

Oh yeah, I should mention that I have tried a couple of different 009's in this car recently with no major change, so I don't believe that the 009 is faulty.

...or should I be looking somewhere else for the problem? Everything is adjusted to specs and the car is capable of sitting on 120km/h for hours (as long as there are no hills!) so I feel that the engine is in good shape, but it just doesn't feel right....

OK, over to you - any suggestions greatfully recieved.

R 🙂

PS: The car is still 6V and will be staying that way - if it was 12V it would have had my EFI/engine management system installed long ago which does allow for spark maps to be changed, and it also takes into account engine load when calculating the spark timing....

Agree - 009's on stock engines lose the vacuum advance at low revs, thus (usually) losing a percentage of low end torque - this would be doubly more noticable in a 1200.

First things first, did you time the 009 at full advance with a strobe, or statically? 009s cant be timed reliably statically as the quality of 009 dizzys variers considerably and you can get anything from 15 - 25* advance. Despite what people say, they are nowhere near as good as the stock dizzy on a stock engine.
Its kind of a catch 22 with a mech adv dizzy, to advance the timing, the revs need to increase, but for the revs to increase the timing needs to be advanced, hence the bad flat spots people encounter with 009s.

Time it to around 28-30* BTDC TOTAL advance at 3000rpm first and see how that goes, dont worry about the timing at idle as this is far less important than the timing at full advance. usually it'll fall around 7-10* BTDC tho, mark that point on the pully and you can time it statically from there on.

Really tho if you have the choice between a stock dizzy and a 009...

GO HERE

http://www.cal-look.com/index2.html

and under the technical page is a good artical describing the different types of dizzies avaliable for all VW's
and their apropriate aplications.
Cheers Nige

You've answered your own question. Ditch the 009.

I agree, ditch the 009, I have removed both from my stock VW engines and gone back to Vac advance after a few years of trying to get 009's to work well in my application.
Brett

009 works well in mine, but it's a 1600 with twin dells

Thanks for your replys everyone!

You have all confirmed what I thought was the case - It is most likely that I would be better off with a standard dissy in place of the 009.

I think that the most interesting point here is what Chewy said:

Chewy wrote:First things first, did you time the 009 at full advance with a strobe, or statically? 009s cant be timed reliably statically as the quality of 009 dizzys variers considerably and you can get anything from 15 - 25* advance.

...so, would I be correct if I said that the 009 is not really best suited to a VW engine at all (or is that a bit over the top?).

My reason for this statement is, from Chewys statement above, that the 009 does not cover the full ignition advance range for a 'normal' VW engine - 0 deg at idle to 30 deg max advance.....

I have been timing the ignition statically, but with a couple of degrees advance (ie: not at 0 deg) as it simply just didn't accellerate at a driveable rate with it set to 0 deg. As it never (audibly) pinged with the ignition set a few deg advanced I have continued to use this timing point. My brother tells me that he sets most engines ignition timing a couple of degrees advanced, regardless of the type of dissy fitted...

Thanks for that link Nige, I'll go now and have a close read of that page....

Next time I have my '63 at home (its not stored at my place) I will have a close look at exactly what the maximum advance is and make the necessary adjustments to achieve 30 deg maximum advance - then I will see what difference that makes. After this, I will replace the 009 with a vac and mech advance dissy and repeat the test. I'll let you know what happens.

R 🙂nn[ Edited on 7-7-2005 by ratty 63 ]

NigeType3 wrote:GO HERE

http://www.cal-look.com/index2.html

and under the technical page is a good artical describing the different types of dizzies avaliable for all VW's
and their apropriate aplications.
Cheers Nige

...just had a read of that page - pretty much agrees with everything said here already...glad I'm not suffering from that flat spot they are talking about at the end of the blurb on the 009 😀

I'll let you all know how my experiment goes....

R 🙂

ratty 63 wrote:...so, would I be correct if I said that the 009 is not really best suited to a VW engine at all (or is that a bit over the top?).

My reason for this statement is, from Chewys statement above, that the 009 does not cover the full ignition advance range for a 'normal' VW engine - 0 deg at idle to 30 deg max advance.....

Well thats why you have to set the timing at full adavnce with a 009.
Ie if the 009 you have makes 20* advance, when timed with the strobe for the proper timing of 30* at 3000RPM the timing at idle will fall at around 10BTDC.
10 + 20 = 30* total adavnce at 3000 rpm.

Even if your engine is supposed to run at 0*BTDC at idle, you have to live with it at 10 BTDC, its is much more important to have the correct timing at 4000 RPM pulling a big hill than it is sitting at the traffic lights at idle.

Saying all this tho my 1300SP with 009 and 30-pict 2 with a bit richer jetting actually runs very well with barely a flat spot, and the static timing falls around 7.5 BTDC which is stock nn[ Edited on 7-7-2005 by Chewy ]

once you have gone to a svda dizzy, you wont go back. drivability ++++++++++

I run a 009 on a 1600 with bugspray carby.static timed to 10 degree advanced.Some adjusting of the idle was needed but seems to go ok.Doesn't ping and flat spot was removed by tuning the carby in.

Hay ross just get rid of that facken 1200 and put a type 4 in problem solvered yeah yeah i know shut up you idiot

MUD BASHING ANYONE ?? wrote:... yeah yeah i know shut up you idiot

Thanks for saving me the effort of replying Tim :P 😂

I haven't had a chance to try re-setting the timing or changing to a mechanical/vac advance dissy yet, but I have found half a dozen mech/vac adv. dizzys in my shed whilst I was cleaning up during the week...I didn't even know I had them - It was like Christmas...so much interesting stuff!

Hopefully I will have a chance to try my experiment next weekend....

R 🙂

Would one sugest a oo9 or stock dizzy on a 1500 single port.

I noticed a very similar decline in performance of my 40hp in my old bug when a 009 was fitted - along with the dreaded flat spot. I did go back to the stock dizzy and was amazed at how much better it ran and accelerated.

I say 009 on stock engine (esp 1200) = poo-formance

On a 1500, I would be tempted to still stay with stock dizzy as well - if timed effectively there is no reason why the vac advance dizzy (stock) will be holding the "performance" of the 1500 back.

Hmm interesting thoughts here.
It is a common thing for legions of engine tuners/mechanics to add extra advance as some engines seem to respond well.
However, with the F-Vees, (1200cc) we find that advancing the ignition anything beyond 30Deg (total) altho making the engine idle very smoothly, simply kills mid range torque and high revs. I made a fundamental tuning error in my Vee which uses a Scat twin point dizzy where i re-set points thaqt had closed up down to 0.014" back to 0.020" and neglected to re-set the timing. needless to say the engine was a pig and I was being hosed by cars that i knew i could blow by easily. No amount of jetting or fiddling helped and as i had already set the timing (previous to altering the points dwell) on the morning of the race day, I never reconsidered that.........fewl!
it turned out to have about 36Deg of ignition and that was enough to simply kill the engine. It did idle very smoothly tho.............

To get them to make good midrange and top end power we retard the ignition, usually to 28Deg. @3000rpm. Much less than this results in them pulling a tree again.
The 1220 engines are surprisingly touchy to ignition advance but regardless of where the ignition is set, the very low down power remains pretty much unchanged Ie: not much!!

As suggested before, the total ignition advance may be waaay over 30 Deg and this seems to kill any mid-range punch which is the type of power you tend to "feel" (and miss)!

Try the timing light at 3000rpm option first before dismissing the mechanical advance distributers first.
L8tr
E

I've got a 009 in my 1600.. I will be replacing the 009 with stock dizzy, as I have noticed that there is some hesitation and it does flat spot now and then...

I have a 009 on my 36hp, 1500sp, 1600tp, and 2 1916's........................no probs. Although the best setup is always the factory one. !

BTY.
I used a 009 before the Scat twin point and another mechanical dizzy before that in my 2 vees and have never had a drama with flatspotting, at any RPM apart from dead cold as we remove the choke assemblies from the carbs.
L8tr
E

OK Volks,

I have spent a couple of hours over the last couple of days experimenting with my collection of dissys and this is what I have found:

Firstly, I checked the timing of my 009 that was already fitted. I had statically timed it in the past to the left hand side of the 'block' in the centre of the crankcase. Never checked the advance at revs. I used my flashy new timing light to see what the full advance figure was - exactly 30 deg! What a fluke!

I then advanced the timing (at revs) to 34 deg - couldn't really feel any difference around town, but once over 90km/h (our local stretch of freeway is 110km/h) the engine felt rough and lacked power. I did notice that the snap on/off when changing the throttle position was greatly reduced - perhaps this was a very minor flatspot?

I then created a vac only dissy from a collection of old dissys and fitted it to the car. I statically timed the ignition to the same place as I had done initially with the 009 (which is 7 deg for those of you who are interested) and turned the key. The engine ran incredibly smoothly at idle! Upon driving the car, it appeared to have plenty of power around town...except at full throttle. I wanted to take it out onto the freeway and give it a test, but unfortunatly the wiring to the condensor broke off as I was heading towards the freeway and I had to bodge it back together just to get home. I did notice (before the wiring broke) that the engine seamed to lack in its 'engine braking' capability - ie: it didn't slow down as fast....

Next I located a vac and mechanical advance dissy - one with both a vac advance and retard. It was complete and even the vac part was working. I fitted it and statically timed the ignition the same as mentioned above. The engine definatly ran smoother at idle than when the 009 was fitted, but was rougher than the vac only dissy. Around town the engine pulled strongly (as strong as a 1200 can :duh), and the change from on to off the throttle was smooth, unlike the 009. Once on the freeway I was faced with a headwind, however the engine happly pushed the car beyond the 110km/h speed limit and was still climbing when I backed off. It felt smooth and I feel drives much better than the 009.

Suffice to say that the 009 has ended up in my box of used dissys and the vac/mech dissy is still fitted.

There is one more dissy that I would like to try (one day) - a scat/mallory mech advance only dissy. It's missing the points, rotor button and cap, but I'm sure that this can all be found. Don't know if it would be any better than the vac/mech dissy that is fitted now, but it would still be interesting.

Just an interesting side note: Whilst I was doing all this experimenting I mentioned to my Brother (who works as a VW mechanic here on the Gold Coast) what my intensions were...not sure if he had had a bad day, but he told me in no uncertain terms (this is the editied, 'PG' version) that I was wasting my time with a dissy that uses a vac advance mech as it is very hard to find a working second hand unit and new ones are a crazy price here in Australia. He also said that if I was to go ahead with my time wasting experiment, then publish the results on the internet that I should make a point of saying that a working 009 will out perform any incorrectly operating vac/mech dissy....I doubt that any of you are that stupid that you would think otherwise, but there it is Dave, just for you!

(My Brother doen't own a computer so therefore will never see this, so feel free to say what you like about him! 😀)

So, after all that, is that what you expected to see?

Does anyone know where you can get a reasonably priced NEW vac/mech dissy? Are replacement vac units available for the vactory fitted units?

R 🙂

Good read Ratty
What you have determined here is what the F-Vee fraternity have known for about 40 years now is that the 1200cc stock engine is surprisingly touchy to ignition advance and the old fashioned thinking of "just wind her up a couple of degrees on stock" is just a red herring.

Secondly, Mallory/Scat dizzy parts are very common and quite cheap and available at just about any speed shop.
There are only 1 set of points and 1 rotor button for pretty much the entire range of points dizzies and there are only about 3 variations of dizzy cap for 4 cylinder dizzies.
I built mine with all the bits off the shelf here in Hobart.

An advantage of the Scat/Mallory is that you can alter your initial advance and centrifugal spring tensions for smoothest low down running and progression without affecting you maximum advance setting for higher speed running.

The Scat made the biggest difference to my Vee.

L8tr
E

Great read and info Ross.

I have a 009 in my twin port 1600 and a vac/mech advance in the boot which I am going to try aswell so it will be interesting to see if the same things happens .

Marc

my single port 1600 has a 009 and it was horrendous when i bought the thing. so far out of tune it wasnt funny but after rebuilding the carby and tuning it all nice and resetting points and doing timing it runs pretty well with no flat spot. however ive never had a different dissy on this engine before so i cant compare. my 1600 twin port engine runs great with its stock dissy but ive never had a 009 on it.

I was there when ross and dave where talking about this and ross you sugar coated that big time i think dave just says chuck a 009 in and be done with it cause i dont think he would intend on driving one for more than a work test run, you know what he's like it a type 4 or its a paper weight, good way to be really

I don't think anyone has mentioned compression ratios yet 😉

Midlife crisis wrote:Great read and info Ross.

I have a 009 in my twin port 1600 and a vac/mech advance in the boot which I am going to try aswell so it will be interesting to see if the same things happens .

Marc

Sounds interesting Marc, can't wait to see your results - I would also be interested to see what you max advance is currently with the 009.

What carb are you using with the 009?

R 🙂

i can t speak from experience just yet, but i have a 009 on my t4, with compufire dis-ix electronic ignition.

i have been told that an 050 is a better fit for my engine, and one day (cars not done yet) i would like to change the two over and compare.

i also have a msd billet, but thats another story (or engine....



..... just wait a few years)

...heres a giggle for you....

...in passing conversation last week my brother mentioned that he will be removing the 009 in his Baja (2.1 litre Type IV with FI) and replacing it with a vac/mech dissy because the 009 is causing the engine to ping and flat spot.... I still have the teeth marks in my tongue from biting it so that I didn't give him a serve after what he said to me...!

R 🙂

i got a 009 and a 30 pict on my 1600tp and i run a 009 on my 2Lt4 powered bug and have never had a problem

Glad to hear you bit your tougne hope it did not bled.

Marc

is a 010 the older style mech adance dissy???

Ellabella wrote:is a 010 the older style mech adance dissy???

my understanding is that the 010 is an aftermarket dissy that was similar to the 009, but a different advance curve - usually better suited to the Air cooled engines. I believe that they have not been available for some time now and this is why everyone is using 009's.

Feel free to correct me if this isn't correct....

R 🙂

Interesting..

Both my mechanic (one of the most well known VW mechanics in tassie), and the guy i bought the fastback wreck from, were trying to convince me i should be running a 009.

I've been stubborn, saying "If thats how it was designed, and how it should be, then why change it"
I felt like the idiot, now i feel like the smart one!😂

I tend to agree with you Jo_tas - the factory did things for a reason, and whilst new technology and research can make improvements, I'm not certain that the 009 is always an improvement.

Here is an interesting story though: My Brother recently changed my Grandmothers '68 Beetle from a vac/mech dissy to a 009 as he was having major problems with the engine pinging (its a fairly new 1600 engine now). This change cured the pinging problem, but now it wont idle smoothly when cold (something that I have noticed does happen when running a 009)....so perhaps the 009 does have its place on some engines.... I was particularly interesed in the smaller engines (1200's) as this is what I have in my '63.

In your situation; if your vac/mech dissy is still working OK, leave it alone (if it aint broke....😀)

R 🙂

VWCOOL wrote:I don't think anyone has mentioned compression ratios yet 😉

You jokers don't really think a 009 will work on a stocker... or do you?

Well there was nothing at all wrong with my distributor.. but they were still telling me i should have a 009... 🙅

And when the disitributor that came with the car (factory vacuum/mech advance) died due to the plate that the point screw to coming loose, i went out of my way and got one interstate from a very generous person from this board, free of charge. (name escapes me now.. sorry if you know who you are!)
Swapped over a few bits from my distributor, cleaned it all up, and now it runs very well, hasn't had a flat spot in the last 6-8 months and idles very smoothly, even when cold!

When we were going for a test run even my mechanic (a 009 man) was surprised at how much power it had for a stock 1600! Pulls very well when crusing along at 60mph and go to overtake.. can push you back in the seat and rush up to 70mph and beyond.. was passing someone the other day on a flat section of a 2 lane highway and before i knew it i was doing around 80mph.. lol..

009 on stock engines? WHY??? we're always praising those great german engineers.. so why not give them some credit and use what they intended for these engines!!

The "009 mechanic" probably wanted your old vac dizzy for himself

Well ive recently bought a new 1600TP import engine, whilst running a 009. There is a very noticeable flat spot off idle up to about 2200rpm. I had to return it to the mechanic about 3 times till it was driveable. Even then there was a noticable dull zone. I am thinking of purchasing a SVDA dizzy this weekend, so if i do, ill let you all know the difference it makes. (hopefully good)

I went and splurged $190 on the SVDA dizzy, and what a difference it makes.

Firstly, The engine is new and mostly stock, with completely rebuilt carbs. The only change is a slightly longer duration cam, but it is very very mild. After putting the new dizzy in and enjoying the experience of trying to statically time it without a notch on the dist rim, i managed to get it close enough. Anyway, i went for a drive and the difference was very noticable. Driveability A+++++. No flat spot at all and i can pull hills from a lower RPM a lot easier. I will attempt to time it more accurately this week but from what i have seen so far, i am very happy with my purchase!

(P.S Anyone got any ideas on how to statically time a dist with no markings on the dist rim???) 🤪)

I know the answer will make me feel suitably stupid.

72FASTY wrote:I went and splurged $190 on the SVDA dizzy, and what a difference it makes.

...where did you purchase that from as I wouldn't mind a new one!

Firstly, The engine is new and mostly stock, with completely rebuilt carbs. The only change is a slightly longer duration cam, but it is very very mild. After putting the new dizzy in and enjoying the experience of trying to statically time it without a notch on the dist rim, i managed to get it close enough. Anyway, i went for a drive and the difference was very noticable. Driveability A+++++. No flat spot at all and i can pull hills from a lower RPM a lot easier. I will attempt to time it more accurately this week but from what i have seen so far, i am very happy with my purchase!

Thats the exact same result as my 1200 in my '63 - drove it through the mountains behind the Gold Coast on Sunday (the first time it has not done highway work in a long time) and I was amazed - more torque from much lower in the rev range - only had to shift back to 2nd gear twice all day (both times when I had to slow going uphill for a 1600cc Beetle fitted with a 009! 😁 )

(P.S Anyone got any ideas on how to statically time a dist with no markings on the dist rim???) 🤪)

I know the answer will make me feel suitably stupid.

I'm going to answer this question with the little knowledge that I have (I am not a mechanic - only an enthusiast that does all his own work) - if anyone else would like to add to or correct what I have written - please do....

The mark on the distributor rim is the No 1 cylinder mark...if it isn't there, then there is not much you can do about it (it shouldn't make any difference as long as you get the ignition leads in the correct order (from what I have read))

Turn the engine over until it is at TDC on cylinder No 1 (the mark on the pully is at the top and in line with the centre join in the block), then turn it anti-clockwise until it lines up with the left hand side of the 'block' that is on the top of the case - this will give you about 7 degrees advance (this is where I set all my engines and it works fine for me - some people set the engines at 0 deg, but I find that my car will be sluggish if set at 0 deg - use a little trial and error to work out what works for your engine. Just make sure that it doesn't ping!)

OK, switch your ignition on (warning lights on, but engine not running) and take your trusty 12 volt test lamp and connect one end to a ground point and touch the probe to the coil terminal that the points wire is connected to. Hopefully the light should be off, however if it isn't, rotate the distributor anti-clockwise until it is (and then a little further).

Now, with the test lamp still connected slowly turn the distributor clockwise. Stop when (as soon as) the test lamp illuminates. Tighten the distributor clamp (ensuring that the distributor does not turn as you tighten the clamp) - Your engine is now statically set at 7 degrees advance.

Does this help? I can post pics (like a how to) if it would make it clearer...

R 🙂

hey rossco,

I got mine from Micks Motors in brissy. I think it was $192.50 inc GST.

That sounds like what i was thinking about doing the other day re: timing it. However, i went out and purchased a timing strobe, and set it to around 30 at full advance. It feels a tiny bit more sluggish than what it was before i timed it properely (it was waaaaaay too advanced), so i might go a tiny bit further and see how that goes. As youve probably read elsewhere, the general consensus among VW gods seems to be that you should time them at full advance (3500prm ish) then let the static advacne fall where it may (typically 5-10 degrees). Experimenting with different advances will give me the best result no doubt.

Still poo's all over the 009 tho! 😁

Wow... talk about a good read! Why haven't I looked in this section earlier?

I'm wanting electronic ignition in my Beetle, it has a vac-advance dizzy. Wouldn't go near a 009, even more so after reading this thread! But I'm sure with tuning etc, they'd work good.

Mick motors hey, looks like I had better add a new one to my list of stuff to get from them next time I am up there!

PBB, the 009 definatly does have its place in the VW world, just not in stock standard engines (in my opinion 🙂 ) - the idea of going to an electronic ignition is a good one - no points = one less thing to adjust/wear out/replace. I would go to an electronic ignition module too, but as far as I know they don't make them for 6 volt cars (and my Baja is EFI with full engine management - in other words, the engine computer controls the spark timing!)

It's interesting to see that I am not the only person that had just been 'putting-up' with the 009 distributors....

Cheers all,

R 🙂

I put the SVDA I had in the 1600TP but sadly the dissy was not much good, The shaft moves up and down by about 15 mm and does not return all the way back after advancing. I put it in anyway and the BAJA pinged really bad and ran s%$t House so I will have to save up to buy a new SVDA, because I like the idea of duel advance and reading whats happened in this thread seems the way to go.

Marc

[ Edited on 4-11-05 by Midlife crisis ]