install was pretty straightforward, only had to relocate 1 screw that interfered with the oil filter line.
Also shortened the oil pickup line inside the sump with 5 cm.
the sump now doesn't come any lower then the exhaust manifold
ruckus ·
Nice work!
MikeM ·
got any before shots to show the change in depth?
72RSbug ·
Sorry, no before pics.
with the stock sump the engine sat entirely on the sump when it was on a wooden crate and I had to put some wood underneat it under the exhaust to keep it stable.
Now its stable as it is, it rests on both the sump and the exhaust since they now are the same depht.
ricola ·
From the side on picture the sump looks higher than the exhaust. What about the oil filter? That is my main concern with shortening. The guy on vwrx.com has relocated his filter which sounds like a good idea.
Rich
72RSbug ·
well there might be a small difference between the sump (has a little more clearance) and the exhaust but I don't think it's more then 1cm.
forgot to put on the new oil filter actually, but I think it doesn't come any lower then than the new sump.
Jenny ·
Ooh thats nice, can't wait for mine to arrive!
boof2332 ·
Unless you are going off road, I do not think the filter will be a problem....If your concerned put a little skid plate under it, although I havnt heard of anyone damaging theirs on a street car yet.....
Matt
Humby ·
Nice job!👍
Greetz,
Humby😎
Jenny ·
The sumps have arrived!
A lot of work involved in making these. They are two separate pieces, so 3 surfaces have had to be machined flat then holes drilled and tapped to attach. They also have two plates welded in the base to prevent frothing/starvation at the pickup tube.
The sump weighs about 4.5kg including the hex socket cap screws that were supplied. This is about 2.2kg heavier than the original Subaru item, which weighs about 2.3kg.
Total cost worked out to be about $415, and that was after 'sharing' the funds transfer bank fee ($35!!) and shipping fee (82 euro) with Ratbag. Note, this was at the *special* price of 200 euro each. The normal price is 250 euro.
Will try and get some pics over the weekend.nn[ Edited on 8-9-2005 by Jenny ]
seagull ·
when are we going to the kit car Jenny 🙂
Jenny ·
yes, here you go, a pic of the Subaru item next to the alloy one
Jenny ·
and another
Jenny ·
here's the 'before' shot
Jenny ·
and 'after'
Jenny ·
you need to shorten the oil pick-up tube. i also had tho attack the bracket with the grinder to clearance the suchion head. I guess the pick-up is that short now you could probably take the bracket off all together...
and recalibrate you oil dip stick by filling it with 3.25 litres of oil and marking the lower mark then filling it to 4.25 litres and marking the high mark.
Jak Rizzo ·
Hi Jenny,
Can u tell me what capacity the new sump is, the standard one takes 5 litres of oil up to the brim, any idea what the new alloy one takes?
regards
Jak
ricola ·
Great pics Jenny! 👍
Rich
bugat5speed ·
Hi Jenny,
thanks for the pictures here. Now it seems, that you have to shorten the exhaust headers to get more ground clearance. What kind of car is this? Is it a Buggy, or a very flat sportscar-kit?
You will see, that besides the optic improvement the sump will give your engine much better cooling properties.
Hi Jak,
the capacity of oil-fillment is 4.25 litres (as Jenny mentioned above). Capacity of the original sump might be 5 liters, but only 4.5 litres are filled in. If you fill in more, then the oil might swash up in well driven curves. So it really makes no big sense to fill in 5 litres.
Most shortened sumps only have a capacity of between 3.5 and less than 4 litres. And they will not cool down the oil as well as my sump does.
Cheers Martin
Jak Rizzo ·
I put 5 litres in mine when I change the filter as well, but yes it normally only takes 4.55 litres. I'd really like to get one but I'm a little concerned about the capacity, with my car doing track time as well, I would like a little more oil in it. The wrx boys that put their cars on the track all go for 6-8 litre sumps to prevent oil starvation.
Have u thought of making one with even more capacity?
I understand the constraints that u have with making it shorter as well as bigger.
regards
Jak
jvl054 ·
Thats true Jako:thumb.... Most of you are shortening your sumps but not putting the compacity or volume of oil back in.Running 3.5l of oil is not a save way to go:o.My sump holds 6L...then a extra 3L for a SETRAD OIL COOLER....Think about a Yacht(boat)with the wing set up...thats how mine is set up.JVLRacing
bugat5speed ·
I could myke a further partition wall at an angle of 90 degrees between the two others, but I think that´s not necessary. Because the oil is swashing to the back of the car and that´s where the inlet of the oil tube is near to. That means the faster you accelerate, the more oil is there, where it should be.
My colleague´s Turbo 1303 is driven very hard, but there is no problem at all.
The temperature of the engine with 4,25 liters and the aluminium cast oilsump is very very good, even if it´s hot and you are driving the car very hard. I don´t see the necessity to carry another 2-3 litres extra.
Jak Rizzo ·
But what do u consider very hard? I consider very hard, 15 minutes of flat out track driving with the rev range between 3000-7000rpm & constantly on boost. I would have thought that driving on the freeway flat out & driving on the track flat out with curves & braking & accellerating forces thrown inwould be 2 different types of hard driving?
Have u had any of these sumps on the track or are they aimed primarily at hot Street cars.?
regards
Jak
Jenny ·
Martin, the kit car is a Eureka, based on the Eurepean Nova, and yes modifying something tends to have a ripple effect but the exhaust was a 'free' bonus that came with my O2 sensor and is yet to be modified.
Jak, here is a pic of the re-calibrated dipstick.
I shortened the oil pickup tube about 44mm (1 3/4"). On the original setup it sat about 10mm off the bottom and now it sits 5mm off the bottom. I didn't measure the capacity of the new sump so I can't tell you the maximum it can hold, but I'm guessing you could probably add a bit more than 4.25L.
[ Edited on 6-10-2005 by Jenny ]
[ Edited on 6-10-2005 by Jenny ]
jvl054 ·
Boys,think outside the square!!! oil must be kept cool...more oil the better.A subie sump runs 5Lapprox.How much oil is getting sucked up while driving ,lubing the moving parts!!!! what happens when the oil pickup tube is starving to pickup any extra oil?This is why the subie sump is designed to hold the right compacity......JVLRacing..............Jenny love the car!
So I don't think the capacity is an issue for normal use if you keep the level topped up it will still be well above the minimum 3.5L level, but I can't really comment about the suitability for a turbo motor being driven under race conditions.
[ Edited on 7-10-2005 by Jenny ]
bugat5speed ·
2 hours on the Nürburgring at top speed is what I understand of hard driving. And there you do not only drive straight forward, but also high speed in long curves.
AMR in the UK is using the sumps for track racing. The oil tube is normally very far to the front of the original oilsump, as the Subaru sump is angular in the front. By shortening it for my sump it´s coming back very far to the back of the sump. That means, there is really no chance, that it will get out of oil. If that happens you have the oil up in the housing and the crankshaft would mix it up likea mixer.
Be aware: my products only get into the market, when they are well tested!!!l
jvl054 ·
bugat5speed wrote:2 hours on the Nürburgring at top speed is what I understand of hard driving. And there you do not only drive straight forward, but also high speed in long curves.
AMR in the UK is using the sumps for track racing. The oil tube is normally very far to the front of the original oilsump, as the Subaru sump is angular in the front. By shortening it for my sump it´s coming back very far to the back of the sump. That means, there is really no chance, that it will get out of oil. If that happens you have the oil up in the housing and the crankshaft would mix it up likea mixer.
Be aware: my products only get into the market, when they are well tested!!!l
JVLRacing:thumb
reub ·
Got my sump today from Ratbug (aka Andrew).
I can see the work involved in these but am a little disappointed in the casting quality. Hopefully this improves with time. Just as well my car is low so people won't be getting underneath looking for detail. Will help alot just the same.
Apologies if I sound harsh, just doesn't look as good in person, probably like my car :o
72RSbug ·
casting isn't superb but but it's "pretty" enough for what it is intended for. I myself have thought about polishing the sump but after just having done my set of 18" BBS Le Mans wheels I think I'll take a brake from polishing.
jvl054 ·
reub-revhead wrote:Got my sump today from Ratbug (aka Andrew).
I can see the work involved in these but am a little disappointed in the casting quality. Hopefully this improves with time. Just as well my car is low so people won't be getting underneath looking for detail. Will help alot just the same.
Apologies if I sound harsh, just doesn't look as good in person, probably like my car :o
Send it back,nothing worst if not happy with a product and pay good money for.JVLRacing
reub ·
jvl054 wrote:Send it back,nothing worst if not happy with a product and pay good money for.JVLRacing
Nah, it'll be ok. Saves me having to go through the pain of shortening a standard sump, and I've got it now.
ricola ·
I'm surprised you need to shorten your sump with the engine that high Reub!
You have U2U 😉
Rich
reub ·
ricola wrote:I'm surprised you need to shorten your sump with the engine that high Reub!
You have U2U 😉
Rich
Yeah, but have you seen the height of my car? I've got about 110mm clear to the sump currently and a little more clearance would give piece of mind.....
Here is a pic of the sump. To the right hand side you can see holes that return underneath. I trust there are no air bubbles in the casting other than the external ones.
[ Edited on 19-10-2005 by reub-revhead ]
Jenny ·
I've gone over mine with the sander to give it that 'milled finish' look and I'm quite happy with that, but yes it would take a lot of effort to get a polished finish.
bugat5speed ·
@reub-revhead:
Hi, the sumps are sand-casted. By this they are a little more rough, than casted in a steel mould. But for the quantities casted it´s the only economical way to do it. A price of 600 - 700 Euro would definitely not be accepted. What you see on the picture are no bubbles. And it should not concern you. The fins in the sand mould sometimes break out a little by taking the mould out of the sand. Then it happens that there is a little grinding mark in the sumps. Don´t worry, that it is leaking there. I test all sumps before they are sent out. And be sure, those which took the long way to AUS are doublechecked. Besides it would be the first leaking sump that I ever had.
@jvl054: What´s the problem, that you ask customers to send back my products. Have you got a problem with my sumps, or is it only so, that due to language barriers I do missunderstand you? If it is so, then I do appologize. If not, then please stop this!
Cheers Martin
[ Edited on 20-10-2005 by bugat5speed ]
jvl054 ·
bugat5speed wrote:@reub-revhead:
Hi, the sumps are sand-casted. By this they are a little more rough, than casted in a steel mould. But for the quantities casted it´s the only economical way to do it. A price of 600 - 700 Euro would definitely not be accepted. What you see on the picture are no bubbles. And it should not concern you. The fins in the sand mould sometimes break out a little by taking the mould out of the sand. Then it happens that there is a little grinding mark in the sumps. Don´t worry, that it is leaking there. I test all sumps before they are sent out. And be sure, those which took the long way to AUS are doublechecked. Besides it would be the first leaking sump that I ever had.
@jvl054: What´s the problem, that you ask customers to send back my products. Have you got a problem with my sumps, or is it only so, that due to language barriers I do missunderstand you? If it is so, then I do appologize. If not, then please stop this!
Cheers Martin
[ Edited on 20-10-2005 by bugat5speed ]
Martin,I think your sumps are okay:thumb and you are having a go.I think you have missunderstood me:o no doubt.Looking at your earlier pictures of your sumps...the casting is perfect.Last one that ive just seen on here and commented on was no where near the quality of the others....Lets put the shoe on the other foot,would you be happy to have that!..or are you happy to sell that and hear comments like this!..This is your creditation Martin...JVLRacing
[ Edited on 20/10/2005 by jvl054 ]
2443TT ·
bugat5speed wrote:@reub-revhead:
Hi, the sumps are sand-casted. By this they are a little more rough, than casted in a steel mould. But for the quantities casted it´s the only economical way to do it. A price of 600 - 700 Euro would definitely not be accepted. What you see on the picture are no bubbles. And it should not concern you. The fins in the sand mould sometimes break out a little by taking the mould out of the sand. Then it happens that there is a little grinding mark in the sumps. Don´t worry, that it is leaking there. I test all sumps before they are sent out. And be sure, those which took the long way to AUS are doublechecked. Besides it would be the first leaking sump that I ever had.
@jvl054: What´s the problem, that you ask customers to send back my products. Have you got a problem with my sumps, or is it only so, that due to language barriers I do missunderstand you? If it is so, then I do appologize. If not, then please stop this!
Cheers Martin
[ Edited on 20-10-2005 by bugat5speed ]
Hey man don't take it personally. I fully understand where JVL054 is coming from... I can't tell you how many times i've bought aftermarket VW products that turned out to be that badly manufacturerd I couldn't possibly use them on my car.
That being said, I'm sure that a lot of other people have no problem with stuff I consider to be junk.
I can think if carbs, disc brake systems, endless amounts of chrome trim, the list goes on.... All stuff that was that badly made, or fitted that badly it was a joke!
In the end what it all comes down to when your building a customised car, if you don't like the quality of something you've bought you will ALWAYS end up haivng to replace it down the track, so why pay twice.
Dam I'd love to list some brand names here, but I doubt EMPI or SCAT read the Aussie vee dubbers forum...
bugat5speed ·
Hey boys,
to bring this discussion to an end from my side. The oilsumps Jenny or 72RSbug have are of the same quality like the one reub-revhead has received. They all look like that one on the surface. The one reub-revhead has, has a small flaw in a clearance between two fins. You will never see it. Only if you lay under the car and if you are in the very same direction like these two fins, that are left and right of the grinding mark. Each 3rd or 4th of my sumps has such a little flaw. It´s very tricky to cast these fins in a sand casting process. The sand easily breaks óut, when you take the model out of the mould (sand).
None of my sumps ever had leakages due to bubbles in the casted material. Each sump fits perfectly to the bolt pattern of the Subaru engine.
Perhaps Jenny and 72RSbug will give a final comment on their impressions of the sumps.
All the reworked original and shortened Subaru sumps that I´ve ever seen mainly look unprofessional and if you have such a thing on your car, then you can start discussing about optical problems. Most comments I´ve yet heard from customers were of satisfied nature.
Don´t want to leave a bit of a bad taste on my sumps.
Cheers Martin
Jak Rizzo ·
HI Martin, can u give us some pics or a link of the vw that runs around the Numbring track, I'd really like to see it.
regards
Jak
jvl054 ·
bugat5speed wrote:Hey boys,
to bring this discussion to an end from my side. The oilsumps Jenny or 72RSbug have are of the same quality like the one reub-revhead has received. They all look like that one on the surface. The one reub-revhead has, has a small flaw in a clearance between two fins. You will never see it. Only if you lay under the car and if you are in the very same direction like these two fins, that are left and right of the grinding mark. Each 3rd or 4th of my sumps has such a little flaw. It´s very tricky to cast these fins in a sand casting process. The sand easily breaks óut, when you take the model out of the mould (sand).
None of my sumps ever had leakages due to bubbles in the casted material. Each sump fits perfectly to the bolt pattern of the Subaru engine.
Perhaps Jenny and 72RSbug will give a final comment on their impressions of the sumps.
All the reworked original and shortened Subaru sumps that I´ve ever seen mainly look unprofessional and if you have such a thing on your car, then you can start discussing about optical problems. Most comments I´ve yet heard from customers were of satisfied nature.
Don´t want to leave a bit of a bad taste on my sumps.
Cheers Martin
Martin,My dad(30year exp) is a Moulder and i use to just watch how they pulled out there plugs.Dad use to say WATER and COMPRESSION of the sand is the key to a good mould.If ther looked like air pockets in the mould they would break them up.....MARTIN you quoted most sumps look unproffessional....well mind doesnt look shiney like yours,but holds more oil and Baffled to stop oil surge.with a mod pick up....Thers no bad taste here on your sumps Cheers JVLRacing
Jenny ·
OF the two sumps that I received, the one I sent to Andrew was the 'worst' because he said his was going on his buggy and it would probably get bashed up a bit anyway, unfortunately it didn't fit due to his crossmember so he sold it on to Reub.
You can see from the picture I posted previously that mine does not have the casting marks on the fins. I'm certainly happy with it and believe I got what I payed for: an alloy sump that bolts up to the Suby motor and gives increased ground clearance for my lowslung Eureka with pleasing asthetics. Granted it is not show quality but then again if I'd wanted that I would have spent $1200 and bought the one from MRT Rally.
Louis ·
bugat5speed wrote:jvl054: Have you got a problem with my sumps, or is it only so, that due to language barriers I do missunderstand you?
It's not just the language barrier. Many native English speakers have no idea what he is on about half the time.
bugat5speed wrote:All the reworked original and shortened Subaru sumps that I´ve ever seen mainly look unprofessional
Amen!
[ Edited on 6-11-2005 by Louis ]
jvl054 ·
So louis,what dont i know ?JVLRacing
Dasdubber ·
Congratulations VDubya (Louis) on continuing with your constructive input - and you wonder why your posts get edited??
MickH ·
a
axel77 ·
I would like to bring up a point that I think is being overlooked here with shortening of sumps, the one of oil height in relation to the crank. It is all well and good to raise the level of the base, weld on wings (or cast a new shape) but looking at the recalibrated dipstick in Jenny's car, and mine also I got to thinking about how much closer the top level of the oil got to the engine. Having worked in the V8 supercar industry, and having manufactured sumps that were designed with mesh scrapers and baffles, installed in order to stop the considerable horsepower losses that occur when high speed cranks smack into a body of oil, I wonder if this aspect is being ignored especially under cornering. When I made my sump, I was very aware to keep the 4.5L oil level below the original tinware intact near the top of the sump in an attempt to overcome this. Its been a while, but I also seem to remember there being tinware above the sump mating face on the engine also? I'd be interested to hear peoples opinion on this, especially COR and bugspeed and anyone in the motor racing industry.
Cheers, Axel.
seagull ·
I am looking at dry sumping mine as seen in some of the small planes about on the net .I have emailed a guy in the usa who has built a suabru turbo plane , he has a great set up .
The water cooled oil cooler set up on the RS / WRX motors are also low for the vw set up , I would like to move that as well .
Most of the makers of these sumps over look the need of baffels & windage trays .
I did hear a few of the off roaders over here in Perth have damaged motors due to lack of oil pick up
seagull ·
If some one has a great idea and has a pattern , I do high quality castings in my factory in Tiwan I would need some numbers to get a run done , say 40 uints
GeorgeL ·
axel77 wrote:I would like to bring up a point that I think is being overlooked here with shortening of sumps, the one of oil height in relation to the crank. It is all well and good to raise the level of the base, weld on wings (or cast a new shape) but looking at the recalibrated dipstick in Jenny's car, and mine also I got to thinking about how much closer the top level of the oil got to the engine.
That's a good point. I wonder how close the crank throws come to the oil level when the engine is subject to the accelerations of driving and cornering. I wouldn't be too concerned with a bus installation, but if you're going to throw a converted bug or kit car around you could get oil starvation.
Subaru engineers did a prudent thing by making the sump as deep as possible for their stock application, and when we redesign their sumps we have to be sure that we won't be starving our engines for oil.
Getting equal capacity is one thing, but if all the oil is stuck in one of the "wings" by cornering it could be a problem. You might be better off with a narrower sump of less capacity!
George
rubyred ·
Why complicate things more with a dry sump? I mean, you can only squish the engine so much. After shortening the sump, its quite obvious that the headers are the limiting point. If you use the Subaru brand oil filters, which are shorter than the normal ones, the headers are still the lowest point.
And on the topic of oil height in relation to the crank. I think what he means is that, regardless of the wings, if you have to rescribe your dipstick, your oil level is in fact closer to the crank than stock.
i have a shortened sump, but, i have been looking into the idea of raising the engine into the car. The offroad guys do it all the time. Keep the front tranny at the same mount, but raise the rear mount, at the framehorns. Companys already make 1 inch lift mounts, so im probably going to try that out.
-Ryan
[ Edited on 7/9/2006 by rubyred ]
gull ·
I have a set of flat headers
stock oil filter
+ its ok for you if you have a notch , wagon , or buggy , but how can one lift a motor in a bug ? I have my shifter going on top of my tunnel & I have a 091 box
1303Steve ·
Hi
Something that has crossed my mind is that we are in fact running the motor and sump backwards, something the Subaru engineers didnt consider. I have raised my motor 25 mm, I hope that this enough to allow me to keep the stock sump.
Steve
GeorgeL ·
I'm also pondering the idea of lifting the rear of the engine to allow the use of the stock sump. In a bus there is quite a bit of room above the engine. I think that the first interference point is the transmission bell housing against the body under the fuel tank.
George
rubyred ·
gull wrote:I have a set of flat headers
stock oil filter
+ its ok for you if you have a notch , wagon , or buggy , but how can one lift a motor in a bug ? I have my shifter going on top of my tunnel & I have a 091 box
stock front mount means shift linkage dosnt change. I would think it would be harder in a notch than a bug considering you guys cut out your firewalls. I have a trunk a couple inches above my turbo.
-Ryan
malcolm ·
steve you can lift the motor in a bug as long as you move it forward like you have ,I have moved my gearbox 75mm forward and lifted it 25-30mm higher so the diff housing is protected by the gearbox folks .