Engine building and combos - a chat not an argument!

Over the past 12 months I've discovered that engine building is quite fun.

I've also discovered that the difficulty lies in coming up with a good combination.

The building bit is fun and it's satisfying to check and measure everything so you know it's going to be right. It's also nice to keep in the back of your mind that all your hard work should pay off.

Another fun thing to do is research your engine specifications. There are so many schools of thought and engine combinations that it just makes the mind boggle.

I'll tell you my story and you can read it if you're bored.

I had a reasonably stong engine of the Stan Pobjoy philosopy that I was quite happy with. I pulled it apart to replace the worn heads and see if the rings and bearings needed a freshen up.

I'd thought I'd go a bit further by replacing the camshaft to something with just a little bit more lift.

The funny thing is that wanting more is such a trap. I've heard lots of stories about people who've just pushed a combination too far upset things. I've now done it twice.

The first mistake I made was with valve size. I thought bigger has got to be better and went wth some 44mm inlet valves on some street eliminator heads. They were fine for about 1000 kms then the valve springs gave up and I started floating the valves at 6000 rpm. We shimmed them up at a hillclimb. We did it in a motel car park in the rain! That was only good for 500 kms then the valves started floating again. I went through another set of valve springs before deciding to get some mild, small valve heads and avoid that problem in the future.

Interestingly enough I got 10% more power on the dyno out of 044s with 40 x 35 heads on 10:1 compression than I did with the big valve street eliminators on 9.5:1 compression.

This engine combo was good for 88 rear wheel horsepower and a 14.9 second quarter at WISID in my oval with a full size pulley.

The 044s were old and were brought back to life only for temporary service.

After 2 years of supersprints, drags and street driving I ended up replacing them with some aircooled.net level 5 heads ported and polished by some DRD bloke. I was disappointed when I saw them becasue the ports looked small. They are simply mini D ports and are standard size except where the O goes into the D. But the attention to detail is really impressive on not only the heads but on the manifolds I got at the same time.

My second mistake was the cam and lifter change. The refreshed engine with the new heads and Webcam 109 felt strong. Previously I had to get right up the engine even before I let out the clutch to make it perform. The new combination had more torque. You could cruise along and put your foot into it and it would just take off. Im not sure whether that's the portwork, the taller manifolds, 0.5mm extra lift or the combination.

I say could because it only lasted 2 supersprints and 1500 kilometers before the lifters stopped spinning and wore badly. I thought I did the right thing using reground original lifters and not the after-market rubbish.

I've looked on a lot of engine building forums to try and get to the bottom of the cam and lifter wear problem and let me tell you it's a hot topic. I've considered going to and engle cam with standard lifters. Or getting another webcam but this time with the recommended SLR treated lifters. I've considered using CB performance cam and matching lifters. Each time I've wondered if I should push the combo a little bit more with some extra duration or lift, but then I woke up to myelf.

Just go with something that's proven instead of optimistically thinking I'm going to come up with the magic combo. I don't have time for that! I missed 3 races this year because I was pissing about with my engine. Now I think I'm just going to put the old steroid cam and lifters back in the engine because they copped 3 years of punishment and still look great.

With a bullet proof combination in my oval perhaps I can build something ridiculous just for fun.

Has anyone else got a suggestion for a bullet proof combination that's good for circuit racing and still has a VW logo on it and doesn't need coolant?

Gosh what a long post. I don't know what came over me.

CYA CT

What about steel cams??

Actually you should chat to Ryan (RCB78) on SBO and Shoptalk.
He has a 1916 as well and has had some of the same problems. He is/was running Level 6 AC.net heads but the ones from AJ not DRD

Apparently he is getting big power from it, but has gone through some cams.
"Something" happened last time and John C. "fixed" things - never really got the full story

Here is a list of hotties
http://www.geocities.com/enginecookbook/menu.htm

Ryans is listed there but it is like 5y old as it was a mild 1776 then




[ Edited on 13-10-2005 by Bizarre ]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it, huh...

Hi Barry,

My cam didn't wear it just got scored a bit, it was surprisingly little when you see how much it wore away the lifters. The problem was with the lifters. Or should I say it was with compatibility which may be machining angles or metal hardness.

Hi Glenn,

If it ain't broke don't fix it? Shouldn't that be; If it ain't broke you can still piss about modifying it?

I've got another lesson. Brand names don't make you go faster. I also found out that my 009 distributor made more horsepower with a better curve than a more expensive mallory dizzy. Luckily I borrowed that one. I don't believe totally in dyno numbers. It just confirmed that to me that it didn't feel any better than the 009.

CYA CT

P.S How's the article coming on Glenn?

[ Edited on 13-10-2005 by fullnoise ]

[ Edited on 13-10-2005 by fullnoise ]

While not going through as many engines as some people seem to. I am currently getting specs together for a 2000CC max race engine. I went to a good VW engine builder last time, and he put together a really awesome street/motorkhana combo. Good spread of torque and also revs to 6k. But i have flogged that to bits, as i have been running it in sprints/hillclimb/autocross etc something that it wasn't made to do.

I would be very interested in combo's other poeple are running, i have also drivewn a very hypo 1300CC beetle, and found that to be nice, but not sure if it has enough torque for rally, as it ran a k8 cam. so many decisions so little money 🙁

Was that Guy Hardings Targa Tasmania beetle? That had a high revving 1300 in it from memory. That concept seems kind of Italian.

I think Dave Becker has an interesting engine that puts out lots of grunt. He's put his engine combo on here before.

How many other people on here have had a go at a decent engine?

Has anyone got IDAs, competition eliminator heads or exotic parts in their engine?

CYA CT:vader

That motor of Super Steve's has some mumbo!

Come on a bit high though.
Fire crackers at 5kish

Nice thread, I will be watching with interest. I'd love to play with engine combos, but time, money and other interests styfle that one.

I can see why people turn to the watery side, especially if they've tried several combos and had similar problems as you describe above CT.

Yep, it's a real art-form, to be able to build great combos that are proven to last and last.

FWIW, someone posted a link to a site that gave the following "mechanical redlines" depending upon stroke length.

69mm stroke = 8440 redline
74mm = 7860
76mm = 7625
78mm = 7600
82mm = 7080
84mm = 6910
86mm = 6745

[ Edited on 14-10-2005 by 56astro ]

When i build a decent size stroker its sure as hell going to rev harder than those redlines! built to go, not to last!

So there'd be no warranty with your engines then??

That'd make it a very expensive hobby.

' Or getting another webcam but this time with the recommended SLR treated lifters.'


I reckon you are on the money there. New cams can be made outa lots of different content metals and new compatible hardness/metals in the lifters. Face angle can be different too.

Kinda like having the right compound brake pads for your rotor type.

I think there is two parts of this discussion.

1/ What is the mechanically sweet combo's

and

2/ What combo has the best go.


The trick is blending 1 and 2 to fit budget and desired result.

Thats where Stan-the-man and many others have the experiences to know what works and what doesn't.

kkk

Hey CTTander,xxxxa good topic,Ill start of with a combo that i was going to race with before diciding to do before a T4.(now Subie).......Engine 2087cc....44IDF webbers....4063 bugpack camshaft....Scat manifiolds....82mm scat crank....vw rods with 90.5mm Cima barrels & Pistons...Heads with 40/37valves and ported.When i worked this out about 10year ago the compression would of been about 9.93:1. The spark use 009.....A good over maybe 140 to 160hp@6500....(note) ill will stand corrected on these figures....JVLRacing

[ Edited on 15/10/2005 by jvl054 ]

[ Edited on 15/10/2005 by jvl054 ]

It's easy to marry the parts together on paper but it's harder to make them fit in the engine.

The webcam had a larger base circle and larger lobes than my previous cam. I realised when I was putting it in that I only just had the 1mm clearence between to lobe at full lift and the lifter when it was seated in the bore. If I didn't have reground lifters I wouldn't have had the required clearence and the lifter bores would need to be machined. So you can buy a cam that a lot of people are talking about on forums but it won't necessarily fit in a standard case with a set of new lifters. Nobody seems to mention that.

I was considering a ratio rocker cam because they look to have a more gentle profile. However I still want to use alloy pushrods to keep the valve train light. Now, does a 1.4:1 ratio rocker put 127% more pressure on the pushrods and cam? It's multiplying the lift on one side but it's also multiplying the spring pressure by the same amount isn't it?

With that in mind is a cam and lifter wear more likely on ratio rocker cams?

Thanks for posting your proposed combo JVL. Tell us why this would have been your choice.

Perhaps I can kick things off with a couple of questions:
1. My heads are 40 x 35. Would a 2mm bigger exhaust valve make much difference?
2. What lift and duration is that bugpack camshaft and what lifters were you going to use? I like bugpak valve springs but I got their street eliminators and matched manifolds but the ports didn't line up. The were 2mm to one side.
3.I don't know much about engines and especially strokers but would there be a rod clearence problem or rod ratio problem with such a big crank and standard rods?

Let's keep the combos coming but you need to explain your choice for interest not criticism.

CYA CT

56astro wrote:So there'd be no warranty with your engines then??

That'd make it a very expensive hobby.

Who needs a warranty? Ii thought this already was a very expensive hobby!

Hi CT,choice factor....reliable and still pokie and torqure toget out of corners quicker....Q1Yes breathing is the key to anybetter performance using swivel feet with solids.....Q2not 100% 418lift 294dur (I will double check???? )scat lifters lighten....Q3machining will need to be done.....CT are you using chevy dual springs? if not buy them.JVLRacing

Hmmmm,i was thinking of staying out of this until i was a bit further along, BUT i just cant help myself,im gathering parts for a stroker ive got everything roughly priced at $9300,so far ive got a new mag case,new CB 82mm crank,DRLA 48 tri-jets with 40 vents,Mallory Unilite i havnt got the spring kit yet,and an 1 5/8 side facing header from A-1 should be sailing my way as we speak,so im into about $3000 with another 6-7 to go,theres no labour in these costs so machining and ballancing are additional.Anyway this is MY combo.
1. 2276 = 94 x 82
2.FK-8
3.42 x 37 AJs or DRD heads
4.9.5:1 comp
5.48 DRLA tri-jets 40 vents
6.1 5/8 side facing headers by A-1
7.CB 5.4" H beam rods with ARP 2000 bolts
8.Kennedy stage 1 with Daiken disc
9.CE straight cuts
10.H.D. alloy push rods
11.26mm Shadeck pump full flowed
12.Schubeck composite lifters
13.Mallory Unilite with spring kit
14.CB or Berg 1.4 ratio rockers
15.German flywheel lightened reground
16.36 horse doghouse shroud
17.Berg fan
18.Static ballanced pistons pins rings rods
19.Dynamically ballanced crank flywheel cluctch pulley gears.
So there u have it,should be all sitting on my bench end of 06,after that i need another $2400 for a Pro-street box,steady fellas i bruise easilly :kiss

[ Edited on 16-10-2005 by lugnuts ]

Bugpack 4063-10 adv dur 296',dur at 0.050 268' lift at valve 0.430,its eqiv to an engle 130 with .030 less lift.:thumb

lugnuts wrote:Bugpack 4063-10 adv dur 296',dur at 0.050 268' lift at valve 0.430,its eqiv to an engle 130 with .030 less lift.:thumb

Thanks lugnuts...JVLRacing

Bugger I just wrote a long post and it was deleted by my cat walking on the keyboard. Is that bad luck?

Briefly I wrote:

Nice combo lugnuts. I hope the expense pays off and you get it right first time. Jak's 2276 K8 engine was impressive but it really needed the heads you're going to put on yours.

Tell me about the shubeks and the Mallory.

JVL, don't give me the generic "breathe better line". Do you think with all else being equal that a 1.5mm increase in exhaust valve diameter would increase horsepower like it theoretically would on the inlet side? Remember at the start of the post I mentioned that i got more HP out of 40mm inlets than 44s.

That bugpak cam might work well in my engine (next time). My DRD heads are good for .450 to .500 lift and the bugpak cam would get .488 with 1.25:1 rockers. The webcam was .460 with 1.1s and .520 with 1.25s. I checked this but it came close to coil bind. That's why they suggested up to .500 with the descripiton on the heads. Do bugpak do matching lifters?

Why does everything seem to be a variation of an engle cam?

CYA CT

Hi,well what can i say, Mallory bit disappointed in the quality the pin in the shafts a bit loose timing will wander unless i go oversize onit,the rest is just what ive heard adjustable advance start and stop with diff advance curves available through the use of diff springs in the spring kit,grey and grey are supposed to be the go.Lifters well there an extravagance on my part,brought about through all the diff flat cam and lifter stories on STF and Callook forums,dosnt seem like theres a pattern to the failures all kinds of cams and lifters and spring pressures as well as run in procedures even the SLR treated lifters can wipe out,so this is my answer to the problem it has no guarantee to work either but its the best i can do,its recommended to bush the lifter bores in a mag case before running ceramics but i think ile try without first and if it gets noisey i can always pullit and bush it,if u have an alluminium case bushing is not needed,OR SO IVE HEARD.Will be getting a bung installed on my header for an oxygen sensor,should make dialling it in much easier when i get my O2 meter :thumb http://www.schubeckracing.com/mushroomlifters.html http://www.lnengineering.com/lifters.htm :kiss

[ Edited on 16-10-2005 by lugnuts ]

[ Edited on 16-10-2005 by lugnuts ]

fullnoise wrote:JVL, don't give me the generic "breathe better line". Do you think with all else being equal that a 1.5mm increase in exhaust valve diameter would increase horsepower like it theoretically would on the inlet side? Remember at the start of the post I mentioned that i got more HP out of 40mm inlets than 44s.

CYA CT

2 words ..........

velocity

CT,Lets answer a question with a ???You run a 69 crank...and used 44s inlets and ran backwards is that correct!!! ...next combo you run a 69 crank....and used 40s inlets and made better hps is that correct!!!.....So if you use 82 crank using 44s ....think of a steam train the more fire you feed it the better it goes....is that a better line to feed you....I might be a little out of my depth herr on this subject but i can see what is happening with combos.JVLRacing:P

[ Edited on 16/10/2005 by jvl054 ]

alarger exhaust valve won't make much difference but small HP gains @the top at the expense of some torque.

Hi CT

I was very dissapointed with Malory quailty years ago, I guess things havent got better. The lifter bores are eary to clearnace at home with a big burr in your handrill, its one of the many things you check before you do the final clean before assembly.

Steve

Hi JVL,

I agree that bigger valves are probably suited to a bigger engine and indeed a longer a stroke. My 44 mm valves were not only shrouded by the cylinder wall but the cambers really did need some work. The only machining they really had was from the tool that inserted the seats!

I think or theorise that air speed, or as astro put's it 'velocity', is crucial. That's one of the principles carbs work on.

Thanks for the "hand tools at home" handy hint Steve. I guess the lifters don't actually seat against the surface of the lifter bore so it wouldn't have to be perfectly square! What does a bur look like? Nice sig-line by the way.

One question for the engine gurus. When do your replace rod bolts? I think one of my rods is a bit tight and I'm going to order new bearings of the lot, should I order new rod bolts? Thanks.

CYA CT

Your right CT, big is not always better..................although some girls beg the differ...............lol.

My theory is keep it simple. I even run a standard flywheel, points and non ported heads, and still get good results. So why spend all this extra dosh on what would inevitably be only a little gain. Your last combo sounded like a reliable combo that produced good hp so why not go back.

I have spent thousands over the years chasing hp in my rally and race cars with very little rewards......The only rewards I really got were the broken cranks and rods I have hanging as trophies on the garage walls.

The reason for bigger cc ratings is pretty simple, for a given combination you make the same power but at a lesser RPM. You churn more ccs of fuel/ air mix per minute for a given rpm in a 2276 than you do in a 1915.

... and at the same RPM the shorter stroke is doing it with less stress on the reciprocating parts.

A 69mm stroke will rev to over 7000, all day every day, ....

if an 82mm stroke does this, something will eventually give.

How many broken 69mm cranks have you seen destroy engines compared to stoker engine failures. Even Okrassa strokers eventually break.

Hi Nathan,

I think that a $2000 stock 1600 with 40 RWHP is good value because it's $50 per horsepower. From that point I think it costs on average $80 to $100 per horsepower and all the labour is free.

That means lugnuts engine should have between 110 and 130 RWHP.

Are your heads street eliminators? These are good on 1915s providing the compression is high and you stick with 40 or 42mm vinlet alves and clean up the chambers. People complain they run hot but I didn't find them too bad.

Hi 56 Astro,

Can you be constructive in disussing parts or pass on your engine building experience rather than preach your (or somebody else's) theories? I'm not meaning to offend but I find the above comment pointless in this thread.

CYA CT

If your rod ratio is the same (using a longer length rod in a stroker) the only real difference is the clearancing weakening the case. And if you are running a huge spings and a mega clearanced cam - possibble breakage.

Even a stroker can be built for longeivity if you so desire. The realities are most are built to make big power. Stuff breaks at 200 hp, its not if but when.

Horses for courses

How bout them T4s eh !

CT, rod bolts are cheap insurance, unless you know that they werent overtorqued, and stretched, I would be inclined to change them.

[ Edited on 17-10-2005 by AdrianH ]

fullnoise wrote:Hi 56 Astro,

Can you be constructive in disussing parts or pass on your engine building experience rather than preach your (or somebody else's) theories? I'm not meaning to offend but I find the above comment pointless in this thread.

CYA CT

Harsh! If this is a chat or 'discussion', maybe 56s Astro's comments pointing out one of the downsides of stroker cranks are valid in a thread on engine building..?

On that note, WTF is a "cc rating"?!


[ Edited on 17-10-2005 by VWCOOL ]

fullnoise wrote:Hi 56 Astro,

Can you be constructive in disussing parts or pass on your engine building experience rather than preach your (or somebody else's) theories? I'm not meaning to offend but I find the above comment pointless in this thread.

CYA CT

Haha

you crack me up.

There have been 31 replies to this "chat" thread, and you have ONE extra engine combo (provided by Lugnuts), and you reckon MY replies are pointless.

I was going down the stroker path for a daily driver, but they simply don't stand the test of time. So I won't post the details of my "dream combo", cause it would have been a "nightmare como".

You know yourself what the sweetest combo for your engine is, and who could put it together. Give him a call .....
:cry

Glenn,

I'm just weary of the stoker debate. Let's not go there.

I agree, WTF is cc rating?

Attached is a picture of where I plan to mount my oil cooler this time around. Thoughts are invited.

CYA CT

OK my england wasnt quite technically correct. I should have said - bigger capacity engines. Give me a break, Im a Kiwi

Bledisloe

On that note heres a couple of combos...

1904 that I just finished

74mm welded DMS crank
Stroke relieved stock rods
120 engle cam
Brazillian lifters
CB straight cuts
Chromo pushrods
Deep sump
90.5 cima P and Cs
40 x 35 mildly ported heads, 3 angle valve job, Berg HD singles. 51cc chambers
44 IDFs with 36mm vents
1 1/2" exhaust.
9:1 compression
1.1:1 VW rockers on solid bugpack shafts

This engine was built for a 1500, is not a screamer. It will rev to about 5500. The engine was more about torque than HP. So far this engine has only had the cam break in done on it - no problems.



The stupid square filters dont fit with the shroud...

Happening now is a 2276

82 CB crank
Berg 12lb flywheel
Kennedy St1 and daiken disc
5.4" H beam rods
94mm pistons with Total seal second rings
deep sump
CB straight cuts
AC net alloy pushrods
044 44 x 37.5 heads ported by Darren Krewenchuk. 4 angle valve job, 58cc chambers, dual VW dia. springs. .040" copper head gaskets.
48 DRLAs with 42mm vents
1 5/8" exhaust.
9.6:1 Compression.
30mm oil pump (external cooler etc...)
CB K8 copy and CB lifters
CB 1.4:1 ratio rockers

The heads were ported for the car - 55 with IRS, stock gears in a SSC box. Set up for 3 gear 1/4 miles.

The engine prior to this was a 2110, using cnc ported oval ports 42 x 37. The engine ran out of cam by the time the heads started working.

The guy who ported the heads for the 2276 mentioned that CB uses the same seat regardless of wether the valve size is 42 or 44mm. The 42mm valve tends to be deep set and shrouded because of this.

[ Edited on 17-10-2005 by AdrianH ]

lol... a Kiwi. That explains it! :P

ok go easy on me I am engine building newbie :P

ok here is my current dream (budgetish) combo
69mm cw crank
94mm pistons
120 engle cam
P&P 043 heads
Chromo pushrods
1.4:1 rockers
aluminum case
lightened flywheel
1 1/2 exhaust
all fed by a draw through 4age supercharger setup
don’t know about comp ratio or what carb/carbs though

My current setup:
stock everything but
88mm pistons
Holley bugspray (200cfm)
P&P 040s *home job
econo extractors

now if everything that I have read on the interweb is true my car should be a gas guzzler (I get about 10L to 100 which I am happy with), have massive blow by and should explode into a massive fireball some time in the near future.

Likewise my car should be experiencing massive blowby due to warped thin wall cylinders 🙂

My combo (only the second VW engine I've built, and a compromise due to time restraints);

69mm Counterweighted crank
92mm Cima barrels and forged pistons = 1835cc
stock rebushed rods
HSC stage 2 cam (biggest mistake I ever made)
Empi deep sump
044 heads, SS 37 x 35 valves (I think) HD single springs - absolutely on work at all.
Stock pushrods and rocker gear
Recycled AS41 case from a FI type 3
lightened flywheel
all rotating components staticly balanced (rods end for end to 0.1g)
crank and flywheel dynamically balanced
1 1/2 (I think) thunderbird extractors
twin Kadrons (std jets)
type four oil cooler
external breather
8.5 : 1 compression
009 with electronic points replacement

All in all its not a bad motor - pull from 2500 ish to 5500 and will rev over 6000 without trouble (no point though), brisk rather than really quick. I wish now that I had put a name brand cam in it - I've only heard by hearsay what the grind is on the HSC2, and its almost not worth bothering (from memory +8 thou lift and +5° duration from stock). Its a pain in the ass when its cold, has a 009 flat spot and a couple of other minor issues.

What I would like to do in the future is a set of 1.4:1 ratio rockers with elephant feet adjusters, port and polish on the 044's, get a set of aluminium manifolds for the kadrons (I hve the steelies right now) and have them match ported, get a set of AJ simms 46IDK kadron's, one of the Bosch 043 vacuum / mech dizzy's and a good quality 1 5/8" fully merged exhaust system (with wanky ceramic coating 🙂 ). After doing all that work I'd then love to find someone who knew VW's and kadrons and get it properly dyno tuned.

I reckon that my motor would make about 80hp at the flywheel. With the mods above I think (still at 8.5:1) it would be 100 - 110 hp or there abouts.

fullnoise wrote:Are your heads street eliminators?
CYA CT

No I run 044 heads. I was going to update to SE but after some consideration I dont think the few hps I will gain would be $$$ well spent, plus I would have to re tune and all that........ all costing more $$$$

There is a very simple way to over come lack of HP. Just drive harder...........

[ Edited on 17/10/2005 by bat69 ]

CT,

did you experience any wear in the lifter bores ?

Heres am 86b webcam and web lifters after 1200 km with duals and .555" lift at the valve. The cam had lots of little bits welded to it. The lifter bores are being rebushed as they are flogged out (new case 1200ks on it) The last Hot VWs had a good article on lifter bore problems and fixes.


[ Edited on 17-10-2005 by AdrianH ]

AdrianH wrote:CT,

did you experience any wear in the lifter bores ?

Heres am 86b webcam and web lifters after 1200 km with duals and .555" lift at the valve. The cam had lots of little bits welded to it. The lifter bores are being rebushed as they are flogged out (new case 1200ks on it) The last Hot VWs had a good article on lifter bore problems and fixes.




[ Edited on 17-10-2005 by AdrianH ]

So, what caused this?

If I was guessing purely from an engineering standpoint I'd say too high a load on the lifter face or too little lubrication.

So I'd be interested to hear what really caused it 🙂

Spring pressure was 300 lbs at full opening. I dont think it was lubrication, possibly more to do with relative hardness of cam and lifters. No suspect material found in filter or oil after breakin.

The other possible cause is a lack of lifter spinning due to the bores being flogged out and the rocking of the lifter stopping normal spin in the bore. This problem was made worse by the bores being cut for a cam lifting .440" then changing my mind and going to a cam that lifted .383". There was well over .100" clearance at a closed position (cam to lifter). The bores and lifters were within standard tolerances when I built it. The lifter faces that are least damaged (or undamaged) had the least wear in the bores.

Hi Quoll,

I just had a look at your engine specs. It's probably not a good idea to use 1.4 ratio rockers with an Engle 120 cam. You'd end up with something like .585 lift on a cam that is probably only designed to lift .460 at the valve (Guessing the specs).

The 120 is designed for 1.1 rockers and you could get away with 1.25 depending on coil bind and possibly valve to piston clearence. 1.4s should be used with something like an Engle K8.

Hi Adrian,

My lifters weren't pitted they were at different stages of wear. One pair looked fine. One pair no longer had a radius. One pair had stopped spinning and you could see that a groove was about to start. Then there was the pair that buggered everything. By nursing the car home some 70 to 80 kilometers from Oran Park and doing a valve adjustment on the way I wore the head off both lifters on the 1/3 inlets. Luckily I run an oil screen and a remote cooler. I'm going to replace the pump and bearings which will still work out cheaper than a two truck.

My lifter bores look fine.

CYA CT

My engine specs are pretty boring compared to most of these, but I will put them up anyway.

Std case
Std crank, balanced
Std reworked rods
90.5mm P and C's
lightened flywheel, 8 dowel
Std 1600 TP heads,well ported and polished
Std valves and 3 angle grind
Engle w100 cam
std ratio rockers, but converted shafts
heavy duty single springs
cromoly pushrods
30mm oil pump
009
NGk iridium plugs
Twin 40mm Dells (not sur eon vents)
1.5inch empi extractors and 2 inch custom exhaust

its a very sweet engine and rev's to 5900, though power is strong between 2500 and 5000 with torque from 1500 to 4900 rpm. it will crawl along at idle in 1st with 205/60r15 tires. it was built as a motokhana engine and warm street engine but has held its own against much more power escorts extra on sprints, hillcimb etc. Only problems were

1. Over rev @ qld raceway, 8500RPM and bent a valve
2. from over revved, we think its s damaged cam bearing but its lasted 4 more years of track work and is only starting to die now.

new engine

78 stroke, destroked to 77.7mm
90.5 P and C's
044 head with mild port and polish and SS valves
new mag case
Twin 40mm carbs
engle 130 or maybe k8 cam with rockers to suit
other specs to be decided

designed for rally, sprints, hillcimb and only on club rego. so street drivability not as important though ebing for rally a good torque engine is a good option.

ok ill post what ive got and id like to hear peoples camshaft reccomendations. Engine is being built on a very tight budget with some street but a lot of drag racing in mind. The curve ball here will be that i want to use a lot of nitrous as well.
So far we have....
Welded 78 stroker
Reworked stock rods, might upgrade to some h beams depending on budget.
Cima/mahle 94's
O40 heads with 44 by 37.5 valves. Nice exhaust ports, intake nicely ported but too small for big hp, not welded etc.

Nothing too exotic. This is a strictly low $$$ project

I want 11 sec passes out of this car which will be 1500, minor lightening like bumpers and seats removed. Gearbox will be built for the task, dont know ratios yet. Ill probably build the motor and dyno it before i work out some appopriate ratios.
So what camshaft for this baby? im planning on over 100hp of gas so i want to optimise it for that. Comp will be set low so i can use more Nitrous, id guess well under 8.5, probably high 7's.

So what are the suggestions?

mines in the members ride section under "engine build up". going for the longevity with a 1776. pretty extreme (for street) port with a relatively small cam amd ratio rockers to try and retain some bottom end.

as21 case- they always did the job before the aluminiums, modified washers to extend life

69mm crank by bergs-as good as you can get!

worked vw rods- no need for any more with small crank

90.5 p&b- best cooling and longevity total seal second ring, wrist pin keepers 'cause thats all you need with a sraight crank!

040 heads 40mm & 37.5 stainless port/polish leaving guide bosses to keep airspeed and tourque/bottom end
dual springs,properly shimmed, keepers gapped to stop valve groove chaffing

1.4 rockers- more lift at valves instead of cam accelerating and shutting them at warp speeds

G.B 309/engle v-26 297 duration .335 lift at cam 1000-5500 rpm more with port work done-designed for ratio rockers

mahle lifters by berg-same metalurgy, and rockwell, heat treat as factory-machined under head to clear lifter bores (rather than mchn case) groove between oil rings as ratio rockers can cause missalighnment in lifter bore with oil holes

magnum straight cut gears-to avoid side loading caused by helicals thus dual thrust bearing life extension

6 1/2 pound pulley and 12 1/2 pound flywheel-for even balance/harmonics on both ends of crank

48mm delortos- 36mm venturis 155 mains 70 idles (to start with)berg ball style needle &seat (loads of flow with lil float travel) on matched manifolds

custom electronic ignition 009

good breathing system with box, vented rockers (at top) and return lines from bottom of rocker covers to deep sump!-no oil starvation thankyou!

yet to work out compression, but will be whatever 98octane can support

they're the main ingredients and why i chose 'em mentioned in this thread, the usual cooling,1 5/8 headers, extra mounts, push rods, studs etc
will let you know how the combo works in a couple of months.






[ Edited on 18-10-2005 by dumone2 ]

shiftyvw wrote:ok ill post what ive got and id like to hear peoples camshaft reccomendations. Engine is being built on a very tight budget with some street but a lot of drag racing in mind. The curve ball here will be that i want to use a lot of nitrous as well.
So far we have....
Welded 78 stroker
Reworked stock rods, might upgrade to some h beams depending on budget.
Cima/mahle 94's
O40 heads with 44 by 37.5 valves. Nice exhaust ports, intake nicely ported but too small for big hp, not welded etc.

Nothing too exotic. This is a strictly low $$$ project

I want 11 sec passes out of this car which will be 1500, minor lightening like bumpers and seats removed. Gearbox will be built for the task, dont know ratios yet. Ill probably build the motor and dyno it before i work out some appopriate ratios.
So what camshaft for this baby? im planning on over 100hp of gas so i want to optimise it for that. Comp will be set low so i can use more Nitrous, id guess well under 8.5, probably high 7's.

So what are the suggestions?

Hi shifty,Teflon coat the standard rods and valve stems$$$$ saved...Cam Bugpack 4063??????JVLRacing

teflon coating? how does that save $$$$$??? whats the specs on a 4063?

shiftyvw wrote:teflon coating? how does that save $$$$$??? whats the specs on a 4063?

Bent,snap rods Telfon coating strenghtens (using nitrious)Cam296 dur 268lift.JVLRacing

I thought teflon coating was more for flow properties? ill look into it. I was thinking a lot bigger on the cam than that.

hey shifty, 44mm inlets in 040's is on the limit, i thought anything over 40 required the relocation of the plug holes...p.s you got u2u

[ Edited on 18-10-2005 by dumone2 ]

Shifty, a friend of mine in canada had a berg 1800 - 74 x 88 - running IDAs and a 50 shot that got him consistently into the mid 12s. K8 cam, 40 x 37.5 berg heads, 1.4:1 rockers. Launch at 8k and hang on. Be prepared to throw some $$ at a good fuel system. PM me and Ill put you in touch with him.

I like he sound of that Bugpack 4063 cam with 1.25:1 lifters. Bugpack also make matching lightweight racing lifters. Although the lightweight racing lifter bit is probably BS at least they say the lifters are designed for the cam and the hardness is compatible.

Who has dynoed their engine?

What numbers did you make with your combo?

What did you do to improve the numbers?

CYA CT

What a difference a week makes.

First something is pretty meaningless.

fullnoise wrote:I don't believe totally in dyno numbers.

Then it becomes relevant?

fullnoise wrote:Who has dynoed their engine?
What numbers did you make with your combo?

why do you always have to pop up and stir shit just when the thread gets back on track ?

god, you have to be about the least relevant bloke on this forum....

Thanks for the encouragement.

you have to be the only relevant bloke on this forum....

Thanks for the compliment.

See moderators aren't the only ones who can change what people say!

VDubya wrote:Thanks for the encouragement.

you have to be the least relevant bloke on this forum....

Thanks for the compliment.

See moderators aren't the only ones who can change what people say about me,the idiot!

Can we leave this thread to relevant discussion about VW's.Take it to BA if you're old enough.

[ Edited on 21-10-05 by Mick H ]

[ Edited on 21-10-05 by Mick H ]

Nitrous cams generally use wide lobe centres like 112 or greater.
They also like larger exhaust flow.
Get a copy of David Vizard's Chevy cam book to dream up a cam and have one custom ground....it's very good for cam advice.

OK lets keep it relevent, if and engine can rev to 6700 or 8000 rpms but through dyno testing stops making power at 5800 whats the point in stressing out the engine and breaking it, especially when you can spend 30k plus on building a serious engine.

Look at Dave Beckers awsome peice of machinery, its producing over 135 hp but can't be driven on the street for very long I've heard as it gets pretty hot.

And hey Shifty good luck on the 11"s with that combo, you might want to talk to the Smith brothers on your engine components and the nitrous, because without the nitous it would be lucky to make a 100hp. But as you have all assumed I'm full of $hit as dasdubber put it,

or am I?...

VDubya wrote:OK lets keep it relevent,

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Man.......not ONE of you post have been relavent!!

I have had a ball looking at you past posts.

For a newbie you come on here and not one of your posts has provided any helpful information

Ummmm.... do you have any engine combo's to post??............................

Why is it every couple of months we get some one who is TRYING to be funny???


Seriously dude.....keep posting

It is people like you that proves i am not in the the botton 10% :kiss

There are advantages in reving your engine past the power peak.
It just depends on how fast the power drops off.
In some cases you have to go way past the peak
so that in the next gear the power is still significant.
This is where dyno graphs are very useful.
Even if there is 20 hp less at 7000 for example,
there is still an advantage because when the engine drops
to 5000 in the next gear it may actually be less than this.
This is the reason for closer ratio gears.
Even if you don't believe in a dyno's HP acuracy, knowing
the RPM where peak HP and TORQUE are, can be a great advantage.
Hope this is relevant to the thread.

Shiftys engine at 100 Hp should run in the low 14's.
Being that he is building it for Nitrous and for the
street, comprimises to N/A HP have to be made.
With a 100shot, 11's should be achieveable.

thats what i had in mind dave, Ill quite happily compromise my NA power for a larger total figure on gas. I will be trying a very large cam combo due to fact that i want to rev this high when on nitrous, same or higher hp but lower peak cylinder pressures is the idea. Wearing the motor out quickly is not a concern, its not expensive or hard to freshen them up. My llmiting factor at the moment will be the VW id springs. Ill have to check the seat pressure and lift on them.

I rev my engine at least 1000 rpm past it's peak power because it's proven faster than changing to a higher gear. I've held 2nd down a short straight in in the Grafton hillclimb and third down the back straight at Wakefield park and compared the times to changing up and it's just not worth the time loss.

The other point is high revs are feel more aggressive and more fun when you're trying to go your hardest. The engine also sounds good at high revs which is cool for the drive and the spectators.

I suggest listening to Greg Wards hillclimb car at wide open throttle at max revs. It sounds like no other volkswagen.

If you want longevity and not revs then stick to a stocker and go and read anther post.

CYA CT

I never said you were full of shit vdubya, just that you were an asshole! Theres a difference lol.

I know macca and morgans car but im planning on less motor and more gas for a similar result.

Any more updates, this was such an interesting thread.👍

looks like everyones going subie

We better start 'how to install a radiator' and 'how to build a gearbox' threads!

lugnuts wrote:Hmmmm,i was thinking of staying out of this until i was a bit further along, BUT i just cant help myself,im gathering parts for a stroker ive got everything roughly priced at $9300,so far ive got a new mag case,new CB 82mm crank,DRLA 48 tri-jets with 40 vents,Mallory Unilite i havnt got the spring kit yet,and an 1 5/8 side facing header from A-1 should be sailing my way as we speak,so im into about $3000 with another 6-7 to go,theres no labour in these costs so machining and ballancing are additional.Anyway this is MY combo.
1. 2276 = 94 x 82
2.FK-8
3.42 x 37 AJs or DRD heads
4.9.5:1 comp
5.48 DRLA tri-jets 40 vents
6.1 5/8 side facing headers by A-1
7.CB 5.4" H beam rods with ARP 2000 bolts
8.Kennedy stage 1 with Daiken disc
9.CE straight cuts
10.H.D. alloy push rods
11.26mm Shadeck pump full flowed
12.Schubeck composite lifters
13.Mallory Unilite with spring kit
14.CB or Berg 1.4 ratio rockers
15.German flywheel lightened reground
16.36 horse doghouse shroud
17.Berg fan
18.Static ballanced pistons pins rings rods
19.Dynamically ballanced crank flywheel cluctch pulley gears.
So there u have it,should be all sitting on my bench end of 06,after that i need another $2400 for a Pro-street box,steady fellas i bruise easilly :kiss

[ Edited on 16-10-2005 by lugnuts ]

Update.Changes.
CB Performance Aluminium case will work with the Schubeck lifters a bit better,ile keep the AS41 for a spare.
This is what i have so far.
42x37.5 AJs Streetport heads 60cc with ported straight manifolds manifolds,for more info goto lowbugget.com.
$1400 in measuring tools
48 dell tri-jets with stacks of jets to play with.
Schubeck ceramic lifters.
A-1 1 5/8 sidewiinder header ceramic coated with O2 bung.
CB 4340 82mm crank
Mallory Unilite with spring kit NO vacuum advance.
CB 5.4in H beams arp 2000 bolts
CB forged 1.4 rockers.
GWD carb linkage
Engle FK-8 clearanced for a stroker.
Latest guesstimate $15g 8.5 down 6.5 togo:P:thumb

[ Edited on 3-9-2006 by lugnuts ]

Has anybody here in Oz played with the new big throat 44mm Kadrons?

Any more updates ?

My New engine should go in next week, so hopefully get some dyno figures etc in a few months once run in and properly tuned. But basic specs

- New mag case (stay within PRC if ever i want to go down that road)
- cb 69mm crank- offset ground 72mm stroke
- 94mm barrels and pistons (with crank gives 1999cc's)
- 10.6:1 CR
- Engle 120 cam
- 1.25:1 rockers
- CB wedge ports
- 48 ida's
- Will run a simple 009 for now (msd or mallory will be in, when my bank accoutn recovers)
- plus all the other little bits and pieces all new except for second hand german tinware.

BiX wrote:My New engine should go in next week, so hopefully get some dyno figures etc in a few months once run in and properly tuned. But basic specs

- New mag case (stay within PRC if ever i want to go down that road)
- cb 69mm crank- offset ground 72mm stroke
- 94mm barrels and pistons (with crank gives 1999cc's)
- 10.6:1 CR
- Engle 120 cam
- 1.25:1 rockers
- CB wedge ports
- 48 ida's
- Will run a simple 009 for now (msd or mallory will be in, when my bank accoutn recovers)
- plus all the other little bits and pieces all new except for second hand german tinware.

And you thought that motor bike was fast!

It should be resonably quick for a sub 2L motor, but i think the bike may still have the edge 😀

Also it will run with a std L bug SSP gb, but with a 1.44 3rd.......

Hey Bix,

Who did the work on the crank?

Crankshaft Engineering (daves old workplace?)

Hi all, i have bought this type 1 2275cc engine from delux66(damo), it was originally built by Stan Pobjoy over 10 years ago, he just simply rebuilt with new crank and cam bearings, new piston rings and new gasket kit. The engine has a SPG Roller crank in it. I have a list of all measurements obtained in the build: 2275cc Roller Engine Assembly tolerances:

Camshaft Axial Play : 0.06mm
Camshaft gear to crank gear backlash: 0.02mm
Cylinder Shims: 1.15mm
Crankshaft endplay: 0.09mm
Deck height TDC: #1 1.78mm #2 1.81mm #3 1.78mm #4 1.76mm
Head CC: #1 67cc #2 67cc #3 67cc #4 67cc
Calculated Compression Ratio: 8.1:1
Total valve lift : 0.460” or 11.68mm
Valve geometry set @ Half total lift: 5.84mm
Stroke: 82mm
Bore: 94mm
Rocker ratio: 1.25:1
Crank mains: 0.25mm under ID, OD standard
see pics of the build here
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=55742
ill try and get some more specs

all i know is its the best vw donk i've ever owned runs awsome pulls hard sounds awsome (through the cannons)my neighbours prob dont think so
wadda ya rekon??

[ Edited on 27-2-2007 by newoldmanx ]

Get rid of the cannons! Fit some conventional pipes and it will run even better... and be quieter

[ Edited on 28-2-2007 by VWCOOL ]

VWCOOL wrote:Get rid of the cannons! Fit some conventional pipes and it will run even better... and be quieter

[ Edited on 28-2-2007 by VWCOOL ]

personally... i love the noise could be louder
but can you tell me
1. why it would run better
2. by better do you mean more power or more reliable
3. would a 4into1 header with stinger be the go?? what size pipes 1 5/8's???

newoldmanx wrote:

VWCOOL wrote:Get rid of the cannons! Fit some conventional pipes and it will run even better... and be quieter

[ Edited on 28-2-2007 by VWCOOL ]

personally... i love the noise could be louder
but can you tell me
1. why it would run better
2. by better do you mean more power or more reliable
3. would a 4into1 header with stinger be the go?? what size pipes 1 5/8's???

Put reaaallly simply, at the moment it's running like two badly-tuned two cylinder engines joined together by an ignition system

do you mean like a pair of well tuned harley's running on one cdi

do you have any "informed" answers for any of my three questions.

maybe something like "exhaust speeds help scavenging in the cylinders" or something plausable

newoldmanx wrote:do you mean like a pair of well tuned harley's running on one cdi

do you have any "informed" answers for any of my three questions.

maybe something like "exhaust speeds help scavenging in the cylinders" or something plausable

well-tuned harley? is there such a thing?!

If they are anything like the cannons I know of, the pipe lenghts etc are woeful and what you said about exhaust speeds is on the right track

yeah a well tuned harley runs like a badly tuned two cyl engine😎

lugnuts wrote:

lugnuts wrote:Hmmmm,i was thinking of staying out of this until i was a bit further along, BUT i just cant help myself,im gathering parts for a stroker ive got everything roughly priced at $9300,so far ive got a new mag case,new CB 82mm crank,DRLA 48 tri-jets with 40 vents,Mallory Unilite i havnt got the spring kit yet,and an 1 5/8 side facing header from A-1 should be sailing my way as we speak,so im into about $3000 with another 6-7 to go,theres no labour in these costs so machining and ballancing are additional.Anyway this is MY combo.
1. 2276 = 94 x 82
2.FK-8 (x)
3.42 x 37 AJs or DRD heads
4.9.5:1 comp (x)
5.48 DRLA tri-jets 40 vents
6.1 5/8 side facing headers by A-1
7.CB 5.4" H beam rods with ARP 2000 bolts
8.Kennedy stage 1 with Daiken disc
9.CE straight cuts
10.H.D. alloy push rods (x)
11.26mm Shadeck pump full flowed
12.Schubeck composite lifters
13.Mallory Unilite with spring kit
14.CB 1.4 ratio rockers
15.German flywheel lightened reground
16.36 horse doghouse shroud
17.Berg fan (x)
18.Static ballanced pistons pins rings rods
19.Dynamically ballanced crank flywheel cluctch pulley gears.
So there u have it,should be all sitting on my bench end of 06,after that i need another $2400 for a Pro-street box,steady fellas i bruise easilly :kiss

[ Edited on 16-10-2005 by lugnuts ]

Update.Changes.
CB Performance Aluminium case will work with the Schubeck lifters a bit better,ile keep the AS41 for a spare.
This is what i have so far.
42x37.5 AJs Streetport heads 60cc with ported straight manifolds manifolds,for more info goto lowbugget.com.
$1400 in measuring tools
48 dell tri-jets with stacks of jets to play with.
Schubeck ceramic lifters.
A-1 1 5/8 sidewiinder header ceramic coated with O2 bung.
CB 4340 82mm crank
Mallory Unilite with spring kit NO vacuum advance.
CB 5.4in H beams arp 2000 bolts
CB forged 1.4 rockers.
GWD carb linkage
Engle FK-8 clearanced for a stroker.
Latest guesstimate $15g 8.5 down 6.5 togo:P:thumb

[ Edited on 3-9-2006 by lugnuts ]

Ok,so im only waiting on a starter alternator and a muffler,the build starts mid June.Cam is now a V-26 like a W-120 for ratio rockers.All rotating assembly has been ballanced to a nats ball by Crankshaft Engineering with paperwork for before and after ballance.
Also acquired
LM-1 wideband with rpm converter
Berg oil filter kit and vented VCs
Stage 1 clutch
Daiken super disc
Lite flywheel german
CSP headstuds
CE straight cuts
BMD pulley system (for the #ank factor)
and really too much stuff to list,#hit loads of the little stuff and vw tools,everything new except the carbs.Just have to do a preassembly before my hols so i can order the manton pushrods.I also changed my CR from 9.5:1 to 9:1 by machining the piston crown,why because i wanted to keep my chosen deck height of 0.045,and because i can :P

[ Edited on 19-5-2007 by lugnuts ]