Hybrid Engine Project - final build up

Hi everyone,

Over the past few days I've started the final buildup of Wibble's WRX headded VW engine. For those that missed the other thread where the concept was being developed.... the goal is to build a large displacement high reving engine that uses subaru DOHC water cooled heads.

The advantage of the subaru heads is that the built in performance capability of them. The ports are huge!. Add to that reliability, 4 valves, hydraulic operation, water cooled, the list goes on. Naturally aspirated heads have small combustion chambers and will be on the engine in its final build, but in this built it will have a pair of MY98 WRX heads with 55cc combustion chambers. This means a low compression ratio and as a result reduced performance. (about 190hp i'm hoping for).

The 2180 will redline at 7300 RPM. The limiting factor being the subaru valve train and the mahle forged pistons. To go above that we'd need to run wiseco's and aftermarket valve springs which will be a simple bolt in affair when its all done. The wiseco's MIGHT be needed depending ont he valve pocket depth that has yet to be cut into the pistons, as the mahle's can only handle pockets to a depth of about 0.140".

So after designing and machining about 5 different versions of head stud adapters I decided in a final design. There was a lot to consider with making the head stud adapters. My main problem was that I'd we'd bought an engine case that used 10mm head studs. This complicated the whole project because it meant there were no "off the shelf" bolts available that would allow the plates to be bolted on properly and still clear the barrels.

About the empi alloy cases, after seeing one I think i'd prefer the CB alloy engine block. Having 6 shuffel pins for a start, but also being a CB product its probably better quality and better machined too. One of the shuffel pins on the empi case was loose because the machining tolerences were out... Typical Empi quality...

This is the specs of the engine so far...

78mm osraka german forged billet crank
scat 5.7" h-beam 4340 rods with 3/8th rod bolts
empi alloy case with 10mm head studs
A stock cam is used for an oil pump drive, with clearancing for the conrods as the 3/8th bolts make them fat!
Welded stock lifters, installed to block the oil galleries. Glued into place with silicon for the moment, but after the engine proves itself the oil gallery plugs will be drilled and tapped, and plugs will be installed to allow oil supply to the lifter bores to be closed off. I didn't want to modify the block too much incase the whole project goes sideways...
mahle 94's with total seal 2nd rings
CB dry sump pump , full flow fitting on the front of the case will be t'd off to supply oil to the heads via external hose plumbing. Oil return via some custom tubes that will return via the pushrod tube holes in the case.
custom head stud adapters, 10mm plate bolts to the block and 12mm head bolts. All grade 12 high tensile steel.
MY98 wrx heads with modifed water cooling supply and returns.

The next part of the project requires 12mm to be machined off the base of the barels so the fit inside the engine case again and the deck height is restored to 0. Setting the actual deck will be done with a 0.040" copper head gasket and barrel shims. I'll be getting the barrel machining work done next week once we are all back from holidays.

After that its heads, timing belt, oil supplys and returns, intake manifold and then a test start. (who needs an exhaust) Timeframe is about another month... so we'll see if I can keep that.

Here's the pictures...




















I'll keep everyone posted.

Cheers,


[ Edited on 28-12-2005 by iswinkels ]

Even the temporary zip ties have been well engineered!! 🙂

Great stuff, hope all the planning and fabrication work out well in the end. Best of luck for the remainder of the project.

He, he...Too right Das!
Ian sure is an inventive bugger!
Great project this....It has been the topic of many nights at the pub....
Cant wait to see the result!
Some of those Rally Cross Bugs from the early Nineties made silly power with those heads...Can't wait to see something like this on the street!
On that note...Do you have a car for this beast?

Well i'm back to work tommorrow. On the bright side the machine shop at work can cut the barrels down 11.5mm some time over the next few days. The pistons will be being weight matched also, then the heads will be bolted on firmly for the setup of the valve train, timing belt setup etc.

The engine is going in Wibble's Myers manx, but the first time its started it will be on the floor attached to some kind of stand or tranny. Street driving the engine is a little ways off yet.

hi ian

this is goin to sound like a silly question but ill ask any lol, the fact that u a using wrx heads are u eliminating the use of the push rods? if so how are u driving the valve train?

there is a earlier post about this engine showing pictures of the belt driven valve train.

Marc

Thats right. See the gilmer drive pully on the crank. This drives the DOHC cams on the heads. There is going to be 2 or 3 tensioners, and an idler/pully that also drives the porsche air alternator to air cool the cylinders.

The barrels still havn't been machined. The machine shops been too busy to get it done for me... but I can't complain because they are doing it for free!

Great work Ian, looking really really good. Cant wait to see the next update.

VW and Subaru meet in harmony finally 🙂

Not trying to knock your project, but what is the advantage of this conversion, over using the whole subaru engine? Is the subaru bottom end compromised in any way? Just cant see the benefit of retaining a vw bottom end, apart from weight perhaps.


Interesting project nevertheless!

Well competition eliminator heads ported won't flow as much as a stock wrx head, so there is the air-flow advantage.

Then there's the stock valve train limit of the wrx head of 7300 (some say 8000).

Water cooled heads, so this means even engine temps and the EFI system will reference a sensor in the coolant system in the head so it will run very nicely(unlike my car that tends to idle rich until its at full temp due to the 7lt of oil capacity).

The vw engine block means that no engineering approval is required for the conversion.

VW bottom end options are more varied. This same conversion would fit on a 94x86 block (2387cc). WRX aftermarket crank and rod options are hugely expensive. This engine has the osraka crank and scat h-beams which is easily good for 8000 rpm.

In the end it will have cost as much as a comp eliminator head setup, but will be more reliable. Plus i'll have plans to churn out a few kits, and considering how many wrx heads are lying around in this country well.... consider the possabilities...

cool, fair enough i suppose.

hi ian,

i have read over the thread properly this time, i really like the concept im build a 2276 94x82 at the moment, and have been debating as to wot heads i should use, would the wrx head conersion be viable for me?

Yes it could be depending on the car its going into. The wrx heads are 15mm wider than stock heads so the engine bay would require some radical clearancing.

Plus an alloy engine block would be ideal with a slightly raised deck, but you can get away without that.

8mm head stud cases are easier to convert, though the prototype is using 10mm head studs. Given the opportinity to do it again i'd get an 8mm head stud case because it solves clearancing issues and is generally a lot easier to do.

Magnesium cases can be converted easily too. They are thinner around the flywheel area so its a lot easier to get the head stud conversion plate in. All the measurements I did for the first series of plates were from a mag case. I had to do it all again for the alloy one.

Its a fair way off being available as a kit tho. I'd imagine the prototype will be running inside about 1 month tho.

Cheers,

hmmm interesting, well the car is a 76 bug so yeah would be a tight squeeze

Hi Ian,
Do you have some flow figures and valve sizes of the heads?
Regards, DB.

No I don't have any flow figures actually. These heads aren't ported yet. I'll probably knife edge the intakes wher they split to two valves but I doubt they need anything more than that. The intakes are bigger than the intake ports on my comp eliminator heads.

I'll measure the valves next time i'm downstairs...

So here's the latest update. I've gotten the cylinders back from the machine shop. They made up a brass slug that fits into the cylinder the piston end so they could hold it tightly in the chuck without fear of distorting or crushing the barrel.

For the bottom of the barrel an aluminium slug was also machined up that allowed the dead center of the lathe to lock into it.



All barrels have 11.5mm machined off the bottom of them, which restores the deck height to 0 after taking into consideration the 5.7" rods and the 15mm barrel spacer/stud adapters.



Here's a shot of the water cooling galery block off plate. These locate the cylinders and also block the water galleries in the heads.



Now this is starting to look pretty good. Here is the engine pictured head to head. It fits together like it was made to!





The insides of the DOHC heads.



Next steps are :

1. Piston balancing and final fitup of cylinders(deck height setting etc)
2. Sorting out the oil drain from the heads to go back thru the pushrod tube holes.
3. Blocking off the water galeries on the heads, and re-routing the coolant to enter and exit via the plugs that are in the middle and at each end of the heads.
4. Order some nice head stud bolts.
5. Custom machine some cam drive pullies to allow the timing to be set and adjusted.
6. Intake manifold construction.

7. Test run...

IS IT WORKING YET?

OK I SHOULD READ FIRST

Damn Ian.... Thats looking mighty forceful!
Those heads make VW jobs look plan primative....
So why did Subaru drop the Quad Cam engines in most of their range?
Are you gonna use a distributor for spark????
With all that tech, I would have thought a crank fire number would be EZR to adapt...
Looking good anyhow....

The distributor is there to hold the dist drive in place. We have a few options for ignition. One of which is a old school vertex magneto, and then drop on a pair of 48 IDA's. Sort of new age nostalga?

But the real plan is a lot more insane sounding... Modified wrx intake manifold with injectors, modified distributor electronic ignition trigger disc. Sequential EFI, either single coil or 4 coil ignition (undecided), and last of all, a Nissan RB20 or RB25 turbo.

With 3-4lb boost its an easy 200hp and 7300 RPM engine. Then with up to 12lb its potentially a 300+ rwhp engine.

Did I mention this is going into Wibbles Myers Manx?

Can I say just one thing.....

NUTS!

There... Ive said it.... I feel better now..

This is kinda old school anyway Ian.... There was quite a few Rally Cross Bugs in the early 90's running these heads.... With very good results... Should be Mad in a Manx....
Hee.... I can see the mag feature title now...

Mad Manx.... Beyond Everything

Yeah they were using EJ22 heads on type 4 engines thouigh I think. Nobody was able to get any real info from the "pioneers" of this class of engine though, so mine is 100% designed by me.


[ Edited on 2-2-2006 by iswinkels ]

I can't wait to hear how this engine runs. Lots of thinking looks to be paying off dude....

Wahoo, cant wait to get home and check it out!!! 🙅

Looking sweet as Ian, must be real nice to see the theory turning into reality....

I kinda like the idea of 48IDA's and a magneto.... retro tech 🙂

This is too cool!!!..... I think the HP figures you are aiming for are more than achievable. I have a 100k Kilometer early EJ20T with the small TD04 in my beetle and that made 198hp at the wheels. I think with the crazy mods planned and the extra cc capacity it will be a weapon.... Top idea WRX power with about 40kgs less weight!

Cheers Paul

I don't know about it being that much lighter. These heads weigh quite a few more KG's than a vw head. I'll weigh them next time I get a chance and let you all know the diference.

The latest news now is i have to order some custom length head studs that are 220mm long, with a M12x1.5mm thread at each end. I need 12 for the head studs. With any luck they'll be in my hands mid to late next week.

If anyone knows of an engine (Toyota or Nissan) that uses head bolts with the same thread it might be useful. I can use a head bolt instead of studs as an alternative and it would be cheaper to go to the wreckers and pinch some head bolts out of some dead junk yard engine than trying to track down these bolts or worst case get them machined from high tensile chromoly rod.

Ian - did u get a chance to work on the 'Monster Engine' on the weekend ? (or should I call it Frankenstein)

.....I'm dying for an update...... 🙂

Fraid not. Next is to track down a pair of EJ20 naturally aspirated cylinder heads, and confirm the data that they are infact 40cc combusin chambers.

iswinkels wrote:Yeah they were using EJ22 heads on type 4 engines thouigh I think. Nobody was able to get any real info from the "pioneers" of this class of engine though, so mine is 100% designed by me.

The guy who originally built the t4 rally cross motor used Liberty RS turbo EJ20T heads. They were twin cam too. Sadly he's died so I'm not surprised you couldn't find out any details about his engine.

Well I finally got the head studs manufactured. Starting with a piece of high tensile 1/2" 4140 chromoly I had 12 high tensile head studs made with a 12x1.5 metric fine thread cut onto each end. The stud diameter is still 1/2" so the heads were then drilled to acomodate the larger stud diameter.

I've modified the cylinder 1+2 plates so that the main stud bolts don't go thru the plate. It was just easier to do it this way than to get another 6 studs made that would go thru the plate.





Last of all is the alloy cylinder locater plates have been drilled for the oil return fittings that will then return oil to the sump via the pushrod tube holes. 2 oil returns from each head will do the job nicely.

Head studs installed. These suckers should hold 70-80ft-lb, but only need to be torqued to 40ish on this engine.

All engine internals are balanced now too. Here is a pic of one cleaned and prepped WRX head installed.



Last one....
Next on the list is installing the heads, and oil returns to the sump.
Then onto installing the cams and setting up the camshaft timing.






[ Edited on 21-3-2006 by iswinkels ]

iswinkels wrote:Last of all is the alloy cylinder locater plates have been drilled for the oil return fittings that will then return oil to the sump via the pushrod tube holes. 2 oil returns from each head will do the job nicely.
[ Edited on 21-3-2006 by iswinkels ]

So how do you plan to locate the oil returns and what sort of construction are they?
Or are you planing to use a pushrod tube? Surely your not so lucky that the subi oil galleries line up with the pushrod tubes????

No they don't line up. I'll be using silicon hose. The same stuff thats normally used on turbo oil returns. The return hose length is about 1/2 the length of a pushrod tube, plus the angle is more severe so using a pushrods is out of the question really.

I'm keeping them simple. It will be a brass fitting screwed into the alloy plate that goes under the head. Then the silicon hose to the block and thats all.

Keep it coming Ian, cant wait to see some more of this...
if your not going forwards... you are actually going backwards.

BTW, hows your beetle going now... any updates.
T54

Yeah i should be making some good progress with the engine over the next few days. So with any luck there will be some frequent updates.

As for my bug and the 2332 turbo, well its run in at last. I'm already contemplating changing a few more things on it though. Now i have a nissan skyline GTS4 as my daily driver I am free to go really crazy on the vw. I'm thinking all carbon fiber guards, widened wheel track, 9" rear wheels, roll cage and racing harness seatbelts, new seats, paneled in rear seat section (no rear seat). Why have a fast vw when you can have a really really fast vw...😀 It gives me a direction to develop the car into as well over the next few years. As it is I can't drive it to the shops anymore. I'm too paranoid about paint damage or someone scatching it....

And if someone is gonna scratch it, it may as well be you!
I know how you feel Ian.... I was like that with my last car... Thats why the Rag will be left shitty looking.... but the driveline is a different story!
So now thats its run in... Are you planning any trips to the track? I for one would love to know what she is capable of....

[ Edited on 22-3-2006 by humpty ]

So far its tuned to 5lb boost only. I need to spend a few hours street tuning it to 10lb, and then book some dyno time to do the top end tune... easily a weekend gone there....

Unfortuatly my schedule is somewhat insane this week. This weekend i'm wiring a wolf ecu into an 180sx and tuning it, then later next week i'm wiring a wolf and MSD into an twin turbo lexus in a callis, and in between i'm building Wibble's hybrid engine. I have no time for my own projects anymore... On the bright side, two of those jobs are paying ones!

iswinkels wrote:On the bright side, two of those jobs are paying ones!

Now thats the way to do it... That way the hobby doesn't kill bank....
And keeps the wife happy!
Sounds like you dont know how to say no!!!

would love to see how this things going ian - i have been watching the progress with great interest.

when is it all gonna make some noise for the first time?

God I hope soon... All ive done in the last few weeks is work on other peoples cars... Wired a lexus v8 last week and tuned a 180sx today... it never ends...

Its going to soon though. As soon as I'm back from darwin i'm going hardcore on VW's ONLY!

That means Wibble's engine here, and finally a top end tune for my 2332 turbo to 12lb, a and at last a completed interior for my bug.

Ian,

What's the latest?

At last my lathe has arrived and I've begun work on the hybrid gone crazy engine again.

I've machined up some spacers to go behind the factory cam gears. The gears on the right have a spacer that about 25-30mm thick behidn them thats made to fit the cam shaft, and also the back of the gear.

The left side is a little more inventive. The factory gears have been reversed and faced off so they are flat on the back. They are curved from factory. Then the spacer fits to it with step cut fitting of about 8mm to locate it centrally in the near 80mm spacer. The back of that spacer then fits onto the cam.

The first thing anyone will point out is the problem with loading up the ends of the camshafts which will break the cams, gears etc. My solution to this is a simple one. Each cam gear will be supported in its end by another aluminium plug with a bearing in it. The bearing will be then mounted to a re-enforcing frame that also supports all the tensioners.

I was originally going to mount it all off the timing belt covers, but thats just too much work!, not adjustable enough. I need to be able to see the cam pullies while the belt is under tension so I can set the timing properly.

Well here's the pics...

Next on the agenda is the support frame for the timing belt tensioners. I'm not sure when this is going to happen though as i've got 2 other engine builds on the go at the moment too.

Lets try uploading those pics again..

Looks great!! Are you worried about the cooling fan pulley drive stripping the lugs off the belt at all or is the "mock up" not showing the wrap the belt will have on the fan drive??? Just curious. Looks great though!!!👍

Your right. The right hand tensioner needs to be closer to the fan drive idler pully. There wasn't a place for me to cable tie it to and still be able to finish this mock up of the drive system.

This new setup looks way more practical to me that what I had in mind last time. Its completely clear of the oil lines too which is a bonus.

I was just thinking about this the other day...

this is one of the most intersting threads i've read in a long time!
great work!

i look forward to the end result, it's gonna be wild....

kai

Inspirational, look forward to seeing how it works.

iswinkels wrote:Your right. The right hand tensioner needs to be closer to the fan drive idler pully. There wasn't a place for me to cable tie it to and still be able to finish this mock up of the drive system.

This new setup looks way more practical to me that what I had in mind last time. Its completely clear of the oil lines too which is a bonus.

What stops you adding a pulley outboard of the crank pulley specifically for the fan and spacing the fan pully out to accommodate.
It will also serve as a handy cam belt keeper.

Devils advocate here.
Relying on so little wrap, even with the tensioner pulley for increased wrap on the single highest load of the system is just asking for trouble on something like a missed shift.
Unload that cam belt as much as possible and drive the fan independantly in my view.
L8tr
E

Hey Ian,

Crossed my mind the other day that I hadnt read about your Frankenstein motor in a while..... how goes it ?

Hang in there, I'm sure the end result will be worth the trouble....

Cheers,

Doug

I've gotten as far as making the spacers to re-align the timing belt. I started with 120mm alloy bar stock and made extensions that fit onto the ends of the cams tightly and also into the back of the stock timing gears.

The next engineering challange to overcome as thefact the left head sits so forward that the extension required for the timing belt is quite long.

This would load the camshaft end bearings badly, so i came up with a design that supportsthe end of the timing gear and also doubles as a timing belt guard. The inside fronts of the timing gears have been surfaced to support a plug that ill go into the front of the timing pully.This plug is also machined internally to support a bearing which is then bolted to the timing cover.

After having done that I havn't had the time to progress any further. It will be on hold for another 6 months. I am in the middle of a few too many other projects at the moment and need to focus on a few less things at once.

My main focus over the next 6 months is completing the rebuild of my car, this time with altered version of the 2332 engine, made stronger, new induction system, a few changes to the suspension and some cosmetic changes to the body.

The picture shows the current configuration of the timing belt. The tensioners will move a little so the idler that drives the alternator gets better traction on the belt too, but its getting closer.

The aluminium spacers will actually hold the belt in place as I made the fit very tight where the spacers lock onto the camshaft and into the back of the pullys.

[ Edited on 5-2-2007 by iswinkels ]

[ Edited on 5-2-2007 by iswinkels ]

what happened here! is going???

Projects is stalled. Im working on my own car again and building a new engine for myself. Warren's in the middle of selling his house and will be moving all his stuff soon, so i probably wont be working on it again for another 9-12 months. I do want to finish the project though, and will eventually.

Hi Ian, how's things ? I left it 4 years before asking for an update this time 🙂

I saw your turbo beast in the other thread (I've been away from AVD for a few years) and it look awe inspiring, kudos to you mate. Did you ever get a chance to get back onto the quad cam hybrid ?

The hybrid is in storage as far as I know at the moment. Warren ended up selling his house, met a nice new woman and moved in with her. I moved house at the same time and have been side tracked building my own bug (which I took a year off from as well) and Nissan gtr engines. Im back into my own bug again now though, and would hope to one day finish off Warren's engine. Ive learnt so much more about engines and engineering since starting that project so I am pretty confident it could be finished without too much drama now.

OMG i remember this i was thinking a few weeks ago who was the person building that engine and what happened to it 👍

Mate totally understand, funny how real life intrude on carefully laid plans isn't it ?

I might have to drop this off at Dr Swinkels place 😉

Yes please 🙂