$250 labour + parts for a clutch fork replacement??

I took my 63 beetle to the local VW mechanic after the clutch gave way. He had a quick look and he seems to think that the clutch fork has broken.

When i asked him how much it is likely to cost to get it replaced he said that he charges $250 to remove and install a motor, not including any parts.

Is this reasonable?? it definetly doesn't seem like it. It wouldnt take more than 1 hour for an experienced vw mechanic would it?

I have a feeling that the pressure plate may also be suspect. Does anyone have an idea of what this work should cost??

took me about 2-3hrs, unbolting everything, supporting lowering, tilting moving lowering, its a pain in the a$$ of a job to do, could make it easier and do a removeable rear apron... not sure on professional costings etc, but yeah its harder and more time consuming than you think

sounds about right.they have to put it all back together as well.....

it sounds reasonable to me for removal and installation of motor.. its a time consuming pain in the bum if you dont have the right tools etc....
do you have the ability to do it yourself??

Sounds pretty fair. If they quoted something like $400 I would think it was a bit high, as that is what you would pay for a more complicated remove and refit for something like a modern front wheel drive Japanese car.

Thanks for the replies guys.

hmmmm... Im starting to consider doing it myself.

If anyone has any advice or reccomendations about pressure plate and clutch fork issues i would appreciate it.

Thanks.

Hi Ash,
I am hoping mine is just the throw out bearing come loose (but I bet its the pressure plate & fork & bearing & possibly the clutch plate too)
I am in the process of having a go myself, I am hoping to be able to do the work with the engine removed but still under the slightly raised car, but we'll see.

The engine is ready to be unbolted except for these bloody lower fresh air pipes which wont budge. I don't think you have those on the 63.

Anyway I'll let you know what happens.
Ed

Thats cheap, Ypu wil lbe swearing n cursing if you have never done the job before

Cheeeeeeeep ditto to mr birchalls comment

Don't forget you ofetn have to pull off exhausts, have bolts that won't come out, tinware that is wrong, hoses that need to be cut to get off etc etc.

We quote people anything up to $350, usually comes in at around $250 unless it is a PITA like a KG where you need to pull exhaust off most of the time.

The other thing to remember is that when you pull an engine out and put it back the customer expects it to run better than it did before. For that reason we cost in a tune when we do it. You can bet your bottom dollar that if you don't they will complain that it doesn't run as well as it did etc etc.

I think $250 is very well priced

Nah... You SHOULD do it yourself...
After all, who knows the value of labour better than YOU...
Don't listen to these people trying to get you to spend your money on things you don't have to...
Jump in there and do the job...
How hard can it be....???




hehehehehehehehe.....
Please post some pics for us... We need a good laugh..
Dumb-arse...!!!!

a while ago just out of interest, i took my buggy down to the local "VW specialist" to see how much he'd charge to remove the engine to do the clutch. i said i'd remove the rear bar so he had totally free access to the engine. to that he said, the remove replace would be $400 alone plus whatever clutch bits and shop supplies, head gaskets, ect. ouch. this is for a buggy which only entails putting a jack under the motor, undoing the header and engine bolts, steadying the motor and wheeling it back... what a ripoff agent.

needless to say, i do all the work myslef, all my bits are mail order and then i use the saved $$ for beer. haha. 👍:thumb

I was quoted $225 plus parts to do rear main seal and flywheel o ring on our beetle. They quoted to remove gearbox, flywheel, change seal, reshim crank and assemble. Yep I could do it myself, however I don't have a hoist here, don't have my tools here and have never done shims before.

I can see how it can be attractive to get a mechanic to do the job.

Thanks a lot for all the helpful replies guys, its good to be able to call on everyones years of experience. It appears that i have underestimated what was involved.
Thanks again.

Nah... You SHOULD do it yourself...
After all, who knows the value of labour better than YOU...
Don't listen to these people trying to get you to spend your money on things you don't have to...
Jump in there and do the job...
How hard can it be....???




hehehehehehehehe.....
Please post some pics for us... We need a good laugh..
Dumb-arse...!!!!

OOH this is my first experience of the e-shit slinging that this forum is famous for. Thanks for the initiation. You are my hero.

ash logan wrote:OOH this is my first experience of the e-shit slinging that this forum is famous for.

I wouldnt like to think this forum is famous alone for e-taunting. It is famous for many good things, and forums in general have impersonal taunts happening.

I agree. Taunting is common to all forums. AVD on the whole has been very good to me, without it i wouldn't have the 63.

One of the reasons why i was sceptical about the $250 figure is because i know about how long the job would take and it didnt seem like $250 worth of time. But having thought about it and considering the comments of people on the forum i now have a greater understanding of the whole deal.

The other reason was looking to gain advice is becuase the mechanic that i took it to has just recently opened and i was trying to suss out wether he sounded like he deserved my money or not. I am well aware of the dramas and bullshit that can happen with some workshops and i do not want to give my business to someone that i am not confident with.

To my knowledge the car is stock apart from the adjusters in the front and the lowering in the rear. The engine is using a 1963 1200 case but the rego papers say its a 1495cc so im not sure about that. I assume the transmission is the stock 1963 part.

Have ago yourself, you can only f#%K it.

Have agao it's the only way to learn. Get a mate will 2 vw brain cells to lend a hand.

>Nah... You SHOULD do it yourself...
After all, who knows the value of labour better than YOU...
Don't listen to these people trying to get you to spend your money on things you don't have to...
Jump in there and do the job...
How hard can it be....???<


Have to agree with Volksrodder!! If you have a set of ramps and a small floor jack from Supercheap the removal/replace of the engine in a standard 63 beetle will total 1 hour. Surely you have a mate who will give you a steadying hand for a couple of beers. Therefore, $250 per hour seems a bit high and the clutch fork still has to be replaced!

Too long ago since pulling a 63 but from the top you have rear tinware, acc cable, gen wires and two 17 mm nuts. Don't wory, the engine can't fall out! Underneath you have the fuel line to pull, heater tubes and lower 17 mm nuts. No need to remove exhaust. Ok, you've spent 15 minutes and ready to remove engine. What's hard about that?

If we own these "old toys", why pay someone our hard earned cash for something that certainly isn't rocket science. And how old was I when I first did this...17 years old with less gear than quoted above. A pile of house bricks or a couple of blocks of wood from the woodheap with a couple of pieces of checker plate for ramps, a scaffold plank about 3.5m long and a 20 litre drum for a fulcrum.

Have a go and enjoy the rewards............ especially the $$ you still have in your pocket!!

What's changed in 40 years? Nothing other than maybe being "a grumpy YOUNG fitter and machinist" back then!!




[ Edited on 16/1/2006 by 1500S ]

Sure you can pull the engine out and put it back in in one hour if you go at it like a bull at a gate, but i assure you it will take much longer if you have never done it before. and then it isnt a two second job to change the clutch fork. Doing a job properly to a standard that customers wont have problems also takes longer than what many backyard heroes will tell you. $250 is perfectly reasonable.

Tightass VW owners piss me off, they excpect everything to be done at dirt cheap rates, because apparently every job on a vw can be done in under 1 hour, get real. Running a workshop is very expensive, and lets face it most (not all) people who work on there own cars in their backyard, their cars look and peform like theyve been worked on in their backyard!!

It may be poor management, but I know of one mechanic who has had a few people do a sob story and get their car without paying, and then never pay. What is with that, it is stealing!

I was going to say EPA approved waste removal costs. Old oil, old coolant, old rags, old filters, old parts washer spirit. I know mechanics charge for it usually, so they should.

Security, keeping up roadworthy inspector specs, depreciation, toilet paper, accountant/ BAS, laundry (overalls), coffee, tea, beer etc.

most mechanics charge about $65-75 an hour which is the recommended rate by the IAME( institute of auto motive engineers). ive seen a lot of what happens in workshops as i grew up in them and can say that mechanics especially one man work shops do it tough. i know my old man would quote what you have been given but would only charge what it took him as had been said in previous posts.

You forgot insurances, the lost time explaining to people why it costs what it does when you could be earning for the 20 minutes of unproductive time spent explaining, the cost of maintaining the hoist/s they are using, power, water, call costs ordering parts, the little things they fix up while doing the job (like loose fuel lines).... and on and on...

your girl dont like to be touched up by a greasy smelly mechanics hands as well so then you have to drink even more beer and thats getting expensive

your kombi didnt mind those hands david last valla :P

The way I read the original post is that the REMOVAL AND REPLACEMENT of the engine only is a charge of $250. At around even $80 per hour, thats a time of 3 hours just to do that! Then to remove a circlip, lever, lock bolt and arm and replace is an extra how much in time??!!

Some think that this secton of the forum is to help each other but it seems that some think that we must still take our machines to some "legitimate" mechanic with, in many cases, less experience and knowledge on VWs than some owners just because they own a business. We are aware that there are all of those overheads which make life more and more difficult but that is built into the charge of the 60-70 or so bucks per hour. If a mechanic has worked on my car for 2 hours but spent time on the phone, gone to the dunny a couple of times and chatted to someone walking past for a total of 20 minutes, THAT'S HIS PROBLEM. He has worked on my car for 1 hour 40 minutes and that is what I expext to be charged for! EPA with oil......tell me about it! I do work for a large organisation which has to dispose of lubricating oil as well as soluable oil and chemical coolants. Then there is all of the normal housekeeping safety issues etc which many small shops wouldn't know existed.

There aren't too many motor mechanics out there away from "the back yard" with much machinining knowledge and have to pass the work onto real machinists AND THEY WHINE IF CHARGED HALF WHAT THEY ARE CHARGING PER HOUR. The next time some young bloke with not much money but wants a case and heads bored for 1916, do I charge him the normal of around $100 per hour as I get for toolmaking and other specialised machining, or still do as normal and ask them to stand with me and see how it's done!!............................... JUST BECAUSE IT'S A VW AND WE WANT TO KEEP THEM ON THE ROAD AND HELP EACH OTHER!! If the mechanics want to know about cost, go and price a half decent lathe and mill along with the cutters and measuring equipment to make it work. AND then you do have to know how to use them and work to limits that mechanics only talk about but haven't a clue on how they are achieved.

Many of us DO have some idea of how long it takes to R and R a beetle engine and Type 3 for that matter (both swing axle and double joint) and if anyone charges more than say 1/2 hour for removal and around 3/4 hour to replace there is a good chance they don't know what they are dioing or ripping off the customer OR BOTH.

With that said, just have a go and learn about your vehicles and do the jobs that many are capable of and the knowledge gained will be invaluable in keeping it on the road.





[ Edited on 16/1/2006 by 1500S ]

Hi Ash,
Did my first engine pull today. It was intimidating but not difficult. Before doing it I was thinking its worth $250 to save me the fear of 1 damaging myself and 2 causing more problems and costs. But, now, I don't think I would pay a mechanic unless I needed the car urgently.

Regarding the symptoms I was having (you appeared to have the same). I am going to try and post a couple of pics

Hi

When I worked in VW shops it was about 1.5 to 2 hours to R&R a type 1 motor. If the car had dicky extractors, twin carbs, towbar etc it cost more and the cars were 20 years younger, so less chance that they were screwed up by previous mechanics. So at todays rates are around $80.00 an hour, thats still only $160.

I would call another VW shop for a quote.

By the way, the labour charges are supposed to cover insurance, consumables, rent, wages, profit etc.

Steve

First I saw the throwout bearing of its hangers and the spring clip thingies on the bottom of the bellhouse

Then noticed the clutch fork. One hook was missing, haven't found it yet. The other hook is fairly bent

The pressure plate. You can see a circular scoring that the clutch fork arms were obviously making. Probably when I over tightened the clutch cable.

When i was considering the costs of a mechanic (while staring at the raised rear end) , I had your $250 figure in mind, plus towing from home to mechanic plus whatever they charge for spares plus the labour for the job. I was guessing around $600.

Its not a walk in the park to drop the engine. I still have to do the repairs and reinstall it.

I hope my pics help with your diagnosis and good luck whichever way you go
Ed

so just to prove a point how long did it take you to get it out?

the list goes on

I have done lots of work on VWs and also used VW mechanics.

I think you need to decide how much time you have, and how good at working on mechanical things you are. With my last beetle, I always had the car serviced by a VW specialist. This was for a few reasons. A. the car was my daily transport and I couldn't afford to have it off the road. B. if something went wrong with the service then I had recall and mechanic had to fix it...which I knew they would because they are reliable and well established. C. there are a number of things I didn't have the time, tools or experience to do satisfactorilly.

With the buggy, I had more time to learn how to do things so I did a lot of the mechanical stuff. However, I still had my VW mechanic do a rear main seal for me, rebuild the gearbox and get the subie engine and gearbox mated correctly.

The plus of using a qualified experienced VW mechanic from my perspective is this. I now have two mate who are VW specialists. If I ever need to know something, I can ring or drop in for a chat and they give me the rundown. If I need a big job done on a gearbox/engine or something else complex, I have two mates who can do it...and do it well. In that situation, I'm glad to pay them to do what they do.

So in the end, Yes, going to the mechanic costs money, but there is a pay off for having him work on your car. Firstly, you get a well serviced car and secondly, you get a sounding board when you need advice.

BTW, I think $250 for an R&R of an engine is very reasonable.

Hi Pete, Dave. Things seemed to have now settled down with some meaningfull info. At least the guy now has some idea of what it really takes to remove the engine and NEXT time it'll be much easier. If, and it would be best, the cluch assembly needs replacing, he could now get the engine to someone to have a look at the flywheel seal etc. Sorry to the real mechanics for doing you out of $$$ but the money he has saved can purchase the bits needed to repair the clutch maybe from you. He just has to be careful that he doesn't bend the friction plate when getting the engine back in. Also, while the engine is away getting the bits done, he will have the time to replace the fork. Maybe he can afford doing it this way but the other way may put it out of reach.

As for qualified mechanics being the best ones to work on the mechanical parts of an engine, I would like to point out that MOST railway engines with large GM and ALCO diesels are only worked on by Fitter and Machinists. Thankfully I do fit into this category and many of the modified VW engines of the 60s from the Blacktown (the fellows from the old Lennox Motors) area had the parts machined at Eveleigh Loco Workshops! You'd be surprised what we got up to in those days and we all scratched each others backs. It didn't matter what trade we were from.

I actually passed my Ford to my local mechanic to replace the welsh plugs........... because the weather was too hot and the care factor was zero at the time, I had another vehicle as well as the Notch to get around AND I could offset the cost with machining work! However, the head gasket problem was done at home as I did have time and all of the machinery in my own workshop AND quite qualified to use it.

With that, if the Ford head fits on the mill, the VW ones certainly do as does the crankcase .................... anyone local in trouble give me a call.

Cheers for 2006 and roll on Valla!





[ Edited on 17/1/2006 by 1500S ]

I took 3 days
first day- wiring , plastic hoses, bits of tinware - about 2 hours of overrly meticulous documentation and carefulness.
second day - removed the little pipe stubs that connect the freshair hoses to the muffler, put back of car on stands, heater wires, accel cable and fuel hose plugging - 2 hours mostly on getting those pipes out cause they were stubborn
day 3 - the four nuts/bolt and dropping the engine - 1 hour with my wife as moral and physical support.

A lot of time was spent with hand on chin psyching up and wondering whether I was doing the right thing and rechecking the manuals over and over. I won't be wasting so much time next time. I'm guessing about 1 hour of careful work just to remove the engine.
It would have gone a lot quicker if I had someone who had done it before with me.
I dont know how long it will take me to put it back yet.

Ash- One thing that I learned is that the engine only just has clearance between rear apron and trans. Now I understand the fantastic idea of a removable rear apron.

I have had had good and bad experiences with mechanics. I would send this off to the shop if it were crankcase related or the gearbox, but I like to see whats going on and find the fault myself.

Edmond, good on you for having a go. Beats sitting with mind in neutral and watching TV. You can now take the other half out for dinner for all that moral support!!

1500S wrote:Edmond, good on you for having a go. Beats sitting with mind in neutral and watching TV. You can now take the other half out for dinner for all that moral support!!

i second that , i remember the first dub motor i helped pull out, we were 16 yrs old ,we labeled where all the wires went and used bricks and a board to get it up and down:thumb

Thanks for all the replies people. It is nice to see a range of opinions and experiences out there.

Having spoken to the mechanic again and after reading this thread i have decided to leave this one for the mechanic considering there are other issues that need sorting before rego. Knowing that the job will be done correctly and by someone with experience will give me the peace of mind i am after.

Special thanks to Edmond for posting up the pics and the time breakdown. It definelty helps put it all into perspective.

No worries Ash and hope it works out well. And thanks to others on the tech forum for support and kind words.