RESTORE NOT WAR come on all you hippy Kombi owning peacnics out there

Its" all about the price of oil", Billy Bragg has it right. Bush is out for , oil and revenge , he is a hillbilly fighting his family fued that W senior his daddy stated.,
I can only hope that when the crunch comes Johnny Howard turns out to be all hairy chested and no balls he can justify a reversal on his possition in that he has listened to popular opinion within his own country.
Can anyone include a peace Icon next to the beers and christmas tree on the topic post page?
Have your say this is a forum for free speach
RESTORE NOT WAR
Mitchell😎.

[ ajv: "edited" title to try to get original thread title back, no text changes ]

[Edited on 30-3-2003 by vanderaj]

It may be the case of son taking over from DAD, however do you think that 1 man can have the power to deploy so many troop and assets? Have a think about it! (Deploying stratigic assets like the US has is vetoed by their congress then their CGS staff (Chief of the generals staff) then troops are deployed.

Have a think back to to the mid 70's....Sadam was given all that technology by the US and UK to develop NBC weapons(Nuclear/Biological/Chemical) then by his own doing he decided to test it all out on the Kerds! (Approx 500,00 dead by UN estimates)
So if he has the ability and knowledge and the nurve to test these devices out on his own people.....do you think he could SELL/GIVE a little (5 to 50 litres) away to an orginasation with bad intentions!

It will be to late when a toxin is introduced into one of our wateways/aircon ducts in a major shopping centre/sporting venue!
Time will tell...............

The BALI bombing saw INNOCENT Australians die for what...........having a good time and being AUSTRALIAN.........friendly, helpful, loving, sporting beach bronzed and blond haired Aussies! Have a talk to some f the families that lost loved ones.......see what their reaction would be to not sorting this whole mess out.

Unfortunatly some more people will have to die to fix this mess up; however have a chat with any IRAQIE refugee and ask them why SADAM is a bad man............if you walk away without a lump in your throat.........I would be most suprised!

Cheers
Kombiluva

P.S. Terrorism: To envoke terror into people or populas to provoke fear!

....why not try the Lonely Planet Thorn Tree forum- you'll be among friends there!

So Billy Bragg thinks it's about oil?? ie in 1990, George B snr in total control of Kuwait & with nothing to stop him going all the way to Baghdad (thereby controlling about 30 to 40% of the worlds oil) tells the troops "Lets go home & have a beer boys there's no goddam bars in this country!" Then in 2002 he says "D'Oh!!! I forgot the oil. George jnr go get it!!!". Sheez gimme a break- we're not complete idiots.
And don't you just LOVE the French! ( apart from the 2CV, has anything good ever come out of that place?) I believe the current riddle doing the rounds is:
Q: How many Frenchmen does it take to defend Paris?
A: Nobody knows because they've never done it on their own!

George W;
Johny;
Tony;

sic 'em boys

Now, back to VWs

PS
Simon Crean, you've got nuthin!

Kombiluva

Quote " P.S. Terrorism: To envoke terror into people or populas to provoke fear!"

Well dont you think that this is exactly what the innocents of Bagdad are feeling from both sides? Why dont we try peace keepers do we need war ?it seems to me that the plan was war all along no matter how much the Iraqies cooperate.
And why should Australia feel so strongly about Iraq and ignore North Korea on our own doorsteps is it because they have no oil? and the US wants to revenge for September 11 ,which was a sin whichcannot be justified under any reasoning, but does in numbers pail when compared to civillian losses that have been suffered in countries from south America to east Asia in wars and actions which in nearly every case were sponsored , led or directly planned by the US ?

geodon
" try the Lonely Planet Thorn Tree forum- you'll be among friends there! "
I though I was here!

Anyway get ready for the refugees then you can show some conviction and pasion as well as responsibility for actions you support by welcoming them with open arms not loaded ones.
M😎.

i agree with you waltermitty but like geodon said this is not the forum for this sort of discussion. Many people hold their political beliefs dear, and this topic of war or no war is creating division among the community, and both sides seem to feel a good deal of animosity toward the other. I'm not saying you don't have the right to voice your opinion, indeed you do thats the great thing about a democracy, but I don't think we need that here.

Hell people might say because we like Volkswagens that we are Nazi lovers!
😀
While i agree with you lets keep politics to the politicians - at least on this forum.🙂

Liam

I think the Americans can deal with saddam them selves, I dont think we can add any more strength to their attack other than political support, Its not in our region, and I seem to remember when we asked the Americans to help with East Timor that J howard was told this very same thing, its in your area deal with it yourselves, all we got was a couple of admin support people. I would wager that the Timor situation was an act of Terrorism by the Indonesians, and I seem to remember, that some of our troops and the Australian people had threats aimed at them, I had not seen any threats aimed at Australia by saddam before we jumped on G bush's war wagon, it was because of Americas help that saddam got these weapons, let them clean it up!
Anybody remember Korea or Veitnam!

Chill out Guys /Girls .... Peace.... :jesus

interesting that the two type 3ers have similar opinions .

It seems that the most opinionated people are those against disscussion at all,
why so , there are no rules in this forum re subjects are there?
is the pro war lobby also pro censorship ??
Why suggest that talking politics is devisive surely if you have an opinion and wish to express it then why not I see people talking about all sorts on these pages from fords to kawasakis.
Surely the subject of eminent war and its direct threat to Australians and repercussions on our economy ie fuel prices are relevant issues for us all. Or should we pretend that nothing is happening.
I know I cant i have a 5 year old asking me what war is.
Yes Australians were killed in Bali that is deplorable, the bombing was undertaken by extremists. The thing is the extremes of all organisations throughout history have been dangerous, especially those conected to religion, the exteme muslem is a minority, the IRA is a minority all these groups and factions are not representitive of the whole.

This is a forum after all look that up in your dictionary.
Isnt democracy about including all points of view and especially sharing those points of view.
If anyone chooses to not express thier opinion then they have every right to do that also.
Anyway I reserve the right to continue trolling as long as the fist are bitting.
M😎.

[Edited on 16-3-2003 by waltermitty]

Walter is right - General Chit Chat is not just for VW topics. Please keep all non-VW stuff in this forum, and away from the other forums.

The only time any moderator or admins like myself may take action on a thread is if it has gotten completely out of hand and there's major name calling or similar.

That said, there's always places like the Democrats Yahoo Groups if you want to go an have a good argument! 🙂

Personally, I think war is the incorrect way to solve the Iraq situation, and there are far more pressing matters closer to home, like North Korea.

Andrew

Fact 1:
The US are the biggest terrorists the world has seen since the Roman empire.

Fact 2:
The US used their own people as guinee pigs when testing their nuclear and biological weapons in the US and I remember the same happening in OZ by the British.

Fact 3:
The kurds are fighting a civil war against the governments for their own land, check all the terrorist bombings in turkey.

Fact 4:
Saddam tried to kill GW Bushes daddy 🙁

Fact 5:
Afganistan is now being run by warlords, don't hear about that acountry much anymore do we?

Fact 5 (and the scariest one):
Iraq is only the beginning, the US will then want to start knocking off the other countries, North Korea, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen etc. All the countries that at present don't have a mcdonalds.

I think it is about time Australia beacame a neutral country as everytime we bomb another country we are killing relatives of someone living amongst us.

What we are seeing right now is the greatest smoke & mirrors act ever seen.

Somehow, Iraq has become the September bombers. Last year it was Afghanistan. Who will it be next year?

Then the Bali bombing.
With all due respect to anyone who knows a victim, an Indonesion set off a bomb IN Indonesia.
This, somehow is seen as an attack on Australia.
Had it been in Kings Cross, I'd agree.

This war, that I hear starts tomorrow, will be an unprovoked attack on a Muslim nation, & THAT is the bit that scares me.

If this does turn into the "holy war" that the fundamenalists want, no one or nowhere is safe.

The English haven,t won a terrorist war.
The Israeli's haven't won, the Yanks won't win & Deputy Ditto is inviting it here.

As for Australia becoming neutral........I think we'll be the 53rd state first.

Bugged , you forgot one,
- US is the only country to use Nukes against another country - Japan

I feel that this has the potential to turn into a Holy War too. It strikes me that Bush is hell bent on closing unfinished business with Iraq and getting into the history books.
A further worry is anti French and Euro sentiment that is being fueled in the US currently. I have been getting US email propoganda about the Euro Union and how bad it all is.

Iraq invaded KUWAIT which started the GULF War... the USA and the FREE World MUST Make them Pay - before they left KUWAIT- IRAQ set fire to Over One Hundred Oil Wells... spewing thick black Poluttion into OUR atmosphere and it probably the Major cause of the Depletion of the OZONE layer over the Pacific... It took approx 9 months to put the oil well fires out.. by the USA.. Now In Australia We must have police... Its the Same with the WORLD .. because there will Always be IDIOTS like Hitler and Idi Armin about who massacre thousands of innocent people in their own country... The USA was the Major Country to stop Communism spreading around the World... Now they must stop Terrorism from spreading around the world -- Do You know that at the end of the 2nd world war there were ONLY 24 Houses left in DARWIN .. More bombs were dropped on Darwin than on Pearl Harbour... So don't You think that the Atomic Bombs Had to be Dropped !!! or would You rather be speaking Japanese Now... if our families hadn't been tortured to death that is.... 😠😠

IRAQ will not stop its terrorism if limp wristed people let them carry on.... You have short memories... IRAQ INVADED KUWAIT - a peaceful nation- and set fire to over 100 oil wells... which the USA put out...

waltermitty wrote:Its" all about the price of oil", Billy Bragg has it right. Bush is out for , oil and revenge , he is a hillbilly fighting his family fued that W senior his daddy stated.,
I can only hope that when the crunch comes Johnny Howard turns out to be all hairy chested and no balls he can justify a reversal on his possition in that he has listened to popular opinion within his own country.
Can anyone include a peace Icon next to the beers and christmas tree on the topic post page?
Have your say this is a forum for free speach
RESTORE NOT WAR
Mitchell😎.

Lee I don't think implying that Walter is a dick head is going to help the situation at all...

Please refrain from making personal attacks.

i'm on the side of peace .
i really hope that this war doesn't happen, though to be honest i'm sure that it will, the most that i'm hoping for is that jonny will decide to pull the australian troops out (still i'm not holding my breath)
btw, i do think that this is as good a place as any to discuss this.
bugged and grey i agree with your comments about the joys of america's foreign policy/actions, but you forgot one point.
i'm sure you have heard of gulf war syndrome... caused by the use of depleated uranium wepons...
nobody talkes about the amount of DU left lying about after the gulf war, plus even more tellingly, the US went into kosivo to help the people there but in the process sprayed about and left behind TONS of DU warheads.... not exactly what you would do if you actually intended to help the people of a country.
so to sum up not only have they dropped nukes on another country but have sprayed tons of radioactive material over several different countries.
still i suppose that it means thay don't have to store thier nuke' waste in thier own country.
plus while you are tallying up the lovely things done by the US don't forget all the revolutionary forces and dictatorships supported, funded and trained by the US in the 70's, 80's, and (poss.) 90's.
all said and done i belive sadam is a very nasty man, but invasion isn't the right way to get rid of him.
oh well best stop now before i get carried away.
henry.
btw, how can the pro war people justify the death of innocent civilians in the name of "the war against terror".
oh one last fact more innocent civilians were killed by allied troops in afganistan than well killed in S11.

Its great to see that there is a variety of opinions here the important thing is that there is that we do have opinions and that we are free to express them here and wherever we wish. I would hate to think that we all agreed on such an important issue.
The way people/governments reach agreements is by discussing thier point of view and debating it in a ordered manner, when one party feels very strongly about his/her opinion then it is even more important thet he deals diplomaticaly with those that he dissagrees with so that differences can be resolved .
The US has totally ignored the rational disscusion route and has thumbed up the UN Security council by passing the legal and correct methods for controlling the situation.
If you do not agree with me please dont get personel show some intellegence and diplomacy and haveyour say here make a possitive contribution I respect you for doing so even if I dont agree or even think that you are wrong, personel attacks are the acts of weeklings glady the worst of what has been said to me on this issue has been done so in private in direct email (by someone who likes to ham it up) keep your acts of small mindednesss there dont present them here so that this intellegent debate may continue .
RESTORE NOT WAR

P>S> an interesting historical asside , when Kuwait was annexed fron IRAQ after the WWII Winston Churchill said "the secure future of oil reserves lies in thier variety " he meant that if the oil reserves of the world were held more countries then it would be easier and cheaper to obtain by those who didnt have it (or those who use a hugely dissproportionate amounts like the USA).
This was used as a justification of dividing IRAQ and creating Kuwait. He also knew that by land locking Iraq that they would be more dependant therefore beholding to the industrialised nations of the West.
The fact that this was the train of thought then suggests that it always has been "ALL ABOUT THE PRICE OF OIL". (If anyone can explain to me why Iraq was anexxed in the first place i would like to know.)
It is often overlooked that Iraq was attempting to regain its soverign territory when it invaded Kuwait.
Another asside, in 1968 the UN security Council issued several "SECURITY COUINCIL DIRECTIVES" dealing with issues in relation to its invasions of Egypt and Lebanon, these are the same instruments that were issued to Iraq before the last war and now before this one meanwhile the Isralis continue to ignore those issued against them with complete impunity, Why, ITS ALL ABOUT THE PRICE OF OIL, and who you know.
I do not in any way think that Sadam is a nice guy but I dont think he is connected to Sept 11 or that he is the only despot I just wish that these matters wrere dealt with in a consistant manner and in a cooperative way not by one arogant nation looking after its own self intrests.
Where will it stop?
Mitchell(not walter)😎.

[Edited on 17-3-2003 by waltermitty]

As tempting as it is to start up my own little ban wagon I will resist for reason all of my own. However a few points to consider:
- in the current world climate Iraq does effect us all and to say otherwise is to display a high level of ignorance.
- The only reason Sadam is giving any co-operation at all is because of the 250 000 odd troops sitting on his door step. If they were not there there would be no arms inspectors.
- It may well be all about oil, in which case France and Russia have more at stake then they would like to admit.
- Without USA support in East Timor the job would have been much harder than it was. They provided more $$$ worth of equipment and support then our Army sees in a year.
- The UN needs to have a good hard look at itself, what good are rules if no one listens.
- Diplomacy is great but the only reason we can all freely comment on issues such as this is because of war.

When Jonny askes George to send troops to help in East Timor he replied that it was out of his region of influence ..too far from home??? he sent no troops perhaps some money, now he is even further from home but has no hesitance , he has different priorities of course , I must ask what are we doing there and what advantage do we hope to gain ? and at what cost , we are risking much here not just the lives of Australian troops.
Mitchell(not walter)😎.

Silver thats right and most of that distruction was spent out in the name of Christianity ...the crusaids and catholisism.. missionaries ..
M😎:thumb.

Which is why I'm an athiest....😎

14yroldwith1963beetle wrote:admitting to have weapons



id also like to bring up the effect it will have on our soldiers
in vietnam they released Agent ORANGE and many other biological weapons and they were used on allied troops, that was 30 odd years ago what kind of chemicals have been developed since ??? just think about it

Bull Shit
Agent Orange was used to kill the Follage so they could see the enemy from the air. Its basically a weed killer it wasn't intended to harm humans.

Yes, agent orange is, or was, a defolient.

But the white powder in envelopes?

Military grade anthrax!!!!

What the f#ck is a military grade disease?????
& how do they know?

It DID harm humans though... defoliant (is that a word?) or not.


Jay

RESTORE NOT WAR

I know very well that it harmed humans I have seen the proof, and I'm not even going to enter a conversation on how I know first hand. But the 14 year old made it sound like it was used on Aussies and Yanks on purpose.

It was used by the Americans some of it was even sprayed by bare hands. So of course they got sick.

Waltermitty i certainly hope you weren't suggesting that i am pro war and and pro cencorship because i certainly AM NOT. It is our DUTY as citizens in a democracy to question our goverments lunatic policies, and we need the freedom to do so, otherwise we are all finished.I guess what i was getting at is i hope people can respect peoples difference of opinion and not get personal and abusive. I am resonably new to this forum and thought the subjects were for VW's only. Forgive my ignorance. And i think a peace symbol is a good idea to have in the icons.

Liam

[Edited on 17-3-2003 by T3Forme]

Sorry if I wasnt clear T3 Forme on the contrary I was applauding your point of view and Identifing with a fellow Type 3 owner or did i stuff up again and the T3 is for kombi not varient?.
Mitchell(not walter)😎.
RESTORE NOT WAR

Thats cool Adam.

Hey I bet your teachers at school are trying to scare you. When I went to Tech school in the Mid 80's, we were constantly told that the Russions were going to Nucleate us.

I'm not joking the whole school was just waiting for it to happen. I dont know why they did that.

P.S
I know Nucleate isn't a word.

Firstly, I think it IS about oil.

I also think that little Johnny is an idiot for getting us involved - the moment it starts, the North Koreans are going to walk all over us.

I am totally against Australia having anything to do with this war/military exercise or whatever they want to call it, unless there is a U.N. resolution to support it.

I'm also disgusted with little Johnny. Bush pats him on the head and says "Good boy, Jonny", and Howard is just about ready to give him a blowj**, regardless of what the voters think.😠

On a more positive note, I attended a Peace March in Traralgon last Friday that I was really impressed with; it was a real family event. Obviously a lot of people are against this war, because the rally was attended by a large variety of people, not just the feral hippies (like me) that I usually see at these kinds of events. :thumb

EXELLENT KRUIZIN-K great to know that there are still some genuine kombi owning peacnic hippies out there doin thier thang.
Is it true that all the old kombies were dented front and rear because you guys are /were always stoned?
Mitchell (not walter what a stupid email address) 😎.
RESTORE NOT WAR

I'm just hoping that the commandos are over there pegging out where the vws are so the SAM missiles miss them. Only reason they should be there. If it's anything like the yanks attempt to get Osama then the safest place for the vws would be with Sadam. volma1

Well, a big congratulations to Bush, Blair & Howard.
They've just done what no terrorist could possibly do.

They've made the United Nations redundant.

May our respective deity,s help us.

The reason bush snr didn’t go into bagdad and finish it off is because it is impossible to do without levelling the whole city. Urban warfare doesn’t work. Too many hiding spaces. You only have to look at places like Chechenya to see that. The might of the russians against the poor Chechen rebels and what can they do. Nothing.

I don’t know that this is about oil, or even terrorism. Its about consistency. US presidents like putting on the military uniform and playing army games. They like having their names in history books. Dubya is being greedy. He wants his in twice.

Who is to blame for Sept 11? US congress, not Hussein. They knew there were terrosists in the US. They knew they were being taught how to fly planes. They knew exactly who was going to do it. How else were they raiding houses within hours. They knew that US airport security was useless. There was a report given to congress showing how easy it was, long before it happened. They sat on their arses and did nothing. They might as well have flown the planes themselves. Same with Bali. They were knocking on doors the very same day.

Weapons of mass destruction! Axis of Evil! Coalition of the willing! Rogue States! It's all about buzz words. If terrorism is about spreading fear then the US is without doubt the leader of the craft. Its all propaganda bullshit. They are telling the world of Saddams links to Al Qaeda. Where are they getting that information from. Australian and US advisers are resigning because they don’t want to be part of the lies. The bullshit videos they show of bin ladin. Gimme a break. If they could get their hands on the tapes, surely they could follow the guy handing them over straight to the source. But no, he got away. Sounds just like a fishing story to me.

Ive seen a website listing details of nuclear tests carried out by all countries. It listed nth korea, china, USSR, france… heaps of them. The number of US tests equalled all the others added together. Was north korea threatening anyone when bush came out and declared them part of the axis of evil? No. In fact the opposite. They were beginning to let people go across the border to meet relatives they hadnt seen since the korean war. Now they are under threat from the US of course they will want to defend themselves.

When Iraq was supplied (by the US) with chemical/biological weapon information, what did they expect them to do with it? I guess its OK to use them in Iran. Hypocritical?

How many americans have been killed with Iraqi weapons? There's probably been more deaths in one US city in the last week. How many have been killed on continental US with US weapons by US civillians? Just recently there was a guy running around there killing a person a day. There has been no call to disarm US locals though has there.

I didn’t do history at school. I don’t think it matters since from what I've seen Australian history isnt part of the curriculum. What I think I know, is that the US did not enter WW2 to help anyone. They were neutral until they were attacked themselves. (pearl harbour and sinking of some boat by germany) The US and Britain tested their nuclear weapons on Australian soldiers not so much themselves. Britain dragged aussie soldiers to europe despite being under attack at home. From watching the movie I think it was the poms who landed the anzacs in the wrong place and forced them on suicide missions at gallipoli. I thought it was australian soldiers holding back japan in new guinea, borneo, singapore. I thought it was Australia who came to the worlds rescue at Tobruk. Kokoda? I thought they were Australians. When the bombing started in darwin there was a ceasefire pact drawn up to give the northern half of australia to japan. Our allies had no plans for saving us. To my knowledge there was nobody saving us, but us. I don’t think we owe america (or britain) anything.

This is from memory so may not be completely accurate. The armour on tanks is depleted uranium. Armour piercing missiles the same. Its harmless when sitting there but once subjected to impact gives off radiation. When the americans were losing the war to themselves under 'friendly fire' (I think there were something like 100 tanks lost) they were so desperate to keep the depleted uranium away from the enemy they were sending US troops to pick it up without any protection. Seems like the generals don’t give a damn about the soldiers. They are just war machines.

Judging by the number of US casualties in Gulf I and already in Gulf2 from friendly fire, hummer crashes, crashed helicopters etc, I don’t think I'd want the americans backing me up anyway. The propaganda shows them hitting a door knob with their missiles. Showing us how they never miss, how elite they are, yet they keep shooting themsleves. Gimme a break. The only reason they hit their targets is by sheer numbers. Sooner or later they will fluke one. Anyone see the patriot missiles effectiveness in Gulf1? Couldn’t miss could they. If you believe that then all that is needed is a circle of them around Iraq. The yanks can see everything going on from satelites. They apparently know where these "weapons of mass destruction" are. So just lock the satellite on there and they will no when to fire up the patriots, before saddam even presses a button.

Who is this idiot with the glasses I see on TV telling me the country is undecided about whether we should go to war? I am almost certain that nearly everyone has made up their mind. Personally I am anti war no matter what, but I could almost tolerate it with UN backing. I've never seen demonstrations this big, nationwide, for any cause. And they arent all made up of my radical, doped out, feral uni student friends. They are people of all backgrounds and ages. Yet most of us are still undecided? Yeah right.

The one thing that sickens me most of all is comments like, "there will be casualties, it’s the price of war", "they are soldiers that’s what they are trained to do". They maybe soldiers trained in warfare, and that’s very brave and honourable. But damned if I want to see them killed in defence of some other country. I bet you bush, blair, howard don’t have relatives going to war. I bet you they don’t have relatives living in iraq. But they do get to sit in their office half a world away wearing their commander in chief uniform. Thousands of people are about to die, beginning in the next few days I assume. Maybe earlier. I assume many more thousands of children are going to lose parents. But hey that’s OK. Hundreds of thousands of people are going to lose friends and relatives. But hey that’s OK. Its just a number on a soldiers dog tags to them. That’s OK. Damn that one is my brother. But it IS OK. It’s the price of oil… I mean war.

My Apoligies Walter.... its just that I get hot under the collar when I read that people think that the world will be a better place - "if no one wants to fight back against someone who started a fight- in this case- an invasion of a peaceful nation- Kuwait- by IRAQ led by Saddam.... Why IRAQ wasn't invaded during the gulf war has Me perplexed... the US won the war and let Saddam go free!!! The other thing is - People join the Armed forces in Free countries like Aust UK USA NZ Canada etc to use the weapons they are trained to use..

Apoligies to Walter and to Jay.... Lee

I would really like to SEE this TOPIC and all the entries DELETED from this FORUM otherwise a lot of people are going to get Mad at each other.... and that is NOT what this forum is about..... Firstly .. Apoligies to anyone I have insulted or annoyed.... Now will the Moderator please DELETE this TOPIC & all the posts ASAP... thank You

Kuwait was many years ago. A different war. He was punished for that. Iraqi people are still being punished for that today via the sanctions.

Even the american pulling the puppet strings (who's lawful election could be debated) hasnt used that as an excuse. yet. Americans preach freedom, liberty, truth, justice but all is not what it seems. Ask Mr Kennedy.

Whats wrong Lee? You demanding that the thread be removed now? BTW I dont get the speedo. Whats it about?

Lee your appology post, cheers mate no harm no malice, thanks.
Your remove tread post, well ????,
Can you change your stated "MOOD"

Amazer on ya!
Another kombi peacnic?

Mitchell(not walter ha)😎.
RESRORE NOT WAR

peace lovin, tree huggin, conspiracy theorist.

Lee,

no - I will not be deleting or locking this post.

Political speech is the only constitionally protected free speech we have. If people don't like what they wrote, they should edit their own posts.

If anyone doesn't like what others have written (and as long as it's not personal or defamotory attacks), there are heaps of other VW related threads in this board.

My only wish for this thread (and board) is for everyone to be polite to each other, and for people to argue constructively to put their points of view across...

Personally, I don't understand the pro-war (or more precisely the anti-anti-attack) end of the spectrum, but I treasure their ability to have their say.

Andrew

nicely put amazer.

i agree about the us congress comments but would add i think thier forign policy must have something to do with people being pissed off enough to go out and fund, plan and enact a terrorist attack.

plus while there will be lots of military casulties (i guess mostly iraqi) i think there will be far far more civilians in iraq more so from starvation etc than "collateral damage". (you've got to love that expression)

i agree with you chris...

the US are probably the worlds biggest "terrorists". Somehow I don't think invading Iraq will stop terrorism, as if it's even about terrorism. Look at how invading afganistan has stopped terrorism. Wasn't afganistan also run by "evil muslim fundamentalist dictators", look at the country now? Its in ruins and its in total chaos run by warlords, its no better than before.

I think it is foolish to think that invading Iraq will help the people by forcing a regeime change... what will most likely happen is that a puppet government will be setup (most likely a completely unstable governent that won't be any better than saddam) and they will govern to suit US interests, when they're done the US will get lost and the country will be in total turmoil again. Its happened many many times in history and it will happen again.

I hate all this propaganda bull shit about an axis of evil and stuff, its ridiculous that they think people are so stupid to swallow this shit. Just look at public opinion... what ever happened to a democracy?

It's not like i'm trying to portray saddam as a good guy, they're all dickheads.

btw this is cut from another site... its interesting

) Which is the only country in the world to have dropped bombs on over
twenty different countries since 1945?

2) Which is the only country to have used nuclear weapons?

3) Which country was responsible for a car bomb which killed 80 civilians in
Beirut in 1985, in a botched assassination attempt, thereby making it the
most lethal terrorist bombing in modern Middle East history?

4) Which country's illegal bombing of Libya in 1986 was described by the UN
Legal Committee as a "classic case" of terrorism?

5) Which country rejected the order of the International Court of Justice
(ICJ) to terminate its "unlawful use of force" against Nicaragua in 1986,
and then vetoed a UN Security Council resolution calling on all states to
observe international law?
6) Which country was accused by a UN-sponsored truth commission of providing
"direct and indirect support" for "acts of genocide" against the Mayan
Indians in Guatemala during the 1980s?

7) Which country unilaterally withdrew from the Anti-Ballistic Missile
(ABM) Treaty in December 2001?

8) Which country renounced the efforts to negotiate a verification
process for the Biological Weapons Convention and brought an international
conference on the matter to a halt in July 2001?

9) Which country prevented the United Nations from curbing the gun trade at
a small arms conference in July 2001?

10) Aside from Somalia, which is the only other country in the world to have
refused to ratify the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child?

11) Which is the only Western country which allows the death penalty to be
applied to children?

12) Which is the only G7 country to have refused to sign the 1997 Mine
Ban Treaty, forbidding the use of landmines?

13) Which is the only G7 country to have voted against the creation of
the International Criminal Court (ICC) in 1998?

14) Which was the only other country to join with Israel in opposing a
1987 General Assembly resolution condemning international terrorism?

15) Which country refuses to fully pay its debts to the United Nations
yet reserves its right to veto United Nations resolutions?

--> Answer to all 15 questions: The United States of America.

[Edited on 18-3-2003 by Che Castro]

There's alot of things about recent events that make me both angry and depressed, but none more than being shown how easily democracy is dissmissed when it stands in the way.

The U.S. have crusaded for democracy as a worldwide doctrine. Yet how easily they ignore the U.N., which is the most significant bastion of international democracy.

And don't get me started on how Howard has turned his back on the popular opinion of his own country.

Lets have a look at this in perspective!

First:
Regardles of US foreign policy, we (Australians) can't change their policy; nor can we change their stance on terrorism.

Secondly:
We live in a part of the world that has a ever increasing population, we (Australia) are a large nation with a small population. As is evident by our Defence force and the down sizing that has occured in the past 2 decades, we as a hole are unable to defend the country of ours......regardless of how great we think we all are! So that's where our relationship with the US comes into play.
Without their support, we could be witness to hostilities by neighbours to our north.

Thirdly:
We as a nation voted in the current government, if we don't like their decisions in ref to foreign policy, vote them out on the next election........however think about the implications that would/will come into play with a government that distances it's self from the US!

Last:
Quote," The good/welfare of many out weighs the good/welfare of a few!"

Regards
Kombiluva
(Shoot ferals)

How about free trade , yet another American soap box. Just so long as its all one way.

I feel a bit sorry for little Johnny, I beleive that trade access to the US is probably colouring his thinking on this issue and he has the best long term interest of this country at heart. But he's really just a pawn in all this and any trade favours will evaporate when the dust settles.

Lee can you use a smaller type it is like you are forcing yourself on us. I don't bother reading it.

Bush is not wanting to loose face here. Oil, yes, as always. Selling the US's latest defence technology is another, big dollars.

Who saw US troops sitting in a truck with their laptops on Foreign Correspondent a couple of weeks ago? They have developed a new innocent victim friendly bomb as well , so they need to show IT off to potential buyers. Hey, defence products are big sellers and the US has been one of the biggest supporters/suppliers of/in the industry. The US economy needs a boost.

Also USA ego's were hit badly on Sep 11 (hey it was an unbelievably bad thing) things need to be proven to evil doers.

No way do I support dictatorships or Sadam but nor do I support war on Iraq. As always many innocent lives will be lost :jesus

Peace not war, but how do we get all sides to stop needing to control other people or other countries? How do we get people to accept differences? How do we stop greed and need for world power?

One way or the other, we'll know by next week.
If Iraq has these weapons, common sense says they'll use them & the USA is vindicated.
If not, then it's been what most of the world believes it is.
A lie from begining to end to get the oil, & avenge daddy....😎

To all those who are for the war: Are you prepared to go to iraq yourself and fight? If not then how can you ask other people to go and do the killing for you?

Why is Australia involved? Well Australia and the USA are about to negotiate a free trade agreement.... Hang on John Howard wouldn't commit to a war and be resposible for the deaths of iraqi civilians for his own obscene political and economic agenda. Surley not. Well there was the "Children overboard" thing, but he didn't know! Nobody told him! B.S!
Anyway if governments can strike fear into their people, through war or anti terrorism kits etc, then people will be more worried about these things, instead of budget cuts to hospitals, workplace "reforms" (Read curtailing the rights and conditions of workers), and so on. Hence more control for the government. Read 1984! So while were worried about getting our arses blown off were not worrying about this stinking capitalist system we all live in! :cussing
Please excuse me while i wipe the rabid foam from my mouth. 😀


Gotcha waltermitty.:thumb

[Edited on 19-3-2003 by T3Forme]

Forget any other policy the government has ever made, they are all insignificant against this.

This has proven once & for all that this mob do not represent the people & our so called leader is nothing more than Bush's lap dog.

When the time comes I hope the people of this country remember that when it came to choosing between the will of the Australian people & America, THIS GOVERNMENT CHOSE AMERICA.

The whole government, Howard didn't do this on his own.

So I'm not the only one who is reminded of 1984, when watching the news. "Newspeak" "Doubletongues" George Orwell was right.

G'day T3Forme,
I am prepared to go to Iraqi?

Well mate, have been their before......not a nice place, the people are great, I have had the honour of doing a few stints in the Middle east with our defence force.

Get off your high horse, do your country a favour, sign on the dotted line, become a member of the ADF and you might get an appreciation of what sacrafices our Soldier, Sailors, and Airmen/women give up in the name of this country, so people who enjoy the freedom of this forum can voice their disaproval/aproval of the actions of their government/troops!


Kombiluva😠

[Edited on 20-3-2003 by kombiluva]

I have nothing but total respect for the young Australians in our ADF, well I also have concern that they may get killed fighting in a war that stinks of hypocrasey.
Even though I dont agree with Howard I cannot believe that he is doing this for votes or trade agreements. I thing he believes that this is the best action to take the fact that he is ignoring the antiwar sentiment within his own country bewilders me showing some moderation or even backing down seem beyond him Is he so proud?
If Sadam shows some real resistance and especially if the war develops into close combat for Bagdad streets then the returning body bags migh make him reconsider .I dont think that the American popular support will remain so strong if this happens ,they dont want another Vietnam and are used to wars withoutr US casualties,During Gulf war 1 less Americans were killed per capita than Americans at home .
Mitchell 😎.
RESTORE NOT WAR

I just hope that once all the bodies are dead and buried (and the people left behind are sad, bitter, homeless, maimed, starving, orphaned) we all stand around and do our best Gomer Pile impressions and say "well goooolly. wasnt that worth it." when the next terror attack happens.

If only Australia had the guts to stand up to the US bully tactics like NZ does. I was living in NZ when David Lange the PM gave the US the finger and told them to shove their nukes where the sun dont shine and ANZUS collapsed. They wouldnt let any nuclear armed ship into NZ waters. The US tried to scare them into it but it didnt work. At that time the NZ armed forces had state of the art sling shots I think. Probably still the same. Leadership with guts. Something we will never get.

I suppport the soldiers and wish them all the best. I hope they all come back without so much as a bit of gravel rash on the knees. But I will never support the reason they are being sent there.

Hopefully it will be all over soon and we will stop spending god knows how much money on it. Might even be able to get more hospitals and better roads. That is of course if we kill em all. Dont want to be spending more money on refugees do we.

Kombiluva i have nothing against the military or the soldiers, they are doing their job like anyone else, and deserve our respect.
You have been in the military and in that respect you are able to make an informed decision regarding sending soldiers to iraq. The point i am making is that the people who say offhand " Yeah go over there and kick their arses" and are not prepared to go themselves, or join the army, should be having a look at what they are asking others to do "for them".
ADF Australian defence force? This is defending Australia is it?
As to me joining i don't beleive that violence is a solution to problems, and i make a moral decision not to participate in such. I certainly am not having a go at the soldiers though. Don't have a go at me.

Fantastic discussion people, well done, it is gratifying to see such passionate and well thought arguements re such a difficult and important issue.

My view is simple, we have no right, we do not know the truth (and never will) and while Saddam may be a tyrant , Iraqis are not.

I am appreciative of the views displayed and most (note: most) of the points that people have brought up and the manner in which they have voiced their feeling and opinions.
As someone who is willing to go on the current deployment (its not a war yet), or to a region to our north if required, I would like to give my view on a few points that seem to bug me. (No pun intended as I am a type 1 VW'r)
Yes, I do believe that the US is bullying people around the world, so what. Do you honestly believe that it doesn't happen to a different scale everywhere? That they sat out other wars is proven false by history. In WW1 they saw things the way most Australians seem to be looking now, ie: Its not our war, its over there, thats why they took so long to join in. Possibly the memory of their own civil war was a little fresh to them to contemplate another war. In WW2 they supported GB thorugh vast (and I mean vast) supplies of war goods before Japan attacked them. Only then was FDR able to reply to Germanies declaration of war against them, because until then the US Govt did not want to get involved in another 'European war'. Yes they dropped atomic bombs on Japan. Mean to tell me that anyone else would not have? Yes, Japan was trying to communicate with the US at the time through Russia, but that was not communicated to anyone except the Russians at the time. (Remember Stalin? think he wanted to play fair?)
As for the last war, well the Coalition (yes the US was the biggest part, but there were other players) did not go into Iraq, as they followed the UN mandate to the letter. Remove Iragi forces from Kuwait. Not remove the cause of the whole thing.
Yes the US did support Saddam during previous years against Iran. They obviously believed that the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Guess they were wrong.
But Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Just like the use of Agent Orange. It was designed as a defoiliant, not a poison to humans. To blame people now for what was done then is the equivilant of blaming Universities for what came out of Berkely (sp?) in the 60's (LSD). I am not saying it was right to be used, but at the time it was the best available and they believed in what they were doing.
As for DU (depleted Uranium) that has been mentioned, it is not 'tons' of warheads. Yes it is a lot of rounds, but again at the time, it was seen as the best weapons available for use. Its problems were not found out until afterwards. And yes, I have been exposed to it. There are now stricter procedures on its use, and recovery.
and just as my soap box collapses,
I do not believe that we are in a 'unjust war'. But the best thing that people can do is voice their concerns properly, with respect to others, with correct non-emotive facts and most of all - Do not balme the defence force.
Penguin

O well my turn.
This time tomorrow we will know what is going to happen, and there is not a thing Jumping around and protesting can do to stop it.

The destiny of the World will be decided by a hand full of man.

My Brothers mate is over there and I hope
our returned service man if there is any, don't get treated like the Vietnam Vets.

Hi

I hope all our troops come home safetly.

If it wasnt for the help of US we would be speaking jap, the french (i spit in their general direction, mostly a bunch of Nazi colaborators) would be speaking german etc etc.

Without the friendship of the US our little pals to the Northwest might decide to pay us back for liberating east timor. The Kiwis talk tough but they have Australia between them and our pals to northwest. The world is not ideal and we need our allies to scare the bullies, maybe the US would not come to our aid, but do they know that.

I wonder if you could have this discussion in Iraq or many other parts of the Middle East, no wonder our diggers came back from WW2 talking about mad arabs.

Anyway lets talk about VWs.

1302Steve

Sport - Religion - Politics
:bounce The Three Monkeys. :bounce

Yeah..

"quote by Bronze....
sport- religion- politics.
The three monkeys"

Arent they one and the same thing??

Im not commenting on anything I know nothing about....
Sounds ignorant, but I dont believe the Western media (who are they run by) and I dont know the "world leaders" on a personal level.
Well, thats my cop out!

The Humanitarian Argumement is distinctly one sided.
The removal of a brutal dictator who will probably be a menace to world peace in the future & the establishment of democracy in Iraq WILL cost civilian lives but they wll NOT be targeted directly. No, this is no consolation to the victims, but read on. The ignoring of a brutal dictator WILL cost far, far more civilian lives & they WILL be targeted directly as in the past eg political prisoners, the Kurds in the North (approx 200,000), the Shia in the South (at least 100,000), the civilians of Iran and the civilians of Kuwait. And we would STILL have the dictator in control.

The Americans & NOT the Islamo-facists are the worst terrorists in the world???? America is probably the most democratic country in the world- the classic oxymoron!!! Yes they have made mistakes but I suggest proponents of this do an internet search for the Marshall Plan-1945 and the Berlin Blocade in '48 to get a bit of balance.

The refs to "1984" by George Orwell are appropriate. Orwell also wrote "Animal Farm"- remember Napoleon the Pig- the animal's leader who declared "Four legs=good; two legs=bad". T'would appear that has become:"pro-american=Bad, anti-American=Good.

And WHY has there been no comment about the French! If they had not declared their Veto in advance, there was a good chance there would have been a majority UN vote to kick Saddam out. Now (19/3) their Foreign Minister has declared that if Iraq uses chemical weapons in the coming conflict, they WILL commit troops! Diplomatic whores!!!

Anyway, it'll be over in less than a month-I look forward to the debate afterwards. If i'm wrong, I'll be the 1st to admit it. I suspect those with opposite views won't- as they have in the past: eg when American and other lives were on the line defending the muslims of Bosnia & Kosovo- the silence from the Left & the militant Islamists was deafening!

What about the French?

The French have refused to sanction any action until it was PROVEN these weapons exist.
To date this hasn't happened.

Our own legal system works the same way.
Innocence is presumed, GUILT MUST BE PROVEN.
We should all be happy it works that way.

Now, if Iraq uses one of these weapons, that is the proof the French have been asking for all along & they'll commit troops.

I can't see the problem with that.

When you sit back and read all the posts it is funny those who support the deployment to Iraq are willing to go and fight and as such prepared to die for what they believe.
Those who are against are just wanting to get back to the head in the sand mentality of it isn’t our fight and we shouldn't be here. I mean how many of those out there who object to this soon to be war have even been to one of these anti war marches to show their support and donate a small snippet of their time ?

I have some very good mates who are currently over in the sandy place and I think it is absolute bull shit that people in Australia , enjoying the freedom that exists because of people like these are not supporting them. We live in a democracy; our democratically elected PM has made the decision. No one likes a winger, the ref has blown his whistle so lets get on with the game.
I am all for debate but once the decision is made I think we should start supporting our team we owe them that much.

Heard of "the project for a new American century"if you haven't then you should definately find out about them and thier mission.

http://www.prospect.org/print-friendly/print/V14/4/dreyfuss-r.html

Very concerning, unless you think and American world government is a good idea,which I personaly think isn't.
Check out the names of the members,a virtual who's who of the Bush administration!
http://www.newamericancentury.org/



Steve

[Edited on 20-3-2003 by syncro]

Brad you sound a bit like Jack Nicholson
"THE TRUTH YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH"

I personally have attended the Sydney peace rally, took the whole family it was an enlightning and gratifying experience old people young , every peoples, overwhelming.
Apart from that my only anti war actions have been to debate it her and at work and with family and friends.
Thats about it but i do think that I have a genuine concern/intrest/investment with my actions .

Brad if your friends in the sandy place arnt drivin baja abd buggie up and down Australian beaches then I also respect what they are doing and fear for them as well. (ALL) Gods bless them.
Mitchell (not wm) 😎.
RESTORE NOT WAR

I havent been to this site in a while, some interesting points of view on this topic.
I thought i might join the band wagen and air my ramblings. Ive recently discharged from the ADF after just over 8 years (army and raaf) and i dont believe that 'signing up' for the ADF gives anyone moral high ground to debate this issue as someone has suggested.
My main personal beef is with the way our current gov. seems to keep asking so much from our ADF to push its own agendas when it spends less on the military by GDP than most western countries that do alot less.
Also my main concern isnt so much with the war,( even if it is illegal). Its with the aftermath and how the US decides to form a 'democracy' in Iraq. With the semi autonomous Kurds in the north being eyed off by the Turks, the Sunni muslem majority in the south calling for a new jihad and every other muslim group in the middle east getting some mileage out of this mess.
Another thing that annoyed me was the French/ Russian veto threat, this is the same France that sank the rainbow warrior, tested nuclear bombs in the pacific and with Russia has invested shit loads of money in oil in Iraq. No one seems to be asking the Iraquis if they dont mind being subject to an economic embargo for another 10 years or how ever long it takes for Saddam to drop dead and disarm.
And to be fair you cant help but be cynical of the US/UK's motives from the way they let the Iraqui revolt down after the last gulf war, and put saddam and his weapons there in the first place.
At the end of the day its all about oil, or more importantly the price of oil as determined by OPEC. If we dont like it we can stop driving our vw's, otherwise you could argue we are all in a way responsible and it would be hypocrtical for us to argue some moral high ground. It also seems as though you could argue on either point of view until the cows come home but i would rather the US held weapons of mass destruction then half of the other nutbar governments of the world. And on whatever side of the fence your on you cannot help but feel for the ADF members that are forced into an unpopular war. Keep driving to those protests folks!.
What was that old saying about opinions and arsholes
:P:vader

well i went today to a protest march.

It's not about weapons, there is another country that has been condemned the most times by the UN Security council and general assembly for its weapons of mass destruction which it manufactures, and it's not Iraq, its Israel. They also have a miliaristic aggresive leader, as well as an "army" who really are terrorists, they just use machines provided by their US buddies.

It's obviously not about weapons, its just stupid. The Iraqi people are only going to suffer, it can only add fuel to the fire of Extremist terrorists. The war is absolutely ridiculous.

SYNCRO STEVE
that link you left leads us to some very very scary stuff . I would not have given it any creedance if not for the people involved.
Mitchell RnW

Pangalactic,

At no time Have I stood on a soap box and preached what is right/wrong......

I have raised points of interest that it seems alot of people have overlooked. I do ask you to go over my post on this topic to correct me if I am wrong!

As I am also a tax payer and a registered voter; I to may have my say in ref to these events, however it may or may not be the view of the ADF or the government of the day........and putting over my opinion in this forum I choose to do so..........under one of my constitutional rights........"Freedom Of Speech"! (Does the Iraqi people have FOS?)

As I have personal insight into that part of the world, (Lived in a tent, not in a ship or living at the Hilton at Kuwait Airport in 1998 as per the RAAF last time!!)
I believe that I may have a little better insight into what, how, when, and why!

Cheers

PS I will now get down from my HIGH SOAP BOX...........

[Edited on 20-3-2003 by kombiluva]

Well it's on and happening:jesus I guess we knew it would but you live in hope.

I don't believe that any of the discussion has shown any disrespect for our troops, more about questioning the whole situation, is there a solid valid reason to declare war, and concern for the civilians that get caught up in these actions.

We do have a few ex military on the forum and it sounds like a couple who have done service overseas. I have no idea what it is like to be sent into a situation like this. I also feel for the families and wives of these troops, the saying goodbye and the seperation must be so hard. I hope they do all return safely.

Realisticly, there will be lives lost from all sides, there will be people who love them and will miss them. Others will be mamed, and as Adz said there are the children. These are all real people with real lives.

This is an unpopular war and one that will rewrite the books on warfare as the western allies are striking first. Saddam does need to be toppled, no doubt. Lets hope it happens, and fast, now that the bombs have started to drop.

Lets hope not too many crazy terrorist groups see this as an opportunity/reason to take they own action. This is a real threat and could happen anywhere, anytime, as we've seen.

Hey Peace rallies are good, you need them to bring a balance and to sustain discussion. People from all walks of life attend. Since September 11 rallies have brought about a great understanding or tolerance of ethnic communities within our own country for a lot of people. Hopefully we are lease ignorant.

We are lucky we are here and can restore

Yes, the ref has blown his whistle.
And the USA told him to shove it up his arse.
The UN is the ref, never Bush or Blair or Howard.

I object to this being called a war.
Embargos have starved Iraq for ten years, weapons inspectors have not found any weapons of mass destruction , but they've gone in anyway.
That's an invasion, not a war.

As for what it will do for the extremist fringe. Figure it out for yourself.
If half the "christian" world thinks this is unjustified, what do the moslems think??

For all the Arguments this Government & the US has used for the use of Force against the Iraqi Leadership, i am reminded of this quote.....

" Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of their
leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked,
and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to
danger. It works the same in any country"
-- Hermann Goering "

I'm no stranger to violence, violent situations or even acts of terrorism.
I was brought up in Manchester and one of my most vivid memeries of my childhood ( about 7 years old) was having a class at school on how to recognise letterbomds. It was the mid 70's when the IRA were at their most active, kids were losing hands from mail bombs.
Things like that do have an effect on you and generally I became quite a violent person.
By the age of 13 I had been violently mugged 3 times so I started learning Martial Arts. I went on to teach and won a bronze medal in the national full contact championships. By the age of 16 I had left school and lying about my age was working on the doors of some of the roughest pubs in Manchester.
I went on to own and run my own pubs in and around the NW of england as a result of which at various times I have been stabbed, shot at and had the sh1t kicked out of me countless times at one point I even had a contract put out on me!.
When argentina invaded the Falkands I believed (and still do ) in the action that England took and tried (Unsuccsefully) to join up and do my bit.
Years later when the gulf war mark 1 happened I also belived in and supported the action.
When the IRA set off the initial bomb that blew up the centre of Manchester (destroying the place I was married ) they had even sat down and thought about the routes the police would use to divert people away and had planted a secondary device in that direction fortunatley the people who were caught up in the second blast (Including my mum) only recieved minor injuries.

What amazes me is that if someone who has historically been as pro war and as anti-terrorism as me and who has been exposed to decades of terrorist activity can see that this situation we have been placed in is farcical then how the hell can "Normal" people not?

A quote I heard from Jonny H was "I wont be swayed by public opinion" - I find that horrifying.

Those of you that support this war need to think about Jonny George and Tony ignoring public opinion - Ignoring their own advisors to acheive their own agendas' - be it oil, ego or simply that when they were elected it was a close thing and the voting public love a good war. Even Stormin Normin the hero of Desert Storm has declared this as an unjust war.

I believe that (just one of the things) that makes our country great is the basic principle of Innocent until proven guilty.
The purpose of the UN has just been nullified.
Sept 11 had nothing to do with this war
Bali had nothin to do with this war
Iraq was virtually destroyed 12 years ago and is not capable of posing a serious threat to anyone - Which is probably why the US is so keen - after all if they picked on N Korea someone might shoot back.

This situation saddens me. I honestly thought that the thinking world had progressed pass this stage.

When we next see an aussie / english / american building blown up no doudt it will be described as an act of terrorism when in fact it will be an act of WAR and therefore justified .

Well thats about it from me - I've never before been ashamed of being english (Apart from the whole cricket thing) or of living in australia but if nothing else it has spurred me on to become a citizen so I can express myself to Johnny in the fashion he has suggested.

Keep a lookout for me at the next peace demo - I'll be the one in the suit

Hitler had hirohito now bush has Howard - on with the invasion.

Heil Howard does have a bit of a ring to it.

and to quote Lennon "Give peace a chance"

[Edited on 20-3-2003 by fatboy]

Hey Steve, I'll meet up

Vee Dubbers for Peace:sandrine

Maybe I'm just getting old; but some people seem to be a little naive. I am as opposed to going to war as anyone: I had to put down The Australian today as tears formed in my eye, reading of the war, and I am currently reading "We were soldiers once, and young" - a very graphic account of the (real) Vietnam War. But the decision has been made; by people with a heck of a lot more information on the real situation, and I feel it is time for Aussies to stop being a pack of whingers and start thinking about the brave men who are trying to fight for what we [supposedly] believe in. I, myself, will be praying for a minimal loss of life and property (especially for the innocent of any race or creed,) not indulging in meaningless protests where they don't belong.

If any of you are whingeing Aussies (it seems we stole that title from the poms,) continue to whinge, but will all real Aussies please stand up and believe in this great country of ours?

We are not denying the sacrifices made by our troops. They are in there doing their job as ordered, some willingly and others questioning from what I can gather from what we are fed via the media or word of mouth.

My father served through the entirity of WW 2, from the Middle East in Tobruk, onto New Guinea and the Pacific. He faught in a war that he felt had to be faught, he questioned Vietnam as most people did in the end.

Never did he or have I ever denied the bravery and sacrifices our troops make. I hope that they realise that most people think this same way. I have listen to old soldiers talk and watched them meet from childhood, I have nursed them and have great respect for them.

There are ethics in warfare, a code of war. Let's hope that we are honourable in warfare. The western allies have been first to attack. My father had great respect for Romel, an enemy, who he saw he faught within the code unlike the Gestapo. I was brought up on discussion, as have my children. It does not deny the honourability of anyone unless it is seen knowingly going out to harm others with out provication or full justification of actions.

What Saddam needs is a rebellion from within his own country, for the Iraqi people to bring his dictatorship down. Well, if from what we here about his money getting frozen then maybe he can't pay for his minders. Here's hoping.

The real threat is the terrorist groups who will use this war in their anti western rhetoric to gain support and justify their actions.

Let's hope that the money promised to the Iraqi people gets used as intended and gives them back the power to govern their own country, that they are productive, and that they do not become dependent on the US dollar as so many other countries do, such as in the Pacific where their cultures are eroding away. This is a very big issue.

This is not a simplictic debate, and one that non of us is taking lightly I'm sure.

Well i have to question a Prime minister & his Government when he says:

I will NOT be persuaded by public opinion!
(sounds like a Dictatorship to me)

Well Stupid me for thinking that the Government was there to act on the peoples behalf (apparently it is there to act on it's own interests)

The Iraq War is just one step in destabilizing the entire region so the US can implement it's own "friendly" Governments & secure it's Oil interests.

We pay a $1.05 a liter for petrol, the US pay AU $ .70c a Gallon!

Who is going to pay for this Basket case of a country (Iraq) when the war is over? us!:cussing

This is where the powers that be stuff with your mind.
Even if you don't support the war, you should support our troops???

That's hypochrosy.

The best I will do is hope that they come home in the same condition that they left in. Sooner rather than later.
But wish them luck with what they are doing? No, I can't do that.
Howard said: your beef is wth me, I sent the troops. They are following orders.
Bush said: I was following orders will not be a defence.
Or does that only apply to one side?

Then we have the two leaders that we, as Australians, are meant to have blind faith in.

Little Johnny.
A man who will not be swayed by popular opinion.
Not bad for a man who only got the job through popular opinion.

& G. I. George.
For those people with a short memory, this guy didn't even get outright elected.
He got the presidency through litigation.
A judge made him president, not the people.

Makes me wonder if this would be going down if the judge had made Dan Quale president.

:o
It was also Bush who said "If this is a Dictatorship, that's OK as long as i am the Head of it!":o

Exellent responses guys ,Its very heartening to think that so many people have responded in this thread and so articulately as well .
Its not so much what your point of view is more that you have one and are prepared to share it, that is very healthy.
Mitchell 😎.
RESTORE NOT WAR

amazer wrote:Judging by the number of US casualties in Gulf I and already in Gulf2 from friendly fire, hummer crashes, crashed helicopters etc...

OK so maybe pommies cant fly either. My count is 3 helicopters + 21 allies down with no involvement by iraq. If I was saddam i'd hide until the coalition of the willing eliminates itself.

all these weapons of mass destruction that saddam is hiding. why isnt he using them now? he's saving them for what?

I guess General Cosgrove wont be on Bush's xmas card list. The americans say aussie soldiers found W.O.M.D and he comes out and says "its a complete furphy" Got a laugh out of that one. An ally is killing the propaganda effort.

Watching Sat News early this evening and the reporter said words to the effect of "Despite what you have heard from official channels of no civilian impact I can confirm that there are in fact 207 civilian casulaties, Hopefully I will be travelling to Bagdad hospital later..."
At that point the plug was pulled and we returned to the studio.

So the deception and misinfo continues

I used to have great problems understanding how certain people get elected and how some decisions get made until a friend pointed out that half the population of any country are below average intelligence.
Think about it... an average is halfway between the lowest and the highest.. certainley explains a lot

Is it just me or does the Media seem to be too eager for the "Shock & Awe" aspect of the War......you could almost see them pleading for the "Big Show" while the rest of us want none of it....& i don't think it was because it was sensationalist news to report.....i think they are getting off on it!:o
While the Anti War demonstrations are given the back seat on the news.

W.O.M.D this is a very interesting situation....the Americans have to find some to justify this War.....But they can also Argue that they need to Disarm/Destroy them apon imediate discovery, even to the point of Destroying them in the containment facilities BEFORE the Iraqi's can use them!
A very interesting situation indeed!

W.O.M.D. i dont think that the Americans will have any problem finding Weapons Of Mass Destruction to justify thier"cause".
What I dont /we wont know is if the weapons they find were there before they Americans or they bring them with them.
Mitchell😎.
RESTORE NOT WAR.

Must admit I'm finding the terms used for this war a bit tasteless, very typical media hype. 'Shock & Awe', 'Awesome', 'Stunning'

Who has notice the fireworks effect in the new bombs so that it makes it all look a little nicer and more 'stunning' to watch maybe. Forget that there are people down there.

Give me the ABC news at least they do contain themselves a bit and use these catch words a lot less.

Very sad about that journo. Also about other lives lost🙁

Yes but the Term 'Shock & Awe' was The term those US Hitlerites came up with to scare the Sheite out of the Iraqi's, it's not a Media Term........Although they do love to use the term & see the effects of it.

As for the "Sparkling effects" of the Ordanance used i suspect it is more a by-product of either the Explosive filler,the casing of the Weapons or the internals.

Concider also what a Tomahawk is made up of...lots of internal electronics for guidance: Silicon,copper,solder,gold,magnesium etc, the payload,the outer casing & a Jet engine.

[Edited on 23-3-2003 by Kubel Rat]

Some questions you won't find in Trivial Pursuit...

01) Which is the only country in the world to have dropped bombs on over twenty different countries since 1945?

02) Which is the only country to have used nuclear weapons?

03) Which country was responsible for a car bomb which killed 80 civilians in Beirut in 1985, in a botched assassination attempt, thereby making it the most lethal terrorist bombing in modern Middle East history?

04) Which country's illegal bombing of Libya in 1986 was described by the UN Legal Committee as a "classic case" of terrorism?

05) Which country rejected the order of the International Court of Justice (ICJ) to terminate its "unlawful use of force" against Nicaragua in 1986, and then vetoed a UN Security Council resolution calling on all states to observe international law?

06) Which country was accused by a UN-sponsored truth commission of providing "direct and indirect support" for "acts of genocide" against the Mayan Indians in Guatemala during the 1980s?

07) Which country unilaterally withdrew from the Anti-Ballistic Missile (ABM) Treaty in December 2001?

08) Which country renounced the efforts to negotiate a verification process for the Biological Weapons Convention and brought an international conference on the matter to a halt in July 2001?

09) Which country prevented the United Nations from curbing the gun trade at a small arms conference in July 2001?

10) Aside from Somalia, which is the only other country in the world to have refused to ratify the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child?

11) Which is the only Western country which allows the death penalty to be applied to children?

12) Which is the only G7 country to have refused to sign the 1997 Mine Ban Treaty, forbidding the use of landmines?

13) Which is the only G7 country to have voted against the creation of the International Criminal Court (ICC) in 1998?

14) Which was the only other country to join with Israel in opposing a 1987 General Assembly resolution condemning international terrorism?

15) Which country refuses to fully pay its debts to the United Nations yet reserves its right to veto United Nations resolutions?

Answer to all 15 questions:
The United States of America.
The new moral dictators of the world??????

Jens I know what you mean its the goul aspect .
How sad that an Aussie Journo gets killed and the story in the Sydney Sunday papers is burried on page 7 and 5 .Poor bastard.
Mitchell😎.
RESTORE NOT WAR

Yeh, the report isn't making front page (not shocking and awesome enough maybe) He was an ABC camera man, but did front of camera stuff too. Some other journo's missing thought dead as well last I read. They take some very big risks as well and always have reporting on wars.

Must admit I can stomach the ABC news and The Age newspaper a bit more than commercial TV or the tabloids. Still not good news though. At least they are not sensationalising it as much, working on emotions etc. More ethical in their style of journalism.

Friendly fire is bad so soon.

Glad the Aussie plane didn't drop the bomb due to doubts about the target given. At least not blindly following orders and not thinking, it's shows some moral integrity.

S!!t it is becoming messy over there, you don't know what to believe🙁

Let's hope the doomsday predictions of Iraq using weapons of mass destruction do not eventuate. With the media and propaganda it is so hard to see through it all and know the reality.

People still travelling through YHA but they are a well a informed traveller and keep up to date not taking risks but still getting out there, not letting this stop their dreams and plans in any major way. It's good to be working there at present as these travellers are not caught up in the negatives we are getting flooded with from the media. They tend to be a little bit more savvy regarding other cultures and are keeping up to date with things. Most are doing the Europe thing or heading around the world via South America before they hit Europe.

One person today still set on Turkey but watching developements. Turkey will suffer economically if it does anything silly, tourism is a big thing over there for them, it is something that everyone can benefit from (well trying to think on the positive side of things. It is a great country)

Wow!

I have managed to indulge in a personal media ban (have Foxtel). I feel more informed from reading what 'real people' have to say here than what I could possibly hope to get from the media.

Keep it up guys and gals. Maybe start a new thread or two.

Oh by the way, this doesn't mean I don't care or don't have an opinion, I just like to listen and get more info. I will definitely be reading the books written about this in years to come. It seems it is not until later that a lot of the real info comes out.

Peter, you're not wrong there

'J Edgar Hoover - The Man and the Secrets' by Curt Gentry.

'Hidden Agendas', John Pilger

Well, a couple of light reads. Any others?

Hmmm, you do have to be careful of the sources. Can get into real conspiracy theory territory. Will we ever know the truth? Well learnt in Sociology there is no absolute truth, like searching for the end of the rainbow:alien

Just thinking about how hard it must be over there for our troops when there is so much debate going on and then the uncertainies in some areas. One minute you're hearing the Iraqis are welcoming the allies into a town, then you hear the same town is threating and agressive to the next group. Iraqi troops serendering or Iraqi troops booby trappped. Maybe it is less confusing over there and away from the media. I hope so.

Also glad I don't have Foxtel or Optus, and only watch the ABC or SBS news, more objective. Worked out in the garden until dark, nice.

True....being a shift worker there is nothing else on the box other than the War.....IMHO the Media Coverage for this event has to be the most Farcical reporting i have ever witnessed in my 35 yrs, They seem to find/hear or fabricate a "Rumor" & then every media station runs with the ball.....

I truly have to wonder what "Pressure" the Coalition Governments have exerted on the Media as ALL Media are definately pushing the (support this War)
Anti-War protests get all of 15 minutes coverage in 6 hours of reporting....12.00 am to 6.00am

Rat
I have avoided the coverage partly as i have two young daughters and also because we watch very little TV anyhow but from what i have seen it does seem that the media is suporting the war .
No suggestions as yet from the media that I have seen of Australias part in the inevitable relocation of refugees.
Good old Auntie is perhaps more grounded, thank goodness.
I read today that the opinion polls had swung to a majority support for the first time .Understandably, I suppose that now it has started that people have will tend to change thier possition or even come off the fence as a statement off support for out troops if for no other reason.
God bless them and return them safely to us.
MITCHELL 😎.
END THE WAR AND RESTORE

See if you can get a copy of todays Australian Financial Review. There were some very interesting articles in todays copy.
Probably some of the most balanced stuff I have read on this so far.

You are right about the TV media tho. They seen to be relishing all this stuff. Getting sick of seeing the same bits of battle played over and over. I spose its good for the ratings. Sad state of affairs

i agree with you jenz if saddam is to be removed it should be from the Iraqi people. I Don't think saying that is to "stick your head in the sand", as some have been saying, as any USA imposed government will in all likleyhood fail in the long run. If one country can force it's political system (whatever it is) on another where will it end? I'm sure we all believe that a democratic system is best, but does any other country have the right to overthrow governments/dictators? What the coalition is doing reminds me of the spaniards in the americas trying to convert the "Savages" (indigenous people) to christianity.

Anyway.......

[Edited on 25-3-2003 by T3Forme]

Not sure if the Iraqis will use chemical or biological weapons as then it will justify the invasion by the coalition. From their side they have also been pushing the point that they will treat POW's within the law of the Geneva convention. If they keep it up then we have been the aggressors and it negates the claim of the weapons of mass destruction threat.

Truly hope they don't get used or that anyone gets mistreated anyway.

It is a game of chess for sure.

What I find really infuriating is the way the media are covering the conflict. They are treating it like a reality TV show, or a pay-per-view event.
I can't think of anything more disturbing to put on television than live war footage.

Chemical weapons are abhorent.

The U.S. is again using projectiles made from depleted uranium. They used these same hardened projetiles in Gulf War Mark 1. To the long term detriment of the health of both Iraqis and U.S. servicemen and persistent damage to the environment where thosands of the warheads still leak their chemical and radioactive isotopes.

If Iraq were to use chemical weapons or the U.S. to use them on themselves (yes, they have done that before) and blame the Iraqis would it really be any different to the persistent use of what is undoubtedly a chemical/radiological weapon.

Matt.

*Maybe we should give them Holden Camiras instead of bombs and bullets... they'd be under the car all day everyday and out of everyone's hair!

"They are treating it like a reality TV "

Does that mean we can ring up and vote out Jonny H ?:thumb

T3Forme wrote:iWhat the coalition is doing reminds me of the spaniards in the americas trying to convert the "Savages" (indigenous people) to christianity.

Actually I dont know that anything has changed. Mormons and jehovas are still knocking on doors trying to convert me!

which is hardly as bad as what the english and their descendants were trying to do the australian "savages" from 1788 till the late 1960's early 1970's. Open government "white australia" policy that they were to actively be bred out of existance. But that is another political argument. maybe after the war...

[Edited on 26-3-2003 by amazer]

Funny how the US is concerned that the prisioners may not be treated properly,under the Geneva convention, tell that to Australian Robert Hicks the alledged El kida and the rest of the Afagnistan prisioners who the yanks have held and who not yet been charged.
Mitchell

Ok, i have been trying to hold off on saying this until now (so as not to offend any Yanks) but Bugger it!
The Yanks should be thanking the Iraqi's EVERYTIME they show a US Serviceman on TV, This NOW becomes Undeniable Proof that they are POW's & will be treated as such, They cannot be made to "disapear" ie taken to the nearest court yard & shot....Although the Families of the captured Service man are going through hell, Multiply that by 10 if you have absolutely no idea of the fate of your loved one! who is just listed as "MIA".
Have they forgotten Vietnam? the Yanks had a hell of a time getting the North to admit they had EVEN 1 prisoner until the North Vietnamese "Paraded" the US Servicemen through Ho Chi Ming City & released the footage.....ONLY then did the US have UNDENIABLE PROOF of the fate of their Serviemen, once this was accomplished their release was guarranteed at the cessation of hostilities......
BUT NOOOOOO Yanky Pride has to get in the WAY & all we hear is a constant droning of " It's against the Geneva Convention!"
Sometimes the Yanks are their own worst enemy!

[Edited on 26-3-2003 by Kubel Rat]

Seems to me that Iraqi TV is forcing coalition to be more honest.

Iraq says "We have POWS" US say "No you Dont" Iraq show POWs on TV

Iraq says "We shot down heli/plane" US say "No you didn't" Iraq shows it on TV

Of course then the US bombed the Ministry of Information and the TV station.

Makes you wonder about who is really playing the propaganda game to the media, and I for one am glad that Iraqi TV came back up as it does help to give a more balanced view.

US really come of as childish when they break the rules in Iraq (POWS on TV) AfganiCuba (Holding prisonors without trial Etc) and then complain about Iraq showing POWs on TV

yeah I'm sick of the war, the Iraqi TV isn't really any better, nor is any of the arab news. The CNN coverage is rubbish, anything on commercial TV in this country is pretty much rubbish. SBS is better though.

I think reality is what you believe it is

its interesting though that the americans only piped up about the geneva convention once they new some of their men were captured...

there was a lot going around about the way the americans treated or not treated the afganistan victims. there was a lot said about the miss treatment and punishment that was handed out.

it seems that there is always a law to abide by only when it suits the americans.

as for our PM, i really dont think he had much choice, but to agree with bush, as at the end of the day we are not a big country and therfore we have had to align ourselves with ONE bully in the play ground. un fortunately it has been the americans and if it wasn't them it would have been the brits and we would still have our troops there anyway.

love the opinions of all that have spoken. it is good to see that there are still a lot of people that actually think for themselves and to which form what seems an educated opinion. who saw the news last night with all the students protesting about the war. but when asked new little about the actual conflict and past history. i wonder what is being discussed in history at schools right now, and who's opinion it is based on.

Pity the demonstration got violent. Saw some of it on early morning TV and in paper.

If they had learnt about Ghandi then they may have learnt that it is more effective/powerful not to react back even if they where hit first (?) by police. A peace march should be that, peaceful, non violent.

The media will always focus on the violence, make it seem like the majority of the crowd when it may have been only a small pocket of people involved, it makes better news for them. Only caught snippets so really can't comment.

Know from marches I've attended that there is always the small group of people who are there for a fight and really have no idea about the issues. Just stay well clear of them.

yeah jen i think that was definitely the case... i watched today tonite and they were saying "SHAME on the protesters for being violent". All they showed was the violent schoolkids.

On the other had SBS news showed that as well as footage of peaceful protesters one of them said that it was only a minority of troublemakers that was responsible for the violence. It also showed people of middle eastern descent protesting peacefully. damn TT 😠

A real shame about the protest , probable the result of overzealous policing as well as a minority of demonstrators that were stupid.
Real shame about the over reaction of the media , even calls to ban street marches???? sounds like a dictatorship thing.
Is it just me or has the media really changed there tune now ? Really pushing the war now trhat popular opinion has gone that way ( some pols are showing more than 50% support now a coulple of days ago).
I think George Orwell called the media the Ministry of Information , (a front for propaganda) there are some frightning simillarities occuring.
Mitchell (not walter stupid choice of email address)😎.

Media is really pushing the war, not just you thinking it.

Imbedded media in military units is not good for this, very much controlled. There is debate as to whether it really is safer for the journalists being with these units.


Watched an incredibly detailed media briefing on ABC news late last night, by a US Army officer. Slide by slide of before and after shots of bomb targets showing the minimal damage the bombing is causing (can even be done to a building next to schools or hospitals with no impact on these non targets-?) Very much trying to reassure people that no innocent people are victim to these bombing raids, or at least there is no intention too. I had to watch most of it because I'd never seen such detail given before, really having to prove their actions on camera. With so much instance and constant coverage their every action has to be explained.

Think I need a break from it
:jesus

Isn't this what this topic is all about.

i've just created a thread in testing so it would be out of the way of general viewing. These are the pictures you wont see on TT or ACA. They are graphic.
http://www.aussieveedubbers.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=4760&page=1#pid34610

hahaha




[Edited on 28-3-2003 by HotRodMatt]

yeah they'll never show those photos in our media.

hehe funny hotrodmatt

waltermitty wrote:I think George Orwell called the media the Ministry of Information , (a front for propaganda) there are some frightning simillarities occuring.
Mitchell (not walter stupid choice of email address)😎.

No actually he called it the Ministry of Truth (MINITRUTH) ie Small Truth=Big Lies!
Now that is Scary!

I've been saying from day 1 that the Media is pushing (support the War)

Of coarse this whole war wouldn't even be an issue if the US would allow developement of Alternative Fuel Vehicles & the Growing of Hemp (for Fuel= Hempahol)
I see recently now that the US government has said NO to the Hydrogen Fuel Cell Cars as developed by Mercedes Benz....Why?? they state to produce the Hydrogen & Oxygen (by electrolasis) would be more eviromentally damaging than to produce Petrochemicals!
BS....BS....BS....I CAN'T STRESS THIS ENOUGH...BS...BS....BS:cussing

All I'm going to say is it make's me sick to see 10 year olds protesting here in Melbourne. Especially since they don't even know what there protesting about.

And try burning Iraqs flag over there in Iraq and see where it gets you.

F'N DEAD.

Shouldn't these protesters want the rest of the world to share the freedom that we enjoy here in Australia.
Instead of living under a Dictatorship.

You don't honestly think Iraq will have the sort of freedom we have do you??

Even if they get rid of Saddam, the law of Islam will keep them repressed.

Go and have a look at Kuwait's idea of democracy.
One family rules, no one else need apply.
Women cannot vote.
The "religious police" have more power than the civil police.

SOME DEMOCRACY!!!

"Shouldn't these protesters want the rest of the world to share the freedom that we enjoy here in Australia."

Its funny how ppl constantly use this argument to suppress peoples right to protest.

(Not aimed at you flyin it comes up all the time.)

If ppl believe in this argument then they should be happy that protests happen.

(But NOT silly children who dont think)

There are different kinds of democracy aren't there? The U.S has their bill of rights, which the government ignores often, and in Australia we have a Prime Minister who more or less says " I will decide what is best for Australia" Democracy? In the U.S they have a two party political system and both parties are almost indistinguishable. In Australia we have a two party PREFFERED system, so if you vote for the Democrats, or the Greens For example, you are still voting for Libs or ALP, who are virtually identical these days. Democracy? Yes we have freedom of speech to a certain extent. But we don't have freedom of our lives do we? The majority of us have to work to survive, whether we want to or not, and with each passing day, with this government, we are more and more at the mercy and whim of the bosses/corporations. can't get work? well look out because you are on the shit list! Poor or disadvantaged? Get stuffed no such thing as a free lunch in this town!
I am so saddened by the way this country is going. The way of the U.S. All the wealth in the hands of the few, made off the backs of everyone else. Thats capitalism folks!

Somehow i don't feel so free.

Liam

[Edited on 29-3-2003 by T3Forme]

AHHH, the Yank constitution:
That all citizens shall have the right to bear arms............But other countries are a different matter.

John Howards 1st move??
To disarm the people, after 1(ONE) fruit bat went birko in Port Arthur.

I did ask a young man on his way to a protest what he thought his stake was in all this.
He wasn't real sure. He was 15.
I told him WW2 lasted 6 years, & he was old enough to be drafted in 3.
Now he has a reason.

And if you think that is a bit far fetched, consider this; half the world is for, half against.

What more do you need?? 😎

[Edited on 29-3-2003 by Spook]

I must say I was pissed off at the way they took our guns. As if to say we were naughty little kid's who couldn't be trusted to play with them.

But I also believe a cruel Dictator like Sudan needs to be taken down.

number of british soldiers killed in iraq so far = 23

killed in helicopter crases = 14
killed in "friendly fire" = 5
killed by iraqis = 4

not a bad percentage huh.

Given, Saddam is a headbanger, the same as most leaders are headbangers.
But then, if the people want him removed, that's up to them.
Let's face it, the western media shows them all armed to the teeth, including kids.

This is all about removing the anti American leader & replacing him with a pro American leader.

If you think it will make one iota of difference to the Iraqi people, you are sadly mistaken.

Saddam didn't want a Peace of Kuwait when He Invaded the Country .... He wanted ALL of it... and now someone is going to get a PEACE of Him... I love Peace.... man.... Shot Baby Shoot... Sorry I know this has nothing to do about VWs.... but it seems anything is allowed on this forum... Just as Well We All Love VWs.... !! :o:thumb

[Edited on 30-3-2003 by vanderaj]

I know that as a moderator of other sections, I have no authority in General Chat, but as a member: Do you think it would be possible to keep all the war-related posts under the one thread? I see enough about the war everywhere else I go, I don't want to see it here too.

Amazer,
Mechanic failure-Helicopter crashes=14, considering the amount of airlifts involved, the enviroment that they are working in and the complexities of a modern Helicopter.......not bad, considering the UK lost 23 troops in the Faulklands when a SeaKing hit a flock of Albatrosses.

Friendly Fire=5. I will not go into the complexities of the modern battle field here in this forum, however 5 killed by friendly fire is a waste of life no matter which way you look at it.......it is however a risk that all commanders are aware of.

Killed by Iraqis=4. It could be said that they are just bad shots and need more time down at the rifle range!

Statistics.......you have to love them!

PS 78.58% of people that quote a statistic are wrong............

To the Moderator , I would like to See ALL Non VW Posts deleted... including Peace Protests... this is a VW Forum.. Not a PEACE or War Forum... as You said its on TV & everywhere else... 24 hrs a day... I did ask before to delete the "RESTORE NOT WAR" Postings ... but it wasn't done... So I can enter My Posts on this Subject.. which are Opposite to "Restore Not War" postings... Apoligies, but You have to be fair.. for One & All... Maybe starting Next Month - ONLY VW & Auto issues.. NO WAR or PEACE Postings.... If You check on My postings.. I haven't been on the forum lately, used to be daily... I do click on Most days but don't open or read any postings because that "Restore not War" drives Me Crazy.... OK - for ALL You PEACE LOVERS ... Charge them $2 a Litre for Petrol.... and see how they like it.... Seeing they think that OIL is the Major cause for the War against a Nation that invaded another PEACEFUL Nation (KUWAIT) .. these Extremists don't just go away.... they must be STOPPED.... At ANY COST.... (See how I See Red when I See stupid things written by "Peace not War" advocates)
I LOVE Air Cooled VWs but I hate to Read about "make Peace" -- Hitler made Peace with Countries then invaded them... Peace doesn't work... with EXTREMISTS... 😠😠😠😠😠😠:thumb:thumb:thumb:thumb

[Edited on 30-3-2003 by 68AutoBug]

Lee obviously wants to be part of this war, so if someone will give him a gun, I'll pay his air fare!!!!!!!!😎

This is an interesting "News" report on the terrorist destruction of the Death Star (As in Star Wars) its quite old and I dont know who wrote it but I found it quite entertaining (not sure if thats the right word?).

It was a bit long to post here but I have published it here

http://www.itsv.net/emperor.htm

Spook: 😀

Lee: Make up your mind!!!

Oh yeah, and Please stop shouting at us!!!!

You are a super moderator. You can moderate all forums.

Lee, I am not *deleting* any posts. The war threads do not outnumber the normal threads, and they are constrained to one or two. So basically, nothing is going to happen.

Andrew

Actually Andrew, there's three.

The "restore not war" thread, & here's the crunch;
Both the other two(this one inclusive) were started by the guy who is saying they shouldnt be here....😎

Lee Kuwait was annexed after WW2 from IRAQ it was IRAQ b4 then .Churchill justified the annexing by saying that creating another oil shareholder (Kuwait ) would make oil cheaper for the west.
Go on have an open mind read and learn there have been many considered and knowledgeble responses on the Restore thread both for and against. I am very heartened by the concern and response.
You know this free speach thing is actually a good thing it seperates us Aussies from the dictatorships and regimes that suppress it surely we should not become like Sadam himself and repress opinions that you I or any of us dissagree with?
By the way communism was not defeated by the Americans it killed itself.
Mitchell

[Edited on 30-3-2003 by waltermitty]

Andrew, I am aware that I CAN delete or edit the posts, but as General Chat is not 'my' section, I don't believe it's my place.

Also like you, I don't think the posts should be edited, free speech is essential. I'm only asking that Lee stop creating new posts and keep them under the original thread on this same topic rather than starting new threads and then asking for them to be deleted.

As far as I'm aware, Lee is able to delete his own posts anyway, right?

Lee, as Kol said please stop shouting.

If you are going to state something as a fact in these posts then please read up on the history of these events ands make sure that they are in some way factual.

No one is denying you your right to believe what you do. Do you believe that all Iraqis are extemists? We are so lucky here in Australia that we haven't had to live under a dictator. If we did have a leader like Saddam I am sure we would have people willing to follow just as some (not all) Iraqis do.

Scary psyc. research (Stanley Milgram's study of obedience) has shown that people will follow orders even if it is doing something they would not normally do, in this case the use of punishment (increase stength of electric shocks) on learning. In this experiment the people receiving the shocks were collaborators of the experimentor, the shocks were not real, but the subjects/administering shock did not know this and were in extreme conflict regarding orders but 2/3 carried out orders delivering the maximum level of 450 volts. The research results shocked researchers and sparked controversy and prompted a review of experimental ethics in psych as well as social research.

Milgram devised sophisticated methods of debriefing for subjects of further experiments.

Milgram was interested in why German soldiers during WWII obeyed the genocidal commands of their leaders. He concluded that people in general are astonishingly capable of blind, mindless obedience. The initial experience involved only male subjects but in a following experiment women showed the same level of obedience with 65% giving maximum electric shock of 450 volts. He also later did across age groups and cultural groups:jesus

We are brought up to respect authority and can be carried over to situations requiring obedience. There is also the situation of not necessarily respecting someone in authority but following orders due to fear of punishment.

Hopefully we can still show respect to those who earn respect ,whether they are in authority or not, and that we have the right to say no if we are being asked to do something that goes against our moral beliefs without fear of punishment.

This is a classic study. Food for thought:jesus:sandrine

All of these percentages are lives lost no matter how :jesus

When I lost my husband last year as the result of a sudden heart attack everyone said 'At least he didn't suffer', because it was quick and unexpected (died at work with no one there to help him). It is a shock to loose your partner and you go around in a very surreal/unreal world for some time after. Your life is never going to be the same again but it does get better in time and you do love again even though it can be a bit scary at first because you fear loosing someone again and feeling the pain.

OK we know people are going to die in war, lets hope that as few people as possible have to 'suffer'. I've nursed the dying but luckily we have the means to keep people as comfortable as possible if they are in pain, this is not always possible in war.

These are lives and not percentages.

America may not have killed communism but the same cannot be said for democracy! 😀

If you're going to give Lee a gun, I think you should give me one, too - but I'd rather keep mine for use on lawyers. I think we've got our best people over there (and I'd like to see them all come back alive.)

For anyone that hasnt read it, I thought i would post this link for the people that are obviously passiontate about this topic. Its a really comprehensive thread into this mess from someone who is there.
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=b795bcc6f732fd7f5be69f95b442e86f&threadid=172697&perpage=50&pagenumber=1

If ignorance is bliss we should be dancing in the streets.
Peace (of arse!)

[ note: Dopegoat can be (ahem) a mite bit offensive, so don't check out the rest of the site. Okay, so it's very offensive, most of the time ]

I think this thought might help to calm down this thread, or at least direct your anger towards me for a bit:

http://www.dopegoat.com/b2/imgs.php?action=list&imgid=621

hehehehe

Andrew

Okay, I'm going to merge all the threads.

Lee, stop creating them, as I'll simply merge the threads.

Andrew

Lee please stop creating new threads, and please stop shouting when you do post.

Also the talk of carrying or using a gun by any of us is offensive. There are people out there using them for legitimate reasons and I'm sure they do not get much pleasure out of having to use them. I know that was one thing my father (WWII) would never talk about. The only time he would talk about his rifle was jokingly telling us about rifle inspections etc. Any other type of talk would have been saved for meetings with his old mates, like a debriefing session. It is something that lives with them all their lives.

It was something to know these old men, they had an incredible bond. They looked out for each other. I'm sure the same type of friendships are being formed now by our troops. No one else can understand or share the experience, so hard for us to comprehend what it must be like.

Debate is good, arguments a waste of breath.

*sigh* andrew i didnt listen. I looked elsewhere on the site. there IS some naughty stuff on there. A lot of it i've seen before which may say something about my group of friends. But this I like! Just wait till Osama drops over, then the party really gets started. Is it just me or is there an amazing amount of pictures out there with a very stupid look on George Jnr's face?

In case you've never noticed Chris, ol GI George aint the brightest looking man at the best of times.......😎

kombiluva wrote:Amazer,
Mechanic failure-Helicopter crashes=14, considering the amount of airlifts involved, the enviroment that they are working in and the complexities of a modern Helicopter.......not bad, considering the UK lost 23 troops in the Faulklands when a SeaKing hit a flock of Albatrosses.

Friendly Fire=5. I will not go into the complexities of the modern battle field here in this forum, however 5 killed by friendly fire is a waste of life no matter which way you look at it.......it is however a risk that all commanders are aware of.

Killed by Iraqis=4. It could be said that they are just bad shots and need more time down at the rifle range!

Statistics.......you have to love them!

PS 78.58% of people that quote a statistic are wrong............

They arent my statistics. They came out of some pommie's mouth. He was wearing a uniform and its not the sort of propaganda that would lift spirits so I believe it. Although he could possibly have played down the numbers a bit. maybe its more.

I would have thought that a sophisticated helicopter (and its not just one that has gone down) would be safer. This man is as close to the action as you can get and he doesnt think its so avoidable either http://au.news.yahoo.com/030331/19/rdvp.html. Maybe I am wrong. But I can pretty much be self assured that when the boys are sitting in the strategy planning room before a war, having more deaths due to their own incompetence than in battle is NOT part of the plan.

democracy my foot! it's only the rich who have any kind of say in America

Maybe we should put democracy to the test and have a vote on non VW threads on this forum, Providing it is one vote per member, this may calm some people down a tad. Is this possible?

Jenz that Psych studied you mentioned reminds me of another i saw a doco about (May have been the same guy). This one was 10 or so uni students in a mock prison setup 5 prisoners 5 guards. Basically what happened was the prisoners submitted to the guards and the guards went kind of power crazed. The experiment was called of when everyone went nutty, it was terrifying to see what "normal" people are capable of in a sealed situation. How simple for war crimes to be perpertrated.

I heard today our treasurer saying he would try to ensure that Australian companies got their share of rebuilding work after the war. This sickens me. While the killing is happening these greedy little bastards are rubbing their hands together, dreaming of new worlds to plunder, and if reports are to be believed, some US companies have already been awarded contracts!

$$$$$$$$$$ ALL KNEEL AND WORSHIP THE MONEY GOD! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Liam

Not the same guy

Here's 'The Stamford Prison Experiment'
http://www.prisonexp.org/index.html

It was about what happens to good people who are put into bad places.

The researcher was Philip Zimardo. Here's a piece he has written on terrorist alarms
http://www.zimbardo.com/terrorist.html

Well there certainly are a lot of mind games going on, I think more so than any war before. Unfortunately our troops are over there and in the coal face of it

:jesus

An interesting week all up I think.

Two carloads of women & children shot to hell........oops.

The British want an American pilot charged with manslaughter for dropping a bomb on their tank, killing one of it's crew.
Funnily enough, I thought if you went to war, you had a 50/50 chance of that happening anyway.

And quote of the year has got to go to Colin Powell.
"When we break the back of the Iraqi resistance, the Iraqi's will realise we come in peace"

So all the bombs they bought with them must actually be gifts.

How did that Star Trekking song go

We come in peace
Shoot to kill
Shoot to kill
Shoot to kill
We come in peace
Shoot to kill
Shoot to kill men.............:bounce

Go and get them

Get who? Iraqi civillians? Or just anything that moves like the Americans do?

[Edited on 6-4-2003 by Pat]

Need to check the details but there is a demo in melbourne on the 13th(?).

I will confirm and post it here

:thumb

I just think it's a nice photo.

All things aside you have to admit - it is an awsome pic.

(I've never seen ne1 land a plane backwards:o)

HEY COME BACK IT"S NOT OVER YET.

when those aircraft carriers do their hand brake turns , they certainly show a bit of body roll.
Now are we all saving up our pennies to donate to the food campains to feed all those civillians after the war ??

vanderaj wrote:Walter is right - General Chit Chat is not just for VW topics. Please keep all non-VW stuff in this forum, and away from the other forums.

The only time any moderator or admins like myself may take action on a thread is if it has gotten completely out of hand and there's major name calling or similar.

That said, there's always places like the Democrats Yahoo Groups if you want to go an have a good argument! 🙂

Personally, I think war is the incorrect way to solve the Iraq situation, and there are far more pressing matters closer to home, like North Korea.

Andrew

Lots of water under the bridge I guess