Hotdog008 - EJ20T Manx

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Ill let him explain these pics!!!!!!

but before it broke...............

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There's got to be some serious questions asked about these after-market hubs...... I know I won't be using them...two broken clean off in two months :cry

Illegally modified (welded) or cheap Brazilian type 3 hubs are the problem.

I think mine will be fine. 🙂



[ Edited on 09 February 2006 by MikeM ]

yep, after world war 3 all that will remain are those hubs. top work.

(custom made or off the shelf?)

Thats an impressive looking hub Mike, where did you get them from? And how much if you dont mind me asking?
Graham

How do you centre the disc on the hub. It should be from the centre as with the original Ford setup, or have you machined the inside of the disc to centre on the outside of the hub.

The Hubs were bought VForce on advice I recieved from COR.

To center the disc on the hub, the hub is machined to fit inside the disc.

[ Edited on 09 February 2006 by MikeM ]

I'm not sure of the origin of the hubs on Andy's Manx. They came with a conversion Kit he bought from COR about 5 years ago. Originally they had 5 stud Ford PCD but have been redrilled for 6 stud Land Cruiser.It would be interesting if they were from the same manufacturer as the one that broke at Stockton recently.I'm no metallurgist but the place where it broke, near the inner flange, looked pretty pourous to me.Luckily no injuries or major damage resulted. Andy has promised the replacements will be much stronger. It was a pity it happened on his first major excursion, prior to that incident it performed flawlessly.

Glenn

plough wrote:They came with a conversion Kit he bought from COR about 5 years ago.

COR changed ownership about 2 years ago. The previous owner was a bit hit and miss with quality towards the end of his ownership.

COR now stock and sell hubs like mine (see picture above) The hubs HotDog has fitted appear to be sherman hubs that may have been on-sold by COR.

And who redrilled the hubs to be 6 stud? If HotDog did that, then he may have created the weekspot himself. Welded or redrilled hubs are illegal.

[ Edited on 09 February 2006 by MikeM ]

My intent was not to cast aspersions on the current owners of COR, that was why I specified the time frame of when the Kit was originally bought. I was simply stating the facts as known to me and pointing out that this incident has happened twice in recent times. I have seen where the "other " one broke via a photo on the Buggy adventures site and Andrew's broke in a similar fashion. I am not aware who drilled his hubs for the Land cruiser PCD. It is a larger PCD than the Ford one and there were no cracks evident (to the naked eye). It did not break anywhere near either PCD but on the "inner shoulder" for want of a better description. The flange seems to have sheared off from the splined section.
Glenn

If they were Sherman hubs, I'm sure John Sherman would want to know about the weakness in the casting. You should call him if you find out they are.

There's a better photo of the damage here

http://buggyadventures.com.au/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=367&highlight=damn

Could this have come about from too small a radius being left after machining, it seems to me that the crack may have originated there on the hub. I'm a Machinist by trade and have seen shafts fail because of that very same problem.

[ Edited on 11-2-2006 by mackaymanx ]

plough wrote:They came with a conversion Kit he bought from COR about 5 years ago. Originally they had 5 stud Ford PCD but have been redrilled for 6 stud Land Cruiser.

If the hubs came from Custom Offroad and have failed as result of a manufacture he should send them back for an exchange set.

If the hubs have been drilled, welded or machined and this has caused them to fail then that is not the fault hubs.

I am very keen to see the hubs in the flesh so if someone can pass on his phone number I would like to give him a call.

g`day everyone
i `m pretty sure it`s not my fault from drilling out the hubs to 6 stud
it`s more the centre of the hub that tore out
i would not excpect an exchange as i have modified the hubs that i bought
i have standard 4 stud hubs and they look stronger(more webbing on the inside and thicker guts section)
i will mod these to make stronger and i`m confident of a fix
luckily for me my brother is a machinest too
a pretty easy fix and i`m still having fun
i`m always up for a buggy chat
mob. 0409612582 during day mon- fri

I checked out the pic at buggyadventures.

The lumpy surface is called brittle fracture. It has nothing to do with porosity of the casting. All it means is something have the hub a rather larger hit and it broke clean off. The is virtually no signs of beachmarking (where a fatigue crack grows in a slow ductile manner, before it finally fails in one single brittle break). When that means is there probably wasn't much of a crack to find before it went anyway.

The photo isn't the best, but they may be some beachmarks on the outboard edge near the axle nut. For it to do this you either would have needed to slide into something sideways, or be runng really negative offset rims.

Better pics would help.

Wes,
The photo you referred to is not from Andy's Manx, I think it is of the Buggy which broke at Stockton recently. The breaks, however, are remarkably similar. Andy did slide into a small earth embankment (about a metre high). The wheel assembly came off immediately after the impact. There were gourge marks on the road which continued till the vehicle stopped.

Glenn

I realised it was the stockton incident due to the sand in the photo.

My point is someone should be looking a little closer at these failures for the safety of everyone else running similar set-ups.

These incidents are part of the reason why the mod rules don't allow a change in track or big changing in tyre diameter, because both mods result in a significantly bigger load on the parts and more chance of failure.

my guess is power plays a big part to
a vw motor mightn`t have the power to screw the centre out of the hub when we add heavy 4wd tryes and rims
we put ej motors and v6 motors in then add big wheels with lots of grip and wieght and something gives(i thought it would be the g-box)
we just have to make sure we beef up each link in the chain
i also still think sum aftermarket hubs arn`t as strong as standard .someone somewhere said standard ones have proven themselfs in off road racing

Following on from what Wes has said the next obvious step is for "someone " to take "ownership" of trying to resolve the problem. Given that the two failures are similar it would be prudent if the original manufacturer or each of these hubs could be identiied. It may be that they both came from the same manufacturer.
Anyone with the appropriate resources willing to undertake this task?
Glenn

Andrew (Rat Bug) had driven around on the beach for around 40 mins to an hr on relativly flat surface when his just snapped.

looks like the 2 that have snapped of recent have both been running the subi engines.

the extra weight and power have anything to do with it?


Hey Rat Bug. Have you still got the old hub?

if the owners of the broken parts want to send them down to custom offroad, then Brad and I can have a good close look and I can give my professional opinion of what looks like happened.

I doubt the power had any real effect, the stresses due to the torsion in the hub (from power) are very low. Power will break a gearbox or snap and axle long before it tried to shear a hub off.

The weight could have some effect, as that's the main load. With a neutral offset rim all the weight of the vehicle goes through the web of the hub. With big negative or positive offset rims, the weight is to the side of the web, which cause bending stresses in the hub. Hitting anthing sideways will cause even bigger bending stresses and would be the highest load.

However the suby motors aren't that heavy. The weight on the hubs in a suby powered buggy will still be less than a stock engined baja I'd think. I just think most people running these hubs in a rear disc brake set-up are doing so because they have gone to a suby conversion.

Hey guys, Yeah mine was the one that broke at stockton.

Did a few jumps over dunes, all was good, then went for a leisurely cruise a few km's down the beach and it broke on the way back, on a dead flat stretch going 40km/h, the least place you'd expect it to finally fail.

I'm running 6.5" wide rims, offset can't quite remember but similar to vw.

I got the old hub somewhere, i'll dig it out and take some closeup pics if you want.

plough wrote:Following on from what Wes has said the next obvious step is for "someone " to take "ownership" of trying to resolve the problem. Given that the two failures are similar it would be prudent if the original manufacturer or each of these hubs could be identiied. It may be that they both came from the same manufacturer.
Anyone with the appropriate resources willing to undertake this task?
Glenn

as i see it the manurfacturer can not be held to blame as it is not being used in the way it was intended.
in a standard irs beetle , on the road , with 165r15 tyres on it and a 1600 twin port up its bum

terry

Na terry is right.
You can't blame the makers of the product because they are as terry says, not made for this type of use.

But if the problem is made know to the people who produce these hubs, then they may be able to put a warning on them saying not suitable for offroad use.
this would stop or reduce any further accidents from happening.
and people wasting their $$$$$

Just took some hi res photo's

Image1 (400kb)
Image2 (400kb)

I've just checked those pics, and it's quite obvious why they broke. Someone has taken either a stock hub (possibly a blank) or disc that has the 4 gussets out the back to suit a 4 stud stud pattern. They've then proceeded to machine those 4 large gussets off so they can redrill a different stub pattern and maybe even install wheel studs. Then at the front they have machined it too, to locate a disc.

So heaps of material is now missing. The machining has also left sharp corners, which are stress concentrations. This has made a very short path for failure to occur.

What you have to understand is by machining material away, making it half as thick doesn't make it half as strong. It ends up much weaker than that, because by reducing the widths you increase the bending stresses too. hard to explain.

But it looks like it cracked through with virtually no warning. I am guessing it cracked 90% of the way through during one of the jumps, and then broke the last little bit on the drive along the beach.

How those hubs are manufactured is dangerous. I might need pics to explain what I am on about.